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This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.

Name: Vincent Kusahusa Khanyile

11-08-1998: Day 1

Application Number: Am 6124/97

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this continuation of the hearings. We apologise for commencing somewhat late. As is always the case, it is somewhat difficult to commence on time during the first date of the hearing, but we hope we will make up for the lost time by sitting until late and starting at 9 o'clock as from tomorrow morning.

Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I call my first applicant, Vincent Khanyile.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, before my learned friend calls Mr Khanyile, might I please be allowed to make a formal application. The application concerns a person by the name of Andries Nosenga who has made application ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't hear anything.

MR BERGER: Who has made application for amnesty for his part in the Boipatong massacre and who is not presently before the Committee.

According to the contents of a draft affidavit which was apparently annexed to his amnesty application, he has a version which is radically different from the version of the applicants presently before the Committee. In particular in our submission Chairperson, the contents of Mr Nosenga's application and in particular the evidence that he might give before this Committee are essential for the purposes of cross-examination. We need to know exactly what it is that he is going to say to the Committee so that we can cross-examine the remaining applicants.

It also might happen Chairperson, that once the applicants have heard Mr Nosenga, and in particular what he says in his affidavit, that they might change their versions or might not, or amplify their versions.

We would ask that Mr Nosenga's application be heard before the other applicants because, in our submission, if it is not it will necessitate the recall of each and every one of the applicants after Mr Nosenga has given his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished?

Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I can simply report that I've set in motion arrangements to get Mr Nosenga to the hearings. He is currently in prison at Vereeniging and steps have been taken this morning to get him here.

Mr Chairman, I would submit that in the normal course he would still have to be enrolled, as yet he is not before the Committee. We don't know at this stage whether he is represented by anyone and obviously we would have to make those enquiries as well Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, it is my view that we should proceed with the hearing subject obviously to Mr Nosenga being enrolled, whether that occur later this afternoon or tomorrow. I submit that whoever is being questioned can be questioned or recalled on that specific aspect. I submit there would be no prejudice in that situation, in other words that the proceedings proceed until Mr Nosenga has in fact enrolled.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairperson, Mr Nosenga's application is not before the Committee at this stage and I can see no basis upon which we must delay the proceedings pending his enrolment. The fact of the matter is that the legal representative for the family can put the version of Mr Nosenga to the various applicants and they can answer to that version at this stage. So I ask that the proceedings carry on.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, I fully agree with my learned friend, Mr Strydom, because Mr Mthembu has already given his evidence and it will not have any bearing on him but we only have an unsigned affidavit by this said Nosenga at this stage so I don't even think there's a proper ...[inaudible]

MR FREDERICH: I have no submissions in this regard Mr Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, if I could just place on record that we deliberately did not go into the details of what occurred in Boipatong on the night of the massacre, so as far as putting a version to the applicants, it would of necessity be selective and might not necessarily be full.

MICROPHONES SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger who appears on behalf of the victims has made an application to the effect that an amnesty application by one, ...[indistinct] Matanzima Nosenga, to which is annexed an unsigned affidavit, be heard prior to the remaining applications being heard. The application by Mr Nosenga is not before us in the sense that it has not been enrolled. All we have is an unsigned affidavit by him and the application for amnesty which has also been handed to us is incomplete, it doesn't have the signature page, although it does appear from the application itself that it was given an application number, that is 2778 of 1996. We've been informed by Mr Prior that arrangements have now been made to bring Mr Nosenga to these hearings.

It seems to us that until such time that Mr Nosenga is here, confirms the contents of his application, it would be inadvisable to delay these proceedings. Accordingly, we will proceed with the evidence of the remaining applicants.

MR STRYDOM: I will ask that Mr Khanyile be sworn in.

MR LAX: Mr Khanyile, could we have your full names for the record please?

MR KHANYILE: Vincent Kusahusa Khanyile.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Khanyile, you have signed a form applying for amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Amnesty Act, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: In front of you you have that form, can you just confirm your signature on the last page thereof? That appears on page 95 of the fist bundle.

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it is mine.

MR STRYDOM: Also annexed to this form appears two pages that provide for certain answers to certain questions contained in that form, do you confirm the contents thereof?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to pages 96 and 97?

MR STRYDOM: Indeed so, Mr Chairman.

Then certain further particulars were requested and that request appears on page 98 and 99 of the bundle, and I want your answer to confirm the correctness of further particulars contained on page 101 and 102 of the bundle. Were those the answers you gave?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it is true.

MR STRYDOM: And then I want to refer you to an affidavit contained from page 103 to 106 of the bundle. If you can firstly look at page 106, do you confirm your signature on that document?

MR KHANYILE: It is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now this statement, or did you have insight into this statement again before you started testifying?

MR KHANYILE: It is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Do you confirm that contents thereof?

MR KHANYILE: That's true.

MR STRYDOM: Now I want to return to the application as contained in Form 1 and I want to refer you to the answer to questions 10(a). You have an Afrikaans copy in front of you and I will read in Afrikaans:

"Meld politieke oogmerk wat bereik wou word"

The answer to that question is contained on page 96. I am going to read certain portions to you and I want further comment on what is stated here.

"Die politieke oogmerk wat bereik wou word met die aanval op Boipatong was om die oorwegend ANC beheerde en gesinde Boipatong 'n les to leer en om meer spesifiek die 'Self-defence Units' van die ANC te neutraliseer. Die rede daarvoor was die vyandige gesindheid wat geheers het tussen die IFP en die ANC gesinde 'Self-defence Units'"

Mr Khanyile, can you at this stage just give us your comments on what is stated here, especially with regard to the problems between the ANC and the IFP?

MR KHANYILE: I do agree with what has been read, but what I don't know is I'm not too sure if the advocate expects me to explain about the enmity as to why they were our enemies.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that's the question.

MR KHANYILE: Okay. I will first explain and say the beginning of the problem was in July when we had a rally at the stadium at Zone 7. When we came back from the rally we discovered that anyone who spoke Zulu, that was the day upon which they will be killed. From there, on the 22nd of July, we were not able to go back to our places or to our homes.

A person left his home or her home without anything. Our possessions were confiscated from us. Even those who were selling such things like fridges, such stock was confiscated from them and the cars were burnt as well. It was evident that we had no place of refuge. From there we ran away to the office, to the Zulu Government in Vereeniging.

MR STRYDOM: Can I just stop you here, which office do you refer to?

MR KHANYILE: I'm referring to the office that was representing the Zulu nation which was in Vereeniging. The leader there or the head there was Vivian Velase(?) of the office.

MR STRYDOM: Was that an IFP office?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it was because everything that had to do with IFP we did it from that office.

MR STRYDOM: Were you a member of the IFP at that stage?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you hold any office with the IFP?

MR KHANYILE: No, I held no office.

MR STRYDOM: Will you then continue from where you went to this office?

MR LAX: Just before you do, if I could just clarify something, you were going very quickly unfortunately and I didn't pick up everything. You mentioned a date and I didn't catch it very clearly, was it the 22nd of July, is that what you said?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Was that the date of the rally?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: So from that date onward things got bad for you, is that what you're saying?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I'm trying to explain that as from the 22nd or as from the 22 onwards, the situation got volatile.

MR LAX: What year was that? That is the other thing I just wanted to check.

MR KHANYILE: It was 1990.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Just another clarification, you started by saying it was an office for KwaZulu government but you ended up agreeing that it was an IFP office, I want to get clarity on that. What type of office was it, was it the office for the IFP political party or was it the office which was representing the KwaZulu government like it was done in the olden days, that every homeland would have an office in the urban areas?

MR KHANYILE: What I could be in a position to explain would be, if that is true, it was an office representing the KwaZulu Government, yet the IFP activities as well would be addressed there. Like the IFP members, the majority were Zulus and everything would be discussed and addressed from the very same office.

MR LAX: Perhaps I could just assist. Mr Mvelasi, I have a recollection somewhere the he was the Urban Representative of the KwaZulu Government, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just please continue with your evidence, from where you went to this office?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on. The Interpreter has a problem, the speaker's microphone is not on.

MR LAX: Please just hold on, there's a small technical problem.

PROBLEMS WITH SOUND EQUIPMENT

MR KHANYILE: From there hell broke loose. As we were workers we were harassed and the majority of us, as the office was not too big or was small, it became clear and evident that we can not occupy the office, all of us.

The life that we led was traumatic because we had to seek refuge in some bush nearby Sasol, where a white man sympathised with us and we came across, or we met the Red Cross workers and they erected some tents for us so we were able to have comfort and we attributed all of that to the white man who helped us with the place of refuge.

From there we continued in the same state or conditions that we were being harassed and people were burnt all over the Vaal triangle or were set alight. In fact, if you were speaking Zulu you would definitely be killed. If you had an affair with a Zulu man you would definitely be killed. If you were seen anywhere talking to a Zulu person you would be killed, no doubt about that.

If your neighbour hated you so much, maybe you had beautiful things or admirable things, he would tell on you to the comrades and claim that you were Inkatha and therefore you will be killed.

The Zulu kids who were children or whose parents were Inkatha members, from 1990 they never went to school, they lost education.

MR STRYDOM: When did you move into the kwaMadala Hostel?

MR KHANYILE: After we left that place of refuge we found a place called kwaMadala Hostel, it was towards the end of October 1990. We discovered a place that was not occupied and we did not even ask anyone or from anyone, we just decided to occupy that place with no permission from anybody. That is how we entered the kwaMadala Hostel in October 1990. That went on, the harassment went on.

As we were still at kwaMadala Hostel, we were ordinary workers and we were never able to have transport that could take us or that could transport us from the hostel to work. People who did try to transport us to work were terrified and they left us alone.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just give the Committee more information about the people that went to kwaMadala Hostel, who were they, who did they sympathise with and to which political party did they belong?

MR KHANYILE: I will try to explain in this fashion: When all of this went on, the killing of people or the killing of Zulu-speaking people, there was a rumour that came from the ANC structures that was forwarded to their members, to the ANC members that is, that they should leave the word that says: "We are killing Zulus" because there as people in KwaZulu that are Inkatha as well and that word was left alone. Instead there was a precise statement that they were killing Inkatha people, not necessarily the Zulus.

I would say the people who were at kwaMadala Hostel were the IFP members, the majority was Zulu-speaking people or the Zulus.

MR STRYDOM: Now you refer to the Zulu people that were killed, who killed them, according to your knowledge?

MR KHANYILE: According to my knowledge we were being killed by the ANC members.

MR STRYDOM: In your application you refer to: "Self-defence Units", can you just tell the Committee more about these units?

MR KHANYILE: The Self-defence Unit was a group of youths which ordained itself as a group of warriors and going out or they deployed themselves to kill the IFP members and to set the houses of IFP members alight.

MR STRYDOM: Reference is also made to: "comrades" in your application, were they the same group or a different group?

MR KHANYILE: I mean the same group.

MR STRYDOM: Now during the time that you stayed in kwaMadala Hostel, did you have any personal experiences of attacks on your own life or people with you?

MR KHANYILE: I don't quite understand your question, would you please repeat it?

MR STRYDOM: Whilst staying at kwaMadala Hostel, did you move out of the hostel into Boipatong township or any township for that matter, and experience any problems yourself?

MR KHANYILE: No, I never left kwaMadala Hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Bongani Mbatha?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I do know him.

MR STRYDOM: Can you tell the Committee what happened to him?

MR KHANYILE: Bongani Mbatha was arrested in Boipatong location and I was with him at the time. If I'm not mistaken I think we were about 10 in number, a group of 10, that is. We were at a tavern by the name of, I believe it's Checkers or Trekkers Tavern ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker is not too sure.

MR KHANYILE: When we were still there in that jubilant mood we heard that noise outside and we got outside to see and we realised that the situation had changed and we tried to go back to the place, or to our home.

As it was still the situation we realised that there was an attack going on. We saw a police van and we enlisted some help from them, in a sense that we wanted a lift with the police in their van and they refused us a lift and they said we should follow them instead, walk behind the van until they had escorted us outside the location but it did not happen like that.

As people were grouping and gathering the police also left us alone. They threw stones at us, and that was the beginning of the attack. Fortunately Mr Mbatha got hold of a stick on the ground. As the person who had something one like a jacket I advised him to put that stick right inside his jacket, to hide it so to speak and pretend as if he is drawing out a gun from his jacket.

We tried to walk upwards towards the taxi rank and the people were following us, throwing stones at us, back and forth that is. When I realised that we were seriously being attacked and that in no time they would get hold of us and we will be captured, I pretended as if I'm drawing something from my jacket, like a gun and they made way or they gave way to us. We were able now to run away, to escape from them.

They never gave up, they still ran after us. I consistently pretend as if I'm drawing a gun out of my jacket. Unfortunately as we were about to gain exit, Mr Mbatha was hit and he fell on the ground instantly. We took off, we left him because we could not help him in any way. He was stabbed by stakes or the garden equipment. He was injured.

One thing that pains me is that he was hit just before we were saved because we were just about to escape completely from the group. He was assaulted severely and they tried to pour paraffine on his body and the police emerged immediately and they helped him or they took him with. That is how far I know inasfar as Mbatha's case is concerned.

MR STRYDOM: This Mr Mbatha, was he a member of the IFP?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it is true.

MR STRYDOM: At that stage was he a resident of the kwaMadala Hostel?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Approximately how long before the 17th of June 1992, when this attack took place, did this incident take place?

MR KHANYILE: It didn't take long, although I have no clear recollection inasfar as that or estimation is concerned.

MR STRYDOM: In front of me I have a newspaper clipping, that is Exhibit K. I want to read certain portions ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Where is Mr Mbatha now?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Mbatha died.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what the cause of his death was?

MR KHANYILE: He died in that attack.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you to Exhibit K, that is an extract of the Sunday Star dated the 28th of June 1992 and I want your personal comments about what is stated here:

"On June the 13th/14th, the weekend before the massacre, at least three people were murdered in Boipatong. The first was a woman named Nomvula, accused of consorting with her Inkatha boyfriend and dispatched in the small hours of Saturday"

Do you have any personal knowledge about this?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Can you tell the Committee more about this incident?

MR KHANYILE: What I know or it's what I heard was the attack or her attack when she got killed was because she had an Inkatha boyfriend but I did not know her personally.

MR STRYDOM: I carry on quoting:

"The second was David Mbele, a 37 year old Boipatong resident and school teacher ...

...[intervention]

MR BERGER: Chairperson, might I object at this stage, I know this is not a court of law but my learned friend is just leading the witness, reading out the evidence and asking the witness to confirm. I submit that it would have more value if the witness was asked a direct question and gave his evidence in that fashion.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairperson, I can just refer the Committee to page 104 of his affidavit where he already stated this under oath and he mentioned the names of Mr Mbele and Nomvula in his affidavit which is already before the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any issue about the contents of this report?

MR BERGER: Yes, there are certain facts which I will put to the witness. I'm sorry Chairperson, I don't know what the question is.

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to find out, because I don't know where it's going to take us to get into side issues without getting into the real reason why we are here. What I want to find out is, are the contents of Exhibit K in issue, is there any dispute about that report?

MR BERGER: There is no dispute about the fact that people were killed, what is in dispute is the reason for the killings.

CHAIRPERSON: For the sake of progress, would you just ask the witness whether he knows these persons?

MR STRYDOM: I will do so.

Mr Khanyile, did you know or did you know a certain person with the name of David Mbele?

MR KHANYILE: I knew him from hearing about him, not in person.

MR STRYDOM: Before the attack on Boipatong, what did you hear about him?

MR KHANYILE: I heard that he was attacked by a group. he was attacked by a group of people which was estimated to 400 in number that is. The reason we got to hear was that he was attacked simply by being a Zulu and observing the Zulu rituals.

MR STRYDOM: During that period did you know a certain person by the name of B L Khumalo?

MR KHANYILE: I knew that person personally.

MR STRYDOM: Was he a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Before the attack on Boipatong, did you hear what happened to him?

MR KHANYILE: He was attacked in Boipatong and was set alight from morning until midday and died on the spot.

MR STRYDOM: In your own mind, during that period, who was responsible for killing these people with Zulu or Inkatha connections?

MR KHANYILE: They were killed by the youth of ANC in the location.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you again to page 96 of your application. In the middle of the page it reads:

"'n Verdere politieke oogmerk was om aan die ANC te toon dat die IFP nie sou toelaat dat ANC lede IFP lede se lewens reguleer en ons bewegings vryheid beperk nie"

Can you just explain to the Committee what you mean by that?

MR KHANYILE: This means the fact that I was trying to explain was the ANC couldn't have done anything at liberty, we were also expected or supposed to show them that we are people as well and we are capable of doing what they were doing, the acts of violence as well.

MR STRYDOM: What was the general feeling amongst the residents of the kwaMadala Hostel prior to the attack, in relation to the killings that were ongoing?

MR KHANYILE: As a person, I will filled with revenge, wanted to avenge.

MR STRYDOM: And I continue on page 96:

"'n Waarskuwing is ook uitgestuur na die ANC ondersteuners om nie die 'Self-defence Units' te ondersteun nie. Die gedagte was om die inwoners van Boipatong te intimideer soos hulle ons geïntimideer het"

Do you have any comment to make at this stage?

MR KHANYILE: I did not quite understand this part.

MR STRYDOM: According to you, at that stage who was supporting the Self-defence Units?

MR KHANYILE: The community at large in the Vaal triangle.

MR STRYDOM: Would that include the Boipatong community?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR STRYDOM: You also make mention of some kind of attack that was launched by the community or the Self-defence Units from Boipatong on kwaMadala Hostel, can you just tell us more about that?

MR KHANYILE: What I would say is, the attack of kwaMadala Hostel was by the Vaal Triangle at large.

MR STRYDOM: But was there any specific attack in the full sense of the word, on kwaMadala Hostel, or might I say attempted attack?

MR KHANYILE: It happened many times. I do trust and hope that there is no-one who doesn't this because it became a practise that people kept saying they are going to attack the kwaMadala Hostel.

MR STRYDOM: To get to the attack itself, when did you become aware for the first time that an attack was going to take place on Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: What I know firstly with regard to Boipatong attack, there was a meeting convened where as a community of kwaMadala Hostel or hostel dwellers we complained to our leaders that why would they be so quiet when we were being harassed and tortured in this manner because those days people who were after us were Boipatong community or Boipatong people.

The leaders therefore said they understood perfectly well what we were complaining about and they were going to sit down and think over this matter. There was another meeting that was held.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know when this meeting was?

MR KHANYILE: I don't quite remember but it may happen that it took three weeks prior to the attack. And again there was a meeting that convened, that I trust it took or it was held a week prior to the attack where Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize attended and told us that each and every man had to get himself ready or prepared.

MR STRYDOM: If I can interrupt you, ...[intervention]

MR KHANYILE: There is something I would like to explain or get straight. I would like to get this first point straight: It was not a meeting that was about what I just explained, it was an ordinary meeting, a general meeting, that after the meeting was over we had complaints which were lodged by certain people, forwarded to the leaders ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the meeting that was held approximately three weeks before the attack on Boipatong?

MR LAX: Sorry, I didn't catch your answer there.

MR KHANYILE: I did respond.

MR LAX: What was your answer?

MR KHANYILE: I said there was a meeting. The meeting I'm referring to is the one that took place three weeks prior to the attack, Boipatong that is.

MR STRYDOM: Who were the leaders at that meeting?

MR KHANYILE: I think I will take this opportunity and explain about the leaders at kwaMadala Hostel. Firstly there was a committee, a large committee which was referred to as a Senior Committee. The Chairman of that Committee was Thembikosi Khumalo. His assistant was Richard Ndwandwa. The Secretary was Jerome Zuma. I've forgotten his assistant.

CHAIRPERSON: Who have you forgotten?

MR KHANYILE: The assistant to the Secretary, I've forgotten his name. The Treasurer was Swenke Buthelezi and his assistant was a man I knew as Ngobese, and the organiser was Gazu. Gazu is one of those who were killed at Boipatong. I only recall those from the Senior Committee.

We had a Youth Committee. The Chairman was Nicholas Buthelezi, his assistant was Victor Mthembu. The Secretary was Matabelo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, would you just speak slowly so that we can make notes of what you're saying. The Chairperson was Nicholas Buthelezi?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's true. Matabelo, that is, his assistant was Tzwee and another one that I knew was Bazooga. Others I knew them from seeing them but I did not know their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what the other names of Tzwee are?

MR KHANYILE: No, I only know that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what are the other names of Bazooga?

MR KHANYILE: No, I knew him as Bazooga.

MR LAX: You say you knew the others by sight, approximately how many members of that committee were there?

MR KHANYILE: According to my knowledge there were eight in each committee. Senior Committee had eight, as well as the Youth Committee had eight members.

MR LAX: Were you a member of any of those committees?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR STRYDOM: These committees, were they IFP Committees or hostel committees?

MR KHANYILE: These committees that I've referred to were IFP Committees, now I am proceeding to the hostel committees.

We also had another committee that was dealing with the hostel problems. The committee of the kwaMadala Hostel were also the employees of ISCOR, working in ISCOR.

Firstly, the one that was in charge of that place or the area was Mr Moses Mthembu and another man whose name I have forgotten although I remember his surname and he was Kumane and three others who were working as security men who were controlling the entrance and the exit, or the coming in and the going out of people. One of them was Mr Shohisa and the other was Mr Nthule and Mr Mkwanazi. These are the ones who were in charge inside.

We also had another committee or maybe the Indunas, they were two only ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: These Induna, they were not part of the house committee?

MR KHANYILE: No. ...[No English translation]

MR LAX: Sorry, we're not getting any translation. Mr Khanyile, can you just repeat from the point where you started talking about the Indunas Committee.

MR KHANYILE: Okay. There were two Indunas, the first Induna was Bhekinkosi Mkhize and his assistant was, I knew him as Mzizi. Those were the ones who were in charge or who were our leaders.

Each time we had traditional weapons. And again there was Vanana Zulu. Vanana was a Prince. He had no position that he occupied but as a child from royal family or his is a prince and he was amongst us being the majority Zulus. We always acknowledged him as our leader. There is nothing that would take place without consulting him. That is how the hierarchy was at the kwaMadala Hostel.

There's a slight thing that I'm forgetting. We had also had another committee which dealt with the death. As we lost so many souls we had a committee that specifically dealt with that, collecting of money for the preparation of funerals, we were just the two of us. Myself I was the collector of monies, in fact I was something like a secretary and there was another one that I was working with and he was taken as a chairman of this two-man committee. I am forgetting his name. His surname is Mpungosi. I have forgotten his first name, Mpungosi is his name, I've forgotten his first name. That is how the hierarchy of leadership was at the kwaMadala Hostel.

MR STRYDOM: In your application you make mention of a person with the name of Damarra Chonco, what was his position?

MR KHANYILE: Damarra Chonco, I'm remembering now, he was one of the Senior Committee members. The ones I have already listed for you, he was one. He formed part of the Senior Committee. This was a man whom we knew very well. We collected the money and he would be in a position to go and buy weapons to protect ourselves, he said.

MR STRYDOM: I want to take you back to the meeting you've mentioned that took place three weeks before the attack. That is the meeting which you said was a general meeting about some of the residents who started to complain about their situation. Who was chairing that meeting?

MR KHANYILE: I don't remember.

MR STRYDOM: Then you made mention of another meeting approximately a week before the attack, what was the nature of that meeting?

MR KHANYILE: This was a meeting just like other meetings we used to hold, but at the end of that meeting Mr Mkhize conveyed a message to the effect that each and every man should be right next to his possessions or should get ready or be prepared.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this said at the first or the second meeting?

MR KHANYILE: The second meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you understand him to mean when he said each person must stay near his things?

MR KHANYILE: I understood him to be saying the day is close or nearby for revenge or retaliation.

CHAIRPERSON: And what were the people required to do?

MR KHANYILE: I don't quite understand your question.

CHAIRPERSON: That each and every person had to stay near his things, what I want you to tell us is what did you understand him to mean by staying by your things?

MR KHANYILE: According to my understanding, I understood him to be saying that this means the day of revenge is around the corner or is nearby or is approaching closely, because he did not want to expand in his statement or explain in detail but that was my understanding.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the - let me just ask you this, who spoke when he said that?

MR KHANYILE: Please repeat your question.

MR STRYDOM: Who said that you must be close to your things?

MR KHANYILE: That was Mr Mkhize who was explaining that we must stay next to our things and get ready and be prepared.

MR STRYDOM: Is that all that he said in relation to a possible attack?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that was all.

MR STRYDOM: Now that was a week prior to the attack because we know that that attack took place on the 17th of June 1992. Now during the course of that week before the attack, did you hear anything further about this attack?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR STRYDOM: When was the next occasion that you heard anything about the attack?

MR KHANYILE: It was on Wednesday the 17th, around 8p.m. or 8 at night.

MR STRYDOM: Now just to curtail the proceedings somewhat, I just want to read to you certain portions of your affidavit on page 104, the last paragraph on that page:

"Op die aand van die 17de Junie 1992 om ongeveer 20H00 het die megafoon se alarm afgegaan. Ek het na die stadium gegaan. Baie inwoners het na die stadium gegaan. By die stadium was Damarra en Mkhize in beheer. Damarra het gesê: 'Vandag is die dag van afrekening, ons moet on wapens gaan haal'. Mkhize het ook gepraat"

Can you remember what Mkhize said?

MR KHANYILE: No, I don't remember.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I've already made the objection once. If I understood your ruling, I've been overruled to object on this basis, am I correct?

CHAIRPERSON: This is his affidavit that he's reading.

MR BERGER: That is correct. My learned friend is just going to read passages to the witness instead of asking him direct questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: After you went to the stadium, did you return to your room?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you fetch a weapon?

MR KHANYILE: What happened is when we went back to our houses to fetch the weapons we went back to the stadium, after we fetched our weapons.

MR STRYDOM: Now can you just tell the Committee what happened then.

MR KHANYILE: I will say that at the time when Damarra stated that this is the day every man should go and fetch whatever he has in a form of weapons, so to speak. He explained thereafter that - and the ones who were willing to have in their possession weapons like AK, they can contact him. I therefore went to the house and I fetched my spear and brought my spear with. After that I got some traditional herbs or I was given some traditional herbs.

MR STRYDOM: Is that called: "Ntelezi"?

MR KHANYILE: It's called Ntelezi, yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see AK47 rifles in the vicinity of the stadium or inside the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I did see them at the stadium.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see how they got there?

MR KHANYILE: No, I only saw them lying on the ground at the stadium.

MR STRYDOM: Do you take an Ak47 rifle?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Who let the people out to the township, Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: Please repeat the last part of your question.

MR STRYDOM: Who let the residents of kwaMadala Hostel out of the hostel towards Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: Even though I'm not in a position to say exactly who was leading as I was right at the back, I do trust and hope that it was Mr Mkhize, although I'm not quite sure about this.

MR STRYDOM: Can you tell the Committee now in your own words exactly which route was followed and where did you enter Boipatong?

MR STRYDOM: Well perhaps Mr Khanyile, you should start by telling us what happened after you had been sprinkled with Ntelezi, do you understand that?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember very well we started chanting some songs and we left.

MR STRYDOM: Which route did you follow to Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: We used the kwaMadala gate which no longer exists. We went under the bridge. After passing the bridge we left the tarred road and we took a foot path which turns to your right towards Boipatong. We passed the main road, we crossed the main road coming from town, which comes from town.

CHAIRPERSON: Beyond the bridge you took the foot path?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, after passing the bridge we took a small path, a foot path which was on our right.

CHAIRPERSON: And thereafter?

MR KHANYILE: We crossed the main road which comes from Vanderbijl going towards Sebokeng.

MR STRYDOM: Is that called: Nobel Boulevard or Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of the road Sir?

MR STRYDOM: It's Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, I just want to get clarity.

MR STRYDOM: After you crossed the Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, which route did you follow?

MR KHANYILE: We crossed on a small bridge, it's a small bridge used by pedestrians, we proceeded. Even if I don't know Boipatong very well, I'm sure that we used a straight street, we entered it to a straight called Sheshwe(?). I think it is the last street on your right-hand side.

MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat the name of the street please.

MR KHANYILE: I said even if I'm not very much sure, I think it was Moshweshwe Street because it is the last street on your right-hand side.

MR STRYDOM: Before the group got to Moshweshwe Street, did you come to a standstill or not?

MR KHANYILE: I think we did stop under a tree.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know why you stopped there?

MR KHANYILE: It was going to be clarified that we should enter the place and look around, look for comrades.

MR STRYDOM: Did any person give instructions at that stage?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I don't remember his name. We were a big group but there was someone who was giving instructions.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember what he said?

MR KHANYILE: As I said I was a bit far, I think I heard him saying that we should enter the township and try to look for the comrades.

MR STRYDOM: You made reference to a big group, what is your estimation, how big was that group?

MR KHANYILE: About 350 to 400.

MR STRYDOM: At that stage, in your own mind, what did you think, what were you going to do at Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: There wasn't anything else except killing.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you think that?

MR KHANYILE: We were already told in the stadium and we were armed which were arms which were used for killing.

MR STRYDOM: Now I want you to testify further from the way you came along Moshweshwe Street.

MR KHANYILE: We proceeded along that street as I've explained. We have to cross a street which comes from Zwandela which proceeds towards the taxi rank near the shops ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of the street that you came up to?

MR KHANYILE: The only street that I remember well is Moshweshwe. As you go down Moshweshwe there is a street which comes from Zwandela which crosses and proceeds towards the shops near the taxi rank. That is where we crossed the street, on our way along Moshweshwe. We found a lot of comrades around a big fire ...[intervention]

MR STRYDOM: Just before you carry on, I want to refer you to Exhibit J which is a plan of Boipatong, if you can just indicate to the Committee the street where you will find the shop.

MR KHANYILE: I think this is the point where we ...[inaudible] can see Moshweshwe Street going down and the street as I'm pointing, that is the one that crosses Moshweshwe towards the shops near the taxi rank.

MR STRYDOM: Maybe just for record purposes, I want to place on record that according to my map it seems to be Lekwa Street, higher up beyond the shops, it's names Lekwa Street. Lower down it seems to be, ja, also Lekwa Street.

You were testifying about comrades close to a fire, can you just take it from there?

MR KHANYILE: Yes. As we came closer to them they started shooting towards us and we also shot back.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who fired in your group?

MR KHANYILE: Only one person by the name of Damarra, even if it was clear that he wasn't one that was shooting.

MR STRYDOM: At that stage were all the people still together in one group or not?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Was the situation right through the attack or not?

MR KHANYILE: We ...[inaudible] different way dispersed after the shooting.

MR STRYDOM: I want you now to testify about what you did and where you went in the township.

MR STRYDOM: After the shooting it was clear that the comrades were running away. Some retreated towards Slovo Park, some ran up towards the shops. That is where we divided into two groups which were not under command. We just ran to two different places.

I was with the group which proceeded towards the shop. As the comrades were retreating, jumping fences into the yards, we also dispersed and went in different ways. Some people went into the houses, some people were running along the streets.

That is where we started hitting houses, throwing stones at houses. As others were getting into the houses, others were shooting those who were running away, others were following those who were running away with spears.

MR STRYDOM: During all this did you see Mr Damarra Chonco again?

MR KHANYILE: I would say I was close to him.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into any houses?

MR KHANYILE: No, I didn't get into any houses.

MR STRYDOM: What did you do?

MR KHANYILE: All that I did, I threw stones at the houses. I also met someone who was running away, I stabbed him with a spear.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember which part of this persons body you stabbed?

MR KHANYILE: As he was running I stabbed him from the back.

MR STRYDOM: Was it a male person or a female?

MR KHANYILE: It was a male person.

MR STRYDOM: After you stabbed him, did he fall to the ground or what happened to him?

MR KHANYILE: I stabbed him, he fell to the ground. As he wasn't alone, there were many people running away, I ran after the others. I think those who were coming from behind me stabbed him too and finished him.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you able to indicate where you met this person who was running away and you stabbed, in relation to the street or the shops?

MR KHANYILE: I would say when we started shooting in that fashion I couldn't specifically say as to where these things happened because it was a confused situation and further I don't know Boipatong very well but when I try to recall I think we had already passed the shops.

MR SIBANYONI: But you were still on Lekwa Street?

MR KHANYILE: I don't remember the name of the street where I stabbed him.

MR STRYDOM: Did you stab this man shortly after you entered Boipatong or towards the time that you were ready to leave Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: It was the time when we were running after those who were retreating, running away. After we have just started shooting and then they ran away.

MR STRYDOM: Now apart from this person did you injure any other person in Boipatong, injure or kill?

MR KHANYILE: All the others that I tried to follow, they managed to run away from me. I just continued breaking windows of houses until we had to go back where we came from.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember from which street you left Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: We used a street which is situated where there is a fence but I don't know the name of the street.

MR STRYDOM: That street, was it close to where you entered or was it the other side of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: It was not that far from where we entered. I would say ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Excuse me, he said it was far from where we entered the place.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Interpreter, I can't hear you very clearly.

INTERPRETER: He said it was far, I made a mistake saying it was near.

MR STRYDOM: If I show you ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR STRYDOM: If I show you Exhibit J, can you indicate where you left Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: It is so difficult for me to follow the map but I will just give directions here. As we entered, on our right-hand side we went down, down that street. When we were coming out of the place ...[no further translation]

MR STRYDOM: You were stating: "Coming out of the place", can you take it from there please?

MR KHANYILE: We went out on the side where Boipatong is ...[indistinct] to a fence ...[indistinct]

MR LAX: Sorry, please just repeat Mr Interpreter, that thing about the fence. I couldn't hear you as it was indistinct.

INTERPRETER: He said they went out at the place where Boipatong is adjacent to firms.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give a name of one of those firms or two maybe?

MR KHANYILE: I would say Cape Meat as they follow each other.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know the location of the informal settlement called Slovo Park?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I know the place.

MR STRYDOM: During the course of the attack did you go into Slovo Park or not?

MR KHANYILE: I and my group we didn't reach Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any of the attackers going in that direction?

MR KHANYILE: I would think the other group which went downwards might have reached Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: What was the general condition with regard to lights in that area?

MR KHANYILE: Regarding light of Boipatong you said?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that's correct.

MR KHANYILE: There was light but it wasn't that good.

MR STRYDOM: What kind of lights were there?

MR KHANYILE: There were those, they're Apollo lights.

MR STRYDOM: How long would you estimate did you spend in Boipatong itself?

MR KHANYILE: I think it was about one hour and thirty minutes.

MR STRYDOM: How long would you say it would take, or did it take for the group to get from kwaMadala Hostel to the stage where the group entered Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: It will be from 15 to 20 minutes.

MR STRYDOM: And did it take the same time to get from Boipatong to kwaMadala Hostel?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it might have.

MR STRYDOM: During the attack did you see Defence Force or Police vehicles in Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you at any stage, from the time you left kwaMadala Hostel till the time you returned to kwaMadala Hostel, see any police vehicles?

MR KHANYILE: When we were leaving Boipatong, on that bridge, small bridge which is a pedestrian bridge, there were soldiers cars. I would say there were two or three. They were standing there. As we were coming closer and we were hurrying or in a hurry, they retreated towards, and stopped at a trade garage near the robots.

MR STRYDOM: After the group crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard on their way back, did you follow the same route when you went there?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now whilst you were on that tarred section from the bridge you referred earlier on, towards the main entrance of kwaMadala Hostel, did you see any military vehicles or police vehicles?

MR KHANYILE: I didn't see police on that day, I only saw the soldiers vehicles which I've just mentioned.

MR STRYDOM: I just want to get clarity, did you see soldiers' vehicles on your way back from the bridge to the main gate?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: When you got back into the hostel, what happened?

MR KHANYILE: We went back into the hostel and then we went to the stadium again. That is where we were told that we should disperse into our houses before the police could come.

MR STRYDOM: What did you do?

MR KHANYILE: We dispersed and I myself, as my house or my room was near the gate, I met Mr Mthembu. I would say about five minutes after we arrived in the hostel the soldiers' vehicles which we saw at the robots arrived at the place. If I remember well they did ask Mr Mthembu as to whether all the inmates of the hostel are inside the hostel. I think Mr Mthembu said: "Yes, they are all in".

They asked that because they said they saw a group of people which crossed the road and they thought maybe they were hiding on the grass behind the hostel. They said we must be watchful because they will try and search for those people whom they thought hid behind the hostel.

They said they will get something that will give them enough light to see all the place. After that I went back to my room and slept.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is this Mthembu you're referring to?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Moses Mthembu.

MR SIBANYONI: Who said you should disperse before the police have arrived, when you were at the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: I think it is Mr Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: At that stage, were you working at some firm?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I was a worker.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go to your work the next day?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I went to work.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack, did you see that goods that were taken in Boipatong were burnt inside kwaMadala Hostel?

MR KHANYILE: All I can say about ...[indistinct] is that as we were coming back to the hostel people were carrying goods like TV's but when those goods were burnt or when the instruction was given that they should be burnt I wasn't present.

MR STRYDOM: We were handed an affidavit this morning, an unsigned document which purports to be an affidavit of Andries Nosenga ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, just before you get to that affidavit.

Did anyone tell you that you must now leave Boipatong and return to the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: At the time when the group was busy, the other group which went towards Slovo Park, which I thought it might have reached Slovo Park, we saw it coming towards us and we joined them and went back.

CHAIRPERSON: This group that had been to Slovo Park, how did you know that they were now leaving Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: When they were turning and coming back they were coming along the same street we were in, so as they were coming up we came and met them and then we agreed that we should go.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we to understand you as saying that you entered Boipatong from the one side and then you went through the houses stoning them, stabbing one man, chasing the others until you reached the other side of the township?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You may return to the affidavit.

MR STRYDOM: I just want to return to what happened inside Boipatong. You said that you stabbed one person, you saw that other people also stabbed this person. Apart from that incident where there was a specific attack on a person, did you see other attacks on persons?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, the attack continued. Even if I wouldn't say I did see people doing anything because others went into the houses. All that I saw was what was happening outside where we were running, following these other people who were retreating, where we were breaking the windows and there were some sound of rifles.

MR STRYDOM: You said there were sounds of rifles, did you hear many shots or just a few?

MR KHANYILE: I would say rifles or guns were being fired.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see a person die in Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: Referring to the one I stabbed, I wouldn't say I saw him dying, I would say that the others stabbed him as I was running after those who were running away, he might have died.

MR STRYDOM: But apart from this specific person, did you see any other person who was shot and died or who was stabbed and died in Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: One person that I think I've see who was stabbed was the one who was stabbed by Victor Mthembu.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know in relation to the township and the streets, where this took place? If you can't name a street's name, did it happen early on during the attack or later?

MR KHANYILE: When I look back I would say it's about a short period of time, seven to ten minutes after the attack, while we were running after the people that were retreating.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the applicants before this Committee, do you remember the names of any other people in that group that were with you when the attack took place?

MR KHANYILE: I would like to explain. Even those who are in the hall, the only people I saw are two among them. That they were present I heard from them. The persons I saw was Victor Mthembu and also Nanamshlopeki Shabango. Those who are not present here, there was one known by the name of Gobi.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the name of the person that you've just mentioned?

MR KHANYILE: I knew him as Gobi. Another one was Ephraim Makasana, and another one who was know to me by the name of Jumbluti, and the other one was known as Mfana Futi, and another one by the name of Holi, another was Tzwee.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be the same person who was a member of the Youth Committee?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct. Another one was Mexlendo Damiheza, and another one known as Mxena. The others I just know them facially but I don't know their names because in kwaMadala people will be flocking the hostel, each and everybody running away from the township. As a person who was working most of the time I didn't know most of the people in the hostel, I just knew them facially but I didn't know their names. Those are all that I can still remember.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember - Chairperson, will this be a convenient stage to take the adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still going to be long?

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's finish then.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

At that time, did you know a person by the name of Andries Nosenga?

MR KHANYILE: I don't know the Maseka that I know. I know someone by the name of ...[intervention]

MR STRYDOM: Matanzima, is that what you're saying?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, Matanzima Masenga. If you are referring to that one, that is the only one that I know.

MR STRYDOM: Now the person you are referring to now, did you see him on the night of the attack?

MR KHANYILE: No, I didn't see him, however he is a person I happen to know as Matanzima. I know him or knew him because when he arrived at the hostel he was someone who was sent to do some reconnaissance as to how bombs could be planted inside the hostel. I've heard some rumours after he was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was he supposed to plant these bombs?

MR KHANYILE: The ANC people had a problem with entering and attacking kwaMadala Hostel therefore they had to use him as a person who was going infiltrate Inkatha and join as a member while he was to be used to plant the bombs.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you hear that?

MR KHANYILE: I heard it from, we were in a meeting which occurred at kwaMadala Hostel.

MR STRYDOM: This meeting you're referring to, did it take place before or after the attack on Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: Even if I don't remember well, it was before the attack.

MR STRYDOM: During that time, did you know a person by the name Victor Kezuas, he's also got a nickname: "Katsisi"?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I was ...[indistinct] close to him.

MR STRYDOM: That night of the attack on Boipatong, was he present?

MR KHANYILE: As a person who was always arrested now and then, I would say he was in jail at that time.

MR STRYDOM: On the night of the attack, did you see any vehicle - if I can rephrase, so-called Hippo vehicle picking up people and taking them into Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: That never happened.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Themba Mabote?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, very well.

MR STRYDOM: They night of the attack did you see him?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, he was present.

MR STRYDOM: Did he partake in the attack?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know how he got to Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: He was in the group, one of the group.

MR STRYDOM: Did he have a firearm in his possession at that stage?

MR KHANYILE: It looks like he had a 9mm gun.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Celo Hunter Mzozo?

MR KHANYILE: I don't know whether you are referring to Hunter Celo Ndlovu or was someone else?

MR STRYDOM: No, I said that, maybe not in that sequence but that's the person I'm referring to. Do you know him?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I know him.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see him on the night of the 17th of June partaking in the attack?

MR KHANYILE: I didn't see him.

MR STRYDOM: Now I want to return to what happened after the attack. Did you see Mr Themba Xhosa at the hostel after the attack?

MR KHANYILE: He came a few days after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the question not directed at whether Themba Xhosa was present at the hostel on the night of the attack? Was that your question?

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson, I made reference to what happened after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR STRYDOM: Ja.

END OF TAPE - POSSIBLE WORD LOSS

MR KHANYILE: Even if I won't know the exact reason for visiting the place, what I can remember is that we had a problem because we couldn't, we were not able to go to the shops because the whole kwaMadala Hostel was surrounded by police, therefore life wasn't good in the hostel. He was the one who could go and talk to the police when we want to talk to them or when they want to talk to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the police preventing the residents of kwaMadala Hostel from going to the shops?

MR KHANYILE: I don't understand when you say: "protecting them" or "stopping them from going to the shops"?

CHAIRPERSON: It means: "preventing them".

MR KHANYILE: From Tuesday, Thursday the 18th of June, anyone who was a resident at kwaMadala Hostel wasn't allowed to go out of the hostel until the following Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was preventing the people from going out?

MR KHANYILE: The kids?

MR LAX: Sorry, did you say: "the kids"?

MR KHANYILE: Will you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] the 18th of June, no residents of kwaMadala Hostel were allowed out of the hostel. What I want to know is, who was preventing the residents from leaving the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: The police.

MR STRYDOM: Thinking back at this stage, what are your feelings about the attack that took place on the 17th of June 1992?

MR KHANYILE: All I can say is that the time when there was an attack at Boipatong, I wouldn't say that time I was happy about it because I convinced myself that the time has come for me to pay revenge but after a few days, I would say two days, after hearing that children and women were killed I felt very sorry and disappointed.

MR STRYDOM: Do you still have those feelings?

MR KHANYILE: No, Mr Strydom, I no longer feel the same. All I can say is that after the incident I was committed to peace because I would say that there are so many things that I have done from that time up to today which we efforts to reconcile the ANC and the IFP, especially in the hostels.

I would say I would even have witnesses who are not members of my organisation and who might come direct from the ANC, who can give evidence on these efforts of trying to reconcile people towards a peaceful situation because after coming out from prison I was elected as a leader within the IFP. I used that position to bring about peace.

To add, I don't think there is anyone who knew that IFP members who entered the Sebokeng Hostel and that they could enter Kwamasiza Hostel and that people who were resident at Sebokeng can enter kwaMadala Hostel, but because of my commitment together with my brothers working together, that had happened.

MR STRYDOM: Is there anything else you want to add to your application at this stage?

MR KHANYILE: I would like to ask permission to say this, especially to the relatives, the family victims. I would say we, the African people, we were unlucky because when we received politics we were taught that anyone who doesn't agree with you is an enemy and must be killed.

I would say that I would like to ask for forgiveness for all that I've done. I didn't do these things intentionally. I would say what was difficult at the time was that there was lawlessness in the country, the government in charge was not in the position to protect the people of this country and therefore each and every person took the law into his or her own hands. I'm saying this because many IFP followers were killed at Vaal during the day, many IFP families were burnt during daylight. We reported that daily and during the night to the police, however even up to today not even a single person was charged for such crimes. Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, that is my evidence in chief.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the lunch adjournment now and we will return at a quarter past two.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, may I remember you are still under oath to speak the truth.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, have you concluded your examination in chief?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Berger, have you decided who is going to start?

MR BERGER: I'm going to start Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that Miss Cambanis would want to be excused at 3 o'clock.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes, Chair, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you want to put questions now before you leave?

MS CAMBANIS: No, thank you Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] before you proceed, so that we can think about this. A reference was made to the contents of the unsworn statement and to that extent I don't think there will be any problem in cross-examination on the statement.

My understanding is that because it has already been referred to, although not directly but indirectly, there would not be any issue as to its being used for the purposes of cross-examination.

Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I won't object if that statement is put to this witness for his comments.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I don't think there's any difficulty in that Mr Chairman. Insofar as it may form part of an amnesty application. It's been referred to and that confidentiality can be waived by the Committee in the interests of pursuing the full facts that can be put to the witness, so there is no prejudice.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. If I could just place on record that the documents which we received and which we made the Committee - no, no, I just wanted to say this, we don't have the full application for amnesty. It might well be, and for that we would rely on Mr Prior and his team, it might well be that the unsworn affidavit was annexed, it seems to have been annexed, to an application for amnesty. The application for amnesty ought to have been sworn to and so then this would have been an annexure to the application for amnesty, if I'm correct. I don't know, perhaps Mr Prior can just assist.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I just briefly say, according to Mr van Rensburg in Cape Town who was the analyst preparing this matter, the application as we have it before us is incomplete, although the TRC had the completed version as it. The affidavit unsigned and unattested was received at some other stage but was not annexed to the initial application.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let's proceed.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Khanyile, when did you first decide to apply for amnesty?

MR KHANYILE: I can't remember the exact time but I think it's a long time ago.

MR BERGER: You were convicted in 1994.

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: At the time of your conviction, had you decided to apply for amnesty?

MR KHANYILE: After I was convicted or before I was convicted, can you clarify?

MR BERGER: At the time when you were convicted, and let me be specific, you were sentenced on the 9th of June 1994.

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: At the time when you were sentenced, the 9th of June 1994, had you already decided to apply for amnesty?

MR KHANYILE: No, I hadn't yet decided because I didn't know anything about amnesty.

MR BERGER: As at the 9th of June 1994, do I understand you correctly, you were not even considering the question of amnesty?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: When did you consider the question of amnesty for the first time?

MR KHANYILE: After we were convicted our lawyers explained to us about the amnesty.

MR BERGER: When was that?

MR KHANYILE: I would say, if my memory serves me well, it was in 1996 or 1995, I don't remember well.

MR BERGER: And when did you take a decision that you were going to apply for amnesty?

MR KHANYILE: Even if I don't remember well, but the lawyers did tell us that, specifically on the day we decided to go and apply for amnesty, they informed us that we have to go and apply for amnesty because the closing date is near. All I know is that it was just before the closing of the amnesty application.

MR BERGER: At that time where were you?

MR KHANYILE: I was at Khayelitsha Hostel, called Ethlatin.

MR BERGER: Which Province is that in?

MR KHANYILE: It's here at Sebokeng.

MR BERGER: Was that in 1995, 1996 or 1997?

MR KHANYILE: As I've explained before, between 1995 and 1996, I don't remember exactly what year it was.

MR BERGER: Why did it take you until the 29th of January 1998 before you signed your amnesty application?

MR KHANYILE: Firstly, I didn't know much about the amnesty. After I've agreed with my lawyers that I'm going to ask for amnesty, that's all I could do.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, my question is simply this: if you informed your lawyers in 1995 or 1996 that you wish to apply for amnesty, why did it take you until January 1998 before you signed your application for amnesty?

MR KHANYILE: My answer was Mr Berger, at the time when I agreed with my lawyers that I'm going to apply for amnesty I left it in their hands to do what was supposed to be done because they know the procedure.

MR BERGER: Do I understand you correctly, that you cannot explain the delay?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, if there has been a delay I think it is with the lawyers, it is not me, I didn't know anything about it.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you were always available from 1995 until 1998 to sign an application for amnesty?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, would please have a look at page 93 of the bundle in front of you? If you look from page 93 through to 95, that is your application, who filled it out?

MR KHANYILE: The questions and the answers in this application, I would say I gave the answers, the signature on the papers is mine.

MR BERGER: So the words used on page 93, 94 and 95 in answer to the various questions, those are your words?

MR KHANYILE: If they're written the way I've stated them, yes, that's true.

MR BERGER: Well have they been read to you at any time and translated to you?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And the words that are contained in that document are words that you agree with?

MR KHANYILE: If the Interpreter who explained to me that this is what was written on the paper, yes, I agree with that.

MR BERGER: Then page 96 and 97, are those also your words?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

MR BERGER: You're lawyers asked you certain questions, in particular question 9 and question 10 and these are the answers that you gave, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Is it correct also that the answers from page 100 to page 102 are your answers, those are your words?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, as I've already explained to you Sir, that if the Interpreter who was interpreting for me was what is written on the paper, I would say all that is written in this application are my words.

MR BERGER: Now at page 96, in answer to question 9(a)(1) you said:

"The attack on Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992 when 46 people were killed, public violence was committed and at least 17 people were injured"

... are the acts for which you seek amnesty. You went on to say:

"For further information, attached hereto is the following"

The first thing you attached was the charge sheet and the second thing you attached was the Judgment of the Trial Judge on the merits of the criminal case. You attached two other documents but they are not relevant for present purposes. Do I understand what you have done correctly, that you have attached the Judgment of the Judge as further information of what you did on that night in Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: I will try to explain with regard to the criminal case because you've mentioned the Judgment. What I said in Pretoria was said in the purpose of defending myself to be acquitted, and what I am saying here today is the truth.

MR BERGER: I understand from you that you lied in Pretoria, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Would I also be correct to say that the evidence which the State led against you in Pretoria, which you denied then but you now admit, as being correct?

MR KHANYILE: All I can say is that the evidence I gave in Pretoria, the only thing that is true is that I was involved but any other evidence given by me was false.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, perhaps you've misunderstood me. In Pretoria - let's take it step by step, in Pretoria you told the court that you were not involved but the State witnesses told the court that you were involved. You know admit, am I correct, that the State witnesses were correct and you were telling lies?

MR KHANYILE: I don't know whether the Interpreter is giving the right interpretation, but what I'm saying is that whatever was said, any evidence that was given concerning me, the only thing that is true is that I was there when the attack took place. However, whatever evidence I gave, that I did that and that, was not true. The truth is what I'm saying today.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just one second Mr Berger.

Mr Khanyile, maybe you're not understanding Mr Berger properly - carry on Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, when you gave evidence in Pretoria you told the Judge that you were not involved in the attack, that was a lie, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: The State witnesses in Pretoria told the court that you were involved in the attack, that was the truth, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Am I correct then to assume that you now accept what the State witnesses told the court in Pretoria against you, you now accept that that is the truth?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I will try to explain in this way. Many things have been said by the State witnesses against me, some of which was not true. I'm saying the only thing that I think they were telling the truth about is that I was involved in the attack at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: When the State witnesses said that in Pretoria, you said that they were liars, am I correct?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct, I said that.

MR BERGER: Now you say they were telling the truth in that respect but they were not telling the truth in respect of other things which you did during the attack, is that right?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: What in particular do you dispute?

MR KHANYILE: They said a lot of things about me. All that the State witnesses were saying, they were just pointing at anybody whom they knew. To give an example, Mr Qambelani Buthelezi was sentenced to 18 years but he doesn't even know exactly what was happening at Boipatong. However, State witnesses said he was involved and he did get himself involved in the attack. As a person who was staying with me in the same house, and a person whom I left while he was sick in bed, and when I came back from Boipatong I found him in the house sleeping. I'm trying to say Mr Berger, that the State witnesses said a lot of things which were not true.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, I didn't ask ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, perhaps to shorten this, would you please indicate to us what it is that the State witnesses said often concerning you and which was not the truth?

Did you understand the question?

MR KHANYILE: I have a problem, I think the Interpreter has given me the impression that it was directed to the lawyer, can you please repeat it for me?

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us that, repeatedly I think you have, that the State witnesses lied in certain respects, that is in regard to what you were alleged to have done at Boipatong. Would you just give us an indication of those respects in which you say the State witnesses lied?

MR KHANYILE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand the question?

MR KHANYILE: Yes. Firstly, if I remember well there were about three or four State witnesses and all of them said different things, contradicting evidence about me. One of them said I was holding a spear, which is true. The other one said I was holding an AK47, which is not true. I don't remember, the other one seemed to have said I was holding a gun and of which it was not true. If I remember well one of the witnesses said I personally, when we met with the police, as he was speaking in Afrikaans I don't remember what he said about talking to the white people or the police.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Khanyile, what I don't understand is this, when you answered a question in the form about the things you did in Boipatong, you said:

"For further information I annexe a copy of the Judgment"

Now at page 304 of the second bundle, which is page 3752 of the Judgment, the Judge in dealing with you - you were accused number 58, am I correct?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: The Judge first of all spoke about the evidence of Bojozi who, as you correctly said, first of all said that you were armed with an assegai and a kierrie but then later conceded that he couldn't remember how you were armed. Then the Judge goes on to deal with the evidence of Mr Moloi who said that you picked up an AK47 in the stadium and the Judge appears to accept that evidence. What I want to know is why you annexed this as providing further details about y our participation if you don't accept that it's the truth?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, I will say it was by mistake that it was included. I wasn't aware that that was written, what you are saying was written there.

MR BERGER: The Judge further went on to recount the evidence of Mr Moloi, again which the Judge apparently accepted. Mr Moloi said that you came to call people in their rooms, telling them to go to the stadium that night. You told people to put white lappies around their heads and you handed out the Ntelezi, is that also wrong?

MR KHANYILE: I would say a lot of those things are not true, I mean evidence that was accepted by the Judge. As I've already given an example of Mr Buthelezi who was sentenced to 18 years and who was said to be present during the attack, fortunately he wasn't there and I would say the Judge made a lot of mistakes.

MR BERGER: Did you call people from their rooms telling them to go to the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: I don't know under what rank or position I had the power to go around and call people ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just hold it. Mr Interpreter, we can't hear you, maybe you forgot to press the button. Please just repeat that answer.

MR KHANYILE: I'm trying to explain to Mr Berger that people won't understand why a person like me should go out and call them to come out because I didn't have any rank or position or mandate to call them out. All that I know is that at the kwaMadala Hostel we normally called through an announcement on a speaker.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] so that we can make

...[inaudible] would you please answer yes or no? Do you understand that?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] for you to elaborate, I'm sure that your counsel will take that opportunity in re-examination, to request you to explain.

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can help this Committee by confining yourself to the answer. Can we take it that your answer now is that: no, you did not call the people to the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct, I didn't call people.

MR BERGER: Who did call people over the loudspeaker to the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: I didn't see the person speaking, I just heard the sound.

MR BERGER: You didn't recognise the person's voice, you didn't know whose voice it was?

MR KHANYILE: I would like to explain Mr Berger. This is not a speaker, I would say in Zulu it's a trumpet which you blow and we as inmates at kwaMadala Hostel, when we hear such a trumpet it means that we all should go to the stadium.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that you never told people to tie white lappies around their heads?

MR KHANYILE: I didn't.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that you never handed out the Ntelezi?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I never gave the Ntelezi.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that you never gave any specific instructions to Mr Moloi about what should happen if the police should stop you?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: So therefore there is nothing in the Judgment on the merits which provides further information about what you did in Boipatong on the night of the massacre, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: The only help is that I was involved, it says I was involved, I was there.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, what I want to put to you is, and this is in the light of your answer previously that the annexures which are referred to on page 96 ought not to have been referred to, you said it was a mistake. What I want to put to you is that page 96 and 97 are not your words, that in fact they were composed by someone else.

MR KHANYILE: What appears here is what I told them.

MR BERGER: And another reason why I want to suggest to you that these are not your words is because these very same words are annexed to each and every application for amnesty, other than Mr Mthembu's, Mr Victor Mthembu's. Everyone else has got exactly the same words. Surely you didn't all say exactly the same thing?

MR KHANYILE: I will see, I don't know what is written in my brother's applications. It is probable that we would say the same things because when we were doing all this we were together.

MR BERGER: When was that when you were all together?

MR KHANYILE: I'm referring to the incident of the attack.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, Honourable Chairperson, may I be excused at this time please?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ma'am, thanks.

MS CAMBANIS EXCUSED

MR BERGER: When you gave instructions to your lawyers, the answers to the questions for amnesty, were you on your own or were you together with your other co-applicants?

MR KHANYILE: I was with the other applicants.

MR BERGER: And where was this done, where you gave your answers?

MR KHANYILE: It was at Khayelitsha Hostel.

MR BERGER: And all the applicants who are presently in jail, they were present with you at Khayelitsha Hostel when you gave these answers?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember well not all of us were there. I don't know who was there and who was not there exactly.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Khanyile, I'm going to move off now from this point but what I want to put to you is that each and every application of those who were in jail and of those who are out on bail is identical and what I want to suggest to you is that these are not your words, that they were drafted by someone else. You can comment if you want.

MR KHANYILE: That will not be true.

MR BERGER: The people who you named as being involved in the attack, you named Mr Victor Mthembu, how was he armed?

MR KHANYILE: He was armed with a spear. If I remember well I saw the spear for the first time when he stabbed someone.

MR BERGER: So the State witness who said that Mr Victor Mthembu was armed with a 9mm pistol would be incorrect?

MR KHANYILE: That's not true.

MR BERGER: And again that is another mistake by the Judge in his Judgment?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Did you see Mr Thomas Lukhozi?

MR KHANYILE: I know Thomas Lukhozi, not Thomas Khosi.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Berger said Lukhozi.

MR KHANYILE: I think I do have a problem with the Interpreter, sometimes I don't get the full interpretation or I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: With the interpretation would you please let us know because it is very essential that the questions are accurately conveyed to you, and what is conveyed from you to us is a reflection of what you've said. Do you understand that?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I understand you. I can say that sometimes as I speak I'm speaking the true Zulu, I don't know exactly the kind of Zulu that she is using, it's a Zulu that is used commonly within this area. I am used to the KwaZulu Natal Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: We do understand that there may well be those differences but we want to emphasise is that if you don't understand what the interpreter is saying please let us know.

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I understand. What the problem is, is when the answer is given to you I wouldn't be able to know whether that is a true reflection of what I've said.

CHAIRPERSON: You can rest assured that we do understand what you are saying.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, did you see Mr Thomas Lukhozi on the night of the attack?

MR KHANYILE: I didn't see him.

MR BERGER: Isn't it so that Mr Lukhozi was one of the leaders of the attackers?

MR KHANYILE: My personal knowledge is that there were two leaders. Sorry I couldn't get the names.

MR BERGER: Who were the two leaders?

MR KHANYILE: It was Bhekinkosi Mkhize and Busiso Damarra Chonco.

MR BERGER: Do you know that Mr Bojozi and Mr Lukhozi were good friends?

MR KHANYILE: I don't know.

MR BERGER: When was the first time that you saw Mr Victor Mthembu that night?

MR KHANYILE: I saw Victor Mthembu when we were right inside Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Were you in a group with Mr Victor Mthembu?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And who else was in this group?

MR KHANYILE: Those whom I can remember is Mr Mthembu, Mr Shabango, Ghobi, Holi, Tzwee and Mfana Futi, Mehlondo Damiheza, Ephraim Makasana and another one known by the name of Gina and Themba Mabote and Damarra Chonco. Those are the only people I can still remember. They were people who were with me at Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these individuals that you've just mentioned in the same group in which you and Mr Mthembu were?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And as I understand your evidence Mr Khanyile, it was quite a large group that you and Mr Mthembu were in, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Can you tell the Committee where Gobi is today?

MR KHANYILE: I now have a problem with the interpretation. You are saying Gobi and I said Ghobi.

MR BERGER: Well, I'll ask you again then, do you know where Ghobi is today?

MR KHANYILE: I would say I normally meet him in town but I don't know exactly where he stays.

MR BERGER: How was he armed?

MR KHANYILE: I don't remember. It looked like he was holding a knopkierrie.

MR BERGER: Did you see him attacking anyone?

MR KHANYILE: I remember regrading the person who was stabbed by Victor Mthembu, he was part of the group which was hitting and stabbing at that man.

MR BERGER: Besides that, did you see him attacking anyone else?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR BERGER: Let me try and short-circuit this. Of all the other people who you named, Makasana, Jambluti, Mfana Futi, Holi or Gholi, Tzwee, Miheza, Gina, Mabote and Damarra Chonco, are any of them still alive?

MR KHANYILE: I would say personally only two of them passed away, it's Chonco and Themba Mabote.

MR BERGER: Of all the others, do you know where they are presently?

MR KHANYILE: I would like to explain a bit. At the time I was arrested after the attack, I stayed about six months in prison without bail. I got bail during December and when I came back I found that kwaMadala Hostel had been pulled down or demolished, most of the people were no longer staying there. Only the people who were working at the ISCOR firm were around. Unfortunately some of them I last saw before I got arrested.

It just happened that I do meet them sometimes, for example I mentioned that I met Ghobi and another one whom I've mentioned before Jambluti. Those are the only people that I met. Others since they were not working, I think they might have gone back to their homes in KwaZulu Natal. Those who were staying in the township might have gone back to their respective homes in the townships. I don't know exactly where they are staying in the townships.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, the short answer to my question is you don't know where any of those people are today, am I correct?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And a short answer please, were any of them accused with you in the criminal trial?

MR KHANYILE: The person that I still remember is Jambluti. I heard he is staying at Zone 7.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, my question to you was, were any of them co-accused with you in the criminal trial?

MR KHANYILE: It looks like I didn't understand. I would say that when we were arrested we were 64 and some were taken out and this Jambluti I'm talking about is one of the persons who was released.

CHAIRPERSON: Well apart from Jambluti, were there any of the individuals who were in your group who were co-accused with you?

MR KHANYILE: I don't really understand, do you mean those who were released or those who were convicted?

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us about the people who were convicted with you and the lawyer will continue to find out exactly what happened to them.

MR KHANYILE: Those whom I can still remember are the people who are here. One person with whom we were convicted, it was Matanda Mgubane, Swelimuti Msane and one known as Mskubu, another one known as Matlauvo, Hunter Celo Ndlovu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, what you wanted to find out was, of the people in the group that he mentioned, right?

MR BERGER: The person I wanted to find out, in the group that he mentioned, correct, were any of them co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, listen to the question.

MR KHANYILE: Will you please repeat the question, I don't understand the question.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is off.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us that you were in a particular group which consisted, amongst others, Tshabangu, Ghobi, Tzwee, Vanana Futi, Mhlendota Miheza, Jambluti and others, do you recall that?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Berger wants to find out is whether of these individuals who were in your group, were any of them arrested together with you or were any of them your co-accused.

MR KHANYILE: I understand. The only person whom I could say was present ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We know about Jambluti, right.

MR KHANYILE: Themba Mabote was one of them, he passed away. He is the only person whom I can remember, without mentioning the two who are right in front of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mfana Futi?

MR KHANYILE: Mfana Futi was never arrested together with the others. All the others were not arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KHANYILE: Ephraim Makasani was arrested. I just forget he was one of the persons who were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Tshabangu?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, he's present here.

CHAIRPERSON: Ghobi?

MR KHANYILE: Ghobi was never arrested, he was a State witness. I would say they were arrested but they were released as State witnesses, Ghobi and Holi.

CHAIRPERSON: And Tzwee?

MR KHANYILE: Tzwee was never arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Damarra Chonco?

MR KHANYILE: Wasn't arrested, Damarra was not arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, the people whom you mentioned who were convicted, I put it to you were not convicted. The only people who were convicted are the applicants presently before the Committee ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Berger, I didn't understand Mr Khanyile to say they were convicted. I think he indicated that persons like Ghobi and Holi for example were arrested and then they turned State witnesses.

MR BERGER: I'm not referring to those people Chairperson. There was a whole group of people before that whom the witness said had been convicted but I can move on, it's not essential.

CHAIRPERSON: But which group are you referring to, are you not referring to this group that he has just mentioned?

MR BERGER: No, not that group.

Mr Khanyile, there was a group of people whose names you mentioned, not the group that we've been dealing with, not the applicants but another group of people.

CHAIRPERSON: Please give us the names of the people in that group that you say he mentioned.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the witness went too fast for me, I never got the names down so I can't assist.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I can assist with the reference to the names that were mentioned. The are written here. The name Skubi, Masani, Matasani and Hunter Celo Ndlovu. I don't know if that's the group Mr Berger is referring to. I'm not sure if I got all the names but those I've written down.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, and the other one was Matanda Mgubani. That was one name also mentioned of that group.

MR BERGER: Thank you, yes.

And the point I was making Mr Khanyile is those people were not convicted.

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, when I gave you these names I was answering your question where you asked me how many people were arrested with me. I even asked for clarification as to whether you're referring to people who were convicted or people who were arrested.

MR BERGER: Let me leave that group. The group of people that you say were part of your group, I'm now talking about Tshabangu, Ephraim Makasana and the others, did any of them have a gun which you saw then firing?

MR KHANYILE: People whom I saw holding the guns or rifles were two, it was Damarra and Themba Mabote. Even if there were people who were also armed with guns or arms ...[intervention]

MR LAX: There is no translation in English of any of this.

INTERPRETER: There might be a technical problem, you were on air.

MR LAX: Please repeat the answer Mr Interpreter, we can't hear a word.

MR KHANYILE: People whom I saw right in Boipatong who were armed with guns or firearms were two people, Mr Damarra Chonco and Themba Mabote. There might be others who were armed with guns or rifles but I didn't see them.

MR BERGER: You were asked about Mr Andries Nosenga and you said you know a Mr Matanzima Nosenga, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: I said if it is someone who is called by the name of Matanzima, it's true I know him, it's just the surname that I don't know.

MR BERGER: When did you first meet him at kwaMadala?

MR KHANYILE: Even if I don't remember the exact time, what I can remember is we were called to the stadium and we're to be told about him.

MR BERGER: When was that?

MR KHANYILE: It was before the attack. Excuse me I want to rectify there. It was before the attack at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Who addressed you at the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: Even if I'm not very sure in what I'm going to say, I would say Prince Vanana Zulu who was present on that day.

MR BERGER: Was this a meeting of all the residents in the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: So if I understand you correctly, at some stage before the attack all the residents of the hostel were called together in the stadium, addressed by Vanana Zulu who said that this man Matanzima is a spy for the ANC?

MR KHANYILE: I've clearly explained that it was Mr Zulu who was conducting the meeting. He is the person who told us or explained to us about Mr Matanzima.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you told about Matanzima?

MR KHANYILE: We were told that it has been established that since Matanzima is inside the hostel, he has been sent to do a reconnaissance as to how bombs could be planted in the hostel.

MR BERGER: How long before the attack was this, a month, two months, a year?

MR KHANYILE: I would say approximately two months.

MR BERGER: And what happened to Matanzima after this meeting?

MR KHANYILE: Matanzima was taken. The decision was taken that he should be taken to a conference of the IFP to explain his involvement in the hostel.

MR BERGER: And was there such a conference of the IFP?

MR KHANYILE: Which conference are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: Well you've just told us that it was decided that Matanzima should be taken before the conference of the ANC to explain about his activities.

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Just for the record Chairperson, you said ANC and I believe the witness said IFP.

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Were you present when Mr Matanzima was called before the IFP to explain his actions?

MR KHANYILE: I last heard about it when they were talking about him at the stadium, whether he was taken to Ulundi or not I don't know, I didn't go there.

MR BERGER: Were you ever given a briefing or did anyone ever report back to you on the actions that had been taken by the IFP against Matanzima?

MR KHANYILE: I would say since Matanzima came back and said he had fully joined the IFP as a real member, it looked like they sat down with him and talked with him. I don't know what happened, I thought they brought him back.

MR BERGER: So ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the IFP?

MR KHANYILE: As I've explained before, the decision was taken by Matanzima himself when it was decided they would take him to the conference. I don't know but I've seen is that those people who went for the conference, they came back with him, so we were not called, briefed as to what was said about him or what happened to him.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you mentioned that he had joined the organisation?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I heard, it was rumoured around that he has officially joined the IFP but that was not explained in a meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: You were told or you overheard that he had now joined the IFP?

MR KHANYILE: I heard.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, if I understand you correctly, after he was spoken to, or this is your understanding, after Matanzima was spoken to by the leadership of the IFP he was then accepted into the IFP as a full member, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: What I don't know is whether he was accepted at the conference or at kwaMadala Hostel, can you clarify for me?

MR BERGER: Well after he had gone to explain his apparent actions or his alleged actions about spying or carrying out secret activities for the ANC, he explained that, as far as you understood to the IFP leadership and then he returned to kwaMadala and the talk amongst people at kwaMadala was that Matanzima is now in the IFP as a full member of the IFP, would that be correct?

MR KHANYILE: I can say that what was said at the conference, whether he was called to explain something or he explained something, I don't know. All that I heard is that they are going with him to the conference and thereafter, later I was told that he has officially become a member of the IFP, that's all I heard.

MR BERGER: And after he had officially become a member of the IFP, Matanzima then returned to kwaMadala Hostel, correct?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it is true.

MR BERGER: So then at the time of the attack, I would be correct to say that Matanzima was an IFP member living in kwaMadala Hostel?

MR KHANYILE: Even if I can't confirm that to be the truth, I think it was like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, because we intend sitting until late, we intend taking a 15 minute break, so at an appropriate time would you indicate?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, could I just get an indication of how long after the tea break we're going to be sitting?

CHAIRPERSON: 5 o'clock.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps this would then be the appropriate point to take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a 15 minutes bread and we will come back at 4 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: (s.u.o.)

MR KHANYILE: Thanks.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (cont)

Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Khanyile, if we are talking about the same person, Mr Matanzima and Mr Nosenga, I want to tell you what in general terms he says in this document. He says that the police were involved to the extent he says, that police Casspirs or he says a police Casspir was used to transport some of the attackers, including himself into Boipatong. Now do you say that that is a lie?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, I would say even God knows police were not involved.

MR BERGER: It's not only Mr Nosenga who says this but members of the community who were in Boipatong the night of the attack saw police Casspirs or armed vehicles in Boipatong at the time of the attack, is that also not true?

MR KHANYILE: I would try to explain in this way. During the hearing of our case, our criminal case, we were also going to rely on the fact that we had police, however the disappointment was that 80% of the people from Boipatong denied that they did see police taking part in the attack.

All I can say is that at the time when all the statement or issues were discussed, it was just a political game.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is the answer to the question?

MR KHANYILE: The answer Mr Berger is what Matanzima said is lies.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Berger put to you was that Mr Matanzima is not the only person who is making the allegation that the police were involved, even the members of the community say that they saw police in Boipatong at the time of the attack, police vehicles inside Boipatong at the time of the attack, what do you say to that?

MR KHANYILE: My answer to that is that that is not true because I explained even before the Judge, residents of Boipatong denied that police were involved. Even the time when we got convicted it was denied that, it was not established that police were present.

MR BERGER: Did I understand you correctly Mr Khanyile, to say that during the criminal trial you were alleging, you meaning you and the accused, were alleging that there were police in Boipatong but the residents were saying that there were not, is that what you're saying?

MR KHANYILE: May you please repeat your question, I didn't understand.

MR BERGER: Did I misunderstand you or am I correct, that you said that at the time of the criminal trial you were claiming that there were police in Boipatong but the residents were saying that there were not?

MR KHANYILE: Let me try to explain, to clarify my answer. I said, during the trial even us were relying on that rumours that police were involved, however what surprised us is that during the time of evidence, when they were giving evidence and when people were asked whether they did see the police, it was discovered that they didn't see the police. Most people or witnesses said they saw the police after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anyone of the person who were accused ...[no English translation] tell the court that when they went into Boipatong the police were also present?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Khanyile, was it maybe part of your instructions to your lawyers to put it to the court that it was the police that attacked at Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: It looks like it's not clear. I never said police attacked the people at Boipatong, what I was trying to explain is that in answering Mr Berger's question when he said the community of Boipatong said that they saw police in Casspirs, when answering his question I said we as the accused at that time, we thought maybe that evidence might free us from the case because we were not supposed to be convicted if police were involved, not that I was saying we personally saw the police or that the police were there. I'm trying to say that the community said there were police.

MR BERGER: Not only do the community or certain people in the community say that there were police vehicles in Boipatong at the time of the attack, they go further to say that there were white men involved in the killing, involved in the attack, what do you say about that?

MR KHANYILE: That never happened.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Khanyile, can you really vouch for that or can you say you never saw it happen, you personally never saw it happen?

MR KHANYILE: I'm trying to explain that when we left kwaMadala Hostel we went into the Boipatong area and we got out of Boipatong, I never saw a white person.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, the point I'm trying to get across to you is that there is a difference when you say something never happened or when you say: "I never saw it happen".

MR KHANYILE: I would say I myself personally, I didn't see a white person on that day.

MR BERGER: Is it your evidence that all the attackers were people who had just before the attack gathered in the stadium of kwaMadala Hostel?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And when you were in the stadium, I take it you never saw any white men?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I didn't.

MR BERGER: According to ISCOR, there were approximately 430, if my figures are correct, residents in kwaMadala Hostel at the time of the attack, would that be right?

MR KHANYILE: My perception is that it's about 900 to 1000 residents or was. If you are referring specifically to workers who work at ISCOR, it might be true.

MR BERGER: Certain people who gave statements on behalf of the Defence Force said that at one stage they saw a crowd which they estimated at totalling approximately 500 people.

MR KHANYILE: That is their estimation. I said there were about 350 to 400.

MR BERGER: According to ISCOR, some of their employees saw a crowd which they estimated to be in the number of about 800 people.

MR KHANYILE: I don't know anything about that.

MR BERGER: So my question to you really is this, are you being honest when you say that all the people who formed part of the attackers came from kwaMadala or is it not the position that the attackers from kwaMadala were supplemented by others, in particular members of the police and in particular white men?

MR KHANYILE: As I've already explained Mr Berger, what you are saying is not true, even the almighty himself knows that.

MR BERGER: Is it correct Mr Khanyile, that Mr Vanana Zulu is also known and was also known at the time as Ntwana?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that he was the only person known as Ntwana in kwaMadala Hostel at that time?

MR KHANYILE: Even he's not, the only one referred to as Ntwana according to the King's tradition, when you're referring to Ntwana in the hostel probably you were referring to him.

MR BERGER: Who was Gateni?

MR KHANYILE: I don't know Gateni.

MR BERGER: Do you know anyone by the name of Gatcheni?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, one person whom I knew is called Gatcheni.

MR BERGER: And who was he?

MR KHANYILE: I only knew him as Gatcheni.

MR BERGER: Well could you tell the Committee what position Gatcheni held in kwaMadala at the time?

MR KHANYILE: He didn't hold any position. I think I've already mentioned those who held positions in that time.

MR BERGER: According to you Gatcheni was just another resident of kwaMadala Hostel?

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga says that the people - this in paragraph 6, the people who were in charge of the attack were Ntwana and he says here, Gateni but let's take it as Gatcheni.

MR KHANYILE: During the time of the attack, Ntwana was at home for two or one week. I don't know the whereabouts of Gatcheni at that time.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Khanyile, the difficulty I have with that answer is that Mr Victor Mthembu told the Committee the last time when he gave evidence, that he saw Mr Vanana Zulu Ntwana at the hostel on the 17th of June 1992.

MR KHANYILE: I wouldn't dwell much on Mr Mthembu's answers to the Committee, all that I know is what I'm saying can be confirmed by Mtwana himself and other residents of kwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: Well you see you told the Committee now that Mr Zulu had been away from the hostel for a week before the attack, correct?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I said it's about a week or two weeks, I'm not exactly sure as to whether it was a week or two weeks.

MR BERGER: Mr Zulu told the court when he gave evidence, that he was away from the hostel from the 5th of June until the 22nd of June.

MR KHANYILE: That might be the truth but I'm confirming what I'm saying, that he was not present.

MR BERGER: So are you then saying that Mr Victor Mthembu is not telling the truth when he said that he saw Mr Vanana Zulu catching a taxi away from the hostel on the, I think he said in the afternoon of the 17th of June 1992?

MR KHANYILE: I would say it's not true.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that both of you are incorrect? That in fact, well to one extent Mr Mthembu is correct that Mr Zulu was at the hostel on the 17th of June, he never went away and he was part of the attackers in Boipatong that night.

MR KHANYILE: What I'm saying is the truth that cannot be denied or contradicted.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee this morning, and I will quote you your words: that nothing happens or happened in kwaMadala Hostel without the knowledge of Mr Vanana Zulu.

MR KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Well when then was Mr Vanana Zulu informed that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: I didn't say that even if he's away in KwaZulu Natal he has to be informed, I was referring to incidents when he's inside kwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: You said: "There was nothing that would take place without consulting Mr Vanana Zulu, nothing", now I put it to you that it could not have happened that such an important decision as the decision to attack Boipatong could have taken without consulting Mr Vanana Zulu.

MR KHANYILE: That might be what you are thinking because what I said is when he is present all the reports are sent to him, I never explained that when he is not present he's normally given the message or consulted.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee about a meeting which was held three weeks before the attack on Boipatong, we're talking now about a meeting towards the end of May 1992, correct?

MR KHANYILE: You mean the first meeting?

MR BERGER: Yes.

MR KHANYILE: Even if I don't remember that it was on the exact date that you are mentioning, I would say that it was about three weeks before the attack.

MR BERGER: In other words it was at a time when, even on his own evidence, Vanana Zulu was in the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: I don't understand as to whom you are referring, the person who was giving evidence.

MR BERGER: Let's just go to the meeting which was held three weeks before the attack, Vanana Zulu was at that meeting, correct?

MR KHANYILE: ...[indistinct] was there.

MR BERGER: And at that meeting residents of kwaMadala complained to the leadership that they wanted to take action against the residents of Boipatong and the leadership said: "Leave it to us, we need to think about this"?

MR KHANYILE: What I can remember is, when the residents gave those complaints or raised the complaint to the leaders it was Mkhize who said: "You must leave it to the leaders since they've heard the issues". I'm not sure whether it was Damarra Mkhize but I should think it's Mkhize.

MR BERGER: Mr Victor Mthembu says that Mr Vanana Zulu and Mr Mkhize took a decision to attack the Vaal community, do you agree with that?

MR KHANYILE: It might be possible that I was not in that meeting.

MR BERGER: Mr Victor Mthembu goes further, he says: "The attack of the 17th of June in Boipatong was not approved by the IFP leadership",

do you agree with that?

MR KHANYILE: That will mean, or I would say that is from Mr Mthembu. To my knowledge it is that it was something that's been taken within or inside. I don't know whether the senior members of the organisation were involved.

MR BERGER: Do you agree or do you disagree with the statement by Victor Mthembu that the attack on the 17th of June was not approved by the IFP leadership?

MR KHANYILE: I don't understand when you say it was not approved by the IFP leaders. You are presenting the facts as if it was something where the leaders were sitting down and discussing and they're refusing to approve the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: It is being said that the attack was not approved by the IFP as an organisation, do you understand?

MR KHANYILE: I understand but I don't understand when you say it wasn't approved because it looks like it was something that was discussed and someone denied or didn't approve of what was being discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: It is said that Mr Mthembu said before the Committee that the attack at Boipatong was not approved by the IFP as an organisation, what do you say?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I would say it's correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu goes further and he says:

"All the residents of the kwaMadala Hostel were afraid of Chonco and they were forced to attend the meeting", do you agree with that?

MR KHANYILE: There somewhere I don't understand, you said they were forced to attend the meeting?

MR BERGER: Yes, that's what I've read to you.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said they were forced to go to the meeting?

MR BERGER: Yes, that's what I just read and I'm asking the witness if he agrees with that.

CHAIRPERSON: The Interpreter is talking about something totally, he's talking about the organisation.

It is said that people were forced to attend at meeting?

MR KHANYILE: Which meeting, do you mean the meeting to attack or any other meetings?

MR BERGER: Let's start with the meeting on the 17th of June, the meeting in the stadium. Were residents forced to attend that meeting?

MR KHANYILE: My perception of the situation at the time was that all the people who were at the stadium were there of their own free will. I was also one of them who was freely and voluntarily at the stadium.

MR BERGER: Was there any meeting of the residents of kwaMadala at which residents were forced to attend because they were afraid of Chonco?

MR KHANYILE: I don't know that.

MR BERGER: And finally, in this paragraph that I'm reading from, Mr Thembu said:

"Vanana Zulu knew about it but he went to his family. Either he knew that residents were forced to attend a meeting or he knew that the attack did not have the approval of the IFP leadership"

MR KHANYILE: I will not deny that. I don't know when Vanana Zulu and Mthembu discussed this, I personally don't know anything about that.

MR BERGER: You see my difficulty is this, on your own evidence Vanana Zulu was aware of the problems of the kwaMadala residents, I'm referring to the meeting of three weeks before the attack, he knew that the residents wanted action, he knew that the leadership had told the residents: "Leave it to us, we will think about this", and he either knew that people were being forced to attend a meeting on the 17th or he knew that the attack did not have the sanction of the IFP leadership, and you are saying that at that critical time Mr Vanana Zulu just left the hostel to go and stay with his family, can that possibly be right Mr Khanyile?

MR KHANYILE: I would like to explain to Mr Berger that it didn't mean if Vanana Zulu was not at kwaMadala Hostel nothing could happen, there were other leaders who would act in his position. That he left for his home knowing that there will be an attack, whether he didn't know, it's something that I don't know.

MR BERGER: And you see it goes further than that because Mr Vanana Zulu had a personal interest in at least one house in Boipatong and that was the house where his parents-in-law lived. At the time of attack Mr Zulu's parents-in-law were living in Boipatong. Are you saying that with knowledge of a possibility of an attack on Boipatong, Mr Vanana Zulu would have left whilst his family was in the township?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question you are putting to this witness?

MR BERGER: The question I'm putting to this witness is that there were a number of reasons, not least of them personal, why Mr Vanana Zulu would not have left the hostel at that critical time, and I'm putting to him that he is therefore protecting Mr Zulu when he says that Mr Zulu was not in charge of the attack and not present during the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that question?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] why he had to be there.

MR KHANYILE: What I'm trying to explain Mr Berger, is one thing and that is that during the attack at Boipatong, Mr Zulu was not present. As I said he was away for a week or about three weeks. The question of whether he knew or didn't know is something that I don't know, all that I know is that he was not present during the attack at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: The meeting three weeks before the attack, you say the leaders said: "Let us think about it". Then there was a meeting a week before the attack you say, that would have been on the 10th of June, at that meeting was there an instruction given that Boipatong had to be attacked?

MR KHANYILE: No, it wasn't given. What we were told is that we should be vigilant, that so and so should be attacked we were not told.

MR BERGER: Let me refer you to page 95, paragraph 11(b), now you've told the Committee that these are your words. You were asked to give particulars of the, relating to the orders or approval which you received in relation to the acts which you committed and this is what you said:

"An order was given by leaders of the IFP living in the kwaMadala Hostel, that Boipatong must be attacked. The orders were given on the 10th and the 17th of June 1992. The leaders were Mkhize and Chonco. Mkhize lives in the Khayelitsha Hostel"

Is that answer not correct Mr Khanyile?

MR KHANYILE: What is written there I can't confirm. That Mkhize is staying in Khayelitsha is not true, he was staying at kwaMadala Hostel. Also that we were told before the 17th that Boipatong should be attacked, that is not true, we were told on the 17th, on the day of the attack, that: "Today you are supposed to go and attack Boipatong".

MR BERGER: Why did you say that an instruction was given on the 10th of June 1992, if no such instruction was given?

MR KHANYILE: The instruction I'm referring to is that we were told that there will be an attack but Boipatong was not mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that? Was that the second meeting?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, the second meeting.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, I asked you whether these were your words, you say that they were read back to you and that they were correct. My question to you is, why did you say that instructions were given both on the 10th of June and on the 17th of June, that Boipatong must be attacked?

MR STRYDOM: I object to that question, that is not what is stated here. What is stated here is that, and I'm going to read it in Afrikaans:

'n Bevel deur leiers van die IFP, woonagtig in die kwaMadala Hostel, dat Boipatong aangeval moet word. Bevele is gegee op die 10de en 17de Junie"

It does not state that the order to attack Boipatong was given on the 10th and on the 17th of June.

CHAIRPERSON: Just come again?

MR STRYDOM: It's not stated here that the order to attack Boipatong was given on the 10th and the 17th of June. Orders were given on the 10th and 17th of June, that is what is stated here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, I'll ask you the question again, why did you state here in 11(b), that orders were given on the 10th and 17th of June 1992?

MR KHANYILE: What I'm trying to explain is that I said we were informed that there was a possibility of an attack on that day, I don't deny that. What I deny is that we were told that we were going to attack a specific place at a particular time.

MR BERGER: Let me ask you this, what instruction were you given on the 10th of June 1992?

MR KHANYILE: The instruction was that we should stay vigilant and be prepared and ready, that is all.

MR BERGER: Be prepared and ready for what Mr Khanyile?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, when they say: "Get ready", meaning that your arms or weapons should be next to you, even a young child will understand that.

MR BERGER: It means: get ready for an attack does it not?

MR KHANYILE: That's what I understood it to mean.

MR BERGER: And what did you understand or who did you understand was going to be the target of that attack?

MR KHANYILE: I didn't know exactly as to the particular which we were to attack because the whole Vaal was an enemy to us.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were given these instructions during the second meeting, namely that: "be prepared for the attack", did you think who was going to be the target of the pending attack?

MR KHANYILE: I would say even if I wasn't sure I thought Boipatong is one of the possible targets because that is one of the places where they were killing us.

MR BERGER: But it might not have been Boipatong, is that what you're saying, it could have been anywhere else?

MR KHANYILE: That's possible.

MR BERGER: Where else could there have been an attack?

MR KHANYILE: As I've explained, the whole Vaal wasn't treating us well.

MR BERGER: So as far as you were concerned you could quite equally have attacked Bophelong, Sharpeville, Sebokeng, any of those townships you could have attacked?

MR KHANYILE: That is also possible but I have already clarified that on those days or during those times, the people who were burning us with tyres were people from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: No the other townships, just Boipatong, is that what you're saying now?

MR KHANYILE: I said the whole Vaal was killing us, but on those days the people who were really busy killing us were people from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Which day or days are you referring to?

MR KHANYILE: I'm referring to the days towards the attack.

MR BERGER: Are you not forgetting another meeting Mr Khanyile, a meeting which was held on Sunday the 14th of June 1992 at kwaMadala Hostel?

MR KHANYILE: If Mr Berger can remind me what was said in the meeting I might remember.

MR BERGER: Well you've remember a meeting three weeks before the attack, you've remembered a meeting one week before the attack, do you know remember a meeting three or four days before the attack?

MR KHANYILE: I don't remember the meeting.

MR BERGER: Let me refresh your memory, it was a meeting addressed by Mr Themba Xhosa, do you remember it?

MR KHANYILE: I still don't remember such a meeting. To explain Mr Berger, I wasn't going to be able to remember all the meetings because some meetings happened while I was present, some while I was away.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, please speak up because I can't hear you.

MR KHANYILE: I was trying to explain to Mr Berger that some meetings occurred in my absence while some meetings occurred while I was present but I did attend all the meetings that were held at kwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: At some stage in your evidence you said that you never left kwaMadala Hostel, you never went into Boipatong, you stayed in kwaMadala Hostel, do you remember that?

MR KHANYILE: That's true.

MR BERGER: Now on the Sunday before the attack, that's the 14th of June, Themba Xhosa and a Mr Dlamini came to kwaMadala and addressed the people in the stadium and it was a meeting where only the men were present. Dlamini apparently opened the meeting and he said: "The meeting had been called because our people are dying". He said that this problem had been reported to Mangasutu Buthelezi. Themba Xhosa also addressed the meeting. I'm reading from an affidavit from Mr Victor Mthembu and this is what he says Themba Xhosa said:

"He was also angry at the killing of his people and he said: "if the people come and attack you, you are supposed to fight back and kill them'"

Surely Mr Khanyile, you remember this meeting?

MR KHANYILE: As I have already stated, I don't remember this particular meeting and it is clear that I wasn't present.

MR BERGER: How could you not have been present? Let's look at the context: you and the other men have been instructed to be on the alert for an attack, you understood that to mean an attack on the residents of Boipatong, you never went out of the hostel, you remained in the hostel, three days before the attack there is this meeting where important issues are being discussed, where were you on that Sunday preceding the attack?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, even if I can't remember exactly where I was on that particular day, I would like to explain that. The fact that I was staying at kwaMadala doesn't mean that I wasn't invited to visit other people or that I didn't have a girlfriend whom I could visit.

MR BERGER: What we know Mr Khanyile ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, it's about 5 o'clock, will you please wrap it up now?

MR BERGER: I'll wrap it up now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: What we know Mr Khanyile, is that on your own evidence you were in the hostel on that Sunday, correct?

MR KHANYILE: I never said that.

MR BERGER: But you said you never left the hostel, therefore you must have been there?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, I thought you said since I was staying at kwaMadala, I never went to Boipatong or other places. I was referring like, that you mean that I never went out of kwaMadala to go wherever I wished to go.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, I'll wrap it up now, you cannot tell the Committee where you were on Sunday the 14th of June, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: I believe Mr Berger, you yourself personally, if I were to ask you where were you on the 14th of June, you won't be able to answer that question because I think you only remember a day if there was a particular incident that's so ...[indistinct] to make you remember it.

MR BERGER: I take it Mr Khanyile, that the answer to my question is: yes, you cannot say where you were on Sunday the 14th of June 1992, am I correct?

MR KHANYILE: If I knew Mr Berger, I would have told you.

MR BERGER: I take that as a: "yes", and I put it to you that the reason that you do not want to admit that you were in this meeting of the 14th of June 1992 is because you know very well that the attack was discussed at that meeting and you want to protect Mr Themba Xhosa, isn't that correct?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, we were told that we are here to speak the truth but I can see that you are pulling me to a side where I have to lie and this is something that I'm not going to do.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps this would be an appropriate time.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn now for the day. We will resume tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

12-08-1998: Day 2

ON RESUMPTION

VINCENT KHANYILE: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (cont)

Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Khanyile, can you tell the Committee what was the event which promoted the attack? What was the event which occurred, which sparked the residents of kwaMadala to launch the attack on Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: What I can say is that lots of IFP members were killed in Boipatong. And also houses were demolished or burnt down, school children who were members of the IFP, have to stop schooling.

MR BERGER: My question to you is and perhaps there was no specific event, and if so, then you must say so. Was there a specific event which sparked the attack on Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: As I have explained, Mr Berger, the reason why the residents of Boipatong were attacked, it was because of their acts of killing us and also burning us.

Those are the reasons why we attacked them.

MR BERGER: Do I understand you correctly then, that there was no one specific event which sparked the attack, that it was a build up over time, would that be correct?

MR KHANYILE: Maybe I can try to explain it in this way. During those days of the attack at Boipatong, there were a lot of IFP members who were killed during those days.

Therefore I would say the killings of the IFP members at Boipatong, was over and above.

MR BERGER: Which people are you referring to specifically?

MR KHANYILE: Even if I can't remember all of them, one that I still remember Bongani Mbatha, the other one is Mbele, Mr Khumalo and also two young girls who were burnt. If I remember well their names were Nomvula and Martha.

Those are the people whom I can still remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, are you able to tell us how long before the attack on Boipatong, were these people killed?

MR KHANYILE: Even if I can't give a specific number, I will say it took about a week or two weeks.

MR BERGER: Now the person that you say Mr Mbatha that was killed, he was killed in January of 1992, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: I have already explained that I don't know the exact dates on which they were killed, but it was during those times.

Therefore I won't deny if you say that is the case.

MR BERGER: You gave evidence yesterday that you were present when Mr Mbatha was killed, but you also gave evidence to say that you never went into Boipatong, you never left the hostel.

How is it possible if you never left, if you never went into Boipatong that you could have witnessed the killing of Mr Mbatha?

MR KHANYILE: What I can say Mr Berger, as I said I might have a problem with the Interpreter, because we might not be having the same interpretation with some other words. When you say I left kwaMadala and went to the other place to me, it means leaving kwaMadala to go and stay somewhere, that is how I understood your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that Mr Khanyile never left the hostel at all, to go outside of the hostel, is that what you are putting to him?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, when he was giving his evidence in chief and I wasn't asking the questions, my learned friend asked him - Chairperson, can I answer the question that you put to me, first?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

MR BERGER: The witness said in his evidence in chief in response to the question whether he had any personal knowledge or personal experiences of attacks by comrades, his answer was no, I never left kwaMadala hostel for Boipatong.

That is what I am putting to the witness. If he never left kwaMadala hostel for Boipatong, then in my submission he couldn't have witnessed any attack on Mr Mbatha in Boipatong. That is what I am trying to put to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KHANYILE: What I tried to clarify is that I never said I never left, what I said is I never moved out of kwaMadala to stay at Boipatong. There is a difference there.

The question came to me, suggesting that I have moved out of kwaMadala hostel to stay at Boipatong. No question came to ask as to whether I left at one particular day from kwaMadala hostel to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, I am not going to argue with you, but that was not the question. In fact the question was asked by your counsel who asked you whether you, Mr Khanyile, had any personal experiences of attacks by people from Boipatong on you and your answer was no, I never left kwaMadala for Boipatong.

MR KHANYILE: It will mean that you didn't understand me.

MR BERGER: And your problems with the Interpreter only began under cross-examination, you never had any problems when you gave evidence in chief.

MR KHANYILE: I don't know whether you expect me to answer.

MR BERGER: What I am suggesting to you Mr Khanyile is whenever you have difficulty with an answer, you seem to be blaming the interpretation.

MR KHANYILE: To explain, I never had a problem with answering your questions. All I can say about the Interpreter is that I had a problem since from the morning, but it continued up to a stage where I have to say it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, would we please proceed?

MR BERGER: Yes, I am proceeding. The woman Nomvula, do you know that she was suspected of taking information from Boipatong to kwaMadala?

MR KHANYILE: No, I only know her as someone who has a friend at kwaMadala.

MR BERGER: David Mbele, do you know that he was an IFP member?

MR KHANYILE: Even if it wasn't said unto me, but I heard that he was.

MR BERGER: So you will agree with me that the statement that David Mbele had tenuous if any structural connection with Inkatha, is wrong?

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat your question Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Will you agree with me that the statement that David mbele had tenuous if any structural connection with Inkatha, that that statement is wrong?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, do you know David Mbele?

MR KHANYILE: I used to know him as a teacher at Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he was a member of the IFP?

MR KHANYILE: From what I heard, I was told that he was a member of the IFP.

MR BERGER: Did you know that David Mbele, the David Mbele who died, worked for Nampak and that he held IFP meetings at his house in Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR BERGER: Did you know that B.L. Khumalo was an IFP member and in fact a very vocal IFP member?

MR KHANYILE: I knew Khumalo as an IFP member, not a vocative member.

MR BERGER: Are you talking about B.L. Khumalo or are you talking about George Khumalo?

MR KHANYILE: I am referring to Bhendileni Khumalo who was burnt to death at Boipatong. There is another Khumalo of whom I had heard who was staying at Boipatong, that he was an IFP member, but I don't know anything about this Khumalo which I can explain before the Committee.

MR BERGER: In your affidavit on page 104, you refer to Khumalo's family.

INTERPRETER: Khumalo who?

MR BERGER: Khumalo's family. Which Khumalo are you referring to?

MR KHANYILE: I am referring to the Khumalo who was a resident at Boipatong. The Khumalo whom I didn't know much about. I was not referring to the one who was killed.

MR BERGER: You were referring to the Khumalo whose house was burnt in Bopelong Street, Boipatong, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Now, that is George Khumalo. He was a member of the military wing of the IFP, was he not?

MR KHANYILE: As I have explained before, I didn't know much about him. I only knew him as an IFP member and also a resident of that place.

MR BERGER: He was an associate and he kept company with Victor Geswa and Damara Qonqo?

MR KHANYILE: I never noticed them together.

MR BERGER: In 1990 George Khumalo killed Amos Miga and ran away from Boipatong to stay in kwaMadala?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, are we going to have evidence to that effect?

MR BERGER: Indeed, we are. Yes, Mr Chairperson.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: I am saying are you putting this as a fact to this witness?

MR BERGER: In fact Chairperson, George Khumalo was arrested for the murder of Amos Miga and was subsequently released. My understanding is that he was given a suspended sentence.

After his release, he joined forces with Mplupeki Nana Tshabangu and together they terrorised the area of Boipatong. Do you know anything about that Mr Khanyile?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR BERGER: Is it not correct that gangs from kwaMadala such as Victor Geswa, Nana Tshabangu, George Khumalo were responsible for terrorising the residents of Boipatong, isn't that what was happening?

MR KHANYILE: It never came to our attention in kwaMadala.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that the people, the IFP members and I must correct you Mr Khanyile, it wasn't Zulu speaking people, it was specific IFP members who were targeted because they were terrorising the residents of Boipatong. Isn't that what was happening at that time?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, as I have explained yesterday, at the beginning of this issue, it was directed against the Zulu speaking. If you were born a Zulu speaking person, you were on the way to be killed, but after some time, this problem was rectified and people were told that it is, there is no instruction that Zulu's should be killed, because not all the Zulu's are IFP members.

Therefore the talk have changed, that IFP people were to be killed.

MR BERGER: How is it possible then that at the time of the attack on Boipatong, there was still so many Zulu speaking people resident in Boipatong? Not only that there were so many Zulu speaking residents still in Boipatong, but that people that were related to key IFP figures, such as for example the parents-in-law of Mr Mfana Zulu, they were living in Boipatong without any threats being directed at them. How do you explain that Mr Khanyile?

MR KHANYILE: First I would like to explain to Mr Berger that people who were being killed, they were Zulu's who were coming from KwaZulu Natal. Those who were Zulu's by birth in this place, were not involved in this killing.

With regard to the fathers-in-law of Mr Mtwana Zulu, I don't know what arrangement they have made with the comrades that they shouldn't be killed.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, what do you know about the hitsquads from Msinga?

MR KHANYILE: That never existed.

MR BERGER: What do you know about the 40 or 50 men who came from Msinga, who were supported by the residents of kwaMadala hostel?

MR KHANYILE: To explain I would say people were from Msinga, maybe they were not even over 10. That there was a hitsquad from Msinga, that never occurred.

MR BERGER: What do you say of the 40 to 50 people that Mr Victor Mthembu spoke about who were under the command of Mr Damara Qonqo, who were present and remained at the hostel from 1990 all the way through 1992 and who held sway over the residents of kwaMadala?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your last sentence?

MR BERGER: And according to Mr Victor Mthembu, these men from Msinga held sway, held a command over the people of kwaMadala?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, yesterday I have explained to you about the leadership in kwaMadala hostel. If there were people coming from Msinga who were part of the leadership, I would have explained that to you.

What I am trying to say to you is, whatever you are asking me about, never happened.

MR BERGER: So, do you dispute the evidence of the Vice-Chairperson of the Youth Committee, Mr Victor Mthembu on that point?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, without doubt, I deny that.

MR BERGER: What do you know about the Amabutu at kwaMadala?

MR KHANYILE: What I can explain is that I shall start to explain to you what kind of people are referred to as Amabutu.

No residents of kwaMadala were called Amabutu, however, when we go out whether to a rally or somewhere else, armed with out traditional weapons, that is where we are referred to as Amabutu.

MR BERGER: When you left kwaMadala on the night of the 17th, to attack Boipatong, were you the Amabutu?

MR KHANYILE: Yes. Yes, we were like Amabutu.

MR BERGER: You were the warriors, is that correct? That is what Amabutu means?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that when the call was made for the Amabutu to go to the stadium on that Wednesday night, that the Amabutu knew to take their weapons to the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: That is what I heard, I heard that from the stadium.

MR BERGER: What I am putting to you is that, when the call came to go to the stadium, you knew that this was the call for the attack and that is when you took your weapons?

MR KHANYILE: No, that is not true.

MR BERGER: When you got to the stadium on Wednesday night, were you given any instructions on how the attack on Boipatong was going to be carried out?

MR KHANYILE: We were only told that we should arm ourselves to go and attack Boipatong. However people who were mostly required, were the people who were guarding inside the place, who were called as the comrades. Therefore I understood it to mean that the people whom we were supposed to attack first, were the comrades.

We were not going to start attacking the community, we first have to meet the comrades and attack them.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, please listen carefully to this question.

Were you specifically instructed to attack the comrades or the Self Defence Units or were you instructed to attack the residents of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: We were instructed to go and attack Boipatong. How we were going to enter it and how we were going to attack, was not discussed.

MR BERGER: Who gave the instruction?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Qonqo, together with Mr Mkhize.

MR BERGER: Well, I am sure they didn't speak in unison, so I want to ask you who actually gave the instruction that you should attack Boipatong, the residents of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember well, those words were said by Mr Qonqo.

MR BERGER: Can you remember his words, what he said?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember well, he said today is the day to avenge against our enemies.

MR BERGER: What else did he say?

MR KHANYILE: He didn't continue further, he said each and everyone must go and fetch or her arms. Those who wished to use firearms or guns, must contact him.

MR BERGER: What did Mr Mkhize said?

MR KHANYILE: I can't remember what he exactly said on that day because he didn't say much.

MR BERGER: Besides what you have just told the Committee, there was no other discussion about plans or who to target, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: We were told to go and attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You knew at the time that the Army patrolled in that area around kwaMadala, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: They used to patrol, but not every day.

MR BERGER: You also knew that Iscor Security personnel patrolled in that area around the hostel, didn't you?

MR KHANYILE: I don't understand when you refer to Iscor workers or the guards who were patrolling the area. Can you repeat the area?

MR BERGER: I said Iscor Security personnel.

MR KHANYILE: They were there patrolling, but not every day. I didn't see them every day patrolling the area.

MR BERGER: Well, there were people, guards, employed by Iscor who were stationed at the main gate, you knew that, did you not?

MR KHANYILE: That is true.

MR BERGER: How did you think you were going to get out of the main gate with hundreds of men armed with dangerous weapons and this would not be seen by the Iscor personnel at the main gate?

MR KHANYILE: To explain about the gates at kwaMadala, there is a gate in front which is normally used by Iscor workers, entering the hostel. There is a gate where if you use the passage down the bridge to Iscor, it is the gate which enters kwaMadala hostel. Those people who were guarding the gate which enters kwaMadala hostel, were residents of kwaMadala hostel. They were Inkatha members together with us.

The very same pain that we feel, I would say they experienced it. Therefore we were sure that they will never report us to the Police or pass out information.

MR BERGER: What made you so sure that the Police or the Army that is the Vaal Commando, or the Iscor Security personnel who used to patrol in the area to your knowledge, what made you so sure that they would not be there on that night to witness hundreds of armed men, moving in the direction of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, since most of the majority of people staying in kwaMadala was Zulu speaking people, if we have concluded this mission which we wanted to accomplish, what will happen in future, is something that we don't discuss or we will see what will happen.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, it occurred to you that the guards at the main gate would not report you because they were also IFP members.

I put it to you it must have occurred to you that as you were moving on that main road from kwaMadala to Boipatong, you could have been discovered by the Police, the Army or Iscor personnel, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: That we said, come what may.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that you knew that even if the Police or the Army or Iscor Security personnel saw you, they would not take any action against you?

MR KHANYILE: I said Mr Berger, what we were going to do was something which was unlawful. Whether the Police were to see us or the soldiers, they had the right to arrest us.

MR BERGER: When you came out of Boipatong, and perhaps I can refer you to some statements, Chairperson, in preparation for this hearing and in accordance with your wishes at the last hearing, we furnished the Evidence Leader and Mr Prior had copies of certain statements from SADF personnel, Iscor personnel and those statements were copied and given to our learned friends as well. I don't know if the Committee received copies.

Might I formally introduce this statements at this time Chairperson? The last exhibit number was K. Could we go through them and just identify the statements and then give them numbers.

The next one should be the affidavit of Geldenhuys.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on a second. Okay, yes, go ahead.

MR BERGER: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairman, I just want an indication at this stage if Mr Berger intends calling these witnesses, because he wants to refer to certain statements, affidavits, but I cannot see the relevance if these witnesses aren't called at a later stage, and secondly I would submit that the issues raised in these affidavits, and I have looked at them, are actually irrelevant to the issues before this Committee at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, your response?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, one of the issues before this Committee is the issue of full disclosure. It would have become abundantly clear from the questions that I have been putting, that we contend that there was direct Police involvement in the massacre and as far as the SADF is concerned, at the very least and I don't know if I will be able to prove any more, complicity to the extent that the SADF saw this group of attackers on their own statements, leaving Boipatong and doing nothing about it.

The statement that I want to refer to in particular ...

CHAIRPERSON: If the members of the South African Defence Force saw the attackers leaving Boipatong, how was that relevant to the issue of full disclosure in so far as these applicants are concerned?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, not only did the SADF see them leaving Boipatong, but according to one stage, actually stopped traffic to allow the attackers to cross Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and return to Boipatong.

According to another statement, a statement of Mr Geldenhuys ...

CHAIRPERSON: I am just trying to say if the involvement of the South African Defence Force is at the level of assisting the attackers when they were leaving Boipatong, is it being suggested that these applicants who are before us, were working in collusion with the South African Defence Force simply because the South African Defence Force did nothing as they were passing?

Is that the basis of the connection?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it goes beyond merely just letting people pass. There is also statements that the South African Defence Force was present at Nobel Boulevard when shooting was taking place in Boipatong, and never went into Boipatong to assist.

There is evidence from residents who went to soldiers of the Defence Force, asked them to go into Boipatong to assist and the soldiers said we can't go into Boipatong to assist. What I am trying to suggest to this witness is that at the time when they were in the stadium, he must have been given the assurance that the Police who he knew were in the area, that the Army who he knew were in the area, would not intervene, would not resist the attackers going to Boipatong. He must have been given that assurance.

That is why these statements are important. Chairperson, just on another level, as I understand ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay Mr Prior, what is your submission?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, it is difficult to suppress this sort of information, given the submission by Mr Berger. I think one should allow it and see how far one gets with it.

My reading of the statements in the cold light of day, certainly don't assist as far as that is concerned, but obviously Mr Berger is building up to something and we must possibly bear with him in that respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, my attitude is that if one wants to prove a document, one has to follow the normal procedure in proving a document through a witness.

I submit with respect, that there is no procedure in terms of which documents can merely be handed in as my learned friend wishes to do. I would submit that if he wants to hand in a document, he should prove it in the normal course of events. I submit with respect, that the document that my learned friend has made available to me, do not take the matter any further and are irrelevant.

I submit further that there is no document saying, or no statement saying that members of the Defence Force actually stopped traffic to allow the attackers to enter Boipatong. All ...

CHAIRPERSON: But the point that is being made here is that the purpose of using these statements is merely to lay the foundation for the evidence that may be led on behalf of the victims.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, my submission is ...

CHAIRPERSON: These statements are not the end in themselves.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I accept that, but I submit that in order to put the statements to the witness, I would submit that it should appear clearly from the statements that there is some form of complicity and my submission is that these statements merely show that after the event, some members of the South African Defence Force, saw people returning to the kwaMadala hostel.

That, with respect, shows no complicity whatsoever.

CHAIRPERSON: But if his submission is sound, it may well be that if they were there when the people left Boipatong, they may well have been there when the people went to Boipatong because of the time span.

MR DA SILVA: Chairperson, I can't take the matter further than what I am submitting now, but I would submit that if my learned friend wants to lead evidence in that regard, there should be factual evidence in that regard. It is mere speculation whether they were there before the attack or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You know that it is the applicant's case, he is merely using this statement for the purpose of the cross-examination. I would assume that as and when his turn comes, he will lay the proper foundation for this statement if the need arises.

If for example the witness admits the content of this statement, it won't be necessary to call this witness. Do you see the point?

MR DA SILVA: I won't take the submission any further Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This statements will be allowed.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I am mindful of your ruling, but just for the purposes of completeness, might I add that in terms of Section 19(4)(b), that it says that at any hearing the Committee shall inform persons referred to in paragraph (a) and that includes victims of their right to be present at the hearing and to testify, adduce evidence and submit any article to be taken into consideration.

That is what we are doing, we are submitting articles to be taken into consideration.

CHAIRPERSON: ... statement, we have ruled Mr Berger, that the statement will be allowed.

MR BERGER: Could the statement of Hendrik Johannes Geldenhuys, which has a typed A1220 in the right hand corner, Exhibit L, Jakobus Daniel Venter, A1027 - I am sorry Chairperson, we can't hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: I am saying that because this statement appear to be in the form of a bundle, shall we not just mark them L1 through to the end. Let's just get the order right.

The first statement is that of Jakobus Daniel Venter.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, would it be impossible to change the order? Never mind, they have already been stapled, so then if you could just tell me what the order is.

CHAIRPERSON: The first one is Daniel Jakobus Venter, which is marked 12. That is A1027 on the right hand side column. Right, so that would be - did you say Exhibit L1, yes, very well.

MR BERGER: Which one is L2?

CHAIRPERSON: Van Straaten, A4 yes. That would be L3. L4, right. And then the next one is Kobus Barend du Plessis, A2. That would be L5, L6.

Then there is another Gerhardus Jakobus van Straaten, which is A1025. That will be L7, L8, L9, L10. And then there is yet - well another Jakobus Barend du Plessis, which is A1024. That would be L11, L12.

Then the next statement is that of Theunis Lodewikus Steyn, which is A5(a).

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it should be A9(a).

CHAIRPERSON: All right, that would be L13, L14 and then there is another statement by Jakobus Daniel Venter.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, that seems to be a duplicate. If that is A1027, yes, that is already L1.

CHAIRPERSON: The first statement by Venter, well, no the last statement by Venter appears to have some kind of a signature just above A1027, the very last statement. The last statement by Daniel Venter, top right hand corner.

MR BERGER: I don't have that Chairperson, and that is perhaps because I have discarded the other one as being a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: There isn't any, so are you satisfied that this is one and the same statement?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So we can discard this last one? Okay, very well. I am told there is a further statement, Hendrik Johannes Geldenhuys, A1220, that would be L15, L16. Would that be the last statement?

MR BERGER: Yes, that is correct, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Does everyone have all those Exhibit numbers?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Mr Chairperson, but if there is going to be reference and the witness is going to refer to some of these statements, he hasn't got a copy of the statements. The witness hasn't got a copy of the statements, but we will see if we can cope by sort of assisting the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Khanyile, there is a statement, this is L15 and L16 of a Mr Hendrik Johannes Geldenhuys. He was a Security Guard at Metal Box. This is Metalbox on Nobel Boulevard, well it is on Nobel Boulevard and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and Nobel Boulevard is that road of firms that you spoke about yesterday.

This Mr Geldenhuys saw an SADF Buffel drive along Nobel Boulevard from east to west, in other words from Slovo Park towards kwaMadala hostel, before he heard any shots being fired from Boipatong. He says that after the first shot, the Buffel rode back towards Cape Gate and thereafter, says Mr Geldenhuys, screaming and shooting was heard from Boipatong.

I can also just tell you that Mr Geldenhuys was doing foot patrols from gate 1 to gate 2 of Metal Box, that is from Frikkie Meyer to Nobel and back. He started his shift, well he started the foot patrols from a quarter to eight that evening.

Now my point is this, he doesn't hear any screaming and shooting until after the first shot, and he sees the Buffel coming from the direction of Slovo Park, before he hears the first shot. That is why I am suggesting to you Mr Khanyile, that the Army was indeed present in the vicinity of Boipatong before the first shots were fired. Do you wish to comment on that?

MR KHANYILE: As I have explained yesterday, that I only saw soldiers when we were moving out of Boipatong. At no time did I see Police or soldiers, I again saw them at the gate when we arrived at kwaMadala hostel, they were talking to Mr Mthembu. That was the only two instances where I saw the soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, when we last said there was some indication that we were going to get a map, depicting this whole area, do you know what has become of that?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I have been given rather startling information and that is that the Exhibits and this map was apparently one of those Exhibits that my learned friend was talking about, Exhibits have vanished and that they are neither in Bloemfontein nor in Pretoria.

I don't know whether my learned friend has any further information. That is what we were informed by Mr Wessel Janse van Rensburg.

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I have no further information Mr Chairperson. We could not find any Exhibits. I just had the Exhibits that I used during the trial myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, what I will do, I will speak to my learned friend during the adjournment, because his Attorneys I would have thought as being the Attorneys of appeal, would have access to the Exhibits, but perhaps my learned friend could assist with his Exhibits.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairperson, I acted in the trial as a pro deo counsel. I at that stage didn't have an Attorney. The appeal started as a pro deo appeal. What happened after the trial, I don't know what happened to Exhibits, they were processed in the normal course. I've got no knowledge.

MR BERGER: We will do our best to put together a map. Mr Khanyile, you can't - you say that you have no knowledge of an SADF vehicle being in the vicinity of Nobel Boulevard, down Cape Gate way before the attack started?

MR KHANYILE: I repeat and I say I deny that.

MR BERGER: Then there is an affidavit from Jakobus Daniel Venter, L1, he was doing a camp in Vaal Commando at the time. He says that at some point he noticed 200 people in the veld opposite the Trek garage. He says that the Buffel then went down to Cape Gate, made a U-turn and came back and when they came back, that this group had grown to about 500.

He says one person in the group stood up, made a hand signal after which the rest of the group followed. Does that sound familiar to you?

MR KHANYILE: That never occurred, or it is not true.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that at no stage were you part of a group of 200 or 500 in the veld, opposite the Trek garage just outside of Boipatong, on the eastern side of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR KHANYILE: The first time we met, it is before we reached the Trek garage, we didn't pass the Trek garage or via the Trek garage. We were one group.

MR BERGER: Perhaps you are misunderstanding me Mr Khanyile.

At a time when you were leaving Boipatong, did you gather in the veld just outside of Boipatong, before crossing Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, yesterday you testified did you not, that at some point after you had left the hostel, you stopped under a tree.

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how far this tree is from the Trek garage?

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Chairperson, sorry to interrupt. I have found an aerial photograph in the record, which may be of some assistance to everybody to point out certain places. If I can hand this up and the tree is also for instance indicated on this photograph, that can show the whole scene, it depicts the whole area, the hostel kwaMadala, the factories, the streets, etc.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a key to this map?

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairperson, I am sure everything is in this Volume, I will just get it.

CHAIRPERSON: You just look up for the key so that we can make copies of these documents at an appropriate time, perhaps during the tea adjournment.

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: There are in fact keys available for the photographs, we will make copies during the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well. To the extent that this aerial photograph may be useful in this particular line of cross-examination that you are pursuing, do you want to defer that aspect until these copies have been made?

MR BERGER: I can do that and I can go onto something else. CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment at eleven o'clock.

MR BERGER: I do have stuff to proceed, yes. I do have stuff to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore would you just defer that line of questioning then so that we can have these photocopies of this map made?

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, you testified yesterday - Chairperson, your desk is about to fall off the stage - Mr Khanyile, you testified yesterday that you entered Boipatong along Msheshwe Street.

Mr Victor Mthembu testified that you entered Boipatong along Umzimvubu Street. Which one of you are correct?

MR KHANYILE: The street which we used to enter Boipatong, is the one which I mentioned, Msheshwe.

MR BERGER: From Msheshwe, you say you went all along Msheshwe in an easterly direction, until you got to Leqwa Street. You went north along Leqwa towards the shops and you continued north along Leqwa, passed the shops, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: That happened after we divided into two.

MR BERGER: Yes, I am sorry. The entire group according to you, all 300, 400, 500 attackers entered Boipatong along Msheshwe at the southern end of Boipatong.

All of you moved along Msheshwe, until you got to Leqwa, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: If that street which crosses Msheshwe is Leqwa, that is correct.

MR BERGER: But the point is that when you got to Leqwa, you were still one group of 400 people, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: There was no agreement or arrangement to split into two groups, according to you that happened spontaneously when the first shots were fired in Leqwa Street, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That is my evidence.

MR BERGER: And the group that you were in, was also the group that Damara Qonqo was in, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And that group continued to move in a northerly direction towards the shops, which are situated on the corner of Leqwa and Bapedi Streets?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: That group also continued to move north, passed the shops along Leqwa Street, correct?

MR KHANYILE: What I can say is that when they reached the shop, they also dispersed. Some get into houses, some broke the windows, some followed those who were running away.

MR BERGER: In which direction did these people go?

MR KHANYILE: I said they scattered. When I say they scattered, it means they went to different directions.

MR BERGER: I see you are indicating with your arms that they went in all directions, to the left to the right, to the north, to the south, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: They scattered as I indicate.

MR BERGER: You indicate that they went to the left and to the right, is that right?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: In the vicinity of the shops, no houses were touched to the left. Can you explain that?

MR KHANYILE: Sir I won't be able to know that. I don't believe I ever gave evidence relating to that point.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what counsel is putting to you is that if the attackers ran in the direction that you indicate, one would expect that there would be damaged houses in the direction in which the attackers ran into.

What he is putting to you is that in the direction in which you say some of the attackers ran into, no houses were damaged. How do you explain that? Do you have an explanation for that?

Is that what you are putting to this witness?

MR BERGER: Indeed, that is precisely what I am putting.

MR KHANYILE: Presently I will say the question that was asked by Mr Berger and the question asked by the Judge, are two different questions.

The first question was referring, said to my left, the side to which I proceeded ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger has just confirmed that what I have just put to you, is what he wanted to ask you. Is that right Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: That is my question, yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairperson, can I just also add something here. I have indicated on the map I have in front of me, all damaged houses and three houses on the left hand side, was in fact damaged. So the statement is not correct.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I will compare maps with my learned friend and see which three houses he is referring to.

Mr Khanyile, I see that some of your co-applicants have a map. You can see that one of the applicants is looking at the map at the moment, which is now being put away.

You have had a chance to look at that map, have you not and you have had a chance to see where houses were damaged and where they weren't damaged as indicated on the map that your colleague has, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: I can see the map sir. But as to how it works, and how it is explained, I can only point on the map. I don't know how it works.

MR BERGER: And I put it to you, you have had an opportunity to discuss the map, where houses were damaged, where they weren't damaged with your applicants in preparation for your evidence yesterday and today, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: My lawyers, I have explained to my lawyers that I don't know how the map works therefore I never agreed or stated that I will be able to use the map.

MR BERGER: And you had not discussed that map with your co-applicants at any stage?

MR KHANYILE: No. We didn't and I don't know whether they have a map.

MR BERGER: As far as you are concerned, did you - when the group dispersed and went to the left and went to the right, where did you go?

MR KHANYILE: I will say at that time it wasn't easy for me to remember, it is not easy now for me to remember everything that happened.

At the time of the attack, whether I proceeded forward or I turned to the left or the right, I am not sure now.

MR BERGER: All you can remember from an hour and a half in Boipatong, is stabbing one person and throwing stones at houses, is that right?

MR KHANYILE: That is what I did.

MR BERGER: In all the time you were in Boipatong, you only saw two people who could have been killed?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, there were two whom I saw. But I heard on the news that another lot of people were injured.

MR BERGER: How many injured people did you see in Boipatong that night?

MR KHANYILE: I wouldn't have explained if I did see them, which means I didn't see them.

MR BERGER: You left Boipatong along the street where the firms are, that is Nobel Boulevard, correct?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And how big was the group that was moving with you when you moved out of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: I will say it was 150 and above.

MR BERGER: Did you enter the street, Nobel Boulevard from Leqwa Street?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR BERGER: How did you enter Nobel Boulevard?

MR KHANYILE: The road that is adjacent to the firm, we never travel on that road. We are just travelling aside or near the road.

MR BERGER: Are you saying you were walking on the pavement of that road?

MR KHANYILE: Yesterday I said we used the last street outside of Boipatong.

MR BERGER: The last street, the most northern street in Boipatong just before Nobel Boulevard is Amatolo Street and if I understand you correctly, you would have entered Amatolo Street from Leqwa Street, correct?

MR KHANYILE: If they are the ways you say it, I will say it is correct.

MR BERGER: Once again, and subject to what my learned friend's map looks like, from Leqwa Street along Amatolo and out of Boipatong, only two houses were touched. Why is that?

MR KHANYILE: Why were they not supposed to be attacked, because we went there with the aim of attacking them?

Our aim was to attack.

MR BERGER: That is my point Mr Khanyile, they were not attacked. Most of those houses, bar two, most of those houses were not attacked.

You see what I am suggesting to you is that you left Boipatong along Bafokeng Street, which is one street before Amatolo Street. On that street, almost every house was attacked. People were injured and people were killed.

MR KHANYILE: Sir, I don't understand your question. Are you directing as to why only two others were attacked or why many houses were attacked. I don't understand the direction of your question.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, really, this man has said repeatedly he can't read a map. The map is a bit misleading in places, certainly the copy I've got is not very clear.

If he says the last road, it may be the last road with houses on either side, it may be the last road without houses on either side. Does it take us any further, really?

MR BERGER: Mr Lax ...

MR LAX: We just seem to be getting bogged down in this sort of detail which doesn't add a hell of a lot of value to our process.

MR BERGER: If I can just put to you Mr Khanyile why I am asking you these questions. I suggest to you that you are deliberately playing down your role in the massacre, that you are aware of many more people who were killed or injured and in particular you are aware and well aware at the time, that most of the people who were attacked, were the elderly, the children and the women of Boipatong. That is what I am putting to you.

MR KHANYILE: Do you want me to answer? My answer would be like this. As I have stated yesterday that we were about 350 to 400, therefore it is clear that I couldn't, I individually, as an individual know all the things that were, or the acts of the 400 people.

Secondly I as I am here together with my fellow applicants, you might find that our acts are just few of the acts and most of the acts were committed by those who are not here.

Therefore, Mr Berger, I would like you to understand me in this, that it was at night, I couldn't see the acts of 400 people and we were fighting. I wasn't going about recording things.

MR BERGER: Let me ask you this Mr Khanyile, why were women, old people and children killed?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, even if I personally, myself, didn't kill a child or an elderly woman, however, my view is I think you know or you are aware that when there is a war or fighting, it is not only the targets who get injured. Any one who happen to be in the vicinity, might be injured.

I think you did see wars occurring in other countries where there is a conflict within governments. However, you have seen young children who are victimised and killed first.

What I am trying to say with reference to the injured community of Boipatong, even if our main aim was to go and fight the comrades, the community was caught in the cross fire. One reason to explain this is that they were also supporting the acts of the youth against us.

If it did happen, it was to send a message to them to say that if their children do something that is wrong, they should try to talk them down, not support them.

MR BERGER: If I understand you correctly Mr Khanyile, what you are saying is that the children, the old people, the women, they were all legitimate targets, it was not a mistake that they were killed, they were deliberately killed to teach them and their sons, a lesson? Is that right?

MR KHANYILE: Those which I would like to exclude in this category is children who don't know anything. With regards to all the adults, they knew exactly what was happening. Even if they are here, as they are here in this Commission, they know exactly what I am describing.

With regards to the children, I will say they got injured as I have explained that when there is a fight, even the one who is innocent, even the innocents, they do get injured.

I will say even those who were involved in injuring children, it may be because they were so angry in such a way that they couldn't distinguish as to what they were doing.

MR BERGER: You talk about innocent people who get caught in the cross fire. But isn't it correct Mr Khanyile, that these were innocent people who were caught in the cross fire, these were innocent people who were deliberately hacked and stabbed and shot to death. Not a question of being caught in the cross fire, isn't that right?

MR KHANYILE: I don't understand as to which people you are referring to when it was plain that they should deliberately be killed.

MR BERGER: Well, I am not going to go through the whole list, but the last time we were here, I mentioned elderly people, elderly women, pregnant women and young kids, nine months, three years, four years, seven years, who were hacked and stabbed t death.

What I am suggesting to you is they were not caught in any cross fire, they were deliberately targeted. My question to you is why?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I have explained that the elderly people were involved in the killings orchestrated against us because they were supporting the killings of the IFP members and therefore we regard them as people who were involved in the killings orchestrated against us and the people whom I said were caught in a cross-fire, are young children.

However, I want you to know this Mr Berger, this is my opinion. I am not saying this because I did it, because I never killed a child. I never killed an elderly person who was female on the day.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, it is your own evidence that the killings were designed to teach the people of Boipatong a lesson. Do you still stand by that evidence?

MR KHANYILE: At that time, when we went to attack, that was my stand point, but after the attack I realised that even if it was like that, it was not necessary.

MR BERGER: Just one more question on this point. Yes, that was your attitude at the time and if it was your attitude at the time, that the residents of Boipatong needed to be taught a lesson, then I put it to you it follows that each and every resident of Boipatong, whether old or young, healthy or not, male or female, was a target for your attack. Do you agree?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I am still relying on the last answer that I gave you.

MR BERGER: Can I take that as a yes to my question?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I said to you our aim was to attack the comrades who were killing us. Together with the community of Boipatong, which community supported this comrades, which means that the things that were done by the comrades, were accepted by the community. They regarded the comrades who were killing us and burning us, as heroes.

Therefore those people were the people we were aiming to avenge against. With reference to children, I said to you they were caught in the cross fire.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, would this be an appropriate time to take the short adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment and come back at half past eleven.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

VINCENT KHANYILE: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (cont)

Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, as far as the map of Boipatong is concerned, and the houses that I put to Mr Khanyile...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to that which we have here?

MR BERGER: I am referring to Exhibit J, yes. My learned friend's map and mine, are in fact the same and we are agreed that in the vicinity of the shops, there were no houses damaged to the left of Leqwa Street.

We are agreed on that now. My learned friend thought I was referring to a different area.

CHAIRPERSON: At one stage you put to Mr Khanyile that only two houses were damaged along Amatolo Street, whereas according to the map, Exhibit J, there appears to be four.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I was referring to that part of Amatolo Street to the left of Leqwa Street, being the route that Mr Khanyile would have followed out of Boipatong.

There is one house on the corner of Leqwa and Amatolo and there is one right at the end of Amatolo, towards Thembu Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, given what we know about the attack, can you put forward any political objective of the IFP which would have been satisfied by this attack?

MR KHANYILE: My understanding, it was an avenge for the killing of the IFP members and I think this is the point which it is politically motivated, the other political gain is after that attack, the killings of IFP members have extremely decreased.

As I am speaking today here, IFP members Vaal, they are free to walk wherever they want to go.

MR BERGER: Revenge as you have said many times, was your reason for the attack and you say that was the reason given by Mr Damara Qonqo, when he said today is the day to take revenge.

That was not a political objective of the IFP and so I ask you again, what political objective of the IFP were you pursuing when you attacked Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, can we really take it further than what the witness has told us as to what the political objective he thought they were going to achieve by the attack?

MR BERGER: Perhaps I could put this then Chairperson. The leader of the Inkatha Freedom Party, Mr Mangosuthu Buthelezi said the following after the attack: He said, such brutality shocks the sensibility of even the most brutal people. It leaves civilised mankind stunned at the viciousness of man. My deepest sympathy goes out to all relatives and loved ones of those who died so hideously at the hands of brutal men.

He also offered his and the IFP's and I quote "fullest support for any enquiry into the mindless killings of innocent people that took place".

At the time of the attack, the leader of the IFP and the IFP condemned this attack absolutely and said that it was the mindless killing of innocent people.

At no stage since that condemnation, has the IFP retracted it or taken responsibility for this attack. What I want to suggest to you Mr Khanyile, is that the political aims of the IFP were not furthered by this attack, nor was the attacked sanctioned by the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khanyile, do you understand what the question is?

MR KHANYILE: I did understand part of the question, but I didn't get the full understanding because it is a long statement.

What I understood was the statement given by Chief Gatsha Buthelezi, my answer to that question I would say to Mr Berger, you know politics. Chief Buthelezi's answer was also a political answer. To explain further, even the top rank leadership of the ANC did read the statement about the Boipatong issue, they were not present, they didn't know what happened, so I would say that is how the politic game is.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, my question is really this. Other political parties for example the PAC took responsibility for the actions of their members.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't want to intervene, but having dealt with a lot of these matters, it wasn't always the case where the leadership, the political leadership were aware of these matters.

Certainly at some later stage, responsibility was or was not accepted, depended on the situation. Unless my learned friend has some basis upon which he can make the statement, I don't think it is fair that it is put on that to him that other political parties accepted responsibility for such acts, therefore ...

MR BERGER: I don't know if I articulated it or if it was just in my head, but the point that I was making was that other political parties at other times, either at the time of the commission of the offence, or subsequently, took responsibility for the actions of their members.

CHAIRPERSON: But what does that have to do with Khanyile? What you should put to Mr Khanyile is the question, if you are suggesting to Mr Khanyile that at no stage did the IFP, on whose behalf he states that he was acting at the time, did it take responsibility for their actions. That is the question you should put to him, which is a more direct question.

MR BERGER: I will do that Chairperson. Mr Khanyile, you have heard the question, I will repeat it to you.

At no stage since Chief Gatsha Buthelezi made the statement condemning the mindless killing of innocent people, at no stage from then until now, has the IFP taken responsibility for your actions and what I want to suggest to you is the reason for that, is that your actions were in no way designed to further the political objectives of the IFP.

MR KHANYILE: I think Mr Berger, taking into account that many people have died for nothing, I have never heard that any particular organisation have accepted that it is their own people who killed people.

All that I normally hear is this political comments which I have just explained to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you should just respond directly to the question Mr Khanyile. You see, you have told us that in engaging in the conduct in which you yourself and your co-applicants engaged in on the day in question, you were furthering the political objectives of the IFP.

You have described what those objectives were. Do you understand so far?

MR KHANYILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is not being put to you is this, the leader of the IFP condemned the attack on Boipatong. Do you understand so far? And what is being put to you therefore is that that condemnation, suggests that you were not furthering the aims of the IFP. What is your answer?

MR KHANYILE: As I have explained yesterday, that politics to us, the black people, came in a different fashion. I personally, even if I don't know the constitution of the organisation or its provisions, all that I knew is that all that we were doing, we were doing it as an avenge and also bearing in mind that an organisation might benefit from it.

MR BERGER: Isn't the truth Mr Khanyile, that the attack was ordered by Mr Themba Khosa as part of his reign of terror in the Vaal and as part of his - the only word that I can use is - Chiefdom if you know what I mean.

INTERPRETER: We don't know what you mean.

CHAIRPERSON: You should explain it to him, so that he can understand the question.

MR BERGER: I am sorry Chairperson, I didn't hear what you said. Just for the sake of the Interpreters, Chiefdom means an area under control of a Chief or some leader of some description.

Mr Khanyile, in other words, what I am putting to you is that Mr Themba Khosa who ordered the attack, that he was not acting on behalf of the IFP at that time, he was acting for his own motives and not in the furtherance of IFP policy.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, let me break down this statement, there are two questions to it. The first one is that, Themba Khosa ordered the attack on Boipatong, do you agree with that statement?

MR KHANYILE: I don't agree with that. I was still going to ask him as to where did he get that information.

CHAIRPERSON: The second part of the question is that in ordering the attack on Boipatong, Themba Khosa was not furthering the aims of the IFP, he was doing it for his own personal gains? What is your answer to that question?

MR KHANYILE: It put me in a difficult position to put this question.

MR BERGER: Why?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger as I am giving evidence here, I never mentioned the name of Themba Khosa as one who is involved in the attack.

It surprises me that you are asking me a question in that fashion.

MR LAX: Mr Khanyile, just comment on what he put to you, as Judge Ngcobo explained, you either agree with it or you don't agree with it. Let's not get bogged down in an argument please.

MR KHANYILE: I can't comment, I don't know.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, were you aware at the time of the attack, that there were people in Boipatong who were not supporters of the ANC?

MR KHANYILE: To my knowledge, I used to know that all the people, the residents of Boipatong, were ANC members.

MR BERGER: In fact, according to Mr Themba Khosa, there were leaders of the IFP in Boipatong at the time of the attack, did you know that?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR BERGER: Further according to Mr Themba Khosa, some of the deceased who died in your attack, were members or supporters of the IFP, did you know that?

MR KHANYILE: If that was the case, we would have been informed and we would have gone to their funeral, therefore I say I do not know about that.

MR BERGER: What were you chanting as you rampaged through Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: We were just - we last chanted at the stadium, shouted Usuthu.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that Usuthu is a typical battle cry?

MR KHANYILE: Even if there is no battle, when we are armed with traditional weapons, we normally shout this chant.

MR BERGER: What does it mean?

ADV SIGODI: Mr Berger, may I ask where is this line of questioning taking us, of what significance is it going to be?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, sorry through the Chair, we are busy putting together a memorandum as we promised the last time, to set out the facts which we intend to place before the Committee and if there are any facts which are in dispute, we will then lead evidence on that.

One of the paragraphs in that memorandum mentions that as the attackers were moving through Boipatong, they were chanting Usuthu.

ADV SIGODI: That is why he does agree but he is also saying that they were at war, and if it was at war and you are saying that this was a war cry, I mean where does it take us in getting at the truth?

MR BERGER: I was just taking up on the point he said, it wasn't chanted in Boipatong, he said it was chanted at the stadium. I want ...

ADV SIGODI: What difference will it make to the hearing as a whole?

MR BERGER: I was just trying to remove this as a dispute in our memorandum, but I can leave it there.

Mr Khanyile, what was the point of stealing property and destroying property in Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: According to our own tradition or custom, if there is a battle, you normally if you conquer, you will eat whatever you find, whether it is cattle or goats. Whatever you find.

MR BERGER: Would I be correct then to say that if there is a battle and one of the objectives of destroying the enemy is to leave the enemy in poverty and to at the same time, to enrich the estate of the victors?

MR KHANYILE: With reference to goods, when I went out of the hostel in 22 July 1990, I got out wearing a tracksuit. All my property was left in the hostel.

I am trying to explain that it is normally the case that when we attack people or we get attacked, you normally take something to show that you won the battle.

MR BERGER: I think from your answer, that you are agreeing with me, but I don't want there to be ambiguity Mr Khanyile.

You left KwaMasiza with the clothes on your back, is that what you are saying?

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't understand this witness to say when he left Boipatong, he had ...

MR KHANYILE: What I said yesterday is that I did see people carrying goods. I wasn't staying at KwaMasiza, I was staying in the hostel in Sebokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: He is referring to Masiza hostel.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I was going back, but it has been confusing, so I will state the point.

Correct me if I am wrong Mr Khanyile, but when you left whichever hostel you were chased out of, I am now going back - you mentioned the 22nd of July 1990, you left with no possessions, am I right?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And traditionally when there is a war, what you are saying is that one of the objects of the war is to destroy the enemy and in destroying the enemy, you leave the enemy without possessions, and that is why you take possessions from the enemy and in so doing you enrich the estate of the people who win the war. Do I understand you correctly on that?

MR KHANYILE: I will say even if that is not one of the aims that you should take goods from the enemy, but it is normally the case that when we fight, it is not the goal but it is the kind of thing that normally happen in a situation like that.

With reference to impoverishing others and we gaining, I will say I also suffered the same consequences.

MR BERGER: I asked you why property was destroyed and stolen in Boipatong and your answer was that is what always happens in a war. Do I understand you when you say that you were referring to what happened historically?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I have tried just now to explain. I don't know if you understand me. I said this is not a written rule that every time when you fight, you should take goods or cattle or anything, but it is a usual thing that happens in our tradition, that when you fight you take goods.

Even if at some times the goods are not normally taken, but usually it happens that goods are taken.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Khanyile, talking about tradition, is it not so that usually when there is battle, women and small children will be saved, they wouldn't be attacked and killed, in fact they will be taken back by the victorious party?

MR KHANYILE: The olden days' wars were different to our today's wars, today even women are involved in the war.

Therefore we can't compare wars of those days and the wars of today because when people are attacked and killed or thrown at with stones, you find that women are involved, therefore it is different to those olden days.

MR SIBANYONI: But in so far as taking the property or destroying it, you are prepared to compare the type of your attack with the olden wars?

MR KHANYILE: I wasn't trying to say that was the goal, I was just giving an example.

MR BERGER: Would I be correct to say that on what you have said, that the purpose of a war historically and the war or the attack on Boipatong, was to destroy the enemy both physically and economically?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I think it will be difficult to compare what happened in history and now. I was just taking an example from history, because the things that are happening today, never happened before in history.

As I have stated, women were not involved, they wouldn't go into the Army, into war, so these are things which happens today, therefore we cannot compare them with the things that happened in history.

To explain things that happened in history, is just that it was the usual, the normal thing, the custom that things were taken after the battle. I wasn't saying I am comparing things of today and things of the past.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, you evoked history and all I am trying to do is to make sure that there is no ambiguity in your answer. I am trying to establish whether you are saying that it is usual in war for the victorious party to steal the property of the vanquished party?

MR KHANYILE: Firstly, in our Zulu tradition, we don't consider that as theft, it is things that are won in the battle therefore I will say it is usual, I don't say I did it myself, but I will say it is usual, it happens.

I have seen it happening in the fights at home when the people are fighting. I am not saying exactly that is what happened.

MR BERGER: I think we have got to the point now where I can say to you that the property which was taken from the residents of Boipatong by the attackers, was taken as property which had been won in battle, would you agree with that?

MR KHANYILE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: Can we go back now to the questioning about the SADF. There are certain maps which my learned friend kindly provided to us. Do you have the maps in front of you Mr Khanyile?

MR STRYDOM: Do you mean the aerial photographs Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: I am sorry, yes, I do. Chairperson, could we mark these as Exhibit M, there is M1 and M2. Each photograph appears to have a key attacked to it.

M1 will be the black and white photograph and M2 will be the colour. Mr Khanyile, do you have the photographs in front of you?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: If you look at M1, you will see that is an aerial photograph showing kwaMadala at the bottom of the photograph, Boipatong at the top of the photograph and ...

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I can see.

MR BERGER: And if you look and see there is a letter marked C and it points to a building at a certain intersection, at the corner of an intersection. That building is the Trek garage at the corner of Frikkie Meyer and Nobel Boulevard.

Can you comprehend what is being shown on this photograph? Mr Khanyile, do you understand what is being shown and can you identify that that is the garage at the corner?

MR KHANYILE: I already mentioned that I have got difficulty with reading the map, but I will agree with you as you are telling me.

MR BERGER: You can see from that corner all the way to the left of the photograph, you will see there is an area of veld between Boipatong and that road which is running there which is Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, do you see that area of veld?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I can see it.

MR BERGER: The statement which I was reading to you earlier, I was dealing with the statement of Jakobus Daniel Venter, and he says in paragraph 5, Exhibit L1, that he made a U-turn at Cape Gate and came back towards the open area of ground. This would be the open area of ground between Boipatong and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard.

He says that when they arrived there, he saw that there was a group of approximately 500 people. One in that group, stood up, made a hand signal and the others followed him.

Does that ring any bells, do you know what this man is talking about?

MR KHANYILE: Nothing like that happened. We just crossed the road to the other side.

MR BERGER: He goes on in paragraph 6 to say, well I left your pardon, I have left out a sentence in paragraph 5. He said the man made the hand signal, the crowd followed and they moved in a westerly direction towards kwaMadala hostel. He says that his vehicle followed this group to the robot and at the robot, Corporal Van Straaten stopped oncoming traffic.

He says shortly thereafter everybody was already over the road, he is talking about the crowd, and he then says that him, he and his vehicle, moved towards the main gate of the hostel.

Does any of that sound familiar to you?

MR KHANYILE: I will try to explain briefly. When we came together and formed one group, I think it was at Cape Gate, we proceeded with the street which is adjacent to the (indistinct), we never use a tarred road which is adjacent to the fence.

We proceeded towards the passengers' bridge, that is where we crossed, we proceeded towards the passengers' bridge, that is where we crossed. We never used the Boulevard road. The soldiers whom you said stopped their cars, I didn't see them.

I only see soldiers on the big road called Frikkie Meyer when we were approaching this road, when we were about to cross the pedestrian bridge. They retreated back and stopped at a garage, therefore we crossed the road and proceeded forward.

That is what happened.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that the soldiers saw you, and then retreated away from you?

MR KHANYILE: They saw us, whether they were retreating or not, I don't know, but they did move back until the stop at the garage.

MR BERGER: And then after you had crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, you say that you then proceeded across the area of veld. Do I understand you correctly that you then got back onto the main road, you went under the bridge again and you went back into kwaMadala through the main gate?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it is as I explained, that when we crossed the pedestrian bridge, there is a small path next to a building which joins the tarred road after you pass under the bridge.

MR BERGER: But it is correct is it not, that you then got onto the main road and you walked along the main road and you entered kwaMadala hostel back through the main gate?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, Frikkie Meyer is this way, when we were coming from Boipatong, we crossed over the pedestrian bridge, we didn't cross the main road, we use a small foot path which goes along the building. We only joined the tarred road after passing the small bridge and then we turned to our left and get to kwaMadala hostel.

We never walked along Frikkie Meyer, we just crossed it.

MR BERGER: I understand your evidence on that point Mr Khanyile, what I am trying to ascertain is, and perhaps I can ask you this, for how long did you and the other attackers walk along the tarred road which leads into the main entrance of kwaMadala? Can you perhaps indicate in court for how long were you on the tarred road?

MR KHANYILE: What I am trying to explain to you sir, is that we never walked on the tarred road. We crossed the Frikkie Meyer road and we used the pedestrian path when we were going to kwaMadala hostel.

It means when we enter the tarred road after passing the small bridge, the distance from there to kwaMadala hostel is about 150 metres.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, am I correct on this, that all the attackers returned to kwaMadala through the main gate, through the same gate that they had left out of? Am I correct on that?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now the main gate leads directly onto a tarred road, am I correct?

MR KHANYILE: When you get out of kwaMadala through the main gate, you enter the tarred road which goes passed through the bridge, it is a short distance. However, we used the pedestrian path to walk to the hostel.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, I am getting, I am really feeling that I am hesitant to interrupt you, but where is all of this taking us? You know, the picture is self evident, the photograph makes it perfectly clear what he is saying and you can even see the pedestrian path that goes from the foot bridge to just near where the road goes under the bridge, as he describes it.

Why are we wasting so much energy on such a tiny little, what doesn't seem very material, issue?

MR BERGER: For this reason and I will just put the point, and move on. The ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let me please ask you. Let's just focus on issues that are material to the question that we have to decide here. If there is anything or whether these people walked on the tar road or on the foot path, put that to the witness.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, in my submission there is a material issue here and the material issue relate to again full disclosure.

The witness says that the attackers re-entered kwaMadala hostel through the main gate. The Army say that they saw this group of attackers, they proceeded directly to the main gate and the attackers were not there, they had disappeared into the veld.

So, I either ...

CHAIRPERSON: But put that to the witness. Just put it to the witness because what he is saying is manifestly obvious from the map. Is there anything to controvert what he is saying, then just put it to him so that he can have the opportunity to deal with that.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, this is what it boils down to. You say that you and all the other attackers re-entered kwaMadala through the main gate. The Army personnel whose affidavits I have, say that after seeing you crossing Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, they proceeded to the main gate, and none of you were there.

What they are saying is that all of you somehow disappeared into the veld and were never seen again. Either you are not telling the truth or they are not telling the truth. What I want to know from you is who is not telling the truth?

MR KHANYILE: I am trying to explain to you Mr Berger, that the Police I would say - correct that, the soldiers came about five minutes, in five minutes' time after we had arrived at kwaMadala.

As I was walking on this pedestrian path, we left the soldiers standing at the Trek garage. We were rushing as we could see we are afraid that we have to rush into the kwaMadala hostel after seeing them. What I can say, that whoever says something to the contrary is not telling the truth, but the fact that they did come to kwaMadala after some few minutes, is true.

MR BERGER: After you entered kwaMadala, you went straight to the stadium. Did you have a conversation with Moses Mthembu at the main gate before you went to the stadium or after?

MR KHANYILE: I believe when we entered the gate coming from Boipatong, Mr Mthembu was at the gate in the small office. When coming back from the stadium, I went to him in that small office. Before we could discuss anything, the soldiers arrived.

MR BERGER: So you went to the stadium before you had the conversation with Mr Moses Mthembu?

CHAIRPERSON: He says he didn't have a conversation with Mr Mthembu. The Police arrived before they could have a conversation.

MR BERGER: Before you were present with Moses Mthembu at the gate when the Police arrived, before that you had gone to the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something Mr Berger, were these Police that arrived or were these Army people that arrived?

MR KHANYILE: It is only soldiers that I saw on that day.

MR LAX : ... avoid the confusion where we all start talking about the Police when in fact it is soldiers according to the evidence I have found. Please carry on Mr Berger, sorry.

MR BERGER: Thank you. Is it correct that all the attackers went back to the stadium after the attack?

MR KHANYILE: I won't be certain but I would say most of them did go to the stadium.

There are trees in the vicinity of kwaMadala, I don't know whether others proceeded to the houses or not.

MR BERGER: A few days, a day or two after the attack on Boipatong, is it correct that Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu came to kwaMadala?

MR KHANYILE: It is correct.

MR BERGER: Who else was with them?

MR KHANYILE: It was an Attorney, Anina van der Westhuizen. I am not too sure if I am pronouncing this name correctly.

MR BERGER: That is Ms Anina van der Westhuizen who is present today.

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that she had an Interpreter with her?

MR KHANYILE: I don't have any recollection of as to who she was with, but at the time, the Attorney said nothing to us.

The people who were busy talking to us were the Police who had been assisted by Themba Khosa in the sense that he was interpreting for them. They kept coming often for more days.

But I am not too sure if they came the same time or the Attorney followed.

MR BERGER: Well, I am more concerned with Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu and that meeting. Is it correct that at that meeting Mr Themba Khosa informed the residents of kwaMadala that they should burn and destroy all evidence which linked them to the attack on Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I am not in a position to respond there, because I have not heard that or I did not hear that.

What I understood then was that the Police were about 500 to 600 in number. I do trust and hope that there were some black Policemen who could have understood Themba Khosa as he was speaking because they were using the same language.

MR BERGER: Why would Mr Victor Mthembu say that Mr Themba Khosa in fact did give such an instruction if no such instruction was given?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember well, when I came back from work, I hope Themba Khosa was already there. Maybe if he did say that, he could have said that before my arrival.

MR BERGER: On what day was that?

MR KHANYILE: It was on a Thursday.

MR BERGER: Was that the day after the attack?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct. To my knowledge I think Themba came on Thursday.

MR BERGER: Where were you working at the time?

MR KHANYILE: I was working in Vanderbijlpark at a place called Supreme.

MR BERGER: Didn't you tell the Committee yesterday that from Thursday the 18th of June, none of the residents were allowed out of the hostel until the following Monday because the Police were preventing you from leaving the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: That happened on that specific day, but late in the afternoon.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that there was a time on Thursday the 18th of June, when the Police were allowing people to leave the hostel, but only after that, the Police sealed the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: What time the Police arrived in that area, I am not sure, but when I come back from work, they were present. When I left for work early in the morning, at about five o'clock, they were not there.

MR BERGER: When you left for work at five o'clock in the morning, neither the Police or the Army were there, you were allowed free access out of the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: During those times the hostel was not closed.

MR BERGER: Please answer my question - when you left the hostel to go to work at five o'clock on Thursday morning, are you saying that there were no Police and no Army personnel present outside the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: That is what I am saying.

MR BERGER: And are you saying that you and other residents of the hostel were allowed free access out of the hostel at that time?

MR KHANYILE: What I know is all the people were supposed to go to work early in the morning, they freely went to work without any prevention of getting out by the Police because there were no Police outside the gate.

MR BERGER: When you returned, you found Themba Khosa addressing a meeting, is that what you are saying?

INTERPRETER: Please, may you repeat your question?

MR BERGER: I am sorry, when you returned from work on the 18th, you found Themba Khosa addressing a meeting in the stadium?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember well, it seems to be true.

MR BERGER: At what time did you knock off work and at what time did you return to the hostel?

MR KHANYILE: I knocked off at about five in the evening. I arrived at the hostel at about six o'clock or something to six.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct Mr Khanyile, that you are once again protecting Mr Themba Khosa?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, what I would like to explain briefly is I am here to ask for amnesty for things which I know, I am not here to ask for amnesty t implicate people saying they did this and that, meanwhile they didn't, with the aim of getting myself or my application approved.

I am saying again I never found or heard or found Themba Khosa at a meeting or heard him speaking what you said he said. If he said something, it might be before I arrived at the meeting.

MR BERGER: What did he say when you were at the meeting?

MR KHANYILE: I would say sir, this was not - it wasn't a real meeting. There were questions from the Police who were investigating about the incident.

MR BERGER: Was there a time in the meeting where Themba Khosa asked the workers apart from the Police, in other words not in the presence of the Police, is it true that you are responsible for this attack, did that happen?

MR KHANYILE: No, I never heard.

MR BERGER: Can you remember actual issues which were discussed at that meeting?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, the things which were asked which I can still remember is where were we during the 17th, whether we know anything and that Police wanted us to assist them in that investigation. Those are the things that I still remember.

MR BERGER: What time did that meeting end?

MR KHANYILE: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chair. Mr Khanyile, you will recall yesterday that you told the Committee that your co-applicant Mr Buthelezi was not involved in the attack on Boipatong.

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it is true. The other one whom I have just forgotten, it was Moses Mthembu.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Khanyile, ... (tape ends) ...

MR KHANYILE: The people I am mentioning, I am mentioning because I know their whereabouts on that day. About the others, I didn't see them at Boipatong, I just heard from themselves saying they were there.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, do I understand that you are saying that both Mr Mthembu and Mr Buthelezi were not present as a fact?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct, I know that very well.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Khanyile, sir I was listening to your explanation on the injured people of Boipatong being caught in the cross-fire of the battle. There is one kind of injury and assault that you haven't dealt with, and that is with the sexual assaults and the rape of the women during the course of the attack.

Do you have any knowledge about the raping and the sexual assaults on women that night, by the attackers?

MR KHANYILE: Since I haven't mentioned that, it explains that I didn't see that happening.

MS CAMBANIS: Did you not hear any of the men boasting subsequent to the attack that that was part of the activities that took place that evening in the township during the attack?

MR KHANYILE: You mean boasting with reference to the women they have raped, or with reference to exactly the whole incident of Boipatong?

MS CAMBANIS: With reference to the women they had raped and sexually assaulted?

MR KHANYILE: No, I didn't hear something like that.

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, it is our instructions and we are in possession at this stage, of at least 11 women who were either raped or sexually assaulted by the attackers during the course of the attack.

MR KHANYILE: I am hearing it for the first time from you.

MS CAMBANIS: And the nature of some of those attacks, that they were kicked in the genital area, that metal objects were inserted?

MR KHANYILE: I didn't even hear about this, even in court. I am hearing for the first time today.

MS CAMBANIS: So what is, you didn't hear it in court. What is the significance of that?

CHAIRPERSON: What he is saying is that he is hearing it for the first time.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair. Now finally Mr Khanyile, can you just tell me, this is the evidence that will be placed before the Committee by the victims. Can we agree that this is not part of any policy of any political party?

MR KHANYILE: I briefly explained this before that politics to the African people came as a new subject which was not known.

We were told that if anyone belongs to a particular organisation which is not the same organisation you are in, it is an enemy. In those days I am trying to explain that we didn't know anything about politics, and we don't even know the meaning of the word politics.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Chairperson, if I can just interrupt at this stage. Towards the end of the hearing at the previous occasion, I asked for the various legal representatives for the family to provide us with a list of who they appear for.

Certain statements are being made by Ms Cambanis and she mentions 11 people that will make certain allegations. We would like the names of the people that she appear for so that we can then do our own investigations, otherwise we may end up at a later stage that we will have to do investigations at that time, delaying the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sure she is going to give you those names because she now has 11 persons who will make those allegations. I am sure she will give those names to you.

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objections to that?

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair, I do not mind disclosing the names to the Committee and to the legal representatives. I am not happy, the clients are not happy that their names be made public. So subject to that, yes, I will make the names ...

CHAIRPERSON: There you have it. Mr Malindi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Mr Khanyile, may I just ask you one question. Look at page 106 which is your affidavit. Do you have it before you?

The last sentence of your affidavit on page 106, if I am translating the Afrikaans correctly, you said what happened in Boipatong should not have happened. Do I understand you well that there are other means by which this friction could have been resolved?

MR KHANYILE: I would like to briefly explain sir.

CHAIRPERSON: He has given you what he is understanding of what you are saying in Afrikaans at page 106. Do you agree with his translation, that is the first question?

MR STRYDOM: The witness does not understand Afrikaans, but what I can say is that I do not agree with his translation.

MR MALINDI: Mr Khanyile, may I just read the sentence as it is in Afrikaans. "Die situasie het hande uitgeruk en moes nooit eers so ver gevorder het nie."

My translation would be that the situation should not have gone as far as it did. Do you agree with me?

MR KHANYILE: What I was trying to tell my lawyer was that the reason why we have to take a decision to attack is that the situation was out of hand, because the government in charge at that time, was not able to protect the civilians. That is what I was trying to bring over. If he wrote it the other way around, then it is not my fault.

MR MALINDI: If that is what you intended to convey, do you agree today that there were other means available to resolve this conflict, other than launching that vicious attack on the community of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: There wasn't even a single inch or small way of doing it. I am saying this because of the following reasons: There wasn't going to be any peaceful settlement or discussion because of the prevailing situation. Secondly with reference to the law and order, I have explained that the government in charge at the time was not able to protect the people - each and every individual had to take the law into his or her own hand.

I have also given an example that a lot of IFP followers were burnt during daylight and many women who were burnt during daylight because it was alleged that they were in love with IFP members.

Many IFP houses were burnt during daylight and many African IFP members when going to town, who were abducted and put into booths and burnt in the township. In all this incidents, not even a single person was charged or convicted on such criminal acts which shows that the government of that day was failing in ruling and governing.

Up to today not even a single person came out to say we know this happened, like we did today before the Committee.

MR MALINDI: The Senior Committee at kwaMadala hostel and the Youth Committee could not have approached their ANC leadership in Boipatong or any other organisations existing in the community to resolve this conflict?

MR KHANYILE: That leader of the ANC, if he or she was seen standing next to an Inkatha leader, was going to be burnt with a tyre on that particular day.

What I am trying to explain sir, is any person who had (indistinct) on position, if your neighbour hated you, he will just point or say you are an Inkatha member, therefore you would be killed instantly.

MR MALINDI: Were any attempts made by the kwaMadala leadership to engage the help of higher organs of the IFP in resolving the conflict with the community of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: I don't remember that, if it did happen or not.

MR MALINDI: It would have been an alternative to launching an attack, isn't it so?

MR KHANYILE: I don't understand your question, may you please repeat.

MR MALINDI: Instead of launching an attack on the community of Boipatong, another way to resolve this conflict would have been to approach higher organs of the IFP to resolve the conflict with the community of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: I believe sir when you refer to higher leaders, I think you know that for Mr Mandela, the President to meet Chief Buthelezi, took a long time. I don't know which people could have met during those times as leaders of the organisations.

MR MALINDI: A moment ago you explained why the situation had come to the point where you had to launch an attack. Could you tell the Committee more or less how many IFP people were burnt by residents of Boipatong?

MR KHANYILE: If I remember those who were burnt Boipatong very well, it was Bongani Mbatha, Nomvula, Mr Khumalo - I forgot his name, Mr Gus who was a newsreader or the spokesperson of the IFP, Mr MBele who was abducted when coming from work in the evening, and killed somewhere. I would say there are many, but I can only mention those whom I can still remember.

And further I can say that it was not only at Boipatong where we were being killed. The whole Vaal, it was the same, it was happening everywhere in the Vaal.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination? I can't see you Mr Da Silva. Do you have any questions to put to this witness?

MS BOTHA: I have no questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BOTHA

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: As it pleases you Mr Chairman. Mr Khanyile, will you please look at Annexure J, the plan of Boipatong.

I see you have got Exhibit J before you, I understand from your evidence that the group moved down Msheshwe Street and turned into a northerly direction into Leqwa Street. Is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: Those who turned on Leqwa Street was the group which I was in.

MR DA SILVA: I understand from your evidence that in that vicinity before turning, that you saw a group of comrades next to a fire, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: May you please repeat, I didn't get it well.

MR DA SILVA: Is it correct that before your group turned into Leqwa Street, you saw a group of comrades next to a fire?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Is it also correct that the entrance into Boipatong where the comrades were standing, that that was barricaded with tree stumps?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the last part of your question?

MR DA SILVA: Is it correct?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, it was like that.

MR DA SILVA: So do you agree that vehicles could not move in the street, or it was very difficult to move in the streets of Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question? Is the question that the vehicles could not move or is the question that it was difficult for them to move?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, the question is that it was very difficult for vehicles to move in the streets of Boipatong.

MR KHANYILE: What I can say, I would say it was possible for vehicles to move, but it would be difficult.

MR DA SILVA: There was a question put to you by Mr Berger in regard to a Buffel, armed vehicle, moving in the vicinity of Slovo Park. Your answer to that question was that you only saw soldiers on leaving Boipatong. At no time did you see any Police or soldiers. That was your answer.

What I want to know from you, your evidence is that at no time you saw any soldiers inside Boipatong, is that what you meant?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, that is what I am saying and I would like to stress that since it is said that we are to speak the truth here, I don't know how many have applied for amnesty in connection with this incident, but I believe that not even a single Police or soldier or white person who will come and make an application to say he or she did take part in the attack of the people at Boipatong. I am trying to stress that it never happened that Police or soldiers were involved, or white people.

I only saw soldiers when we were getting out of Boipatong. As to where they were when we entered Boipatong, I might not know.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Khanyile, will you please look at Exhibit M1, being the aerial photograph. According to that Exhibit, if you will see there is a point marked K, that apparently is the tree where the group gathered.

Does that appear to be correct?

MR KHANYILE: It looks like it, it is the way you say.

MR DA SILVA: If you still look at Exhibit M1, you will see there is a point marked H. That appears to be the foot bridge, or the pedestrian bridge. Is that where the group crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR KHANYILE: I think it is correct.

MR DA SILVA: If you look further at Exhibit M1, you will see there is a further point, marked C. Is that the Trek garage where the armed vehicles retreated to?

MR KHANYILE: Yes, I can see.

MR DA SILVA: Could you estimate the distance between point H and point C?

MR KHANYILE: I think it is about 400 metres.

MR DA SILVA: On crossing the foot bridge, how many people in uniform did you see, can you remember?

MR KHANYILE: I saw the soldiers' vehicle and also soldiers were at the back of the vehicle. I could see their hats, the camouflage hats or the plastic hats, or whatever.

I could only see by the way they were dressed and what was clearly visible, was their heads.

MR DA SILVA: The question was how many people do you recall seeing in uniform?

MR KHANYILE: I will say there were two who came to the office to speak to Mr Mthembu. I saw these two men, they were wearing uniform.

MR DA SILVA: The question is how many people did you see when you were crossing the pedestrian bridge at the Trek garage, how many people did you see in uniform?

MR KHANYILE: I didn't see.

MR DA SILVA: I understand your evidence to be that the people that you saw, had camouflaged uniforms, is that correct?

MR KHANYILE: They were wearing brown clothes.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination, Mr Strydom?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you Mr Chairperson. It was suggested to you that you are protecting various other groups. I want to ask you a few questions in that regard.

Do you have any reason to protect white people that might have been involved in the attack?

MR KHANYILE: Sir, I believe that I am the one that is in a difficult situation, therefore I will not try to protect someone who is living happily with his family and children.

This is the truth which cannot be contradicted, that Police or soldiers or white people were not involved in the attack. If someone can come and say other people were involved, it could only be the soldiers who saw us coming from Boipatong, and never arrested us.

MR STRYDOM: You testified that Mfana Zulu and Themba Khosa was not involved. Do you want to protect them for any reason?

MR KHANYILE: The evidence which cannot be denied or contradicted, that Mfana Zulu was not at the Vaal during the time. I was questioned about Mr Themba Khosa. I said I didn't know and it was true, I didn't know.

And further to explain further Mr Strydom, my aim for coming here was to come and tell the truth as it happened, and also the reason why it happened. And also for the sake of reconciliation.

If the main aim was just to get myself amnesty, I would say that is not true or the main aim. I am trying to explain that since because I want amnesty, I have to lie about other people, implicating them with things which they never did or say.

From there ...

ADV SIGODI: Mr Khanyile, please would you try and limit your answers to yes or no. I think Mr Strydom is your Counsel, he is leading you, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: One last question. You have heard the names of all the people that were killed during the trial, and you have also heard the names of all the people that were injured.

Did you bear a personal grudge against any one of those people, in an individual sense?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat the last part, the very last part of your question.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I want to know if he had a problem with any individual, did he know these people that were killed or did he have problems with any individual person of the people that got killed or injured?

MR KHANYILE: No.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. Just one little issue, Mr

Berger asked you about the Msinga contingent. What Mr Mthembu called the Msinga contingent and you said you knew of no such contingent. Is that right?

MR KHANYILE: Not that I didn't know, but they were not present.

MR LAX: Did you know of such a contingent?

MR KHANYILE: No, I didn't know, but I knew people from Msinga because I was staying with most of them in the same room. Others were staying next door or as I have already explained, there were about ten or less than ten.

MR LAX: You see these were people who we are told, had the job of defending the hostel and you don't know anything about those people?

MR KHANYILE: Within ourselves, there is no one who is defended by someone else, so I would say there wasn't such a thing.

MR LAX: So there was no Self Protection group within the hostel itself?

MR KHANYILE: All of us as the inmates, were protecting the hostel. There was no group who was given the duty to protect the hostel.

MR LAX: And just one last thing. We were told that monies were raised from those that were working, people had to contribute money towards buying food for these people. Do you know anything about that?

MR KHANYILE: Monies which I have knowledge of, which were collected in kwaMadala hostel, is monies which were collected when one of our members who passed away, if one of them passed away, we used to contribute money for the funeral and we also collected some monies as men to buy things so that when we got attacked, we would be able to defend ourselves.

Those are the monies that I know of.

MR LAX: These things you are talking about, are you talking about firearms?

MR KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Khanyile, what is your level of education?

MR KHANYILE: I went up to standard 8, but I didn't pass standard 8.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Khanyile, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, might - it does not have anything to do with Mr Khanyile, but as a result of one of his answers, might I formally direct a request through you to Adv Prior if we could see the amnesty applications for the Policemen and soldiers who have made applications for amnesty in respect of events in the Vaal? We need the permission of the TRC to have sight of those documents, only the TRC can wave the privilege.

CHAIRPERSON: You have to make an substantive application for that. As you know that applications for amnesty are confidential matters, until there is a hearing.

MR DA SILVA: Yes, that is why I am asking. Are you saying that we must make a substantive application to you or in the court?

CHAIRPERSON: Discuss the matter with Mr Prior.

Mr Strydom, are you ready with your next witness? I am sorry, I see that it is about half past one. We will take the lunch adjournment now, we will come back at quarter past two.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. Return to the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory site.