This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.
25 Aug 1993: Myeni, Musa
Click here for more information on the Interviewee
Click here for Overview of the year
POM. What is the current situation regarding negotiations?
MM. Firstly, the messages that are coming out of the negotiations forum usually give rise to mixed feelings and reactions. Sometimes there is a sense of hopelessness and some other times you feel people are papering over too many cracks and asking the whole country to walk over those papered cracks and they are dangerous. I personally think that the process is a worthwhile process but the contents of the way some of the things are done there leaves much to be desired. The IFP, as you know, claims to be the father of negotiations in SA politics because from its inception it believed in negotiations and opposed all forms of violence and the armed struggle; that is why the ANC did not embrace the philosophy and the policies of the IFP because it refused to support the armed struggle and its perceptions.
. So what is my reading of the situation at the moment? It is that the country is walking on a very tight rope. Anything is possible. My main worry is that anything agreed upon by this multi-party negotiating forum will be thrown out of the window by the dominant party in the so-called elected Constitutional Assembly because the reasoning of some of the parties there, particularly the Communist Party/ANC alliance, is that that body is a not a legitimate body because it is not elected, not mandated by the electorate to draft a constitution. But, as you know, there are many contradictions in that. One, they are participating in it still even if they say it is not a legitimate body. When it suits them it is a good body, but when they want to justify why they should reject its decisions it is then referred to as an illegitimate body.
. Secondly there are decisions already taken, such as the April 27 election day, it is taken by a group of people who are at the same time said to be illegitimate. Then you wonder how an illegitimate organisation or forum can give back to a legitimate decision; so the elections, and the election date are equally illegitimate if the argument of illegitimacy holds. Therefore, I see a lot of landmines in the present process. As soon as people get elected and they feel that they are dominating the Constituent Assembly, they will turn around and say, we are the legitimate people elected by the electorate, we are the Constituent Assembly to draft a new constitution and we are not going to be bound by the decisions of a negotiating forum which was conceived in the days of apartheid. They will say so, that is how they are going to argue to reject any decisions of the present process. That is why the IFP then says, let us conclude the new constitution before elections so that whoever will be elected into power will have to govern according to the new constitution agreed upon by all parties because it is useless and dangerous to allow the winning party to draft a constitution by itself.
POM. I had reason to ask Dr Buthelezi if he was increasingly painting himself into a corner, out of which it would be very difficult to come, about what he had to say if elections were held on the 27th of April without a constitution, that he would not contest an election and that a constitution must be written before an election be held.
MM. Well, Dr Buthelezi has in the past said that politics is the art of the impossible and I want to believe that there are many organisations and individuals in South Africa who have similarly expressed certain firm positions but in one way or other you find them moving gracefully out of those positions. However, Dr Buthelezi is not the kind of a person who will speak just glibly and flippantly about things, he normally means what he says. In this particular case, I am not quite sure whether he was quoted fully, I saw him on television but I don't know whether the producer selected that particular portion just out of a much bigger context. My understanding based on our discussions at the last central committee meeting just a week ago was that a matter of this magnitude will be decided upon not just by the Central Committee but by the whole conference of delegates representing all structures and branches and affiliates of the Inkatha Freedom Party. He might express a view maybe based on current observations and maybe based on frustrations with the present system or process but he has already stated that it will not be his decision that will prevail. He might have that as an opinion because maybe one or two members in the hierarchy of the party feel that we may have to boycott that, but many, many members may have different, views. He will definitely solicit those views and finally a resolution of the whole conference will have to take a position.
. Personally, I think history is full of examples of parties boycotting elections and not effecting any change and then putting themselves out of the market place. I don't think the IFP wants to do that because SA, for instance, has a history of many people boycotting elections maybe for town councils but still councils get established by those who voted them. Many people have boycotted homeland elections and yet there are governments in the homelands, not everybody votes in those homeland governments because some people just rejected that, but nevertheless other people do vote and on the basis of those who vote, whoever gets the majority, forms the government. Therefore I believe, personally, that it will be dangerous for the IFP to stay out of the elections because elections will nonetheless go ahead and then a new government will come into power. The IFP would have to do that I think, in my view, and this is not an official view it is my personal view, that if anyone wants to do that one would really have to have an alternative. You'll have to say, I am not going to participate in these elections and whoever gets elected will not be accepted as a government upon me and therefore I am prepared to fight. But if you are not in a position to mobilise soldiers to fight, then you will find yourself having to accept the authority of those who shall have been elected, and they will be recognised internationally.
POM. Is there some substance that Dr Buthelezi threatened to pull the financial plug unless you get into line?
MM. Well, you have to appreciate that first of all Chief Buthelezi as a person does not depend on a salary from Pretoria, his salary comes from elsewhere because he sees it as a matter of principle he does not want to get paid by Pretoria. As a person, it won't affect him but the whole administration will be affected and Pretoria will have to explain why it doesn't do the same against Transkei, which has in fact killed many tourists, which in fact has hosted so many or has been used as a springboard for attacks against taxpayers in South Africa, and what will happen to the Natal or KwaZulu based taxpayers, and will Pretoria be prepared to really countenance or embrace whatever might ensue as a result of that and how do they effectively do it? So I don't think that kind of a tactic will work. It can only precipitate major confrontation. It will in fact galvanise Zulu support behind Chief Buthelezi. It will be one good mistake to make because Zulus will then say yes, we know that Mandela, the ANC group, is in fact in alliance with De Klerk and against Zulus. Zulus are being killed with the blessing of the media and people are not publishing all the facts about the massacres and about the conspiracy and the genocide and the ethnic cleansing targeted against Zulu people. Not much is being said about that, and so Zulus are already saying that Zulus are like the Jews in South Africa today.
POM. Do you think this whole issue is becoming one of the Zulu nation against the rest?
MM. Which issue?
POM. This whole issue. The problem of having a king out there speaking against the rest.
MM. Well, I wouldn't say against the rest, because what is the rest? The rest is not united, is not a homogenous entity. What are Zulus? Zulus also, although the majority of the Zulus are with the king and Dr Buthelezi, but there are those, shall we say, Zulus, formerly the king liked to call them traitors. I don't like to call them traitors, I only call them misguided Zulus who are not within the main fold as defined by us. And then we have allies outside the Zulu nation. We have many allies amongst whites who support Buthelezi and the Inkatha Freedom Party. They are not Zulus. We have many members who are of the IFP now, who are Tswanas, Xhosas, Sothos, and we also have allies amongst Tswanas and others Xhosas as you know in other groups. So you can't say Zulus are against the rest because who is the rest? The Volksfront? The Volksfront is not part of the rest. Bophuthatswana is not part of the rest and so forth, so, I wouldn't say that.
POM. It has been said to me that the king would call the Zulus to defend themselves, to protect the Zulu nation, he used the card that he could even draw Zulus who are currently members of the ANC, who would leave the ANC to back the Zulu nation if it came to a showdown between the ANC and the Zulu nation.
MM. Well, the king, of course, does enjoy a great deal of loyalty from his subjects right across the political spectrum, although some of the ANC spokespeople see the king as more allied to the IFP than to anybody, but we know that there are millions of Zulus who are neither ANC or IFP who are with the king and who would normally on election day vote for the IFP. If the king of course enters the poll, of course you will have to appreciate that no Zulu man proud and worthy of the name Zulu will go against the instructions of His Majesty. But the king, of course, is not in that frame of mind as far as I am concerned. He is not calling upon his subjects to kill anybody but, as you say, calling upon them to defend themselves. I mean that is a natural thing. They will defend themselves. It might not necessarily be to defend themselves against the ANC but it could be self defence against anyone.
POM. As your own personal belief, do you believe or think that the IFP will find a way to get back into the negotiations or that it won't?
MM. I don't know whether it is going to happen immediately, I think as negotiations continue, decisions have been taken, and if the IFP demands that such decisions be revisited, the other parties will refuse, and pre-conditions might be actioned if these other parties agree. Then it would seem to me that the IFP would just have to participate in the elections to spite their opposition, because personally, as I said earlier on, I would not like to confuse our support base by saying we are not going to participate because then people are going to fold their arms and sit down and say, why work hard if you are not going to participate and then we change at the end of the day and we say now we are going to participate. By then we would have lost a lot of potential supporters so I would definitely not support the idea of boycotting the elections personally and I will speak out. I know that our leader has promised to call a special conference and the issue will also be touched upon, I think, this weekend at the youth conference. So, depending on whether the IFP feels their demands are being addressed, it is possible that they will return and it is also possible that they will not return.
POM. What percentage of votes do you hope to hold in the IFP?
MM. About 30.
POM. That's very high?
MM. You know the SA elections are going to shock a lot of people. They are going to surprise a lot of people. One of my jobs is to quietly go around addressing audiences around the country and you will be amazed just how much support, quiet support, we have amongst blacks and whites who are saying, look, we don't necessarily have to pay membership fees, but when the day comes we know how to vote. At the moment we are intimidated, we are afraid, so we can't declare our loyalty, but come the voting day. So, we believe that in order to get 30% of the total votes, we must get about six million votes, and with our membership in excess of 2.3 million so we believe that six million votes is possible.
POM. Last year, the government and the IFP seemed be kind of aligned regarding the ANC, do you think this is still so?
MM. Well that question can be best answered by the government because it is the government which is moving, shifting positions. The IFP has always stood for what it still stands for. The government was pro-apartheid, the ANC was pro-armed struggle. Both parties have now come closer to the IFP's positions and now they both think that they will be better allies. The IFP, as the father of negotiations, is now being side-lined by these new converts who want to occupy the centre stage and both of them have got something which I think attract each other, if you can think of some kind of bond, in physics. I think there are forces that draw the two together. Both of them are corrupt. The SA government is known for its corruption, its operation, it breach of human rights. The ANC equally is known for its huge bureaucracy and corruption. It's known for breaking the human rights, it's violation of human rights; it's known for ill-treating prisoners and so forth and so forth, mismanagement of funds, so they are agreed behind scenes. They are natural allies because of these things. Apartheid and communism are, as one person said, they are two horses from the same stable.
POM. The National Party, there are all kinds of reports of it being fragmented, of divisions within it, that only one out of four people who voted for it in 1989 would vote for it today. Many people say it is on the verge of collapse they talk the same way about the government, that there is confusion within the government hawks and doves, that in a way no one really is in control. Do you share that assessment?
MM. Well, I think it is an appropriate question that you are asking because we also distinguish clearly between the government and the National Party, although the National Party is the government party. But what the government is doing does not enjoy support from its own membership, and for that reason a lot of their members are joining us, the IFP. And others are going to the Volksfront.
POM. So, what is the particular reason for the criticism?
MM. Oh yes criticism, is the marriage between De Klerk and the ANC, and also the government's attitude towards the IFP which is seen by National Party members as a Christian based organisation, believing in the free market economy and believing in true multi-party democracy. And then they are seeing the government as a sell-out government and if we held elections today amongst whites only, the National Party, the present government, will be ousted.
POM. Does the ANC not face similar problems on the back of many of its own problems?
MM. I wouldn't say so without concrete evidence before me. On the surface, people like to say so. This is why their youth wing is trying to be as militant as possible, I guess to keep them intact, but I think the ANC has got its own problems, they can answer their own questions regarding this. But as an outsider it is easy to observe that there is a rift between the ANC and the leadership, and Winnie Mandela and the youth as a whole on the other hand, so the youth and all the militants are together and they in my view constitute the majority of the ANC following. The labour force is in cahoots with the ANC that is under COSATU but it will not be for too long. I think that they have already pronounced on this issue that they will be allies and support the ANC only for the first elections and thereafter they will be on their own.
POM. The white right a year ago, after the referendum, was demoralized, it was divided, there was no cohesiveness, but now after a year they are much more together, there is cohesiveness.
MM. I think it is natural. With General Constand Viljoen taking up the leadership of the Volksfront I think it was a booster, a morale booster because of his standing as a distinguished soldier having been Chief of the South African Defence Force. And therefore he knows exactly how to organise defence. And so many whites who feel threatened, unsettled about their future, who feel deceived and terrified, it is natural for them to support someone who promises or appears to be well equipped to organise such people into a real defence force. So I want to believe that for the right wing it was a strategy to have General Viljoen to take over the leadership instead of having one person coming from, say, the CP, because the CP and the other right wing groups have failed to remain homogenous and united, but now you get a professional soldier who has served the country for many years so when they see him, they see a fortress.
POM. Do you think that there will be a link-up between Inkatha and the right wing?
MM. I wouldn't call it a link-up, but I want to say that when I look at the elections, the ANC is bad news. Either way you look at it. If they lose, they will take up arms and fight so there will be violence if they lose the elections and they don't form the next government. If they win there will be violence, firstly from the ANC itself exterminating its opposition, and secondly from armed forces, armed groups who will be rejecting a Marxist-inclined government of the ANC, so there will be violence whether they lose or they win, there will be violence. However if the next government were to be dominated by the Inkatha Freedom Party, the right wing groups would at least tolerate that. They would tolerate that. Secondly, I wouldn't say that there is a link-up but there is a good understanding between the two groups.
POM. Is it a case of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'?
MM. Well now, not in those terms, we don't seem to fight things like that. I think it is a question of commonly perceived external threats that the alternative is too ghastly, such as Marxist rule in this country, a unitary state, central planning and all of that, so that is seen as a common threat. We are not talking here of whose enemy because many more blacks have died in the hands of ANC trained cadres and Xhosa defence force members. As you have seen, some of the black policemen in Johannesburg marching under the banner of the Communist Party and the ANC, are also seen carrying slogans such as 'Kill the Boer, kill the farmer', and we have always been complaining that some black policemen in the Reef here are supporters of the ANC. They kill IFP people and nobody gets arrested. Now that has been explained because they are members of an affiliate of the ANC.
POM. When you look back to last June and you see where the government and the ANC were then in regard to negotiations that were on the table, and you look at what is on the table today, what concessions or compromises do you see the government having made, and what compromises and concessions have the ANC made?
MM. Well, lets say that question again will be best answered by the two groups. Your question is assuming that those are the two negotiators and I would say the question is based on an unfortunate disputable premise. You know that the two parties that you refer to, the government and the ANC, have been negotiating behind scenes to try and close gaps, to try and sell out, and so they have been trading behind scenes and what other parties are rejecting is the role that they are relegated to, that of rubber-stamping already agreed upon decisions between the ANC and the government. So there are quite a number of positions which the government has actually moved from and very little from the side of the ANC if you consider the original position of the ANC. So the ANC is getting what it has always demanded, an elected Constituent Assembly, a transitional government, or interim government, whether it is prefaced by a Transitional Executive Council and all that. But the bottom line, the bottom line for the ANC is that the constitution must be drawn up by up an elected Constituent Assembly. So the ANC is getting everything as enshrined in the Harare Declaration so they are still following the document to the letter.
. The government, confused as it is with weak new people like Roelf Meyer, I don't know what the ANC promised him, but they don't seem to have the coherent strategy of what it is that they want to achieve in the end. Not unless one wants to read into their actions a lot of wisdom. There is a lot of wisdom one can read into what they are doing, and particularly if one bases that on past performance of the Nationalist Party government of dishonesty, insincerity and dishonouring agreements. That applies to the ANC as well. So what I am interested in as the IFP, is that it mustn't be just a particular party winning, but we want to find the best for the country. South Africa must win, not the ANC, not the IFP, not the National Party, but South Africa as a whole.
POM. In terms of the negotiations so far, you would say that the ANC has out-negotiated the government?
MM. Very much, oh by far, oh by far. I don't think that the government can boast and say, look, that we have got this concession from the ANC on the other hand; the ANC can say yes, we've got this concession, that concession. The military wing of the ANC is still intact. The South African government is now talking of a joint peacekeeping force. That is where I think there has been slight softening of the line where it became impossible for the MK to be integrated into the present SA Defence Force. So as a compromise I think then they went for some kind of a so-called, wrongly so, non-partisan peacekeeping force, which is nonsense of course, MK commanders and MK soldiers, or whatever you want to call them, guerrillas, going into such a force. At what stage would they ever stop being MK and being loyal to the ANC? Every evening when they go home and on weekends and on leave when they go home, where do they go? Whose uniform do they wear? So that is nonsensical, absolutely nonsensical. This is why I have always believed that good politics implies a mixture of carrot and stick which means that in our context as you negotiate you must also keep a very good, well trained military structure and force, so that people should realise that you are negotiating not out of weakness but out of strength. And that if you say I will stop negotiating, then they must know what they are going to face. That's my position.
POM. The military here is certainly the best on the continent, the most experienced. Do you see a situation occur where violence in the townships increases as it feels that now it is gathering momentum. People that I talk to say that if there was settlement tomorrow it wouldn't stop.
MM. If there was settlement tomorrow the violence would continue. I mean there is so much animosity that elections will in fact be the fuel, or petrol, or the gasoline on the flames, because people are killing one another because they believe that they can reduce the opposition numbers. And secondly, whoever wins will be feared because whoever wins will be understood to have authority now to do as he wishes. So people will reject results. There will be pockets of violence where groups go in favour of one group in one area and favour of another in another area. And they will be fighting. This is why the IFP and the whole IFP in fact is reluctant to embrace the whole idea of elections, not actually reluctant, we reject elections for as long as the present levels of violence remain so high. We believe that the first task facing negotiators in this nation is to eliminate if not minimise the violence.
POM. What role are the organisations like the PAC playing? Are they to the left of the ANC? Are they waiting for an ANC led government to perform poorly? Surely there is no way at the moment.
MM. It doesn't follow that if the ANC government performs badly that the next party to take over would be the PAC. It really doesn't follow necessarily. The organisational fitness of the PAC leaves much to be desired. I think their role will continue to be there to offer more of a pressure group like AZAPO than a real political party capable of winning elections.
POM. You have quoted something like 30 percent of the polls nationally, why does this not show up in opinion polls where the polls I have seen generally have the IFP at coming in at about 10% nationally?
MM. First of all, you will be surprised, your polls are usually in some urban areas, we are talking in South Africa of a black population which is urbanised at about 48% and you are looking at about 52% non-urban blacks and these polls tend therefore to be located or confined to a few people in these urban areas and some of these urban areas are known, they are divided into pockets, some areas are pro-IFP, some areas are pro-ANC, it all depends where you do your polling. But now if you go to some rural areas where there are millions of black people, and this has surprised people from the Department of Home Affairs because of new applications for ID books coming from rural areas, people who are not in any government books, are unknown to the government books, and yet they are indigenous South African blacks. And these are people who are going to surprise many, many people and observers.
POM. This question of sufficient consensus. If a court case rules that the formula which was arrived at CODESA 2 is adequate, where does that leave the IFP?
MM. Well, it has got nothing to do with the IFP, that court action was taken by the KwaZulu government so it will be up to the KwaZulu government to decide what to do. If they want to appeal, they can appeal. If they want to accept the Supreme Court decision, they will have do so. But I can assure you that the judiciary in South Africa has lost its good name as an impartial judiciary. We have now experienced a lot of political interference in, as you know, some of the appeal cases involving wives of certain people, and also a number of other cases. We have seen the Goldstone Commission and we have seen who it favours.
POM. The Goldstone Commission?
MM. The Goldstone Commission, yes.
POM. I have talked to people like Abraham and Gertrude (Mzizi) who were on the front line. In fact a friend of mine came over from America, election experts, who met in Durban over two weeks ago with a group of your people, listening to her it is the Xhosa speaking people and the police who are murdering the Zulus. She talked to families who belonged to the ANC and they are equally determined to say it is the IFP and the police are who are murderers of the ANC. Both groups seemed to have a certain amount of passion, but they are ordinary people. How do you read it?
POM. No, we have evidence; we can produce corpses, we can produce leaders, a list of 300 leaders who have been assassinated without anybody getting arrested and you ask the police to investigate the same thing. And they know very well. Can you tell me that a country boasting of an efficient, competent police force can fail to arrest people who are responsible for killing 300 leaders? Having joined the march by those black policemen who are always in the townships explains the whole story. Some ANC people have been arrested in the past in police uniform and you wonder where they got this uniform from. They are carrying the police weapons. But now you understand where they get it from, from their comrades who are certain policemen who will swap uniforms with them.
POM. Do you believe there is a group out there, whether military or police or others, who don't want to see elections happen, a new constitution, a new South Africa come to bear?
MM. That's a smoke screen, I believe that there are also foreign intelligence agencies here. The old CIA is active, the British MI5, is active, Mossad is active, the Germans are active, almost every secret service, the KGB, although it is finished now, but it is still represented somehow. All these industrialised countries have got intelligence services operating. They can't allow SA to go unattended to. OK, so they have their nationals here, but they also have their own national interest. And we believe that they also have a secret hand in this. Some of them are financing this. And we know that. We also know that, yes, there are some elements in the security forces who are also paid to do the job. But what is important is to know who their boss is. And furthermore, I think the bulk of the violence comes from irresponsible, bloodthirsty leaders, particularly of the communist school of thought, who are operating day and night under cover. And here some Transkei soldiers have died, trained soldiers, yes you are talking of dead horses. You see we have an onslaught. The Zulus are being killed all over every day by trained ANC cadres fighting alongside Transkei trained soldiers and therefore you have to understand that innocent people are dying and no arrests are being made. You just tell me why it is that the government or police force can't arrest these killers. But the killers of those whites in the church in Cape Town, at least they found some guys already, but let them find the killers of black people, particularly Zulu people. They found the killer of Chris Hani within minutes. But let them find the killers of IFP leaders.
POM. What about the killing of Chris Hani, what impact do you think that has had (i) on the political alliance of the ANC, COSATU and the SACP, and (ii) in terms of the broader political process?
MM. Well, for me, for us, it was just one of those killings, and for them it was a good opportunity to maximise publicity out of the killing, that is for the ANC/Communist Party alliance. And they maximised it properly, the whole world saw the funeral and so forth. Communist church leaders went there to bury the boss of the communists as if he were a Christian. And they made statements that we wanted this. So, on the whole process, I think it was just a brief event, even the ANC has forgotten him.
POM. You see the ANC working alongside soldiers from the Transkei and trained, almost paramilitary, mercenaries; do you believe at all that the situation can be turned around so that what you have is self-defence units of gangs in the townships which the ANC cannot control any longer?
MM. I mean the ANC exploited the availability of unemployed thugs, playing dice and playing cards in the corners of those townships and they collected those guys and converted them into some kind of self defence units. And then those guys are uncontrollable. First of all, they are what they are because their parents could not control them and the ANC can't control them. Their own peer leaders can't control them. They are bosses unto themselves and they will always be managed to the ANC side.
POM. In the IFP are there warlords who are building their own operations, and are really running their own operations and are immune to discipline?
MM. First of all, we detest the word warlord because it is derogatory. If you take that man in Somalia, he is a General, but you guys, you Americans, you prefer to label him as a warlord and to call your own generals, Generals. The ANC out of their own perverse arrogance also prefer to call their military commanders, Commanders. And they called our own people who defend their communities and are community leaders, they are elected, they want to call them warlords. OK, that we know is a psychological kind of warfare and first of all we don't have anything called a warlord.
POM. What I am getting at is that in your situation you have –
MM. What we have are victims of violence who have come together. Groups that have brought themselves together for purposes of defending themselves. But there is nothing like an organisational structure along military structuring. Personally, as an individual really, I will say this now and again, I would have loved to have had that. If I had had the final word I would have established a military wing as far back as 1980 because I had a vision of the times to come which we are now experiencing. And I am still saying the violence that is going to take place in this country before and after and during and after the elections warrants that in fact we should be having our own but unfortunately I am not the one to decide on that. You can rest assured, that if I had the final word in the IFP, if I was in the position of my leader, I would definitely at 12 o' clock midday mobilise my army. At midday I would not hide. I would do it, I would not ask anybody, I would simply do it and let you people worry about that. It is not my worry. I'll simply do it. So it just shows you that you have an excellent Christian leader in Chief Buthelezi. Some of us younger followers of Chief Buthelezi are Christians but at the same time we don't believe that we must just pray, pray, pray. No, practical politics and history teaches me that when the history of this country is rewritten people will not pay attention to how many people were killed, they will pay attention to who won and who took over. That is what you read in history books, they don't care about how many people were killed, they were killed because they were easy to kill. I don't belong to that class of people, I belong to my own mind. I have my own mind and I am simply saying that it is a pity that the IFP does not have an army.
POM. What do you think is going to project ahead? If you speculate, what do you think is going to happen in the next year?
MM. Oh, just bloodshed and people will be leaving the country and people will try and convince others that there is hope in South Africa but many others will be told to go and there will be a settlement at the end of things. But I believe that the quiet group is going to be very strong and that the violence is going to enter another phase where it is going to be more complicated and very, very sad. I believe it really. One has got to be on the lookout. And if people can have other second homes, I think they should start having that and come back after the war.
. Thank you very much. I am not pessimistic, I am just a realist.