About this site

This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.

25 Oct 1995: Khoza, Themba

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POM     Let me begin with what's obvious, the allegations that have been made against you at the de Kock trial regarding both gun running and being an informer for the government.

TK     Last year when I talked to you we talked about it as well. You remember it is not a new thing. I think the ANC were trying to use it for political gain. I still can answer the question this way, that on the question of gun running I didn't. They know I didn't, but they simply want to defame me and also to get me out of the political race. Then the important point on the issue - but I have said to them that if they think I have committed any crime of that nature I am prepared to go to criminal court if I have committed a crime and answer that once and for all. My fear is that the ANC might not want to go to court quickly so that they keep this matter for political reasons so then they keep on referring to it each time because they know if we go to court I will prove them wrong once and for all.

     Then on the question of being an informer, I doubt if there is any person in the right sense of mind who can believe that the IFP in particular. IFP is so overt that there is no information that can be worth any dollar or a rand for that matter, so what IFP normally is doing is something that is public and therefore no-one can be an informer from the IFP, spying information and selling information to the government or to anybody. I mean there are no secrets within the IFP. Secondly, my position in this country placed me where I cannot have an ANC secrets information access, therefore nobody can therefore hire me or pay me as an informer to inform about the information or to spy on the ANC. I am not in a position to get that information. The same thing in vice-versa, I cannot be in a position to spy against government or anybody so clearly this is mud-slinging in a way, but it has got to come to an end. There are more serious things in the country that need to be done, things like building the country, creating jobs, frustrating the crimes in the country. We are worse than we were before, or we are worse than we are supposed to be and that is more serious than to waste time throwing mud on each other's face.

POM     Why do you think the ANC is particularly out to get you? You have always been a target of theirs over the years.

TK     I think the reason is simple, that I seem to be providing a tougher opposition for them and that threatens their deteriorating strength so they must amongst the IFP leaders single me out, particularly in the region where I lead, Gauteng. I am in a strategic position that if my leadership managed to secure for the IFP the victory in Gauteng where Johannesburg is, which is the window of the world, even if the IFP can only win two provinces, the KwaZulu/Natal province and Gauteng province, in the eyes of the world that will mean a totalisatory. I happen then to be a leader in Gauteng, then the ANC single me out and cut me down. But I must tell you I got annoyed when I heard this information, but they strengthened my resolve to work even harder for the IFP because I quickly said to myself, why because these guys have got so much, they themselves were accused by the De Klerk government in exile, in cross border raids some of them now who are in parliament were in fact informers for the South African government and when the relevant information was about to be revealed last year the Minister of Defence, Joe Modise, had to apply for a court interdict in order to stop that, saying that the information was going to crack down the government of national unity because two senior people were going to be exposed as informers.

POM     Which two?

TK     Did I say two? A number of people. No but I don't think I am at liberty at the moment to reveal their names. But then you remember the ANC government had to go to court to keep those names secret. That's it.

POM     Just on the human side, how has your life changed since you have gone to parliament?

TK     Maybe not since I have gone to parliament. You are asking me a question that I was asking myself this morning when I was just busy washing. I said to myself, I have just changed, drastically changed, my approach is more of a statesman than an activist. I am now keen to run the country than to defeat opposition because my primary target used to be defeat opposition, defeat National Party government, defeat ANC, mobilise and spearhead the IFP. That used to be my driving motto. But at the moment I seem to be thinking more of how to run the country, how to be a premier of Gauteng, how to be a Cabinet minister, how best can I use my ego, my enthusiasm to bring a better life for people, to turn Gauteng into another Taiwan. My thinking seems to be now shifted already.

     That does not mean to say there is now a line of division between the past and the present. I still carry that feeling that I should go on and build the IFP, but that now goes with a combination of building the IFP for the people not only to defeat the National Party and the ANC now but to produce. It appears as if, now that liberation has been secured, we have arrived at the roof top of the hate. Now we have got to start thinking what is it that we can do for the people and the party that might come out with a better option, particularly visible and implementable option, that is the party that the country should follow and the party that is more rooted in the community is the party that stands a better chance. Of course both the ANC and the IFP are better rooted in the community, by the large black community, not the National Party, but the National Party have got the better skills and expertise to run the country more than all of us but they don't have credibility.

POM     Do you still live where you used to live before or have you moved? You live in Cape Town now for part of the year while parliament is in session? And then you live here in Gauteng?

TK     I have secured a house, not in the same place where I used to live, but more than a house, it is far less than a house, I don't know why, because I spend much of my time where I used to be before, where I have grown up, and that one is almost used as a bedroom because when I am going to sleep,

POM     Where you grew up is?

TK     Soweto. Then I spend more time in Soweto than I do, but I am considering selling it. I don't know. I have spoken to a number of people. I think Soweto is not better but it's more home than other places, even in Cape Town I think Soweto is more home. I just get homesick when I am in Cape Town.

POM     Would you prefer parliament to be in Pretoria rather than in Cape Town?

TK     Tomorrow.

POM     Tomorrow.

TK     Maybe I will then like parliament but at the moment I am homesick all the time.

POM     Where is your other house?

TK     You remember my previous place used to be my parents' house, I used to stay with my grandparents, so it wasn't my house, so I have bought my house now and that is in town.

POM     In town, in?

TK     Kempton Park. But I don't think you will find me next year, you will find me still there next year when you come back for another round, but if you do you must then know I have improved, as life changes people so does the people.

POM     Sure. When you are in Cape Town in parliament do you get on well with your ANC colleagues?

TK     Some of them, particularly blacks, not some, many of them, particularly blacks, very well. Some of them we even drive together at night, go out together, dine and have coffee together. Let me put it this way, I do not know about their thinking but I personally think I have got - there are some friends of mine in the ANC who are stronger than other friends in the IFP. I do not know whether they regard me like that as well.

POM     What still accounts for the extraordinary animosity between supporters of the IFP and supporters of the ANC?

TK     I think the central position is the policies of the parties and the stupid, therefore, heritage, that is heritage of hatred, heritage of violence, but the central division are the policies. The IFP strongly believe that there should be an immense devolution of power to the ground. We believe in a bottom up approach and the ANC believes the opposite, the central power and minimum power on the ground. Maybe the provincial and local government to work as implementers of the policies and yet the IFP thinks that the central government is supposed to be the watch dog of the whole country, to see that right decisions are made by the people on the ground and are implemented and those that cannot be made and implemented by the provincial and local government should, of course, the IFP believe that they should be done by the central government. We believe in an extensive federal option and they believe in an extensive centralistic approach.

POM     This doesn't seem to be any way more close to resolution than it was.

POM     Matthews Phosa is?

TK     No, Eastern Cape. Raymond Mhlaba. He is also the National Chairman of the South African Communist Party and it is his region that deteriorates faster than all other regions.

POM     Deteriorates?

TK     Yes, degraded. You see it is those types which are factually driven that I am saying are unfolding slower, with a slower pace, if the pace was faster the ANC I can tell you by tomorrow would be out of power. I don't think that the ANC are stupid. I think now they realise that they cannot retain all the eggs in their hands, they have got to distribute some. They might do so without calling them federalism but who cares as long as they do it. It will be quite a pity if they take place after the whole country has either collapsed or is on the verge of collapsing. I think the pressure now from our side and others will be enough to force the ANC to do so, to change, and unfortunately it is human nature that there is pride, then they might not like to do it openly and clearly because of their pride. But there is another way of dealing with pride, you just simply stand up and say, "No, no, I think he was right, let me do what he was saying". Then you quickly get rid of the pride but I do not know if they have that expertise, skill and guts. At the end of the day I foresee our country within six years there is only one option, that is either the communist approach with central power or federal approach with provincial powers.

POM     Do you think the situation in KwaZulu/Natal is slowly getting out of hand in terms of the mounting political violence and the increasing polarisation between the IFP there and the ANC?

TK     I don't know whether it is getting out of hand. But I do know that it is not a conducive climate to build more industry, to create more jobs and create a situation, an environment friendly situation where people can live. I think it is not so. It is no mistake, the ANC deliberately do that and they are not happy that they won seven provinces. But seven provinces as they are, there are only three provinces in the country that are key provinces, that are economically viable, that can turn into Hong Kong or Taiwan if they were to be correctly led and directed and those are Gauteng which belongs to the ANC, KwaZulu/Natal which belongs to the IFP and Western Cape which belongs to the National Party. The rest of the regions really depends on these three provinces. You can easily say that we have more or less equal shares economically speaking but politically speaking they have got seven provinces and we have got one, but all the same I think the IFP, the presence of the IFP in the South African political arena provides a hope because we are still saying, hey, A, B, C, D is wrong and we provide alternates.

POM     Just again on KwaZulu/Natal, the IFP has pushed through it's constitutional proposals. There seem to be divisions within the IFP as to the best way forward in terms of formulating a constitution for the province and Dr Buthelezi himself has said that he is not prepared to preside over a divided party. What is the nature of those divisions and how serious are they?

TK     They might be serious but they are natural. For example, there are those who believe, like me, that we must try to get the constitution of the region quickly and if we don't have a constitution of the region, if we cannot have it on our own, let's look at the other parties. If they cannot support us the option of going for the early elections is fine because those are constitutional provisions. I am talking about the central constitution, the national government's constitution. It is provided in the constitution that you can use those options.

POM     That you can have a snap election?

TK     Snap elections in the region, so those are constitutionally correct options. But then there are people, other people say that, no, listen, let's keep on trying and that's fine, that's another option. That is a division of academics. Where on earth do they not differ on approach? It's natural I think. But then the situation now, the unfolding of the situation I talked about earlier on, is not going to wait for the undecided IFP. The IFP has got to decide quickly. If we decide that we lobby we must know and we must win that lobby. If that lobby is not going to win we must prepare for the next election quickly. We cannot be undecided on the issue or we will be caught napping by the unfolding situation. And our pace has also got to be quick in either direction, whether we go for a direction of lobby or a direction of election, but we've got to be quick.

POM     Do you think that you could have an election in KwaZulu/Natal, given the fact that the local elections have been postponed until next March, do you think that you could have a provincial election, again, that wouldn't have all the problems of the election that were there last year, that wouldn't involve an enormous amount of violence?

TK     We had elections last time under a more serious situation, under the situation of both violence and a state of emergency, we still had it. At the moment we don't have a state of emergency.

POM     But the IFP believes that the ANC stole a lot of votes.

TK     We don't believe, we know. If that was not the case, I am not sure whether I am exaggerating, but we would have gained more than 60%, even 70% because where we were strongest our votes were not counted, where we were winning like 96%, 80%, I am talking about the heart and the hard core of the Zulus further up north, because the further you go north the stronger the IFP was becoming, so the ANC cut it before it got too far. I did not, you know very well, want to accept the result personally but Buthelezi and the rest of the IFP leaders compromised and said we should accept it, then I was then alone. Of course I am not beaten where we are leaders because of collective approach. One then would consider again the fact we still can have elections even though the local ones are taking place later because the local ones, the problems were that there was this argument of boundaries, demarcation of boundaries. Other people did not want to fall into the urban, others wanted to fall into rural, others did not want to fall into townships, others wanted to fall into the tribes, those kind of things. Then we were caught napping. We, as ANC, IFP, National Party, all of us, we were caught up by the tides of time. So it was that. Secondly, then I am saying we can still have the elections because when we go for the provincial elections the whole region will be voting so that you don't have the problem of demarcations now. All you need is a voters' roll.

POM     You need a voters' roll?

TK     All you need is a voters' roll. You can increase, improve the various voters' rolls that we now have for the elections. So that's it.

POM     What if you were a betting man, what do you think is going to happen? Will it be a snap election or will there be ...?

TK     I don't know. I have missed a couple of IFP national meetings, leadership meetings. I have missed three already consecutively so I did not have an opportunity to gain all the information and the arguments and the points. But all the same I am not very strong about any of the two positions. I am on a line where I can easily be persuaded. Maybe the reason is because I am in Gauteng, I am out of KwaZulu, so whatever is good for them, whatever they decided as majority they will have my full support. Maybe that is the reason. We are talking about one region, we are not talking about the entire country because I also have got my baby in Gauteng, I have got to get Tokyo Sexwale, the Premier of Gauteng and his government, out, so that's where I am paying more of my strength.

POM     I want to contrast between two things. In KwaZulu/Natal there is a very strong element of Zulu nationalism and that applies to KwaZulu/Natal or the kingdom of KwaZulu or whatever, which in a way looks at the IFP as being a regional party concerned with a section of the population in one part of the country. And then you have the IFP as a national party which is trying to develop its base and its base of support among not just black people but also among white people. Are there contradictions between both parts? Does it make it more difficult to organise as a national party when so much attention nationally is given to the problem of KwaZulu and Zulu nationalism?

TK     I am not sure about that, I am not sure if that happens or if that creates a problem because IFP, KwaZulu/Natal, in the kingdom of KwaZulu I am more a Zulu than a party. Maybe I should put it this way, their political points are made and based largely, I am talking now about the real grassroots, I am not talking about the leadership, they are made and based and even their way of doing their political activities, it carries the connotation of Zulu culture. For example, whatever they will be doing they will have their traditional weapons in a rally, they will address each other on the lines of tradition or culture. For instance, Buthelezi being a member of the royal family will always be referred to as Umtwana, Prince, rather than President. But as he moves out of KwaZulu to Gauteng and beyond, other provinces of the IFP, he will be referred to as President, more President than a Prince. Don't you think it's natural that? I think it's natural. But then he doesn't stampede anything. There is this reality, I think all parties are supposed to be doing that.

     When I am in Transkei, I have been in Transkei for some time now, when I am addressing people there I address them and identify them with their own area. For example, I addressed three rallies in one place called Qamata, Qamata is the heart of the royal area of Xhosas, of the Western Tembuland, when I addressed them I always referred to them, other than colleagues, I said to them, Batembu, meaning Tembus because this culturally and naturally and biologically and anthropologically this is what they are, they are Tembus. And even they, themselves, in their own political meetings, they will refer to each other as Tembu as the Zulus on the other side refer to each other near the royal Zulu refer to each other as Navazid.

     So I think the real liberation in my country will be liberation where I am able to identify myself with my clan, my family and my tribe and everybody without the feeling of guilt or offence. Whosoever is trying to remove that is trying to remove a part of my freedom because this is what I am. I mean I am black, I can't be another colour, and I am African and I can't be anything else, and if somebody referred to me as an African young man to me that's fine, that's what I am and I will take it happily. But if somebody referred to me as a human being, just a person, I think he's just missing something because, yes, I know about that but I am actually, if you want my identity I am an African.

POM     When you were in Transkei did you find, most reports suggest that the ANC there are in considerable disarray with a lot of unhappiness and a movement towards establishing a tenth province.

TK     And they wanted to blame that on us.

POM     They wanted to blame that on the IFP?

TK     I was in the area where the tenth province was demanded but I have got no position myself on that. I don't know whether it is necessary or not necessary for a tenth province but now that the idea has not been sold to me I think we should remain with nine. But until the idea is sold to me then I will look at it differently. But I know the reasons behind it, not the actual idea. The reason is that the premier of the Eastern Cape, ANC premier Mr Mhlaba, is sitting, remember the place used to be two regions, it used to be Bisho and Umtata, Transkei and Ciskei, so this guy is sitting in Bisho and it's far from the people, he is not going down to people on the ground to speak to Xhosas and hear their problems. Bisho has got far less population than Umtata and if you want to have the rule of South Africa you had better base yourself in Johannesburg, that's where the majority of people of South Africa are, people of all regions within the country. And the same thing with the Eastern Cape province, when you talk about the bulk of the people of Eastern Cape they are based in Umtata. That is the biggest town, by all respects Umtata is the better one. It was given before anybody says anything that Umtata was going to be the headquarters of the region. Fortunately then Raymond Mhlaba is perceived by large, by the Eastern Cape people, to be anti-former Transkei people in favour of Ciskeians and again Mhlaba did not grow up the same way an African man would. He grew up in an urban township, he does not know the life of the rural people. Eastern Cape is more rural than urban and a large bulk of people do not identify themselves with him even though some of them are ANC. When he was in power then they expected that he would come down and see how they do and I think it has been an ANC problem that Mr Mhlaba was not accessible to the people of the Eastern Cape. The presence of the IFP, I think, is a solution now to the people of the Eastern Cape. Whether the cross-over to the IFP or not the fact that Themba Khoza and others, IFP leaders, are now establishing structures in the Eastern Cape then that will force the ANC to come down to the people to try to - in the process where they will be trying to get the people to remain on their side. Eventually the question of them not being accessible will then be removed because they will come down to the people. So that's the best thing about multi-democracy.

POM     Are you running into difficulties in organising in the Transkei?

TK     Serious difficulties. I remember Buthelezi was addressing there last week for the first time. I went there early, a week before, the whole of that week every day and every news bulletin, you could hear each and every leader of the ANC issuing a statement of concern, worried, wanting the IFP to get out of the Eastern Cape, complaining about my presence in the Eastern Cape, every day it showed how much worried they were and they were even saying that their concerns were not just that they fear opposition but they said they feared that there might be a bloodshed. That indicated that they were going to attack us, but all the same we went ahead, there was no bloodshed. There was, of course, a lot of provocation on the part of the ANC trying to provoke us. We will manage.

POM     Did you think in these elections, in the local elections in general, that the IFP are going to poll better than they did in the general election of last year?

TK     I doubt - yes is the answer, but I don't think we did as badly as we were given. I think the elections, last years elections, were arranged long before we go to elections. Where did the Freedom Front get the votes? Freedom Front, white minority party, more votes than the PAC, because Mandela feared the strength of the right wing maybe he had to accommodate them. I think that was pre-arranged. Be that as it was, I think we were given as little as possible particularly outside KwaZulu/Natal, but maybe not all of it was designed. But the fact that we were not there at the polling stations, some polling stations it was just the ANC alone, I mean you could expect that. In these coming elections I think we are going to prove, generally speaking. But I always like to talk about my region, I am a conservative, that's Gauteng, that's West Rand, this Johannesburg. Now we are going to pull some few surprises, I am convinced about that, so there is no way - we will do better, definitely do better.

POM     So you have more councillors than people anticipate?

TK     No, I think other people now have realised that we are a threat. If you look at the local newspapers, Monday's Sowetan where there was this count-down on the election things, the journalist was saying that the IFP poses to create some upsets and when you look at the City Press of the weekend it also indicated that IFP seemed to be doing well.

POM     Doing much better than anticipated?

TK     Well they don't put it that way, they just say that we are better, we are one of the better boys around. We work, huh, we work hard, hard, hard, hard out. I am sorry last time I missed your appointment because I needed more votes than your interview! I am sorry about this.

POM     That's OK. Do you still think that the ANC are out to destroy the IFP and move towards a one party state, that this is their long term goal?

TK     Definitely. Definitely so. The reason why they are insensitive to the cry of the people that they are not delivering is because the intention here is not yet to deliver but to secure power. South Africa is a black country. You cannot expect a white party to rule this country. I am talking about nature and the National Party is a white party. IFP and ANC are black parties. The only party that the ANC sees as a danger, the only party that has got easy access in all ANC's strongholds if the ANC fails is the IFP. Even our goals, our objectives are sharply in contrast to theirs and if we take power that would mean the end of the ANC unless it changes. But if the National Party takes power, the National Party is in between when it runs with dogs and runs with the jackals, it's not clear, it's position is not clear. When it is with the ANC to support some sort of central power, if it wants the IFP to support some sort of federal power, so they are not providing options therefore the ANC knows the party they must stop is us.

POM     You said the NP is a white party, the ANC is a black party, IFP is a black party, a number of people have suggested to me that there is a degree of resentment within the IFP at the number of high profile positions that whites occupy in the party given the proportion of white people who are in the party.

TK     I don't think there is a resentment per se, but I think it is a valid concern. I mean why should they be top if they don't have strong constituencies. I think that's given. But if black people decide that they should put white people on top, because there are some white people who are strong enough in black communities and in the respect of black people and be elected on top that is fine but it is not generally expected but it is accepted.

POM     Do you see that changing in the future? That there will be more emphasis on pointing out the realities of life, I would say get to high profile white people, saying the fact is you may be high profile and you do this and you do that but you don't deliver the vote?

TK     Yes but what puts people up is their votes. My principle will always remain that each man must be rewarded according to his ability and his delivery and nobody must be given a better position because of the colour of his skin. Even a black man if he is not delivering he does not deserve to go on top. That's my philosophy, that's my position, I am married to that unless somebody explains to me differently. I personally in the event where we have internal campaign I will point out, I will freely point out those things, but if I am in a position to campaign on behalf of a white person I will always be willing, now I am talking about within the party, I would be always willing to campaign for somebody who I believe is the right man and he deserves a position. Other than that I won't take the offer or the job. So I must be able to say to the people, this man you know, this man did A, B, C, D for the rest of us. I know some white IFP, coloureds and Indians who work, some of them work more than I do, I know that. I know people who are holding a lesser position than I do, coloured people, Indian and white people, but whom I think can in a given society, if people knew their contribution, would put them above myself. I know them by name and I know again as well that there are who are above me who I perform better than they do. It is just those things.

POM     If you were Premier of Gauteng and you replaced Tokyo, what would you do differently than what he is doing now?

TK     When I arrive at that position the political environment would be completely a different one. Maybe it will be when Dr Buthelezi is the president of the country. Let's assume I do so when Mandela or the ANC is still the national government, I will do what it will take, what it will demand to secure more power for the province. I think I would not go direct, taking a direct frontal approach to secure power for the province but I will mobilise the business community on the ground. I will deregulate many laws. All that is there within the constitution for me to do, deregulate them, allow people to make small businesses, small and medium businesses in particular and also try to utilise particularly the older police issue, maximise the security in the country as much as possible. Now that is if it is the ANC that is in the centre. But if it is the IFP that is in the centre and I am heading this province, take it from me you will have a Hong Kong here, you will have a Taiwan here because first and foremost I will invite those aspects from Taiwan, Hong Kong to come and stay here full time, advise us on a daily basis, show us where we went wrong, where we go wrong, and fly our people out of the country, our youth, those who are just completing their matric, those who are just completing their university studies out of the country, those who are in the health field, those who are in science, those who are on culture, everything, business, fly them out to Mauritius, fly them out to Taiwan, to Hong Kong, let them go and start, let them go and see how those countries go there almost for a year or above and they must come back and start to implement everything. I would want a situation where there are more jobs than people. I think that is possible. Why isn't it possible when Taiwan, Mauritius people are running short of the labour force? Why is it not possible here?

POM     One of the big arguments advanced as a constraint on economic growth in South Africa is that wages are simply too high and that when you look at Taiwan and Malaysia and even at Brazil or Poland ...

TK     Why should the wages not be high if after I lose the employment, if there is a possibility for me to lose the employment and if I lose the employment there is no other job, why then the workers should not demand for more money so that they can keep it for themselves? Why don't we then in my province, under my premiership, I would want experts who created the environment in Taiwan, in Mauritius, the environment where people can be with a small salary and secure job. I would want those experts to come and create that environment here with us because when you talk about Mauritius people you are talking about human beings, people like me and you and then you are talking about another ... or another gender and what is good for them is good for us. The sense of belonging, the sense of ownership is not there in this country. It's not there. Those people who have got factories, it is their factories. Those people who have got businesses, it is their businesses. Those of us who work there, simply work there, who work for them, we don't own those factories. In other words the whole strength of the economical standard of the people is in the hands of the minority. Why don't we then create a situation where everyone will have a share in the company. Don't give out, I'm not saying so, the very little they are earning now the more they are earning now as it is said they must leave something towards the building of the company, of that factory and they become shareholders in the factory. And when they want to go to strike they cut their own production, their own money, that we all have the sense of responsibility. We don't have that here.

     You cannot have both the strong and militant trade union and a strong economy at the same time because those things clash. You need to prioritise the one. In the era of liberation you needed to have a strong and militant trade union but in the liberation area where we are fighting the economy of the country you need to have lesser militant trade unions and a stronger economical growth condition for that matter. But you don't do that by simply denying other people rights, that's trade unions, but you must create amongst them a sense of responsibility, a sense of ownership, they must treat the workplace as their own house, as their own family. They must not have a sense of if I leave here I have got nothing. They must have a sense of, I can't leave here, nobody will do it better than myself. That kind of a sense you need to build in the minds of the people. But you do that by creating jobs, by learning from the learned people.

POM     That's the one thing that has to happen in 18 months. After 18 months there have been no jobs created.

TK     Yes, true, that's what I'm saying. That's why I have a sense now that one day I will be a premier because those people who are supposed to have done what I am thinking did not do it and if they were performing well I would have been thinking of remaining a strong opposition party because I think they are doing well I don't have a chance to win. But now because they are fumbling then I think I am a better guy, fumbling and failing.

POM     Just one or two last questions. One goes back again to the allegations against you. If charges are brought against you, you have nothing to fear?

TK     Absolutely nothing. In fact as I have said to you earlier that the ANC want to use this Commission of Enquiry to divert the focus of the people to the problems that the ANC are creating.

POM     The Truth Commission?

TK     Any commission that is related to those things including the Truth Commission. So the ANC want to have the commission so that I go to the commission. Now in commission you can talk for a year or two years and after that you don't have any judgement, there is no judgement out of a commission. Then politically speaking that would be dangerous for whosoever is standing there, damaging because lies can be used, anything can be distorted, cannot be disproved. I don't want to play that game. I don't want to help them destroying myself or my party. But then there is a reality how the people of this country will know the truth. How am I going to be charged then for the allegation if I don't want to come forward? Then I say, and I say because of the people of this country I will only be prepared to go to a court of law, a defined criminal court of law and be charged, tried and I will be acquitted once and for all. I am not prepared to go to the commissions of enquiry. That's the position.

POM     The second last thing is in KwaZulu/Natal the Provincial Administration has made the allegation that the police units that have been sent into KwaZulu/Natal and the extra police that have been sent in are for the most part former members of the MK and that they are out to get leading IFP leaders and supporters. Does the IFP have evidence to that effect?

TK     Yes there is evidence. You are talking about the official records, there is evidence on that and there is also evidence to the fact that prior to this era the MK were the agents of our death, they were killing us. We have got evidence on that. Today they are the police. You know I am going around without a bodyguard because each time we from the IFP ask the state to provide us with a bodyguard they will always give you an MK. I am better alone than with an MK guy. So the situation is serious. You see we just have hope and we are prepared to go on and on and on because there is no other country, this is our home, we can't run away. But the situation is bad. The ANC is out to destroy the opposition still and those people are there who believe that communism is dead they must look around. It isn't dead when in fact Mandela cannot be said he is not a communist and it is even worse, his entire Cabinet is more communist. South Africa has more communists in its Cabinet than any western world country.

POM     The last question is do you think the national resources are being used in Natal, national police forces and investigators, to try to expose IFP supposed hit squads?

TK     So-called hit squads. It's unfortunate that millions and millions of rands are spent there to witch-hunt the IFP when there were more people who committed murders on the ANC side than any party in the country. But the IFP is being singled out by the ANC and the taxpayers' money is being used for that one, national resources are being used to that effect. We have a situation, a frightening situation in the country that the nurses are on strike demanding increment and the money that is being used to witch-hunt the IFP by the state could be better used for the increase of the nurses because the money that is being used in Natal against the IFP is not one payment, a lump sum, it is a continuous payment because this thing is going on and on and on and on and for that matter they hire witnesses, paid people to say something about the IFP and if that money was used towards the benefit of the country it would be a better thing.

     And there is this thing of the feeding scheme at schools and it is rife to all corruption and frauds and that money it would have been directed better if it was used to the general increment of the workers throughout the country and then it would be the workers themselves who give pocket money to their children with the bigger money, other than the government to expose our national resources to these frauds because in many areas it is being stolen. In Transkei in one area and other regions it has been closed down because millions and millions of rands are being frauded out. I think the government in its effort it is trying more to impress rather than to realistically deliver.

POM     OK, we will leave it at that.

This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. Return to the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory site.