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This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.

Name: Mplupeki S Tshabangu

12-08-1998: Day 2

Application No: Am 7391/97

ON RESUMPTION

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next applicant is Mplupeki Samu Tshabangu. His application number is 7391/97.

CHAIRPERSON: May we first hear what language is he going to speak?

MR TSHABANGU: I will speak Zulu.

MPLUPEKI SAMU TSHABANGU: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu, you applied for amnesty and signed a form in terms of the Act. Can you just confirm your signature as it appears on page 167 of the Bundle.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, it is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: Annexed to the application, are two pages, page 168 and page 169 which answers certain questions contained in the application. Do you confirm the contents of the annexures?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I confirm.

MR STRYDOM: You were also asked certain further particulars and answers were provided on page 172, 173, 174 of the Bundle. Do you confirm the correctness of your answers?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And then you made an affidavit on page 175 up to page 179. Do you confirm the correctness of this affidavit?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I confirm.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Tshabangu, are you a Zulu person?

MR TSHABANGU: No. I am Tsangaan, Tsonga.

MR STRYDOM: Where were you born?

MR TSHABANGU: At Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: So can I take it that you know Boipatong, the streets in Boipatong and the whole area of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go to school in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And did you later join the South African Police Service?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst at school, did you hold any position with any political organisation?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I was a member of COSAS.

MR STRYDOM: You membership with COSAS, did that lead to any trouble for you?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Can you explain please?

MR TSHABANGU: I would say what happened is during my school days, the youth in Boipatong was very active in politics. Inside the school we only had COSAS as the only organisation or student movement.

While I was in COSAS some houses belonging to the Police of the Municipality were burnt at Boipatong and it was alleged that I was one of the persons who were involved in the burning of those houses. I appeared in court and I was charged for burning those houses.

I won the case. After finishing my matric, I stayed around looking for work in the firms and other places. I ended up working with the SAP.

MR STRYDOM: Now, did that create problems for you, the fact that you joined the SAP?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes. Because after that, my former school mates turned against me and I was regarded as an enemy within the community. I think it was because they thought I was an instrument of apartheid.

The problems started from that time.

MR STRYDOM: At that stage when you were in the Police Force, were you still living in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Why did, or let me ask you this, did you at a certain stage leave Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I once left Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just explain why did you leave Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: During that time, there was intensive fighting within the townships, the war was against the Police or any people who were against the ANC. On one particular day I went to work. As a Policeman I was asked to go to Sharpville and I was working in Sharpville, I was told to cool down the fighting in Sharpville.

As I was approaching Sharpville along Vuga Street, I met a big or large group of people. They said here comes in Sotho, the little boy who is cheeky.

Since I was in a van, they pulled me out of the car. The other one said let's shoot him, the others said no and I managed to escape. It was on a Sunday if I remember well.

The following Monday, it was discovered in the morning that the person involved was a teacher Leqwa Shando. The children marched to the Sharpville police station because of this incident. I was charged with criminal cases of attempted murder in this incident.

The attacks continued, directed against the Police and they were attacked by the youth who were aligned to the ANC and I wasn't staying in the township during that time, because most Policemen have to run out due to the fact that their houses were being burnt down, some of them died.

One day I visited my friend in a shibeen together with some of my other friends. A group of youth came, this youth were known to me, they were staying around Boipatong. They asked me to come out of the yard, it was at night. I said to them if you want me, you know where I stay, you can come to my home so that we can talk. Because I could see that they were prepared to fight me.

As I was sitting in the house, they came into the house. I was stabbed with a knife and also with a spade fork and they hit me with bricks. I was rescued by one of the Police who was present, who shot in the air and they ran away. I went to hospital and I was discharged.

When coming from hospital, I went to the parents of the youth since I knew them, we grew up together. Even our parents knew each other. It was the Zwane family, at Letsia in Boipatong.

I went to the mother and explained that her child have injured me and I asked them that we should sit down and talk as parents so that we can solve the problem.

The mother chased me away, saying that she doesn't want to get involved with youth issues which occurred in shibeens. I went to Vanderbijl police station to open a case. After three days, I went to the police station in Vanderbiljpark to tell the Investigating Officer that I did see the person who injured me and I demanded reasons why he wasn't arrested.

No answer was given. During the time Police were busy with investigations of investigating people who were well known, children and comrades.

MR STRYDOM: Can I just ask you to talk a bit slower, I see the Interpreters will fall behind.

MR TSHABANGU: The Police were afraid to investigate cases against the comrades, because they know very well that if you were seen as a Policeman who has arrested a comrade, you and your family are in danger or in trouble.

I did meet the youth who injured me. I was with my friends in town. We were in the same athletic club with me, I asked him, saying to him brother, since you have injured me, I just want to find out the reason why. He said to me I am an informer.

I got angry, we started beating the young man extensively and he died. That contributed towards the anger against me, there were so many attempts to kill me. I remember one incident when we had a ceremony where we slaughtered a lamb at home, it was in winter and the electricity was not working in the township.

I was asleep in my bed at around eight o'clock. I heard sounds or cracking of firearms or automatic rifles, directed towards my house. There were in the house my mother, my relatives who just visited the house and children. This happened and it passed. Even if I can't be specific with reference to dates and times, but these are the things that happened in Sharpville specifically, in Voka, we were sitting there, we were called, I was together with Bongani Mbatha and we were called and said, they said in Sotho, here are the Zulu's.

They took out, they surrounded us and they were armed, heavily armed. They said Bongani Mbatha should go, they were looking for me only. They surrounded me. Fortunately our of pure luck, I hit someone with my fist since I wasn't armed, fall on the ground and I got a passage to escape and I ran.

They shot at me as I was running away. When I was turning, they also threw a hand grenade. I was injured on my leg and I was admitted in hospital. This is one of the incidents that took place. So many times I was attacked, and also my family was attacked.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give the Committee just an indication of what period you refer to, which year?

MR TSHABANGU: I am talking with reference to between 1989 and 1992 or 1990.

MR STRYDOM: At that stage, were you a member of the IFP or not?

MR TSHABANGU: I was not an IFP member at the time. I became an IFP member after I went to live at KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you go to KwaMadala hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: It was the only hiding place I could stay. There wasn't any place I could go to be protected.

I could see that if I was to go and stay at any township in Vaal, whether with relatives, I could be killed at any time.

There were people whom I knew who were close to me, I was requested to go and stay with them because I was running away from being killed or burnt by the comrades.

MR STRYDOM: You gave me a photograph which shows or depicts names on a wall. Can you just give the Committee more information about what is written on the wall and where did you get this photograph from?

MR TSHABANGU: It is written Nana and Getisu, wanted dead or alive.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where that picture was taken?

MR TSHABANGU: It was taken in the house of Buthelezi in Boipatong, Matolo Street.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if that was written on the wall before the Boipatong massacre or thereafter?

MR TSHABANGU: It was before the Boipatong massacre. I also wish to add that it wasn't only, this was not only written in Boipatong, it was written in Sharpville and also Sebokeng.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, there was an agreement between the parties before this party started, that any documents which were going to be used by the parties, would be circulated beforehand. We have not received copies of that photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: It is coming to you now.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to continue from the time you went to stay in KwaMadala hostel.

MR TSHABANGU: I stayed in KwaMadala hostel, we were locked in a kraal. We are children who grew up in a township. We are not used to live under such conditions. I will say each and every person who stayed at KwaMadala didn't like to live under such conditions.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the status of this photograph?

MR STRYDOM: I can just mention that I only received that photograph today, that is the reason why I didn't make copies. The status of the photograph, it was handed over by the person who took the photograph, to this witness. He did not take the photograph, but he says that he was aware of his name that were written all over the townships, but if need be, I will investigate who the photographer is and try to get hold of him to testify, if it is disputed that that photograph was taken by or in Boipatong.

I would ask the photograph to be handed in as an Exhibit. The next number is N, Exhibit N.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any objection to this photograph being handed in?

MR BERGER: I have no instructions Chairperson, on the status of this photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the last Exhibit.

MR STRYDOM: The last Exhibit was M, so I will ask this photograph to be handed in as Exhibit N.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR STRYDOM: At the stage you moved into KwaMadala hostel, what happened to your parents, did they stay behind in Boipatong or not?

MR TSHABANGU: Before I can answer that question, I would like to state that where it is written Nana and Getisu, wanted dead or alive, these writings still exist.

My parents took me with them after my dad was caught coming from work in Iscor and he was burnt. Even today, he cannot do anything, he can't work to support my brothers, he is permanently paralysed. Therefore the duty of supporting or bringing up the children and my mother who has diabetes, it is within my hands. As I am sitting here today, I don't have a home because our house was burnt down at Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: After your parents' house was burnt down at Boipatong, where did they move to?

MR TSHABANGU: We went to hire a place at Vereeniging in one house. After four months or five, we were forced to leave because we didn't have money to pay rent to the white owner. So we had to move to KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who was responsible for the burning of your father?

MR TSHABANGU: I knew it very well as to who burnt my father. I once met them and talked to them, they also admitted that they burnt him.

MR STRYDOM: Who were they? The question is these people who admitted to you that they had burnt your father, who are they?

MR TSHABANGU: It is Nunuza who is now a member of the SANDF, Maboni from Malibogo in Boipatong, Makit.

MR STRYDOM: As far as your knowledge goes, these people that you have mentioned, did they belong to any political organisation?

MR TSHABANGU: They are members of the African National Congress.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were staying in Boipatong, was there a group ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr, I am sorry, you have just given the names of Nunuza, Maboni and Malibogo and the last one was, the last person?

MR TSHABANGU: Chairperson, I would like to rectify. I said Maboni staying at Malibogo Street at Boipatong and Nunuza and Makit.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how to spell the name of Makit?

MR TSHABANGU: Makit.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the addresses of these people?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know the house numbers, however I know that Maboni stays together with Makit. Nunuza was staying, I last knew him staying at the place that I mentioned earlier, (indistinct), that is the place mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where he works?

MR TSHABANGU: In 1997, the last time I saw him he was a member of the SANDF, I don't know now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, it seems to me that in terms of Section 30 of the Act, these individuals who have been mentioned by Mr Tshabangu, have been implicated in a manner which may be detrimental to them and that they should receive the appropriate notice in terms of that Section. Thank you.

ADV PRIOR: I will see that it is attended to Mr Chairman.

MR STRYDOM: After you moved into KwaMadala Hostel, did you continue to experience problems?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, problems continued and they intensified. There is a lot I can say, it could be a long letter if I had to write everything down. I was enclosed in a kraal together with the people who were inmates of the hostel, we couldn't go wherever we wanted to go at a time when we wanted to go out.

We couldn't even go to church or to go to a funeral of a close friend, or visiting a friend, even going to town or to a clinic or to a hospital. We were not able to go out. If you had to go out, you were placing your life in danger.

MR STRYDOM: Did you complain to anybody in the hostel about your situation?

MR TSHABANGU: During those days, I did not specifically go to a certain person to complain about the conditions. All the people could see or it was clear to everyone that we are having a problem, until we explained to Mr Mkhize in the stadium that we are now tired, that we are killed one by one, he should give us permission to go and fight and defend ourselves.

That was the only time one person complained.

MR STRYDOM: During the evidence of the previous applicant I mentioned certain names to him, I referred him to a certain newspaper clipping. I don't want to repeat each and every incident, but do you confirm those incidents and your knowledge that you know about it?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I do confirm that. Especially if I were to briefly state something about Teacher Mbele. Teacher Mbele did teach us while we were doing standard three in primary school.

When the violence erupted and people were burnt, I was very close to Mr Mbele. He was like a friend even though he was older than me. I used to visit him, we could sit and watch TV together or do things like friends.

The reason why he was killed, I think it was because of the visit that I paid him together with my friend who passed away, Sidiso. We visited Teacher, Mr Mbele. We asked to sleep in his house. We stayed there and we had a wonderful time.

A friend of mine was burnt the same day with Mr Mbele, was Fere. On the following day when we were to leave, we got a message that he had been necklaced, burnt with a tyre and Fere was also necklaced.

I think what caused the death was because of the visit we paid to him.

MR STRYDOM: Approximately how long was that before the attack on Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I can't say. Let me say I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it have been one year or two years before?

MR TSHABANGU: If I am not mistaken, I think it is less than six months. If I remember well.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Strydom, can you just repeat the name of the second person, I just didn't catch it properly. Your friend, not Teacher Mbele the other person.

MR TSHABANGU: Fere.

MR LAX: Was that his surname or his first name?

MR TSHABANGU: It is the name through which we knew him. We used to know him, he was known as Mfere Fere and we as his friends, we used to call him Fere.

MR STRYDOM: Now, there was already mention of the meetings that took place before the attack on Boipatong. I want you to comment and state your version of what happened at the meeting where Mr Mkhize was chairing that meeting before the attack.

MR TSHABANGU: On that day, we were asked or requested to attend a meeting. We gathered and a lot of things were discussed.

Up to a stage where Mkhize had to take the stage and speak, Mkhize said stay vigilant and be prepared for a battle against the people who are always killing you, and after that, we dispersed.

He said he can't say which day, what time and where, but we should always be ready.

MR STRYDOM: What did you understand by that?

MR TSHABANGU: I understood this to mean that we should be prepared for the fight or battle.

MR STRYDOM: After that, but before the attack, did you hear anything further about the possibility of an attack on any Vaal community?

MR TSHABANGU: I am left behind, can you please repeat your question.

MR STRYDOM: After that meeting where Mr Mkhize said those things which you have just mentioned, did you hear anything further about the attack before the 17th of June 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: No, I didn't hear anything.

MR STRYDOM: What happened then on the 17th of June 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: The trumpet was blown, we went to the stadium. Arriving at the stadium, Mr Mkhize addressed us telling us that we should go fetch our arms because the day has arrived. I will say women and children did come to the stadium, they were requested to go back to the hostel.

We, the men, went back and took our arms. I personally fetched a knopkierie and the others went back to fetch whatever weapons they had and we went back to the stadium.

We were told while we were in the stadium, that there are firearms, those who want to use them, can come and collect them. I was one of those who wanted an AK47 and because the number was small, the number of firearms was not enough I found that they had already finished all the AK47's, so I was armed with a knopkierie. We were sprinkled with intelezi and then we left KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: At the stadium when you arrived back with your knopkierie, who was the people in control?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you carrying a knopkierie or a stick?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, it is a knopkierie.

CHAIRPERSON: You were carrying an ordinary stick?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, an ordinary stick. When I am referring to stick, I don't mean a small stick that you can pick from a tree, I mean a stick, big stick which you can hit a person to the extent that he can die.

MR STRYDOM: I asked you who the people in control were at the stadium when you returned with the stick?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't remember exactly those people. I think Mkhize was one of the people who were in charge at the stadium.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember what instructions if any, was given at the stadium before you left the hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: I never heard any instruction discussed.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you decide to join the group to go to Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I think we have the common suffering, the people who stay within the KwaMadala hostel, as opposed to those who were staying outside the hostel. Therefore I identified myself with them, with reference to things like burning and other many things.

We were also the victims because the ANC attacks were directed against us. I think there are many reasons, but I think the few that I mention are the most important reasons why I identified with the group and I accompanied them.

MR STRYDOM: Did you realise that some people may identify you in Boipatong?

INTERPRETER: Please may you repeat the last part of your statement?

MR STRYDOM: Did the applicant realise that certain people may identify him in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, it did come to my mind.

MR STRYDOM: But why did you go nevertheless?

MR TSHABANGU: I have already convinced myself that I won't enter the houses because it was going to be easy for them to recognise me in the houses. I stayed in that place for more than 20 years.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you also called Nana?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to have a look at the aerial photograph in front of you, that is Exhibit M1. Can you just show the route and explain the route that the group followed into Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know where I have to start, is this the line, a railway line?

MR STRYDOM: Just have a look at the Exhibit, do you understand the Exhibit. Do you see the hostel, do you see Boipatong townships and do you see the factories?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you leave the hostel through the main gate?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you - I am going to lead the witness where I think there is no dispute, did you follow the route adjacent to the tar or in the tar towards Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Close to the intersection of Nobel Boulevard and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, one can see a certain area with what appears to be a hedge or trees surrounding that area. Can you just explain what that is?

MR TSHABANGU: It is a nursery. We went behind it.

MR STRYDOM: If you say behind it, did the group move through the veld towards that pedestrian bridge?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see on the Exhibit what appears to be a tree next to the township?

MR TSHABANGU: If you are referring to point K, yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did the group move passed that tree?

MR TSHABANGU: What happened is when we arrived under the tree, we all sat down. Then we divided into two groups and walked down Msheshwe Street and entering Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Msheshwe Street is the most southern street of Boipatong, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Which group were you?

MR TSHABANGU: I was in Mr Qonqo's group.

MR STRYDOM: Where did that group enter Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: We proceeded along Msheshwe Street, we turned up and entered Leqwa Street.

MR STRYDOM: Did anything of note happen in that area?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, something happened. As we proceeded along Msheshwe Street, in one point I think it is Tserela Combined School, the place was barricaded with razor wire and some few logs. We removed the barrication out of the way and we proceeded.

We removed the wire which was used to barricade the street. We proceeded and before we reached Leqwa Street, we met a group of young people, I think they were SDU members. Then the shooting took place from both sides.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see who fired shots in your group?

MR TSHABANGU: If I remember well, it is Damara who shot.

MR STRYDOM: What kind of weapon did he have?

MR TSHABANGU: An AK47.

MR STRYDOM: After the shots were fired, what happened to the people you referred to as the Self Defence Unit?

MR TSHABANGU: They retreated, started running away, jumping the fences, entering into some of the houses, were insulting them and our group went up along Leqwa Street where they ran, the other group continued along Msheshwe Street.

MR STRYDOM: What did you do in Boipatong?

MR LAX: Sorry, just before you go on. You said something about inciting people, they were jumping over fences, inciting people. What did you mean by that?

CHAIRPERSON: Insulting?

MR TSHABANGU: I said we were insulting them. I am one of those who were insulting them.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into any houses in Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. When you left the hostel, you were a big group, right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... which is K< I think it is, is that where you first split into two groups?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And your group entered through Msheshwe Road?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what happened to the other group?

MR TSHABANGU: We divided into two groups, but both groups were using the same street to enter.

CHAIRPERSON: So both groups were in Msheshwe?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You then mentioned that when the people that you believed to be SDU members, ran into Leqwa Street?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which group was this now?

MR TSHABANGU: It was the group which turned to the left at Leqwa Street, which was under the command of Mr Qonqo. The other group proceeded along Leqwa Street, I don't know who was in charge of the group.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it at that stage that the group split and went into different directions?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: I am sorry to come in Mr Strydom. I have heard two different things from you now. Earlier you said the other group proceeded along Msheshwe Street, now you are saying they proceeded along Leqwa Street, can we just clarify this, I am a bit confused.

MR TSHABANGU: We left the tree, divided into two groups. Two groups proceeded towards the same direction, along we joined Msheshwe Street as two groups proceeding to the same direction.

Where Leqwa crosses on our left, crosses Msheshwe Street, after the shooting that occurred against us and the SDU's, the group which was under the command of Qonqo went to Leqwa Street and the other group continued or proceeded along Msheshwe Street, that is what I am trying to explain.

MR LAX: That is what I thought you said in the beginning, that is why I wanted to correct it because the way it was translated now was that both groups went up and split up Leqwa Street. So I just wanted to clarify that, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: As your group moved along in the streets of Boipatong, were they always in a tight unit or did they split up in smaller groups as they went along?

MR TSHABANGU: We were divided, we were divided into small groups.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give the names of people that walked close to you that you can remember?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't remember all of them, I will try to mention those who I can still remember. Damara was with us, Themba, Stals who is also an applicant in this hearing, Dondo is also an applicant ...

MR LAX: You are going a bit too fast. Just slow down a little bit. I got as far as Stals, you said Stals was an applicant, what is his surname?

MR TSHABANGU: His name is Timothy Stals Mazibuko. Dondo Jack Mbele who is an applicant. Tebogo Ruben is also an applicant, and others whom I can't remember now.

MR LAX: You mentioned a Themba, who is Themba?

MR TSHABANGU: That is Themba Maboti.

MR LAX: And you mentioned a Dondo?

MR TSHABANGU: He is Dondo Jack Mbele.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into any houses in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I entered into one of the houses. I don't remember which house.

I think it is those houses along Mzimvubu going up, I destroyed things in the houses.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to look at Exhibit J, that is the plan of Boipatong. First just have a look at it, do you understand the manner in which it is set out?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I do understand.

MR STRYDOM: The group that you were in, can you explain the route you followed through Boipatong, up to the stage you left Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: We entered through Msheshwe Street, we turned on Leqwa and continued, we went to Hlewi and Amadon. That is the route we followed from the time we entered and the time we went out.

MR STRYDOM: Did you personally attack any person in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes. Yes, there was one whom I came across who was running, I can't remember the name of the street where I cam across this. I hit him very hard with a stick. That is the person I attacked.

Further I also entered into a house and destroyed things. I destroyed things like TV and other things. I can't remember all, I can't remember whether I destroyed a glass on top of something or not.

All that I know is that I destroyed a lot of things in that house, I also destroyed things inside and outside. I could have destroyed anything, a window, a car, anything which I could destroy.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you destroy property in those houses or that house, and outside the houses?

MR TSHABANGU: It was my contribution in the fight in which we were in. These are the things which I learnt from the Boipatong community, that things are to be destroyed.

MR STRYDOM: Did you personally witness any killing of any person?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know how I should state this, with reference to the killing of people.

What I am going to say is the person that shot, usually you will fall or try to limp, running away. I won't be able to say whether he is dead or not, because these things were happening as we were running and people were shot. I saw other people shooting some of the people. These are things that happened, however, I won't be able to say in this particular place, I saw someone dying.

However, I did see weapons which were dangerous used on other people, but I can't confirm that those people died or not.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from Damara who had a weapon, did you see, can you mention names of other people you saw with weapons in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: People were armed with various arms. Themba Mabotha had a 9 mm, if I remember well, he shot when we were passing the shops.

Ruben also shot several times. Dondo also fired several times and all the people I am mentioning, but I can't remember exactly as to who did what. I cannot deny if someone was to come and say someone did this and that, since I had not seen that.

MR STRYDOM: Did your group go to Slovo Park or not?

MR TSHABANGU: We didn't reach Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry to interrupt you Mr Strydom, Mr Tshabangu, on this map which is Exhibit G, I think it is. Using this pink highlight, would you indicate on this map the route that you followed when you, the point at which you entered and the point at which you went out? Can you do that?

MR TSHABANGU: Sir, I would like to find out whether you are referring to my group, yes, sir I can state the point at which we entered. I have a problem with the exit, I can't remember whether it is Mafikeng or Matolo of Hlewi, therefore I said in one of those streets.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible to indicate with the highlighter as far as you can remember, but if you don't remember, don't make any mark, do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes. I have a problem in remembering, because there are three streets that were used to get out. I will not remember which one I used to get out. I do not know what to do.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can't recall, it doesn't matter. All I wanted to do was just to indicate as far as you can remember. If you don't, don't do anything.

MR LAX: So Mr Tshabangu, just having looked at the red mark you have made on the map, it stops at the interception of Hlewi and Leqwa Streets?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: And that is because you are not sure what happened from that point onwards?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: After you left Boipatong, did you follow the same route that you followed when you went to Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I am not sure whether we went back via the back of the nursery. I should think that we might use the street which goes to ...

INTERPRETER: There is a confusion here. Maybe he should repeat because we are not understanding exactly what he is saying.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry the Interpreter can't hear you and they are not sure what you are saying, would you mind just repeating what you said.

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember which way we used to go back, whether we went at the back of the nursery, I don't remember.

But I know that we didn't use the street which is adjacent to the firms. We only used the street, this particular street when we were about to enter the bridge next to KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Did you use the foot bridge close to Frikkie Meyer Boulevard to cross Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: What happened when you got back into the hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: We entered the hostel, I don't remember exactly who said to us that we should enter our respective rooms as quickly as possible, that is what happened.

MR STRYDOM: Are you aware of any of the looted goods that came back from Boipatong, that was burnt afterwards?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember who gave the instruction to burn the goods?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you partake in the burning of the goods?

MR TSHABANGU: I went to watch the burning of the goods. I didn't burn them or help to burn them by turning them around or take anything to the fire because I personally didn't take anything from Boipatong, but I did see the goods being burnt.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember when these goods were burnt?

MR TSHABANGU: I think it was during the day, the following day, following the day of the attack, I would say in other words the 18th, during the day.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person with the name of Katsizi?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you know him from?

MR TSHABANGU: From KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: His real name is Victor Geswa, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Were you involved in any so called hitsquad activities either alone or with him?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of George Khumalo?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Were you involved with him in any unlawful activities?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Thinking back today about the attack, how do you feel about it?

MR TSHABANGU: I feel very bad about it. As I am speaking now, someone might think that I am proud of what had happened at Boipatong, but my soul is hurt. I have remembered things that happened to me which happened to other people because of me.

And other people who suffered because of the kind of life that they chose to live. About the cry of the people of Boipatong community during that night, I can't even explain, it is hurting. I don't have the words to explain how I feel, but it is painful.

MR STRYDOM: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM.

CHAIRPERSON: At this stage we will take a 15 minute adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION:

MPLUPEKI SIMON TSHABANGU: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu, when you arrived at the corner of Msheshwe and Leqwa Streets, you say that there was some barricades which you removed, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: No. We didn't remove these items right at the corner, but we removed them along Msheshwe next to Tserela Combined High School.

MR BERGER: Were there any obstacles in the road at the corner of Msheshwe and Leqwa Streets?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: Were there any obstacles in the road at the entrance to the township in Msheshwe Street?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't be able to answer with reference to the entrance. I will say at the beginning of Msheshwe Street, not at the first or second house, but right at the beginning of Msheshwe.

MR BERGER: What was right at the beginning of Msheshwe Street?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: You see, what I want to put to you is that it was quite possible for vehicles to drive, to enter Boipatong and to drive through the streets of Boipatong that night, would you agree?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, in some roads it was possible. I can't deny that it will be possible for a car to travel along those streets, however, the fact is I and the people who were with me in the other group, did not at any stage travel in a car from the time we left KwaMadala until the time we went back to KwaMadala hostel.

MR BERGER: I am not asking you about that Mr Tshabangu. I am asking you whether it was possible for vehicles to enter Boipatong and to drive through the streets of Boipatong at the time when you were there.

MR TSHABANGU: I stated that it was possible that a car could be travelling in some of the streets.

MR BERGER: Which streets are you referring to?

MR TSHABANGU: I can't say precisely which streets, I am trying to recall. The plan, the conditions in the streets during the time as there were some who were barricaded and some who were not, but I can't specifically say in this particular street a car could travel or not.

MR BERGER: What I just want to put to you is that shortly before the attack, the Police fired shots in Boipatong to clear the streets of young men.

And shortly after the attack, ambulances were able to enter Boipatong, to drive through the streets of Boipatong and to remove the dead and injured. So, would you agree with me if I say that it was possible for that to have been done?

MR TSHABANGU: I am forced to agree with you because I can't remember. I heard during this year 1998 from my friends who stays at Boipatong when we attended a Truth Commission hearing at Boipatong, that before the incident, Police came and shot at people who were guarding the place.

MR BERGER: And by so doing, cleared the streets of those people, is that what you heard?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't confirm that they were clearing the streets or doing their Police work. I won't be able to answer on behalf of the Police.

MR BERGER: Is it correct Mr Tshabangu, that at the last hearing of these amnesty applications, you told members of the community who were gathered there that Mr Victor Mthembu was telling lies and that you would come and tell the truth?

MR TSHABANGU: I never said Victor lied. Victor says what he says himself as Victor Mthembu. I as Mplupeki Tshabangu, I am here to cleanse my heart. The words that I uttered from the time I started giving evidence, I tried to mention things which I know and things which I had seen. What Victor said is what he said. I can't answer on his behalf.

MR BERGER: Is it your evidence that you were chased out of Boipatong because of your connections with the Police?

MR TSHABANGU: It is one of the reasons. There are many reasons. In my evidence I have stated that at the time I was a COSAS member, thereafter I became an instrument of oppression under the government which oppressed the people, that matter put me in a situation where I became an enemy against the community who thought I might have sold them out.

As I have explained about the teacher whom I shot, Zwane gentleman who died, might be some of the reasons which created the animosity between me and the community and also my friendship with the IFP. I will say these are some of the reasons.

MR BERGER: Isn't the reason that you fled Boipatong, the death of Lita Zwane?

MR TSHABANGU: It is one of the reasons, but it is not the only reason.

MR BERGER: Isn't it also correct that you fought with Lita Zwane over a girlfriend?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Do you know a woman by the name of Maga Pagati? Pagati is her mother's name?

MR TSHABANGU: I know Maga, but I don't know Maga Pagati. The Maki that I know, Maki was never in love with Lita. Lita provoked me, he stabbed me while in the company of other men. He was very active in the activities of the ANC.

MR BERGER: Was Maga your girlfriend?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And is it not correct that she was also having a relationship with Lita Zwane?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: And isn't it correct that you tied Lita Zwane to a tree and removed his genitals?

MR TSHABANGU: That is very wrong. I think you have been given wrong information. I would like you to go and find out the dockets concerning the death of Lita Zwane, that will prove that with respect, what you are saying is not true, or it is a lie. That I tied him or cut his genitals, also with reference to the girlfriend relationship.

MR BERGER: Is it not correct that you dragged Lita Zwane with a car between Boipatong and Sharpville?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct. The report of the District Surgeon over the death of Lita Zwane, it was said the cause of death was brain haemorrhage because of the beatings he suffered from us.

At no stage was he dragged by a car.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that as a result of the death of Lita Zwane and the manner in which he had been killed, that you became persona non grata in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct. I would like to tell you or before I tell you what I want to tell you, I understand that when a person die, he cannot be taken exactly or treated the same as the death of a dog. The death of Lita was not a usual death. I would say to correct, his death was not different to the other deaths of people in the township.

My intention was not to kill him, however, he died out of this.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you were convicted of kidnapping?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: How did you kidnap Lita Zwane, what did you do?

MR TSHABANGU: I met him in town. I said I am going to open a case against him and that he should accompany me to the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, what is the relevance of this to the inquiry that is before us?

MR BERGER: The relevance Chairperson, is that this was a personal attack, not a political attack. It was personal, not political, the death of Lita Zwane.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, can I just mention that the applicant has been charged for his death, he has been convicted. That issue has been dealt with in a court of law already. The applicant is not applying for amnesty for the death of that specific person, Lita Zwane, so I submit that it is irrelevant at this stage.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, in the applicant's papers and particularly in his affidavit starting at page 175, he deals with the death of Lita Zwane.

He says at page 177 "die voorval wat gelei het tot my skorsing uit die Suid-Afrikaanse Polisie het plaasgevind voordat ek na KwaMadala getrek het. Ek het die persoon wat my by die sjibeen met die mes gesteek het, ontvoer en aangerand. Hy is later dood. Ek was strafregtelik daarvoor aangekla en gestraf tot agt jaar gevangenisstraf. Ek het die vonnis vanaf November 1992 uitgedien. Volgens my was die "something" rede vir hierdie rede vir hierdie optrede ook polities aangesien die aanval op my polities geïnspireer was."

I would have thought that that ...

CHAIRPERSON: He is not applying for amnesty in respect of the death of that individual, is that right Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: That is so.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, he confirmed his affidavit under oath. If I am not supposed to cross-examine him on certain aspects of his affidavit, then I will leave it out, but he draws the link between that political killing, he says that was also a political, meaning what he did in Boipatong was political.

I am attempting to show that the first one was not political. I can't take it any further than that.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I would submit that detail as to how Lita Zwane was killed, has got nothing to do with the issue. If the question is what the reason for his death was, that would be a question that would be allowed.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I need a direction on what I should do.

CHAIRPERSON: The submission is that the question of how he died, is irrelevant to the question of why he was killed. That is what the submission is. What do you say to that?

MR BERGER: I submit that the savagery of the attack, given the personal circumstances between him and Lita Zwane, tends to show that this was a personal feud which was taken to extremes.

If the witness is not telling the truth about it, I would like to probe, but Chairperson, I can't take it any further than that.

CHAIRPERSON: Put the question. Answer the question Mr Tshabangu.

MR TSHABANGU: Please repeat your question.

MR BERGER: You were telling us Mr Tshabangu, you were telling us how you abducted this man, you said you approached him, you told him you wanted to take him to the police station. That is when we were interrupted, so carry on from there.

MR TSHABANGU: I took him and I did that because the Investigating Officer on that case, was not willing or afraid to arrest him.

What I said, my first word when I came to him, I asked him why did you stab me. He didn't answer or said anything which made sense. He refused to go with me. I took him to the police station. He said I can do what I can do. Rembering that he did stab me, and he just started wit me, I didn't do anything, things got out of hand. I didn't take him to the police station then.

I was convinced that I wanted to avenge by assaulting him. My main aim was to inflict pain on him but the assault resulted in his death. That is what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Weren't you a member of the Police Force then?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Investigating Officer?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember his name, but I know him facially. He is stationed at Vanderbijl police station.

MR BERGER: Why do you say that when Lita Zwane stabbed you, that it was political?

MR TSHABANGU: It is because they approached me in the comrade fashion. As a person who knows the comrades, I stayed with them in the township, during those days they came and stood outside, started chanting and they called me to come out and that is the comrade fashion.

They said the aim was to remove all the Police from the community or the township and they were asking why was I still in the community while others have run away.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that at your hearing in connection with the death of Lita Zwane, you came across Mr Miga who is the father of Amos Miga who was killed by George Khumalo, you met Mr Miga at your hearing, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know which Miga you are referring to whose son was killed by George Khumalo. If he is present here, I would like to request that he will stand up. If you are referring to Zozo, I will say yes. If you are referring to a man known as Zozo, I would agree with you.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, can I ask Mr Miga to stand? Mr Tshabangu, that is Mr Miga.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: You encountered him at your hearing, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And at that hearing, you and Victor Geswa threatened to assault Mr Miga, isn't that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't know how this relates to the question of amnesty or the Boipatong incident, unless my learned friend can indicate, but I would ask the Committee to exercise its discretion and place reasonable limits on these collateral issues that are expending a lot of time away from the main, central issues Mr Chairman. Time is of the essence and although one doesn't want to stop my learned friend from canvassing issues, it certainly seems to be collateral matter which doesn't take the matter at hand, very much further.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I have two points in answer. The first is that it is our contention that Mr Nana Tshabangu and others including in particular Mr Victor Geswa, were part of a gang who were terrorising the community of Boipatong.

It was for those reasons and in particular the death of Lita Zwane that this applicant was forced out of Boipatong. It goes to the question of whether this was political or whether this was criminal.

The second point Chairperson, is that these are issues which are very close to the heart of many, many members of the community. In my consultations with the community, dealing with Nana Tshabangu, these are issues which have repeatedly come up. I understand that one of the purposes of these amnesty hearings, is reconciliation.

If I can't canvass these issues with this applicant, the members of the community are going to feel that the issues which are important to them, are being bottled up. That is the reason that I am pursuing this line.

MR LAX: Mr Berger, while you are quite correct that the purpose of the Act is, one of the purposes of the Act is to try and foster reconciliation. The purpose of these hearings is very specific in the Act and there has already been a human rights violations committee hearing which intended to canvass a whole broad variety of issues that you are now introducing and it was held in this part of the world and many of your clients would have been there and had that opportunity to ventilate those issues.

While we don't want to pour cold water on their feelings and we perfectly understand and respect their need for further elucidation, we also have a job to do with severe time constraints and we need to be a bit more focused and so, if you could try and keep the issues as narrow as possible, rather than opening up as many cans of worms as possible, we would facilitate our process a lot better.

CHAIRPERSON: If you want to put to this witness that he was part of a gang of criminals who were terrorising the township, put that to him. Let's not go around in circles, just put that to him and let's hear what his answer is.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with respect the applicant will deny it, and ...

CHAIRPERSON: But please put those facts to him and let's see what he has to say. Just put them to him.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, is it correct that you were part of a gang of criminals who were terrorising the community of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct. I knew that most people think like that. From what you get from the Boipatong community, me and my friend, we were not terrorising the community or going around terrorising the community.

I didn't understand or had the feeling that I go around terrorising, I am surprised when you mentioned Miga. I never even greeted a single person from Boipatong or speak to someone from Boipatong on the day of the trial of Lita because I knew we were enemies.

I was never a gang member and I will never be in my life.

MR BERGER: Victor Geswa was your good friend, am I right?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Was he your friend?

MR TSHABANGU: He was my comrade. I understood him to be my comrade.

MR BERGER: George Khumalo was also your comrade, was he not?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you deny that after the release of George Khumalo, that you, George Khumalo and Victor Geswa terrorised the area of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I deny all that because I believe that Victor Geswa ended up dying, people would know exactly who he was.

I would tell you something that you don't know, even today people don't know who is Nana, what kind of person is Nana. If you go and ask a particular person who is Nana, they will give you different descriptions.

I and George Khumalo never terrorised the community of Boipatong and if the community themselves understood this to mean that when we go back to the township where we were born and bred, where we have friends, if they consider as bad when we come in a car and we find them sitting in a group, they start driving away and they think it is the way we are terrorising them, that is wrong.

I used to travel in a car, and I will go to the township during the day unarmed, but I knew that my life was in danger. I used to take the grocery to where one of my children stays. I will find people standing in a group in a corner. When I appear in a car, they will run away and it will be painful to me like I have turned into an animal that people were running away from me, because I didn't understand why they were running away from me.

I don't know whether you consider that as a way of terrorising the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me understand this. You are saying that very few people know who Nana is.

MR TSHABANGU: What I am trying to explain, I am trying to explain that people talk about this person as if they know this person, meanwhile they don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the fact that people don't know what type of a person Nana is?

MR TSHABANGU: It is so sir. When they see me in the company of Katis, I would say most people when Katis died, they never knew what kind of person he was. I was saying this with reference to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why when people see you stop the car, they would run away?

MR TSHABANGU: I think it is because they were afraid of the things which they had done against me about the house that they burnt and the other things that I have mentioned before this Committee.

Maybe they were thinking that I knew that it is them and I will fight them or that I will fight because they did that and that to so and so. But it was not the case.

MR BERGER: Do you deny that George Khumalo killed Amos Miga?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't agree with this and I don't deny this. I don't know how he died, whether he was killed by George, when and why were the reasons of his death.

I don't know anything about the involvement of George Khumalo.

MR BERGER: Damara Qonqo was also your friend, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is wrong. He was one of the persons I was staying with in the hostel. Maybe you have to clarify or explain to me your own perception of what is a friend.

How shall a friend be? What kind of things do you do with your friend?

MR BERGER: Is it not also correct that Victor Geswa was known throughout the Vaal as the Vaal Monster?

MR TSHABANGU: He used to be referred to like that in Vaal.

MR BERGER: And why do you think you were associated on that wall that is depicted on the photograph, with the Vaal Monster as being wanted dead or alive, why the two of you?

MR TSHABANGU: I am not the only one whose name was written with his name on the wall. I can take you to (indistinct) in Vaal where his name is mentioned with other people names. I think people thought that he was a leader of something, something like a gang who always instruct people to go to this particular place to do this and that.

But that was not true.

MR BERGER: And your evidence was that this sign which said "Getisu and Nana wanted dead or alive", that appeared in Boipatong, Sharpville and Sebokeng?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct sir. It is as you say, at Sharpville, Boipatong, Sebokeng. People staying in these respective places, I would say it is only the people of Boipatong who can tell you why they associated me with this man. Maybe they know of anything that are common between me and him or any gang activities as they think. I will say that they are wrong.

MR BERGER: You will also see on that photograph, the slogan Viva PAC, do you see that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it therefore correct that at the time of the attack, you were aware that there were PAC supporters in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I was aware. What was happening at the time is all the small political organisations like PAC and others, were under the command of the ANC and if you were not in line with the ANC policies, you were to be necklaced with a tyre.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, I am not going to argue with you on that point, but you know very well that the ANC and the PAC have for many years been separate political organisations, don't you?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I know that. I also know that at times the ANC doesn't want the existence of other political organisations.

MR BERGER: Not only ANC and PAC, but also IFP supporters were living in Boipatong at the time of the attack, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: It is also correct, is it not, that you were involved in a shooting incident at your parents' house, you shot at your parents' house?

MR TSHABANGU: As you can see me shaking my head, or smiling, it doesn't mean that I want to laugh, but I am trying to respond to you. With respect, what you are saying in this moment, it is not the first time for me to hear this. I know that some people have said that I did shoot at our house. How can I shoot with two rifles, a AK3 and a Macaroff, directing the shooting towards my home.

I will say they were lying, that is not true.

MR BERGER: And the house was not burnt down - after you left, the house was demolished so that you could not return to the township, isn't that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know. I last know that the house was burnt down.

MR BERGER: Do you recall a meeting three weeks before the attack on Boipatong, at the stadium where people were complaining about what was happening at KwaMadala and where people were asking to attack Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I remember the meetings where people requested or put this request, and I am not denying that. Whether it was about two or three weeks or one, I can't be able to say yes or no.

CHAIRPERSON: We were told that prior to the attack in Boipatong, just shortly before the attack, there were at least two meetings. The first meeting was a meeting where the residents of KwaMadala hostel complained to the leadership about the attacks. Do you recall that meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember specifically the meeting where the people complained, I am not sure whether that was the first or the second meeting, but I remember people complaining in one of these meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: At the other meeting, we were told people were given instructions to be ready for an attack. Do you remember that meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: That meeting was on the 10th of June 1992, a week before the attack.

MR TSHABANGU: Must I comment?

MR BERGER: The meeting that you are referring to, is that the meeting that was held on the 10th of June?

MR TSHABANGU: Sir, I won't be able to mention a specific date. My date reference is not that good because this happened about six years ago and I am trying by all means not to tell you lies. I can't remember.

MR BERGER: On the 22nd of January of this year, you said the following under oath: You said an instruction was given by leaders of the IFP living at the KwaMadala hostel on approximately the 10th and the 17th of June 1992, that Boipatong must be attacked.

You can have a look at page 167 for that.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I have said it.

MR BERGER: Now that I have refreshed your memory, what instruction was given on the 10th of June 1992?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, in all fairness to the witness, I just want to refer to the word "ongeveer", which means more or less the 10th. So it is not as it is, exactly on the 10th.

MR BERGER: I will put the question again, do you confirm that on approximately the 10th of June 1992, an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked?

MR TSHABANGU: May you please repeat the question sir.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, do you confirm what you stated under oath, that on approximately the 10th of June 1992 an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who gave that instruction?

MR TSHABANGU: I can't remember exactly who was speaking at the meeting, it is anyone between Mkhize and Qonqo.

MR BERGER: Why was the attack not carried out immediately and why did you wait for a week before carrying out the attack, approximately a week before carrying out the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know. It should be understood that I wasn't involved in the planning and I wasn't part of the leadership. There were things which I didn't know and I don't know why it took a week before it could happen.

MR BERGER: Am I correct then if I understand your evidence to be as follows: Some time before the 10th, you don't know precisely when, the residents of KwaMadala complained to the leaders of KwaMadala that they wished to attack the residents of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I personally am saying that residents of KwaMadala hostel complained about the killings directed to them and their relatives in one of those two meetings.

MR BERGER: You see, we have heard from Mr Khanyile that at this first meeting, when the residents wanted to attack, the leader said leave it with us, we will think about it.

Do you confirm that?

MR TSHABANGU: What was said by Khanyile, it is what he said. I won't like to follow what he said or agree, not specifically what Khanyile said, but I will say what I know because if I were to do it in that fashion, I will end up telling the Committee and the community of Boipatong a lie.

I will say what I remember, the way I remember it, therefore I can't confirm or deny what Khanyile said.

MR BERGER: What you can confirm is that thereafter the leaders came, round about the 10th of June and said we are now going to attack Boipatong, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: If you are referring to the 17th, yes.

MR BERGER: No Mr Tshabangu, you have already agreed that on the 10th an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked and you told the Committee you did not know why it took from the 10th to the 17th before the attack was launched. Do you stand by that?

MR TSHABANGU: I am standing in these words. I am saying I don't know the exact date, whether it was the 10th or any other date, that is my words.

Further, that in one of the two meetings this was mentioned, but things occurred on the 17th.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I see that it is five o'clock. I am not finished with this point. I don't know if you would want to adjourn?

Mr Tshabangu, in your application, you say that approximately a week apart, approximately a week before the attack, an instruction was given that Boipatong should be attacked. Do you now dispute that?

CHAIRPERSON: He is just referring specifically to the aspect of his affidavit where he says that.

MR BERGER: I am referring to paragraph 11(b) on page 167 Chairperson.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, we have canvassed this thing backwards and forwards. You have his evidence already on record, if he is going to change it, well, so be it, but let's not waste time on it.

I agree with you that he very distinctly said he didn't understand why it took a week for them to carry out the operation, he wasn't involved in the planning. That was his evidence, let's move on.

MR BERGER: I will Mr Lax, thank you. Was there not another meeting on Sunday the 14th of June where the attack on Boipatong was discussed?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: This was a meeting addressed by Mr Themba Khosa?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know anything about that. Where Themba Khosa was addressing people about the attack planned at Boipatong, I don't know anything about that.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps this will be an appropriate point to take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

13-08-1998: Day 3

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, we'd like to thank you for the helpful memorandum which you have furnished us with. We do hope that it will help to expedite matters.

Mr Tshabangu?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, before Mr Tshabangu continues, could the memorandum be marked Exhibit O please.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, the memorandum submitted on behalf of the victims, which is dated the 8th of August, will then be handed in as Exhibit O. By the way, I beg your pardon, you don't have any - do you have any objections to the memorandum handed in?

MR PRETORIUS: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MS CAMBANIS: No Chairperson.

MR STRYDOM: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Prior ...(indistinct)

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed, as I understand the papers of the memo, it is merely to outline the case of the victims and to indicate as far as practical where areas of dispute lie.

MR PRIOR: I've said that, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Until such time that there is agreement on the contents of the memo, it can , you know those admitted matters may then acquire the status of the evidence. Am I right in that understanding Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Yes Chairperson, the - I'm sorry, if I could also just place on record, the purpose of this memorandum, as you've correctly pointed out Chairperson, is to reduce areas of dispute between the victims and the applicants. We hope that our learned friends for the applicants, after having gone through the memorandum, will be in a position to indicate which paragraphs are admitted and which are disputed. Those which are disputed we will then be leading evidence on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu have I reminded you that you're under oath? I'm now reminding you that you are under oath.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: (s.u.o.)

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson before my learned friend continues, I just want to place on record that four of the applicants are not here yet. The four are the people that are in custody. Apparently two of them had to appear in some criminal court this morning. I was informed about that yesterday, but they said they'll come here in any event. So, but I don't know what went wrong, but apparently they are on their way and I've objection if we continue in the meantime without them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes ...(indistinct). Yes Mr Berger?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (continued) Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu there is a matter that I must clear up with you. Mr Miga came to me yesterday after the hearings and again this morning, and he was perturbed that what I had in fact put to you might not, might have been not as I had been instructed, and he wants me to correct that. You will remember yesterday I put to you that at your hearing you and Getisi Victor Gerswa threatened to assault Mr Miga, do you remember that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Miga says I overstated the position, and the position is as follows: actual hearing and in a corridor outside the court. Mr Miga was walking along and you and Victor Gerswa and others came in his direction and you blocked his way, and he says that he felt threatened and intimidated by your actions, not to say that you verbally threatened to assault him. Do you have any comment on that?

MR TSHABANGU: That didn't happen.

MR BERGER: You also state in your affidavit that bodies of IFP members which had been buried were dug up and burned, are you referring to an incident in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: You also state in your affidavit that prior to the attack, a month before the attack on Boipatong, there was a march on kwaMadala by ANC supporters. Are you not mistaken, and that the true position is that on the 18th of June 1992, after the attack on Boipatong, the residents of Boipatong marched towards kwaMadala Hostel, but they were stopped and turned back?

MR TSHABANGU: Before the 17th of June 1992 the ANC, that is the ANC at Boipatong, marched to kwaMadala threatening that we should be evicted and the hostel should be demolished. And these were the utterances of the ANC itself that the hostels should be demolished at the time.

MR BERGER: You spoke yesterday in your evidence about an incident in Sharpeville where you were surrounded and accused of being a police informer. It was at a time when you were with Mr Mbatha. Do you remember that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And it's your evidence that the people who confronted you specifically said that Mr Mbatha could go and that they weren't interested in him, but they were interested in you. Is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: No that Mbatha alone, they also released other people with whom we were walking, and they confronted me, but it was only one of those people.

MR BERGER: When was that?

MR TSHABANGU: ...(inaudible) I think it was somewhere around 1990/'92 - early in 1992.

MR BERGER: They said to you and this whole group that you were in, including Mr Mbatha, "here are the Zulus", but then let everyone go except you.

MR TSHABANGU: After they were manhandled and assaulted, they were released and they came to me.

MR BERGER: It was your evidence yesterday that this group of people who confronted you said Bongane Mbatha should go, "they surrounded me but I managed to escape". Wasn't it your evidence yesterday that you were the specific target of this group of people?

MR TSHABANGU: I did say something like that yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: The persons that were released, were they only released after they had been assaulted?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How were they assaulted?

MR TSHABANGU: They were manhandled, kicked and beaten with bottles.

CHAIRPERSON: And beaten with bottles?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, bottles.

CHAIRPERSON: Broken bottles?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't know because it was in front of the tavern, at the gate of the tavern, but I do not remember whether the bottles were broken or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Roughly how long did this assault on these persons last?

MR TSHABANGU: It happened so quickly, it may have been one or two minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: And how people were in this group?

MR TSHABANGU: The ones who were attacking us?

CHAIRPERSON: I mean those who were being attacked.

MR TSHABANGU: Are you referring to the people in my company - I'm speaking under correction, there may have been four or six.

CHAIRPERSON: And those who were attacking you, how many were they?

MR TSHABANGU: They may have been seventeen.

MR BERGER: And this took place in Sharpeville?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: You also mentioned yesterday that you never complained to anybody in a leadership position in the hostel about the things that were happening to you, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I also said that at the meeting that was held at the stadium I was actually one of the people who were complaining about our being killed. I am explaining here I never went to a specific leader and complained to him, but yes, I was one of the people who spoke at the meeting at the stadium.

MR BERGER: This is the meeting three weeks before the attack, or the meeting one week before the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: I do not remember which meeting it was exactly.

MR BERGER: You attended a number of meetings, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: At your criminal trial you told the court that after your arrival at kwaMadala you and Mr Moses Mthembu sat down and had a discussion about your position. You discussed your residence at kwaMadala, and the fact that you were still a member of the police, do you remember that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was that evidence true and correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you also discussed your suspension from the Police Force, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: And you discussed that even though you had been suspended from the police you would not be allowed to attend any meetings held in the hostel.

MR TSHABANGU: I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: Well let me read to you what you said. Chairperson it's at page 3574 of the record. You were accused no 74 were you not?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we have the record? Oh reading from the judgment.

MR BERGER: Judgment yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see, I beg your pardon.

MR PRIOR: The evidence at the trial, of the accused's evidence when he testified, not from the judgment. Mr Chairman, when the bundle was prepared, I understand only the judgment was put up and not the thousands of pages of the record.

MR BERGER: That's correct, but I'll read the relevant portion into the record anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just give me the page.

MR BERGER: It's page 3574 Chairperson.

Starting at line 17 - well if I can just a little bit higher, you were asked whether - you said that in the beginning of 1991 you went to go and stay in the hostel, and you said that in the hostel, it was you, your mother and your two younger brothers. Do you remember that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: You were then asked,

"Was u op daardie stadium nog 'n lid van die Mag gewees?"

You said yes, you were still a member of the Force.

You were asked:

"Where you in full-time service or were you ..."

the Afrikaans word is "geskors".

" ... and I understand that to be suspended"

You said:

"Ek was geskors"

Is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember whether I said that. It might as well be that you are correct I said that, and I may not deny it as well, even though I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Tshabangu, the purpose of this exercise is just to remind you that this is what you said. So all that counsel wants to find out, is whether - did you in fact say what appears at page 3574 of the record.

MR TSHABANGU: I do understand.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu just to assist you, you can accept that what is here is in fact a recording of what you said, this is part of the appeal record for purposes of your appeal to the Supreme Court of Appeal in Bloemfontein.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I accept that.

MR BERGER: Now at line 17 you were asked:

"Met u aankoms daar by die hostel, het u enige reëlings met beskuldigde 73 ...",

that's Mr Moses Mthembu.

"... getref betreffende oor vergaderings en diesmeer wat daar in die hostel gehou word?"

Your answer was:

"Na my aankoms daar het ek en meneer Moses Mthembu, beskuldigde 73, gaan sit en ons het gesels oor myself. Ons het ook gesels oor my verblyf daar, en ook die feit dat ek nog 'n lid is van die Polisie. Al is ek geskors mag ek nie enige vergaderings bywoon wat daar gehou mag word nie. Ek kan net noem dat hy het daarop aangedring dat sonder enige rede om die vergadering by te woon nie."

I - that is as it's been typed, and I think there's a word or two out there. What you were saying is, Mr Moses Mthembu said to you, even though you are suspended, you are still a member of the Force and for no reason are you allowed to attend meetings in the hostel.

MR TSHABANGU: It was myself who indicated that I am not supposed to attend meetings, it was not Mthembu who suggested that I should not attend meetings. Yes, I concur with what you've just read.

MR BERGER: And why were you not supposed to attend meetings?

MR TSHABANGU: That was a policy that was used by the Police Force at the time.

MR BERGER: Because you were still regarded as a member of the South African Police?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You still had your official firearm issued by the police, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: Even though you were not supposed to attend meetings you did in fact attend meetings, did you not?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Why did you complain to Mr Mkhize in the stadium at either the meeting three weeks before or the meeting one week before about what was happening, why did you choose Mkhize?

MR TSHABANGU: I was confined, I was not used to living under such conditions, it was difficult. Things that were happening to me and other people with whom I was staying there, these things happened over and over and over, and these things registered in my heart. And I realised that it was about time I became one of them by all means, that is why I was attending the meetings.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu proceedings would go a lot faster if you listened to my question and answered my question. My question was not why did you complain, my question was why did you choose Mkhize to complain to.

MR TSHABANGU: He was the one chairing the meeting, in other words, he was playing a leadership role at the time, he was with Damarra.

MR BERGER: And what leadership role was he playing, what position did he occupy at that time in the hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: Insofar as structures are concerned, I was not clear as to who was occupying what position. I only saw people in leadership roles, I did not question as to who occupying what position. But the fact is that Mkhize was one of the leaders, himself and Damarra at the Madala hostel at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Accepting that probably at the time when you arrived at the hostel, you may not have known what positions Mkhize and Damarra had, did you subsequently establish what their positions were?

MR TSHABANGU: No I had not established that when I left, I didn't know. I just saw the leaders, I knew them as leaders because they were always taking the front seat when meetings were held where people were addressed, and I didn't know who was Chairman of what commission. I subsequently left the place not knowing who was occupying what position.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize says in his amnesty application that he was the leader of the Amabuto, which he classifies as a specific structure within the kwaMadala Hostel. Now surely you would have heard about this?

MR TSHABANGU: I do not deny that, I do not accept it either. What I know is that Mkhize was a leader. Whether he was a leader of Amabuto or not, I don't know. Yes, I agree that he was one of the leaders.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu you come across as a highly intelligent man. Are you telling the Committee that you lived with the men of kwaMadala for more than a year and you did not know what Mr Mkhize's position within the hostel was?

MR TSHABANGU: With all due respect Adv Berger, believe it or not, yes, that's how it is.

MR BERGER: Well let me ask you about Mr Damarra Chonco. Mr Victor Mthembu, himself a leader within the hostel says at page 5, paragraph 6, that Damarra Chonco was the leader of the hit-squads from Umsinge. He was the leader of the hit-squad in the kwaMadala Hostel as well. Did you know that?

MR TSHABANGU: No, I was not aware of the hit-squads existing at the hostel, the hit-squads themselves having come from Umsinge. I had no knowledge of this.

MR BERGER: The ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Give ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Chairperson it's - no, no I'm not going onto a new point yet, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: Given the circumstances under which the residents of the kwaMadala Hostel were living, that of constant fear of being attacked, they could not go out without risking their lives, we understand that there were women and there were probably children also within the hostel. To your knowledge, were their any steps taken to provide protection to the residents of the hostel? Was there a committee or a group of men - or a group of persons who were in charge of security to ensure the safety of the residents?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know about the people who were in charge as far as safety was concerned at the hostel. I know that there were measures that were taken at times so that they could acquire things that will be used for our protection.

MR LAX: Could I just follow up on that, you said you knew there were measures taken to acquire things for your protection. Who organised the acquiring of those things, as far as you could see?

MR TSHABANGU: We will be called to a meeting by Damarra Chonco and they will tell us that we need to collect some money so we could purchase some firearms. They will be the one address us more often than not.

MR LAX: Who would you give the money to?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't quite remember as to who we will be giving the money to. In actual fact I would not give any money because I wasn't employed, but most of the people who used to contribute were the ones who were employed.

MR LAX: Thanks Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.

Who was in control of weapons at kwaMadala Hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know.

MR BERGER: The reason you don't know Mr Tshabangu is because you know that Mr Vanana Zulu was in control of weapons at kwaMadala Hostel, isn't that right?

MR TSHABANGU: It is not so, I came here to ask for amnesty against my heart and in a position of wanting to reconcile with my people. There is no reason why I should implicate other people. It is my life and I'm the one suffering. I have no reason also to protect other people, including Vanana Zulu. I have no reason whatsoever to protect him.

MR BERGER: Except fear?

MR TSHABANGU: I have no fear. If I fear something I will report that to the police. I will lay my story to the police.

MR BERGER: Vanana Zulu has been present every day of these hearings. Isn't it because he was the leader of kwaMadala Hostel, and he's come here to make sure that he is not exposed. Isn't that what's happening?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes he's a controller at kwaMadala Hostel, as well as Vaal Triangle at large. I don't know whether he's here to make sure that, or to ensure that he doesn't get exposed, but one thing for sure, as far as I am concerned I will never protect him.

CHAIRPERSON: See, Mr Berger quite frankly you will recall that the last time we were here, Mr Vanana Zulu was implicated and I made him to stand up and enquired of him whether he wishes to be legally represented, and I also advised him that he has to be here, and that's why he's here. Do you think it's a fair question?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I have no doubt that Mr Vanana Zulu has a right to be here.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just looking at - because you're putting it as a fact that that's the reason why, that's not a fair question.

MR BERGER: Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And that he has all the right to be here.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, Vanana Zulu sits with the applicants; he associates with the applicants during the adjournments; he is always in the company of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, so what? He is here because he has been advised that he must be here if he wishes to be here. And he is legally represented as I understand the position, by Mr Strydom.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I take the ruling.

Mr Tshabangu, you say that Mr Vanana Zulu was not only the leader of kwaMadala Hostel, he was also the leader of the entire Vaal, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: When you're referring to 1992 backwards, he was a leader at kwaMadala Hostel. After the situation got stable, especially after the elections, when there was stability, he became a leader of Vaal. That's what I'm trying to explain.

MR BERGER: So what you're saying is that at the time of the attack Mr Vanana Zulu was the leader only of kwaMadala Hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: According to my knowledge it is like that.

MR BERGER: Now Mr Mthembu says that Vanana Zulu was in control of the weapons; that he hid them at kwaMadala Hostel; that he handed them out, and that he was the person who told the residents that they had to contribute money for the purchase of guns. Do you confirm that?

MR TSHABANGU: I do not confirm that. What was uttered by Victor Mthembu has been uttered by him. I stand firm on my words by saying he was a leader. I don't know him to be controlling the weapons. I bear no knowledge in as far as controlling the weapons is concerned. Those are my words and I stand by them.

MR BERGER: You also say that you have no knowledge of the fact that there were 40 to 50 men from Umsinge who had to be maintained by the residents of kwaMadala Hostel, and that the residents were afraid of these men from Umsinge.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I bear no knowledge.

MR BERGER: You also bear no knowledge of any self-protection units set up to defend the residents of kwaMadala Hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: There was no self-protection unit. Every person who was a resident there, it was his entire responsibility to protect the hostel. So it was everyone's responsibility to protect the hostel.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that all the residents of the hostel were divided up into small units?

MR TSHABANGU: That I don't know.

MR BERGER: For a person, Mr Tshabangu, who claimed to be so concerned about safety, your safety and the safety of other people at kwaMadala, I put it to you that you display an amazing level of ignorance regarding the structures which had been put in place to defend kwaMadala, and to launch attacks from kwaMadala.

MR TSHABANGU: I stand firm by my words that I was not aware at any stage about the protection unit - the groups of protection unit, and the people around 40 in number from Umsinge who were feared by people, that we used to contribute towards their maintenance. If somebody else takes this as if I should be knowing everything and all the activities that were going on at the hostel, I think a person will be highly mistaken if he takes me to be that kind of a person. As a police, people will not come near and closer to me because they were always suspicious. So I wouldn't be too close to the people, that's how I got to be ignorant.

MR BERGER: I will just ask one more question on this point and then move on Mr Tshabangu, you say that the people at kwaMadala also didn't like you because you were a policeman, but be that as it may, you nevertheless attended many meetings where these things must have been discussed?

MR TSHABANGU: I did not say they did not like me as such, what I'm saying is that people were suspicious. People get to be suspicious when you are a police and in a battle position. They will always think you are coming to be an informer, especially when it comes to political matters, people will highly suspect a police as an informer, but I will definitely attend their meetings.

MR BERGER: And yet on approximately the 10th of June you were one of the people who was most vocal about the need to do something about the situation, and as a result a decision was taken - or in fact an order was given, in your presence, that Boipatong was to be attacked.

MR TSHABANGU: I did say that. It was not necessarily said that we shall attack Boipatong and that Boipatong was a target.

MR BERGER: I'll leave that contradiction alone Mr Tshabangu. On the 14th of June 1992 there was another meeting in the hostel. That meeting was addressed by Themba Xhosa and a man called Dlamini. You say you no knowledge of that meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you have any knowledge of this man Mr Dlamini?

MR TSHABANGU: What is his first name? I will answer you as soon as you furnish me with that information.

MR BERGER: His first name is Mr, and he was sent by a minister in the kwaZulu Government.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger do you know the first name of Mr Dlamini, or don't you know it?

MR BERGER: I just know him as Mr, and to try and assist you, he was sent by a minister in the kwaZulu Government to come and look after the interests of IFP members in the Vaal.

MR TSHABANGU: There are a number of Mr Dlamini's that I know of. When I requested you to furnish me with his first name, I'm not trying to make it difficult for you to question me, but I'm trying to make it easier for me in order to respond right. It may happen that I will be referring to this kind of Mr Dlamini and yet you are talking about a different Mr Dlamini, so please furnish me with his first name so I answer you correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu he doesn't know the first name of Mr Dlamini. We understand you know a number of Mr Dlamini's, is that right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, that's right.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, you were present when Mr Victor Mthembu gave evidence, and you will recall that I questioned him about this Mr Dlamini, and you will recall that he confirmed the existence of this Mr Dlamini, and spoke about this Mr Dlamini.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I do remember, but I don't quite remember as to which Dlamini. If you may tell me about his job-description, maybe I would be in a position to recall the details and be in a position to answer you correctly.

MR BERGER: Very well, I'll do that. Just bear with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu do you know of any meeting that was addressed by Mr Themba Xhosa and a Mr Dlamini?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Thank you, I now have it. Mr Mthembu was asked:

"You state that you were present at the general meeting held in the hostel approximately a week before the attack", and he's asked certain questions.

And then in question 20.4 he's asked:

"Who is Dlamini, who you allege was present during this meeting, and what is his position in the IFP?"

And then at page 31 Mr Mthembu says:

"He is an honourable man who was sent by a minister of the IFP from Durban to look after the members of the IFP in the Vaal Triangle as a whole."

I can tell you further that at page 8 of his affidavit Mr Mthembu talks about Dlamini being accompanied by a member of the kwaZulu Police, a person by the name of Ngabelo, who he says was his bodyguard. Dlamini at the meeting said, "that the problem of our people who were being killed must be reported to Buthelezi". And you'll remember I asked Mr Mthembu which Buthelezi, and it was established that it's Chief Mangusotho Buthelezi. Now having told you all of that, are you now able to identify who the Mr Dlamini is?

MR TSHABANGU: It becomes clear to me that Mr Dlamini was a representative of the kwaZulu Government in Vereeniging. I'm not aware of any meeting on which he addressed together with Themba Xhosa.

MR BERGER: Where were you on the Sunday before the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't want to lie, I don't remember. I don't remember because I used to come in and out going out to buy some stock.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, I'm putting it to you that the reason you don't remember the meeting is because it was at this meeting where the attack on Boipatong was discussed - the forthcoming attack.

MR TSHABANGU: It's not correct, as I've already agreed or accepted, that I was at - I'm sorry ...

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) that on the 14th of June 1992, the attack on Boipatong was discussed?

MR BERGER: Yes, that is what I'm putting to the witness.

MR TSHABANGU: It's not true that I'm denying or hiding something. I don't remember being in a meeting which was addressed by Dlamini and Themba Xhosa, and I don't know why I should try to hide anything about it.

MR BERGER: Chairperson I'm also putting to the witness that this was one of the meetings where the plans to attack Boipatong were finalized.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) a fact to the witness, we've got to record that accurately, so that we can hear evidence to that effect at a later stage so that there can be no misunderstanding as to what you put to the witness. So you're saying the plans to attack Boipatong were finalized at this meeting?

MR BERGER: No, I'm not saying that.

I'm putting to you Mr Tshabangu - let me tell you why I'm putting it to you, ...(intervention)

MS SIGODI: Mr Berger, my recording is that you put to the witness that this meeting - this is the meeting where the plans of attacking Boipatong were finalized, did I get it correctly?

MR BERGER: I said it was one of the meetings. Before that I said this was a meeting at which the attack on Boipatong was discussed, the forthcoming attack on Boipatong was discussed. Because ...

MS SIGODI: It's one of the meetings.

MR BERGER: Advocate Sigodi, I've tried to develop a theme of on the 10th, the 14th and the 17th.

MS SIGODI: Record what you are putting to the witness correctly.

MR STRYDOM: Just to get clarity, I just want to know if Mr Berger is putting this as a proposition or as a fact that he has evidence to that effect.

MR BERGER: Chairperson I'm putting it as proposition. Chairperson can I just state my position?

CHAIRPERSON: We understand your - don't worry about that, we understand. All we want to establish is when you put a proposition to the witness which is a matter of argument, that's different from telling the witness that at this meeting this is what happened, putting that as a fact. Because if you're stating it as a fact, one then expects that there will be evidence to the effect that at that meeting this is what happened. But when you're stating it as a proposition you want to argue later on, that having regard to the build up of the circumstances leading up to Boipatong, it is very probably that at that meeting of the 14th of June plans to attack Boipatong were discussed or finalized, as a probability.

MR BERGER: Well it goes ...

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the applicants and every one of us to know what to expect. Do you understand what I'm trying to explain to you?

MR BERGER: Chairperson I understand it perfectly, but Chairperson when one cross-examines ...

CHAIRPERSON: If you put a proposition, do you understand the difference between a proposition and a fact that you're putting to the witness. That's all we're trying to say, that if you're putting a fact, let us know, if it's a proposition let us know. Because then ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: But Chairperson in cross-examination one doesn't have to do that. With respect one only has to put to the witness, "I put it to you" this and this and this; the witness comments on that, and then at the end of the day I can argue because the witness has had an opportunity to comment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu we've heard evidence that there's a meeting that took place on the 14th of June 1992 shortly before the attack. That meeting was addressed by, amongst other persons, Mr Themba Xhosa we were told. Also present at that meeting was a Mr Dlamini. The first question is, do you recall that meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Part of the reasons why you don't recall this meeting is because at this meeting one of the things that occurred was that the plans to attack Boipatong were discussed or finalized, and you're concealing that fact.

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir, it's not like that, I don't know of that meeting, and I'm not in a position to hide anything. The meeting of the 14th, it's unknown to me. I'm not saying there was no such a meeting, but I wasn't present, and I don't know anything about such meeting.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, you told the Committee yesterday that you could not explain why there was a delay of approximately a week between the 10th and the 17th before Boipatong was attacked.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now the facts that I have at my disposal are of necessity gleaned from what you and your fellow applicants say happened at kwaMadala, and bearing in mind what you've said about the delay, Mr Victor Mthembu says that at this meeting of the 14th Themba Xhosa was angry at the killing of his people, and he said if the people come and attack you, you are supposed to fight back and kill them. Now Mr Victor Mthembu says that is a fact. What I'm putting to you from that fact and your evidence about the delay, is that the plans to attack Boipatong must have been discussed at this meeting on the 14th, that you know about that, and that you are concealing it because you do not want to implicate Themba Xhosa.

MR TSHABANGU: That is not true. It's not the way you put it. There is no reason why I shall try to protect Themba Xhosa or any other person. If these people put my life in danger - my life is in danger in this present moment, and I'm here to ask for amnesty. I will not put my life into danger to protect other people or to please other people. I stand by my words as I've stated, I don't have any knowledge of the meeting where these things were discussed, and I'm not denying that there was such a meeting, however I'm saying no, I was not present in such a meeting.

MR BERGER: You see the reason I'm putting these things to you is because by the time the night of the 17th came you knew, I put it to you, that when people were being called to the stadium, you knew now it's the time for the attack. To the extent that people went to the stadium already armed with their spears, assegais and so on.

MR TSHABANGU: I will try to correct your statement. On the 17th when we were called to the stadium most of us were not armed. We were to be sent back to go and arm ourselves from the houses. The reason for them sending us back is because we went there unarmed. You couldn't go to such a meeting unarmed if you knew that we were going to fight, therefore I would say you are making a mistake.

MR BERGER: I put this to you, is because if one has a look at Exhibit G, it's the statement of Moosa Tokosane Dlamini, and he says the following:

"On Wednesday the 17th of June 1992 I was in my room at no 9 kwaMadala Hostel. We were four men in the room. I heard a Zulu trumpet outside, I went out of my room, I saw that people were gathering in the inner square of the hostel. I went to the group of people ...",

and this is the important part, he says:

"... Before I went out of my room I armed myself with the traditional shield, knobkierrie and a stick. When I came to the group of people, or when I joined them, I heard the Induna of the young men in the hostel speaking with the group. His name is Mkhize ...",

and again this is the important part:

"... All the people in the group were armed with kierries, sticks and some had assegais. Mkhize said that we were going to Tletlela, this is our name for Boipatong, to fight."

And he then says that you moved out to Boipatong. The point I'm making is that in his statement he says that by the time the men gathered they were already armed. Do you understand what I'm putting to you?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I understand that, but I don't agree with that statement because when you look at the statement of state witness Bujose in the trial case of Boipatong, it says that we were turned back to go and arm ourselves because we were not armed in the beginning, and that is a fact, that's how it happened and I stand by my words that we went to the stadium unarmed.

MR BERGER: Do you accept the evidence of the state witness Bujose in all respects?

MR TSHABANGU: If you are to refer to Moosa's statement I shall think we should also use Majose's statement, and it's not only Majose who was saying that, that we went to the stadium unarmed and we were sent back. If the others still remember well they would come and confirm that that's what happened.

MR BERGER: My question to you is, do you accept all the evidence of the state witness Mr Bujose?

MR TSHABANGU: With reference to the part where it was said that we went to the stadium armed and we were turned back, I do agree or accept his evidence, but I'm not accepting the whole of his evidence. Your Honour I would like to make you understand that people like Moosa, they were ill-treated or assaulted before they give the statements, therefore they didn't give them freely and voluntarily, they were forced to make statements. When they were coming out of prison they were shocked and assaulted, I think by the police who were investigating their cases.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you shared a room with Teresa Mofoking?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that you shared a room with Timothy Mazibuko?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: At the trial Timothy Mazibuko denied that Teresa Mofoking shared a room with the two of you. That denial was false, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that after the attack, that Timothy Mazibuko returned to the hostel with a duvet which was full of blood, and that he washed that duvet the following morning?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: You shared the same room, didn't you see that bloody duvet that night or the following morning, and see Timothy Mazibuko washing it?

MR TSHABANGU: I didn't see him.

MR BERGER: Did you see Timothy Mazibuko when he came back after the attack, and if so, when was that?

MR TSHABANGU: I saw him in the room where we were staying.

MR BERGER: Was this on the night immediately after the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you spoke to him the following morning, the morning of the 18th?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: You saw him in your room when you woke up that morning, the 18th?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: At the trial Mr Bujose gave evidence that you were in possession of a pump-gun, and that you shot at people in the vicinity of Cape Gate.

MR TSHABANGU: Majose was lying, I wasn't armed with a pump-gun. I didn't even reach the Cape Gate point. He was lying, no such a thing happened.

MR BERGER: So in some respects Bujose was lying, in other respects he was telling the truth?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: ...(inaudible) said that you came to get weapons and "lappies" from the room. Is that a lie or is that the truth?

MR TSHABANGU: It's correct to say that I came to collect a knobkierrie and a lap, and I went out.

MR BERGER: So she was telling the truth in that regard?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: She also said that on the 18th of June you and accused no 60, who was Timothy Stals Mazibuko, were having a conversation about a television set which you had carried to the fire during the burning of goods and evidence in kwaMadala. Was she telling the truth or was she telling a lie?

MR TSHABANGU: She's lying. As I'm saying to you that I don't remember seeing Timothy Mazibuko ...(indistinct) in the morning. I know that he normally wakes up in the morning and goes to his places in the morning, or I will wake up earlier than him and go somewhere before he wakes up. We are staying in rooms which are like a hall where you can see that they are divided. If refers to the TV, I last saw him throwing away the TV on the road after we just crossed a bridge, that's where he dropped the TV. I didn't see any duvet with blood, or I didn't take any TV on the following day and throw it on the fire.

MR BERGER: Are you aware of the fire the following day where goods stolen from Boipatong and evidence linking the residents of Boipatong to the attack was burned?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Were you at the meeting addressed by Themba Xhosa on the day following the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Humphrey Ndlovu was also at that meeting, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And at that meeting Themba Xhosa give the instruction that all evidence linked to the massacre, including goods stolen from the hostel, clothes stained with blood, should be burned?

MR TSHABANGU: I was in the meeting in which Themba Xhosa arrived with a certain Brigadier or a General. I don't remember the name of that General or Brigadier. He came together with Themba Xhosa and Themba said that we must co-operate with the police because they wanted to ask us some questions. He never said that he shall take all the goods that you confiscated at Boipatong and burned them. And further, the police were already inside kwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: You were asked this question by the evidence leader of the TRC in a request for further particulars, it's paragraph 5.2 on page 170. In question 5 you were asked whether Themba Xhosa and Humphrey Ndlovu visited after the attack, you said yes.

5.1 you were asked for particulars of the nature of the visit, you gave an answer.

5.2 you were asked about Themba Xhosa giving this instruction to burn, you never answered that question. Why not?

MR TSHABANGU: You are referring to 5.2, I can't see it. I can only see 5 and 5.1 where I stated they came after the police have closed the whole stadium and asked us to co-operate with them. I can't see 5.2 on the forms.

MR BERGER: ...(inaudible) why you never answered question 5.2. If you have a look at page 170 you will see question 5.2, and I see that you understand English.

MR TSHABANGU: Give me some time, I will just have to check the 5.2 you are talking about. Maybe not to waste time Sir ... In 5.2 there is a question stated as he's reading it out ... "and all evidence that linked the attackers to the massacre, including goods stolen from the hostel and clothes stained with blood." Is that the question?

MR BERGER: Yes Mr Tshabangu.

MR TSHABANGU: No goods were stolen from the hostel and Themba Xhosa never stated that people should burn the goods. That's my answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger are you still pursuing this point or are you going to another point?

MR BERGER: I just want to check something in the bundle Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman with respect, and I don't want to steal my learned friend's thunder, if there's such a thing, but it seems that all the other applicants have dealt with that question 5.2 relating to the burning of goods. It's in respect of this applicant that there doesn't seem to be a reply prepared in the further particulars. So I think my learned friend is - whether he's suggesting that he deliberately avoided answering that question, or there may be some other explanation why that question wasn't prepared in his further particulars. But I submit it doesn't take the matter any further.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson I was the draughtsman of this, and I cannot really remember if I just forgot to add that, or because we saw that the word "hostel" was there, and we deliberately decided not to answer that question, I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: Chairperson my point is that the question was framed exactly the same way for all of the other applicants, and they all managed to answer the question. It was framed in exactly the same way to Mr Victor Mthembu, and he answered "yes". It was framed in the same way to another applicant, and he also answered "yes", an applicant represented by my learned friend.

CHAIRPERSON: But we're concerned about this applicant, that's the applicant we're dealing with here.

MR BERGER: The applicant I'm referring to is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi who was also represented by my learned friend. At page 136 he was asked the same question, and the word "hostel" is there. The point I'm making Chairperson is that it's quite clear, and was quite clear to my learned friend, what this question is about. And all I'm asking the witness is for an explanation as to why the question wasn't answered.

MR STRYDOM: My learned friend suggests that I gave the answers. I read the questions to them and I got the answers from the applicants.

MR BERGER: I'm not suggesting that my learned friend supplied the answers.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just get into any - let's just proceed. Put the question you want to put to the witness and let's proceed. Put the question to the witness that you want to put.

MR BERGER: Chairperson I don't understand why there's irritation with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Put your question to the witness so that we can get on. Put the question to - you know, because Mr Strydom is saying he was the one who read these things to the witness, to the applicants, he doesn't know why he - whether he omitted it because there was a wrong reference or not. The only person who will be able to tell us, if he knows, is the applicant, and then perhaps we can move, because if Mr Strydom doesn't, you know, is not able to tell us what is the reason for that omission.

MR BERGER: Chairperson can I please just have a moment to confer with my colleagues?

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a tea adjournment, we will come back at about ...(inaudible).

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: May I remind you that you're still under oath, and for us to make progress at these hearings, would you please answer the question directly. Do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: If the answer that's being called is a "yes" or "no", just give that answer. Your counsel is here, if there's anything that he believes you have to explain, he will be given the opportunity to have you explain that. Do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu you know that goods were not stolen from the hostel, in fact goods were stolen from Boipatong, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: My question to you was, why did you not answer question 5.2 on page 170? Please can you answer that question directly.

MR TSHABANGU: I can't see it on the papers.

MR BERGER: It's on page 170, paragraph 5.2.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Tshabangu that's the question you read out to us yourself earlier, so we're not messing around here, just let's get to the answer please.

MR TSHABANGU: The only 5.2 that I can see, it's a question where I was supposed to provide an answer that doesn't appear on the papers. But if you're talking about things which were stolen in the hostel, I would say Themba Xhosa never gave instructions what the hostel-dwellers should do.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) speakers are making a noise, so I can't hear. I just want to hear what you are saying.

MR TSHABANGU: The only 5.2 available is the one where there are question where I had to give an answer. Presently I can answer 5.2 in this way, if you're referring to things - goods stolen at Boipatong, my answer will be no.

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel understands that that's your answer today, what counsel wants to find out is, and you've just said so yourself, that there is - you did - there is no response from you to question 5.2, right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What counsel wants to find out from you is, when you look at page 173 of your answers to that request for further particulars, do you see that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There is no response from you to that question. Now why is that so, why did you not respond to that question?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know why.

MR BERGER: The reason I'm suggesting to you Mr Tshabangu, why you didn't answer that question, is again, you don't want to say anything which will implicate Themba Xhosa.

MR TSHABANGU: It's not correct.

MR BERGER: Let's move to the meeting in the hostel on the 17th of June. Can you recall who gave the instruction that Boipatong was to be attacked, and what did he say?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't be able to remember properly, everything that happened on that 17th, I will say the people in charge were Damarra and Mkhize.

MR BERGER: And Mtwana Zulu?

MR TSHABANGU: I didn't see him on the 17th of June 1992.

MR BERGER: When last did you see him before the 17th of June 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: You don't want to commit yourself to any time or date at all, is that right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes it is correct, but I do confirm that I didn't see him on the 17th.

MR BERGER: Would you agree with the statement that nothing of significance happened at kwaMadala Hostel without the consent of Mr Mtwana Zulu?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm not sure, but I know him as a prominent leader, above most of the leaders.

MR BERGER: Do you dispute that Mr Mtwana Zulu was in charge of the attack on Boipatong, and in fact present in Boipatong at the time of the attack, do you dispute that?

MR TSHABANGU: I deny that.

MR BERGER: I can put it to you as a fact that you are wrong.

MR TSHABANGU: I stand by my words that on the 17th I didn't see him at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that he might have been in Boipatong and you didn't see him; or you can state positively as fact that he was not in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm saying, on our way when I was with the group I didn't see him. Even at the hostel, when we left the hostel, he wasn't there.

MR BERGER: Are you saying it's possible that he was in Boipatong and you never saw him?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm not saying that.

MR BERGER: What was your attitude to the attack, were you in favour or against?

MR TSHABANGU: I was in favour of the attack.

MR BERGER: So when you say it's Mr Mkhize or Damarra Chonco told you and the other men at the stadium that night, tonight is the night that we are attacking Boipatong, go and fetch your weapons, you were keen in what was happening and you were interested and you were willing to join the attack on Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Why did you want to go on this attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Because I wanted to align myself with the people. We had agreed that we should achieve a particular political goal, the goal of neutralising the ANC and to stop the ANC people from regulating our lives, and to fight for our freedom, to be free to go wherever we want to go in the Vaal region, and that's why I went to the people.

MR BERGER: Who was the target in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I would say the majority of the people, or the community of Boipatong who were supporting the ANC.

MR BERGER: But you knew that there were ANC supporters, PAC supporters, IFP supporters, all living in Boipatong. How did you identify the ANC supporters?

MR TSHABANGU: On the 17th of June it never came to my mind that there are IFP members at Boipatong, I was under the understanding that since they were attacked and chased out of the township, they might have ran to other places. Therefore I was convinced that it's only the ANC which is staying at Boipatong, and the other people who were not ANC members, for example the PAC people, I think they work together with the ANC.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee yesterday, and I won't take it further than that, that you were aware at the time of the attack that there were ANC, PAC, IFP, living in Boipatong. Do you dispute that now?

MR TSHABANGU: I never said on the 17th.

MR BERGER: Is it not correct that at the time of the attack your grandmother lived in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes she stayed at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Your girlfriend and your child lived in Boipatong at the time of the attack, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes but in Sondela, not in Surela where the incident took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who stayed in Sondela?

MR TSHABANGU: My girlfriend and my child.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) grandmother.

MR TSHABANGU: She was staying at Majola.

MS SIGODI: Sorry, and what happened to your grandmother, was she also attacked?

MR TSHABANGU: She wasn't attacked.

MS SIGODI: Do you know why?

MR TSHABANGU: ...(no English translation)

MS SIGODI: Was she in Boipatong on that day?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm not sure.

MS SIGODI: Did you discuss this incident with her afterwards?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that Majola Street is in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Isn't it also correct that at the time of the attack you had friends living in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Were any of them injured or killed during the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm not sure.

MR BERGER: You had absolutely no problems with being part of that attack on Boipatong, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you Mr Tshabangu what you say at page 178 of your affidavit. In the middle of the page you say:

" Op die aand van die 17 Junie 1992 het ek saamgegaan na Boipatong. Ek het 'n kierrie gehad. Ek wou eintlik nie saamgegaan het nie aangesien ek te veel mense in die woongebied geken het. Ek het egter nie veel van 'n keuse gehad nie aangesien ek as 'n verraaier beskou sou word indien ek sou agterbly."

Where's the truth Mr Tshabangu?

MR TSHABANGU: The truth is that's what came to my mind first that I mustn't go there. I ended up going to Boipatong. I also didn't wish to enter any of the houses because I was known in the area, but I ended up entering some of the houses.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what counsel wants you to explain is that you've just told us that you were willing and eager to take part in the massacre, and you were one of the persons as I understand your evidence, who had complained about the circumstances under which you were living in at the hostel. But what you are saying at page 178 is that you did not want to go there because you knew too many people.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I said that Sir. I knew that people know me in the area, therefore I shouldn't go. But if I were not to go people who were inmates of the hostel might take me otherwise because I was staying at the hostel. One thing is that I was also angry because of the things that the people of Boipatong did to me.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu who forced you to go to Boipatong, and who would have regarded you as a traitor if you didn't go to Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I would say personally nobody forced me to go to Boipatong, however the people who were staying with me will have considered the act of me not being present, showing that I'm a traitor. I'm referring to the inmates in kwaMadala Hostel, that's how they are going to perceive me.

MR BERGER: Not the men from Umsinge in particular Mr Tshabangu?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: You see what I want to put to you is that this was an attack not on the ANC, but on all the residents of Boipatong, and that's effectively what you are saying here when you say "I didn't want to go on the attack because I knew too many people in the area", not that they would recognise you, but there were too many people who might get caught up in this attack, and you didn't want to be part of that. Isn't that right?

MR TSHABANGU: No. I would say the truth is, the attack was directed to the whole community of Boipatong together with my relatives, my grandmother, and whoever stays there. Briefly I can explain in this way during that time exactly the way I felt, I had convinced myself that even if my grandmother was attacked or a friend, that wouldn't matter because during this period one didn't exactly have relatives, there were no relations because your relatives could be used as traps or someone who can sell you out to be killed or burned. Each and every individual at Boipatong couldn't be trusted by myself.

MR BERGER: Were there any other instructions given to you at the stadium or on the way to Boipatong or in Boipatong, as to how the attack should be carried out?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember such.

MR BERGER: Were you not afraid when you left kwaMadala on your way to Boipatong that you would be spotted by the police or the Army, or the ISCOR security?

MR TSHABANGU: I was afraid.

MR BERGER: And what assurances were you given that you need not worry about the police because they were going to assist in the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: No assurances were given to that respect.

MR BERGER: And yet as a policeman with some experience in the Force, you were part of a group - you were willing, according to you, part of a group of men armed with dangerous weapons proceeding on a night with a full moon, with lights along the road, and you weren't picked up by the police. You didn't find this strange at all?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: I'm just going to put it to you as a fact, that the police were involved in the attack on Boipatong; that the police vehicles were in Boipatong at the time of the attack; and that white men who could have been policemen, wearing balaclavas were also involved in carrying out the attack.

MR TSHABANGU: The fact is, the IFP branch which is in kwaMadala were not working in coalition with the police. In the very same night I was never in the company of police, I didn't see police while we were attacking the place, nor were we helped with the police when we entered or were leaving the place. Therefore I don't know anything about the involvement of police or white people. I have no reason why I should protect the police here. I have no single intention or reason to protect them.

MR BERGER: Do you know a Sergeant Peens of the SAP?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: He was active in the Vaal during this period, 1990 to 1992, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Before I can answer, when you say he was active, are you referring to the police work or politics?

Please explain the question to me.

MR BERGER: Well let me ask you this them Mr Tshabangu, in what branch of the police was Sergeant Peens?

MR TSHABANGU: If I'm not mistaken he was in the Murder and Robbery Unit.

MR BERGER: Would that be Murder and Robbery, Vereeniging?

MR TSHABANGU: Vanderbijl, I would say Flora Garden.

MR BERGER: Did you know a policeman by the name of Shaga?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Where was he working at the time, 1992, June?

MR TSHABANGU: I think he was still at Municipality Police. I don't know exactly where he was working at the time.

MR BERGER: Do you know where he is now?

MR TSHABANGU: I normally see him around Vaal, I'm not sure whether he stays at Sebokeng or Boipatong, but I usually see him.

MR BERGER: What are his full names?

MR TSHABANGU: I know him as Tickie Shaga.

MR BERGER: Did you know a policeman, a white policeman who was called Rooikop, he had red hair?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Can you tell the Committee what his full names are and where he was working in June 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know his full names. I think he was also in the Murder and Robbery Unit, subject to correction.

MR BERGER: Was he working together with Sergeant Peens at Murder and Robbery, Vanderbijl?

MR TSHABANGU: That's what I know.

MR BERGER: Who is Gatcheni?

MR TSHABANGU: I know Gatcheni as Ndlovu, he is Ndlovu.

MR BERGER: What are his full names and where was he in June of 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know his full names? We used to call him Makeke, if you are referring to the Mr Ndlovu that I know. On the 17th of June I don't remember whether I did see him or whether he was present or not, I don't know.

MR BERGER: But this Mr Ndlovu, was he a hostel resident?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And what was his first name?

MR TSHABANGU: I repeat, I don't know his full names. We used to call him Makeke.

MR BERGER: And this is the same person who was known as Gatcheni?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: You also heard yesterday, and I'll try and make this short, I read from certain affidavits, and in particular the affidavit of a man who was a security guard at Metalbox, who said that he saw an army vehicle coming from the direction of where Cape Gate and Slovo Park is, coming towards the direction of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, and he saw that vehicle before he heard any shots being fired in Boipatong. I want to ask you the question Mr Tshabangu, whether it's your evidence that there were no SADF vehicles in the vicinity of Boipatong, very close vicinity of Boipatong at the time of the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Soldiers or I should say the soldiers' vehicles, with reference to this photograph - aerial photograph, I don't know whether it's the "M" one, I don't know whether point "H" is Frikkie Meyer, when we were getting out of Boipatong we just crossed a bridge. The vehicle was standing on the road as we were coming closer after crossing the bridge. It proceeded and stopped at a Trek Garage, that's where I saw the soldiers' vehicle.

MR BERGER: That was when you were coming out of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: So your evidence is that there were no Army vehicles or police vehicles inside Boipatong at the time of the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry Mr Tshabangu, that means you're saying they were not in Boipatong at the time of the attack, am I right?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm saying when we left kwaMadala, entered Boipatong - went to Boipatong and getting out of Boipatong, I was never in the company of police or soldiers. I first saw soldiers when we were getting out of Boipatong, they were standing on point "H" of the aerial photograph, which is the N1 I think. That's my evidence.

MR BERGER: You testified yesterday that you only attacked one person and caused damage to one house during the time that you were in Boipatong, is that right?

MR TSHABANGU: I said I did attack one person with a stick, I did destroy some goods. I only entered one house and destroyed goods inside. That's what I said yesterday.

MR BERGER: The house that you went into, that was the only house that you went into, and the only house that you caused damage to, am I right?

MR TSHABANGU: The house that I entered, it's not the only house where I destroyed goods. I did a lot of damage in many houses, breaking windows and any other goods which I found outside. However, this is the only house that I entered, the house I'm referring to.

MR BERGER: Where was that house?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't be able to precisely say where it was, but I will say it's towards the end when we were getting out, on the last streets which exits the area. I entered the house when we were about to leave.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Tshabangu, I find it strange that you can't be more precise than that for someone who spent so much time in Boipatong, you would surely know the one house that you entered and caused so much damage to.

MR TSHABANGU: Sir, I don't remember. This happened about 6 years ago.

MR BERGER: Were there any people in the house when you entered?

MR TSHABANGU: I didn't see people.

MR BERGER: At the stadium you wanted an AK47, and you landed up with a stick. I take it you were very keen to kill as many people as possible in Boipatong that night? If I'm correct, I put it to you that it's difficult to believe that you only attacked one person.

MR TSHABANGU: It is true that I was prepared to kill as many people as possible with an AK47. I ended up with a stick, and my wishes were diminished or couldn't be fulfilled. And even this person, I didn't go straight to him, he was someone who was running away.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you go in search of other people to kill, why didn't you go into other houses and see if there were people hiding there?

MR TSHABANGU: The weapon I was armed with discouraged me from behaving with the full anger that I had, because it was not an effective weapon which I could use to kill someone.

MR BERGER: You tried to kill one person with this stick and you told the Committee yesterday if I'm correct, that this was the kind of stick that could kill people.

MR TSHABANGU: I hit him very hard with the intention that he should be seriously injured. Yes, it was a weapon which was capable of killing him. When I say it wasn't just a small stick which you can see outside, I mean it was not a soft, it was a very hard stick, that's what I was trying to explain.

MR BERGER: I understand that, it was a stick capable of killing people. My question to you is, why didn't you go into other houses to see if there were people there that you could kill?

MR TSHABANGU: It was because they knew me and because of the weapon I was armed with. Therefore, and also during their trial, most people from Boipatong came to evidence never stated that they did see me, because I was moving outside of the houses trying to hide myself. However if I was armed, maybe I could have fired outside through the windows.

MR BERGER: But the fact remains, even on your own evidence, that you did go into a house. Now you didn't know whose house that was, you didn't know if there were people in the house, and you didn't know if they'd be able to identify you. You did it on that occasion, why didn't you do it on others?

MR TSHABANGU: I did that. When we were getting out I realised I didn't do anything, and I tried to get something that I could do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger have you finished this point?

MR BERGER: I have yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand from your - the turn of your evidence that you wanted to obtain if you could, an AK47, and that's a lethal weapon. That seems to suggest to us that you wanted to cause maximum damage to human lives.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You had a stick, you only hit one person with that stick during the entire duration of the attack.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that prevented you from using that stick on more that one individual?

MR TSHABANGU: I was avoiding from entering houses. The person whom I hit was someone who was being followed by others along the streets, so he came past me as he was running towards us, we stopped him and I hit him.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from this individual who ran towards you, throughout your remaining in Boipatong, no other individual ran in your direction?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Not a child?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Not a woman?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Tshabangu I'm putting to you that once again you are being very spare with the truth and you are deliberately underplaying your role in the killings in Boipatong that night.

MR TSHABANGU: That is untrue Sir. I associate myself with all the acts as if it's something that I did, because I did associate myself with the people who were committing these acts.

MR BERGER: You saw a lot of people carrying possessions out of Boipatong, am I right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you know why this was done?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know. If I was the one who took the goods maybe I will have an answer today. I won't be able to answer because I never took anything from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Did you not ask your comrades "what are you doing, why are you taking the stuff, why are you plundering", didn't you ask them?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Is it because it was not strange to you, you expected your comrades to plunder Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: No. It was not a strange thing because this is what normally happens in a township, if people come to burn your house, they will take anything which they can lay their hands on. If you have a shop, they go in and take your Chappies.

MR BERGER: I don't want to trivialise it so I won't go down that road, but you know that all the goods were burned. What I want to ask you is, is it correct that these goods were burned at a time when the police were surrounding the hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't be able to comment as to whether they were surrounding the hostel or not, but the goods were burned in the hostel.

MR BERGER: On the day following the massacre?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And the police were present at the hostel that day, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes in the evening they were present. The things were burned in the morning if I remember well.

MR BERGER: Is it you evidence that the police did not seal the hostel very soon after the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: My evidence is that police sealed the hostel on the 18th in the evening, and the things or goods were burned at about 9, 10 or 11 - it might be earlier or before that.

MR BERGER: You saw the goods being burned, and yet you say that you have no knowledge who gave the order to burn the goods?

MR TSHABANGU: I said I don't remember who gave the instruction.

MR BERGER: How is it that you remember who gave the instruction to attack Boipatong? You remember things that happened before the attack, but you cannot remember who gave the instruction to burn the goods?

MR TSHABANGU: It is because this person who gave the instruction that Boipatong should be attacked, it wasn't the first time he gave such instructions. He used to give other instructions, like we should be prepared, that was Damarra and Mkhize. This was repeated for about two times, but I can't remember exactly who gave instruction that things must be burned.

MR BERGER: As far as people who you have identified you either shot or were near you during the attack, I want to put it to you that it's - again you're not being full and frank because the people you name are either dead or co-applicants.

MR TSHABANGU: I would say Bongo was there, Sapila. Kleintjie was present, he's still alive. Moosa Dlamini, he was there, he's still alive. And someone by the surname of Mujene was present, he's still alive. Mantjebene, he passed away, he was present. Nyembo was present - I don't know whether he's still alive or not because I don't see him anymore. Gobe was there, Bujose was there. I don't know why you think I'm hiding something.

MR BERGER: Because when you were asked this question when you gave your evidence yesterday, you didn't mention any of these names.

MR STRYDOM: I specifically remember the names Gobe and Bujose being mentioned.

MR BERGER: Not by this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: I do recall that Gobe was mentioned, but I - let me just check. Would that have been in his evidence in chief Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson in the light of the fact that more that one witness testified, I lead the witness, I didn't take notes. I must align my memory, I may be wrong. I would seek some guidance from Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well a number of names were mentioned by ...

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson I will withdraw my objection because my learned friend here has got notes, and those name do no appear there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: In fact my learned friend I think is thinking of the evidence of Mr Khanyile.

CHAIRPERSON: And did we not in that regard also issue a direction that we should be notified?

MR PRIOR: That was ANC people.

MR BERGER: No Chairperson it wasn't those people, it was the member of the South African National Defence Force and others who were mentioned by this witness. It was Nonusa, and Mabone.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr he's withdrawing that, so the question stands.

MR TSHABANGU: What's important to me is that I'm mentioning these names in front of the Committee and the people, and most of them are still alive and they are not the applicants. I didn't remember them yesterday, but I remember them today and I'm revealing them.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu you heard yesterday it was said that there were 11 women in Boipatong who were either raped or sexually assaulted during this attack. What is your comment on that?

MR TSHABANGU: My comment is the raping of women during war or in a time of peace, it's not acceptable in a community and we should try by all means that something is done about it. Secondly I would like to mention that the two sides are responsible of the outcome of the incidents because such things should not have happened. I will refer you to one lady by the name of Masabata from Sharpeville who was seriously or extensively raped, her muscles cut, a bottle inserted in her vagina - only because she was an IFP member. This is a very bad habit and I don't condone it, I mean the raping of women.

MR BERGER: Are you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer then to the question that Mr Burger is putting?

MR TSHABANGU: The people who did that, I would say I personally it was a very bad thing. Even if the situation of war where we're fighting, I don't believe that it's a proper thing to do if you are fighting and you as an individual have the power to go around and rape women.

MS SIGODI: Mr Tshabangu I think what we'd like to know is, do you know - did you see it happening, or did you not see it happening?

MR TSHABANGU: I never see it.

MR BERGER: Did you not hear the day after or the days following the attack, some of your comrades bragging about what they had done to the women of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that you were not party to any discussion, you did not overhear any discussion where the rapes and sexual attacks on women of Boipatong was even mentioned?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Are you also saying that those people who carried out these rapes and sexual attacks were acting in revenge for similar attacks on women who were IFP members?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair. Sir I do not have any questions, but I would like - it's been brought to my attention that the question of rape and sexual was not put to the first applicant Mr Victor Mthembu. The reason for that is that these facts were only brought to our attention after the first hearing. On the 25 of July Ms Nomsa Mgele and myself consulted with a woman in the community and took instructions on this point, and it was only at that time that we got instructions in regard to these facts. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, just a few questions.

Mr Tshabangu you heard Mr Khanyile testify that the splitting into two by the group that left kwaMadala Hostel was spontaneous and it happened when the group was chasing the SDU members who ran into two different directions. And your evidence is that the splitting into two groups took place before you entered Boipatong when you stopped at that tree marked "K" on Exhibit M1, is that so?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes that's correct.

MR MALINDI: Is Mr Khanyile wrong in this respect?

MR TSHABANGU: I explained that we tried to divide in two groups but we ended up proceeding towards the same direction on Mshweshwe Street. So maybe in that way Khanyile is correct.

MR MALINDI: Mr Tshabangu you could not be right because you say specifically that at the tree you stopped, broke into two groups, which even though walked along Mshweshwe but were distinct groups.

MR TSHABANGU: I was answering with reference to direction. You said others went through Legwa and others proceeded down on Mshweshwe Street.

MR MALINDI: And then you testified further that once your group had followed - started following the Legwa route you split into further smaller groups, is that so?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Do you know who gave orders for the splitting into these further smaller groups?

MR TSHABANGU: No, what happened is, when we entered along Legwa, it's when we were following these people running away, and people started running into different directions. That's what I was trying to explain Sir.

MR MALINDI: Were these smaller groups distinguishable groups, or were they sort of haphazard groups?

MR TSHABANGU: Sir I would say there were two entities as groups, or I would say we were distinguishable because we were wearing red bands - white bands.

MR MALINDI: Mr Tshabangu what I would like to suggest to you, is that the deliberate splitting under that tree marked "K" on Exhibit M1 and the further splitting into smaller groups once your group had entered Legwa Street, suggests some form of detailed planning of this attack.

MR TSHABANGU: I don't think so.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Tshabangu the house that you entered and damaged property, where were the occupants of that house at that time?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know, there was nobody inside when I arrived, but it was clear that people had been in the house because goods were destroyed and the curtains were not in order.

MR PRIOR: Given your evidence that you wanted to kill as many people as possible, what was stopping you entering more houses than the one you entered?

MR TSHABANGU: I was discouraged by the weapon that I had because I couldn't use it quickly and effectively, the way I wanted to.

MR PRIOR: Was that the only reason why you never entered more homes?

MR TSHABANGU: And also because I could be identified in some of the houses.

MR PRIOR: I don't understand because your intention was to kill those people, so whether they identified you or not, you were going to kill them. What difference did it make?

MR TSHABANGU: I knew that with a stick I couldn't effectively hit some and kill, but with a firearm I can shoot a particular area and be sure that the person is dead.

MR PRIOR: Just to turn to the AK47's. At the stadium they were laid out and people were asked who wanted to use them, and they could select and take them. Is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Was there any control that qualified persons, in other words persons who knew how to handle those firearms, in fact took the AK47's, and not people who had no experience with weapons?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know because when I came back from fetching my stick, I found that all the firearms were already taken away. Whether the people were able to use them or not I can't comment.

MR PRIOR: At the time, we have got information, that the Vaal Commando was doing a two month camp in the area Vanderbijl, and I'm not talking about the 17th of June, the night of the massacre, but before - a week, two weeks. Was it the custom of the Commando to patrol the streets of Vanderbijlpark inclusive of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I used to see them Sir.

MR PRIOR: And they would go into Boipatong patrolling up and down the streets that we've seen on the sketch and of the township Exhibit J?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes they also patrolled Boipatong.

MR PRIOR: There's just two last aspects, the one deals with the destroyed property. You said in your evidence earlier that Themba Xhosa arrived - was it the next day, the 18th of June, with a high ranking policeman and he asked or addressed the residents saying that you should all assist the police in their investigations, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR PRIOR: How was the burning of the property that linked the residents of kwaMadala to the Boipatong attack, how did that burning assist the police?

MR TSHABANGU: With respect may you please repeat your question.

MR PRIOR: How did the burning of the property of the people of Boipatong, the TV's, the heaters, the radio's, the clothing, whatever, the destruction of that property, how did that assist the police with their investigation?

MR TSHABANGU: It didn't help them.

MR PRIOR: Was the intention to destroy evidence linking the residents of kwaMadala to the Boipatong attack, was that the intention of the burning of the property, instead of handing it over to the police?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know Sir.

MR PRIOR: Did you as a policeman at that stage, ask anybody why this property was being destroyed?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR PRIOR: And finally, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If the people wanted to destroy these items, they would have destroyed them in Boipatong, there would have been no need for them to bring them the hostel and destroy them in the hostel. Were you present when these items were destroyed?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find out from the people why are these things being destroyed, or did someone say why these things are being destroyed?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes it was said that is to make sure that the police when they arrived, they can't see these things. People were talking around the fire.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have one final aspect. You seem from your reply in respect of the allegation of women being raped, your evidence seems to suggest that you have respect for the dignity of women. It's seems to be the case.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, but together with maids and children.

MR PRIOR: I don't understand that part, but be that as it may, just explain to me what - how it differs when elderly women in their 60's, 70's and 80's are killed in a shocking way? How does that sit easier with you than the rape of a woman, just explain that to the Committee.

MR TSHABANGU: Sir, I would say I as an individual or person, rape and murder are not acceptable things. It doesn't treat me well if when we're in a battle, you fighting, someone is raping other people. However, if elderly women are proof that should the burning of people by their children, I think they should also suffer the consequences.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MS PRETORIUS: I have no questions thank you Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Mr Chairman ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr - are you going to be fairly, I think we have just ...(inaudible)

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, approximately 10 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: At this stage we'll take the lunch adjournment and come back at 14h20.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: ...(inaudible) you referred to the aerial photograph, will you please look at Exhibit M1. Is that the aerial photograph you were referring to?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now I don't know if you understand the photograph properly, but if you look on the left-hand side just above the letter "D" you will see a road starts there, and that road goes across the photograph right to the right-hand side to the letter "M". Do you see that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I do see that.

MR DA SILVA: That is Frikkie Meyer Boulevard. Now if you look at letter "K", that points out a tree, do you see that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir. Now Mr Khanyile's evidence yesterday was that on the way back from Boipatong the group gathered at the tree, then the group crossed at the pedestrian bridge marked "H", and during this process some vehicles that they saw retreated to a Trek Garage which was marked with the letter "C". Do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Do you agree with this evidence, is this what happened?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: So in other words when the soldiers saw the group, the retreated to the Trek Garage at point "C"?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now under cross-examination from Mr Berger, you said that you saw the soldiers at point "H", at the pedestrian bridge, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes it was on the same street where I saw police, or should I say Army vehicles.

MR DA SILVA: What you saw was vehicles, is that correct? Could you tell if it was police or Army vehicles?

MR TSHABANGU: I saw an Army buffalo.

MR DA SILVA: So you saw one Army buffalo. Now the point that I'm trying to make is that in an answer to Mr Berger's cross-examination you said you saw them at point "H", is that correct, or did you see them retreating to point "C", the Trek Garage?

MR TSHABANGU: I saw them on the same route towards the Trek Garage, that is point "C".

MR DA SILVA: Now yesterday you also said Mr Tshabangu, that when the group entered into Boipatong, that the group were walking next to the Serela Combined High School, and that next - or the fence demarcating this school was barricaded with razor wire, do you recall that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Do you recall seeing other portions of Boipatong which had been barricaded with razor wire?

MR TSHABANGU: No I do not remember Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Did you get the impression that the razor wire was there to protect the school or was it to protect Boipatong, or can't you say?

MR TSHABANGU: I was under the impression that the razor wire was meant to protect Boipatong.

MR DA SILVA: Do you out of your own knowledge know who put up the razor wire to protect Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR DA SILVA: You also said yesterday that on entering Mosheshwe Street there were obstacles at the entrance of the street. Could you describe these obstacles?

MR TSHABANGU: It was wire and trees.

MR DA SILVA: When you're talking about trees, do you mean tree-stumps? Tree-stumps were put across the roads, is that right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: And you said you saw this on several portions in the streets in Boipatong, that tree-trunks were put across the road?

MR TSHABANGU: I cannot say for sure that I saw these in all the areas, but it might as well have happened the same way, but I'm not sure. There were barricades - streets were barricaded.

MR DA SILVA: By whom were these streets barricaded, do you know?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know the names but I think it may have been the members of the SDU, Self-Defence Units, those are the ones who were patrolling the streets at night.

MR DA SILVA: In other words SDU's and possibly residents of Boipatong, do you agree with that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR BERGER: Chairperson that wasn't what the witness said at all and - well let me just leave it at that, that's not what the witness said.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson I put the question to the witness and I asked him if he agreed with it, and that was his answer, he agreed with that. If necessary I can put the question again.

Mr Tshabangu do you know - you said that the SDU's, as far as you are aware, put up these tree-stumps. Do you know if any of the residents of Boipatong were involved in this?

MR TSHABANGU: I said I think it may have been the SDU's.

MR DA SILVA: And would you agree with me that the purpose of these barricades was to stop vehicular traffic from going into Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: While you were suspended at this stage during the attack, you were suspended from the police, did you still have contact with your colleagues that were still in the Police Force? Did you still speak to members that were actually doing active duty in the Police Force?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Do you know if the police could have free entry into Boipatong, could they come and go like they wanted to?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Yesterday you also testified with reference to a person called Nonusa, do you recall that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Is Nonusa a Christian name, surname or nick-name?

MR TSHABANGU: It's a nick-name.

MR DA SILVA: Do you know what Nonusa's real names are?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know, I think the surname might be Madula if I'm not mistaken.

MR DA SILVA: Could you please repeat the surname again?

MR TSHABANGU: Maduna.

MR DA SILVA: And you say this person, as far as you are aware, was a member of the Defence Force during 1997, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Do you know when he became a member of the Defence Force?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR DA SILVA: When was your father injured?

MR TSHABANGU: He was injured between 1991 and 1992, but I'm not sure.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Strydom?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Mention was made of a name Victor Gerswa, alias Getisi, what happened to him?

MR TSHABANGU: I was told he died at the hands of the police.

MR STRYDOM: Were you also told if Sergeant Peens was involved?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant who?

MR STRYDOM: Peens.

Daniel Mabote was a co-accused with you in the criminal trial, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And did he die during the course of the criminal trial?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did he die in police custody?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Have you heard if Sergeant Peens was involved in his death?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR STRYDOM: Now during the night of the attack, were the majority of the people of Boipatong in their houses, either asleep or doing with whatever they were busy, in the houses?

MR TSHABANGU: They were in their houses Sir.

MR STRYDOM: As you moved around through the township that specific night of the attack, did you find many people outside in the streets, or on the streets?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR STRYDOM: At the beginning of your evidence you testified that you are actually a Shangaan person. Do you know all the customs and traditions of the Zulu nation?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Andries Nosenga, do you know him?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR STRYDOM: Was he a resident in the hostel during 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: I do not remember.

MR STRYDOM: During the night of the attack, did you see him?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR STRYDOM: You testified that or you mentioned the name Sondela. Which part of Boipatong is Sondela?

MR TSHABANGU: That's the lower part of Boipatong, or southern part of Boipatong that is separated by approximately 200 metres from Surela.

MR LAX: Sorry if I could just come in, maybe you could look at Annexure "J" for us, and just - have you got it there in front of you now?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I have it.

MR LAX: Just say on there what streets from that Annexure "J", you can see all the street names there, which streets encircle Sondela?

MR TSHABANGU: It doesn't appear there.

MR LAX: Thanks. So is it in fact off Annexure "J"?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: Does it appear on any of the photographs?

MR TSHABANGU: If I'm not mistaken I think it does appear slightly.

MR SIBANYONI: What annexure is that?

MR STRYDOM: The witness has pointed to photograph MM1.

MR LAX: If it appears on M1, then which - whereabout on M1, if you can just say in relation to the letters "JK" or "LM", or "FGH".

MR TSHABANGU: It's right across J from "J" downwards.

MR LAX: So that's the - what appears to be a built-up area going around about "J". There's some trees, and then you say it moves down?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Would I be correct in saying that Sondela is a separate township from the Surela part of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: The Sondela part of Boipatong ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, could you just lift up the annexure that we - the exhibit that we're looking at. Okay, and where is Sondela there?

MR STRYDOM: When Mkhize said that, and the word that was used, Boipatong should be attacked on the 17th of June 1992, did he use the word "Boipatong" or "Surela"?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember well.

MR STRYDOM: As far as you were concerned at that stage, which political party did the majority of the people of Boipatong support?

MR TSHABANGU: African National Congress.

MR STRYDOM: The Self-Defence Units, to which political party were they aligned to?

MR TSHABANGU: ANC as well.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: I just want just clarify this, did I hear you correctly that the only time you saw this Defence Force vehicle, what you referred to as a "buffel", was when you were on the foot-bridge coming back?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: How far from you was the vehicle at that stage?

MR TSHABANGU: This is an estimation, maybe from where I am right to the gate, the entrance of this hall, or of this place.

MR LAX: It's about 200-odd metres, maybe ±.

MR STRYDOM: I agree with that, 200 to 300 metres.

MR LAX: And then from that point, to use your words ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The estimate is that it's approximately 200 to 300 metres?

MR LAX: Yes, between that.

MR BERGER: I would have thought that it is closer to two hundred but, I don't want to quibble.

MR LAX: From that point it then retreated, to use your words, to the Trek Garage?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: And it parked there, that's the impression I get from what you've said?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes it parked there.

MR LAX: Were there other vehicles at the garage at that time?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember, I didn't pay attention to that.

MR LAX: And is it correct that that's the only time you saw police or Defence Force during the entire course of - leading up to the attack that night, and after the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Sigodi?

MS SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson. Just one point which I'd like to clarify, you mentioned that you were staying in the same room with Teresa Mofoking and Timothy Mazibuko.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MS SIGODI: What was your relationship with Teresa Mofoking?

MR TSHABANGU: She was my girlfriend.

MS SIGODI: And what was the form of the room, was it one big room or did you divide it?

MR TSHABANGU: It was a big room, half of it, it was divided into two.

MS SIGODI: So Timothy would also have his own privacy?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MS SIGODI: What worries me is the fact that you were cross-examined and it came out that Timothy came with a duvet full of blood. What I want to know is, who came first, was it Timothy or was it you, after the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't have any clear recollection in as far as that is concerned, and yet I don't remember seeing him with a bloody duvet. I did see him with a TV set and threw it somewhere just before we crossed coming from Boipatong.

MS SIGODI: You saw him with a TV set before going back into the hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, just before we exited Boipatong.

MS SIGODI: If there was a duvet with a - if he had it, a duvet which was full of blood, would you have seen it, or would it have been possible for him to conceal it?

MR TSHABANGU: It's possible that I wouldn't have seen it. Maybe he could have even concealed it because I wasn't used to go to his room, or to the other part of the room that he occupied.

MS SIGODI: And then about the meeting on the 17th of June when you were called and you were told that you must go and attack Boipatong, were the AK47's there at the stadium when you were called to the meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: Coming back from fetching our weapons I did see the AK47's - coming back the second time now after we fetched our weapons from our rooms.

MS SIGODI: You did see them?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes we did see them.

MS SIGODI: And roughly how many AK47's were there?

MR TSHABANGU: This is a rough estimation, I will say about 4 or 6 upwards, it's possible.

MS SIGODI: But definitely not more than 10?

MR TSHABANGU: I wouldn't say so, there were not too many of them.

MS SIGODI: And were there small guns?

MR TSHABANGU: Some had small guns in their possessions, even at Boipatong.

MS SIGODI: So the AK47's that were available for distribution to the 300 to 400 people, there were only - I mean people had to compete for only 6 AK47's, is that what you're saying?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu my questions will be around seeking clarity on your political conviction. You told the Committee that you were a member Xhosa's, and Xhosa's will be more aligned to the ANC, am I correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: And then again people who were victimised in the township, we are told they are Zulus. You were not victimised because of the fact that you are not a Zulu, you are a Shangaan you told us?

MR TSHABANGU: At the time when I was a member of Xhosa's the Zulu-speaking were not yet attacked or being victimised, even IFP. We were just fighting against policemen at the time.

MR SIBANYONI: When you left - when you went to kwaMadala Hostel to see refuge, at that stage you were not yet a member of the IFP?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, my father was at the time a member of the IFP.

MR SIBANYONI: Will I be correct that you left the township for different reasons that political affiliation, or your ethnicity?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR SIBANYONI: What was the reason for you to leave the township?

MR TSHABANGU: As I already explained, that amongst other things I was being blamed for the fact that I had friends who were IFP members, and my father as well was an IFP member. This is why I say these are some reasons that motivated me to leave the location, the township so to speak.

MR SIBANYONI: Last question, what would you say if a person says there is sort a perception that it seems you might have joined Inkatha to use it as a hurdle to get back to the people who were, I will say, having problems with you in the township?

MR TSHABANGU: I will refute all of that, it's not like that.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words you subscribed, you believed the believed the aims and objectives of Inkatha, that's why you joined it?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We've heard that there was a meeting prior to the attack, I think this meeting was probably on the 10th of June 1993, at which the hostel residents were told to prepare for an attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us what preparations were made for the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: What I did myself, I was ready and waiting on him to hear him when he gives us the go-ahead to attack. That is what I understood that message to be.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from being mentally ready for the attack, but if you're going to go in an attack, you do not need your mind only, you need weapons to fight with.

MR TSHABANGU: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: You told us, I think you did, that ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, I didn't hear the translation of that last answer, please ...

CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat your answer.

MR TSHABANGU: What I was saying is that I was not aware about the preparations that were in place for the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) certain monies that were being collected for the purposes of purchasing arms?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think you went further and said the people who contributed were those who were working, you were working at a tuck-shop I think it was?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, that's what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make any contribution towards the purchase of those arms?

MR TSHABANGU: No I was taken as a person who was unemployed. The tuck-shop that was in the hostel, I was not even renting or paying any money.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before the attack on Boipatong did this collection of funds for the purchase of arms take place?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm not in a position to say anything, but I will say it was quite some time. I'm not too sure whether to say it was long time, because they used to threaten us that they will come. That's when this whole thing emerged that we have to get ready and we have to collect some money.

CHAIRPERSON: From your own personal knowledge, do you know whether any arms were purchased following the collection of these funds?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Subsequent to the instruction that the residents of the hostel must be - must get ready for an attack, were any funds collected to purchase firearms?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, the collection of money went on.

CHAIRPERSON: So after these instructions funds were collected for the purchase of the arms?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever try to - well, I understand that you were one of the persons who were much more concerned about the conditions under which you were living?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just trying to find out whether those arms in fact were delivered.

MR TSHABANGU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) moved to the hostel.

MR TSHABANGU: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) kwaMadala Hostel.

MR TSHABANGU: In 1991 if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the year in which you joined the IFP?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything arising from the questions by the Committee?

MR BERGER: No questions Chair.

MR LAX: Sorry, there was just one question that I made a note to ask and I forgot to ask it. There's mention in some of the statements about a white Grenada. Who drove a white Grenada in the hostel that you knew of?

MR TSHABANGU: It was Wolly Bujose.

MR LAX: Wolly Bujose?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: That vehicle was seen prior to the attack in the vicinity of the hostel with its boot apparently very, very heavily loaded. Did you see it on that day?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR LAX: Did Bujose have anything to do with the purchase of firearms?

MR TSHABANGU: I never saw him.

MR LAX: And then just one last aspect, what other firearms were available for use besides AK47's on that night in the stadium?

MR TSHABANGU: I only saw the AK's. Inside Boipatong I realised that there were some who had in their possession small guns, but I don't know where they got those from.

MR LAX: So there were no handguns being made available out of some sort of supply?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know much about the small guns, but what I saw were AK's just before we left.

MR LAX: And you never saw any pump-action shotguns?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR LAX: Did you see any home-made firearms there?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR LAX: Thanks very much Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Chairperson ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: Is Isaak Mosobode Bujose the same person as Wolly Bujose?

MR TSHABANGU: The Bujose I'm referring to is the one who was a state witness in Pretoria, that's the one I'm referring to, I'm talking about in other words.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) that you're referring to as Wolly Bujose?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Chairperson, there's just one question arising from the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, you said that when you returned from your room you saw 4, 6, maybe more, but less than 10 AK47's on the ground in the stadium, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it possible that there were many more AK47's on the ground in the hostel, other weapons such as shotguns, home-made weapons, on the ground which had been taken by some of the residents before you returned to the stadium?

MR TSHABANGU: I never saw anyone fetching any guns, and I have no knowledge in as far as that is concerned.

MR BERGER: No what I'm asking you, is it possible that before you returned to the stadium, there had been other AK4's and other guns on the ground which had been taken by some of the residents, or are you saying that amongst the 300 or 400 attackers there were only 4 to 6 AK47's and no other guns such as shotguns?

MR TSHABANGU: It's not possible for me to say exactly anything in relation to guns because, but I'm saying that I did see people in Boipatong or towards Boipatong having in their possessions small guns.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Berger wants to find out is that, because according to your evidence you went to fetch your stick, but when you returned to the stadium, there were AK47's, and you could not get one because they got finished. What Mr Berger is trying to find out, is it possible that there were many firearms there, but that by the time you returned there were only these 4 or 6 that were there?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Thank you I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: You mentioned that you grew up in Boipatong, what was your address there, what was your home address?

MR TSHABANGU: 1772 Sabata Street.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Tshabangu, you may return to your seat.

WITNESS EXCUSED

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARINGS

DATE: 13 AUGUST 1998

NAME: JACK MBELE

CASE NO: AM 6119/97

DAY: 3

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson the next witness I intend calling is Jack Mbele, application no 6119/97. I'm not gonna be too long with this witness, we ran a bit late ...(inaudible).

... (inaudible) witness to be in the witness box if he's not going to be finished with during the session.

CHAIRPERSON: Well unfortunately I don't think it's possible at this stage to give any undertaking in regard to how long the cross-examination is going to be. So as to give you guarantee we will be finished with this witness by the - you know, by the time we adjourn tomorrow.

MR BERGER: Chairperson what - from our side ...

...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Did you want to ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Chairperson all I wanted to say was from our side we will try our utmost to finish with Mr Mbele by tomorrow, and it is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: We will not hold you onto your undertaking. Yes Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson if there's a possibility that the witness cannot finish I would submit with respect, that would be unfair to bring this witness back whilst under cross-examination, only in January. I would suggest, and that's only a suggestion, obviously the final decision is in your hands Mr Chairman, but that I lead the witness in chief and maybe then to end the proceedings at that stage. That's just a suggestion I want to make.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) as it is practically possible. You've got to understand Mr Strydom, there's still a number of applicants that we've got to go through, so we will have to utilise every possible time that we have at our disposal. You know, you have the willingness on the part of counsel of the other side that every endeavour will be made to finish. Let's proceed, and shall we see how far we go.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I'm calling Jack Mbele then to testify, if he can just be sworn in.

JACK MBELE: (duly sworn in, states)

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Mr Mbele in front of you on page 119 of the bundle you'll find your amnesty application. Op page 121 you'll see a signature, is that your signature?

MR MBELE: Yes that is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: And do you confirm that you signed that application on the 26th of January 1989 at Koppies Police Station?

MR MBELE: I agree.

MR BERGER: Just for the record it's 1998.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, thank you. And do you confirm the contents of the application?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: According to the application you were born in Sharpeville, is that correct?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did you move to the kwaMadala Hostel at a certain stage?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: When was that?

MR MBELE: In October of 1991.

MR STRYDOM: During 1992 were you a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party or not?

MR MBELE: I was.

MR STRYDOM: Did you become a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party after you moved into the hostel, or before that?

MR MBELE: After I moved in.

MR STRYDOM: On page 122 and 123 of the documents before you certain answers are provided to certain questions contained in the amnesty application. Do you confirm the correctness of the answers given?

MR MBELE: Yes I confirm.

MR STRYDOM: On page 124 you will find a request for further particulars, particulars asked by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and you'll find the answers on page 126 to page 128. Do you confirm the correctness of the answers?

MR MBELE: Yes I confirm.

MR STRYDOM: Have the answers been canvassed with you again and do you still stand by the correctness thereof?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst we at page 128 you make mention of a person with the name of Makuka, who is this Makuka?

MR MBELE: It's a friend of mine.

MR STRYDOM: Did he also stay in the kwaMadala Hostel?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Was he also part of the attack on Boipatong?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You stated in answer to the question no 6, your reply on page 128:

"I remember seeing a person with the name of Makuka shoot a lady with a 9mm pistol. I saw that she was hit and fell to the ground."

Do you know approximately where in Boipatong did this incident take place?

MR MBELE: I think it was in the settlement area in Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: In your affidavit on page 129 and 130 you state that you partook in the attack, did you also go to Slovo Park or the informal settlement section of Boipatong?

MR MBELE: We formed ourselves in a small group, I think 9 in number and we went into Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: Now before I can ask you about details about what happened at Slovo Park, I just want you to confirm you signature on page 130 of your affidavit.

MR MBELE: That's my signature Sir.

MR STRYDOM: Has this affidavit been canvassed with you again?

MR MBELE: Yes it was canvassed again.

MR STRYDOM: You pointed out one mistake, I just want to refer you to that. On top of page 130 it is stated: "Ongeveer 'n week voor die 17de Junie 1992 was ek by 'n vergadering waar Mkhize gesê het dat 'n aanval op Boipatong 'n moontlikheid was."

Did Mr Mkhize mention Boipatong at that stage?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: So the reference there to Boipatong, would that be correct or not?

MR MBELE: It's incorrect the name Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: On that same page just a little bit lower down it reads:

"Eers op die 17de Junie 1992 toe ek by die stadion kom het ek gehoor 'n aanval op Boipatong gaan nou plaasvind."

Is that correct?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Before you moved to kwaMadala Hostel, were you shot?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Who shot you?

MR MBELE: I don't want to commit myself, I don't know, but it was the comrades.

MR STRYDOM: I want to ask you more about the attack on Boipatong itself. When you entered Boipatong, were you in a specific group or not?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You know who was leading this group?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Who was that?

MR MBELE: Damarra.

MR STRYDOM: Now you testified a little bit earlier on that you broke up into a smaller group, I think you mentioned 9 people, do you still remember the names of the people who formed that group?

MR MBELE: I remember Makuka, Simon, Gose, and other men from the hostel. I just knew them by seeing them, I didn't know their names.

MR STRYDOM: What weapon did you have with you?

MR MBELE: 9mm.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you get that weapon from?

MR MBELE: I got it from Makuka.

MR STRYDOM: Was it a licensed firearm or not?

MR MBELE: It wasn't a licensed firearm.

MR STRYDOM: Did you use that firearm in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if you killed any person by using that firearm in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: I would not say that there is a person that I killed, but I shot at people.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into any houses in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you break windows of any houses in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Can you just slow down a little bit Mr Strydom, I'm just struggling to keep up with you.

MS SIGODI: Sorry Mr Strydom I didn't get it, the last answer, did he say did he break any windows?

MR STRYDOM: His answer was no, I'll just repeat the question.

Did you break windows of - personally you, did you personally break windows of any houses at Boipatong?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you steal any items from people in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: More or less where in Boipatong were you when you fired those shots on people you didn't know if you hit?

MR MBELE: I was in the informal settlement and in the firms.

MR STRYDOM: If you say in the firms, what do you mean by that?

MR MBELE: I'm referring to in the vicinity of the firms next to the location.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the shots you fired, did you hear other people firing shots?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see that other people fired shots?

MR MBELE: They shot but I don't know whether they hit someone.

MR STRYDOM: The leader of your group, Damarra Chonco, did you see that he fired shots?

MR MBELE: I saw him shooting, but it was in the township.

MR STRYDOM: With what kind of weapon?

MR MBELE: 1847.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know an person by the Andries Nosenga?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: An affidavit was handed to us, which purports to be an affidavit of Andries Nosenga, and I want to read a certain portion to you, and I want a comment. I refer to Exhibit ...

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Strydom, we haven't given it a number yet as far as I remember.

MR STRYDOM: Ja.

MR LAX: It will probably only handed in formally at a later stage.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. I will just read paragraph 4 of this document to you:

"When we got out of the hostel onto the road, we were picked up by a police Casspir driven by a white man whose name I don't know. In the hippo there was Shaga of the security branch; a white policeman known to me as Rooikop who had red hair; Peens and our driver. There were 14 or 15 IFP members inside the hippo. Others were walking alongside. Those that I remember who were in the hippo were, Katene, who had ordered us to get into the hippo; Reuben, Themba, Lucky, Makuka, and Dondo."

Now the question I want to ask you is this reference of the name Dondo, are you also known as Dondo?

MR MBELE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: On the night of the 17th of June 1992 did you get into any hippo?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person with the name of Shaga?

MR MBELE: Yes I know him.

MR STRYDOM: Where do you know him from?

MR MBELE: He's a policeman, I knew as we were being arrested.

MR STRYDOM: Have you been arrested by Shaga?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Has he arrested other people you know?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a white policeman known as Rooikop?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person or a policeman with the name of Peens?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Where do you know him from?

MR MBELE: I knew him from Flora Garden.

MR STRYDOM: Is Flora Garden the name of the Murder and Robbery Squad Unit in Vanderbijlpark?

MR MBELE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Howcome that you know him?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson there was a little technical problem.

MR STRYDOM: The question is, from where or how did it come about that you know Peens?

MR MBELE: We were once arrested on our arrival at Flora Gardens. The people who knew him told me his name.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the fact that he was the policeman who arrested people, did you have any dealings with him in the sense that you worked with him, if I can put it that way?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: According to you, on the night of the 17th of June 1992, was the police part of this attack?

MR MBELE: The police were not present.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any white people with or without balaclavas present at any stage during the attack?

MR MBELE: I never saw white people at all.

MR STRYDOM: Can you thing of any reason why you would protect police or white people?

MR MBELE: No reason Sir.

MR STRYDOM: This person I've mentioned earlier on, Andries Nosenga, do you know him?

MR MBELE: Maybe I know him facially, but I do not know him when you refer to him by that name.

MR STRYDOM: If I give you the further information, would you be able to state if you know him? According to this document he's 23 years old, and is in prison presently serving a sentence of 16 years for murder at Maximum B Prison in Leeuwhof. He was convicted in February 1995. Do you have any knowledge of this?

MR MBELE: Maybe you're referring to Matanzema, yes I know that.

MR STRYDOM: Now this person Matanzema, did you see him on the night of the attack?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack, when you got back to the hostel, did you first go to the stadium or directly to your room?

MR MBELE: I went straight to my room.

MR STRYDOM: On the following day did you see that certain goods that came from Boipatong was burned?

MR MBELE: Yes, that's true.

MR STRYDOM: Did you assist in that process?

MR MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who ordered the burning of the goods?

MR MBELE: I do not know who ordered the burning of the goods.

MR STRYDOM: What was the reason why you decided to go with the group to attack Boipatong?

MR MBELE: I did not live happily. If I wanted to go to Vereeniging or Vanderbijlpark, people were to be taken out of the taxis and be burned. When we were walking in Sharpeville, we would be chased after. Our lives were not nice at all. The people of Boipatong were always blocking us.

MR STRYDOM: According to you, who gave the instruction to attack Boipatong?

MR MBELE: I would say the people who lived there, and the reason being that the people harassed us and we were dying, and nothing was happening. The police did not even take care.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, but the question is, who gave the instruction to attack?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Strydom, he thinks you're saying who gave the instruction to attack him and his fellow inmates, that's why he's given that answer.

MR STRYDOM: Who gave the instruction to attack Boipatong - the question is who gave the instruction to the residents of kwaMadala to attack Boipatong?

MR MBELE: I would say it's Damarra.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions at this stage.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, will you be - who's going to start that side?

MR BERGER: I'm going to start.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be convenient if we take about 15 minutes break?

MR BERGER: That will be convenient yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a 15 minute break and come back at 16h10.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: May I remind you that you are still under oath to speak the truth. Do you understand that?

JACK MBELE: (s.u.o)

MR MBELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mbele you said that you could think of no reason why you would want to protect the police or why you would want to protect the whites involved in the attack on Boipatong. Do you know of two policemen by the name of, one was called Monare and the other policeman was Xaba, X-A-B-A?

MR MBELE: I do not know them.

MR BERGER: Well I can tell you that they gave evidence in which they implicated the police and they have both since been killed. My instructions are that they gave evidence during the Goldstone Commission hearing into the events at Boipatong, do you have any knowledge of that?

MR MBELE: No.

MR BERGER: You gave evidence that you were shot by the comrades. Is it correct that you went to hospital after this attack?

MR MBELE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: When you were in hospital, did you have a bullet removed from your left thigh?

MR MBELE: I was referring to the right leg, not the left leg.

MR BERGER: Did you ever have a bullet removed from your left thigh?

MR MBELE: I think so.

MR BERGER: When was that?

MR MBELE: I think it was around 1991.

MR BERGER: How many times have you been in hospital to have bullets removed from your legs?

MR MBELE: Three times.

MR BERGER: When was the first time?

MR MBELE: It was in 1991 when I was fighting with the comrades.

MR BERGER: And the second time?

MR MBELE: It was the same year, 1991.

MR BERGER: And the third time?

MR MBELE: That was when I got injured after the Boipatong incident.

MR BERGER: Was that shortly after the Boipatong incident that you were shot?

MR MBELE: I think so.

MR BERGER: You see, during your criminal trial you were asked at page 3393 - you were accused 64 were you not?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: The Court asked you, at line 19:

"Ek het vanoggend verstaan u is tweekeer geskiet?"

Your answer was yes. You were then asked:

"Die eerste keer, in watter been is u geskiet?"

Your answer, the left. You were asked then:

"Die tweede keer?" --- You said: "Die regterbeen."

You were then asked by the Court, when were you in hospital for the second time, and your answer was in 1993, "... ek is nie seker van die datum nie."

Now let me just get to the point, when you were in hospital the first time when you were shot in the left leg, that was on the 17th of August 1992. On that day a bullet was removed from your left thigh. So what I want to put to you is that the attacks that you are talking about took place after the attack on Boipatong, and not before.

MR MBELE: I agree with you when you say - yes, the left leg was shot after the Boipatong incident.

MR BERGER: And the right thigh was shot even later, according to your evidence at the criminal trial in 1993?

MR MBELE: I was shot twice on the right leg in 1991 and yet the other time.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just repeat the answer.

MR MBELE: I say I was shot twice on the right leg, I was first shot before the incident of Boipatong, and I was shot another time after the incident, which was in 1993, that Mr Berger has referred to.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that on your right leg?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: At your criminal trial, how many times did you say you had been shot, twice or three times?

MR MBELE: I do not remember how many times did I say I was shot.

MR BERGER: You mentioned that you were arrested once by Sergeant Peens.

MR MBELE: He did not arrest me.

MR BERGER: He was there when you were arrested, what were you arrested for?

MR MBELE: We were - it was being alleged that we were the hit-squad from kwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you were involved in criminal activities in the Sharpeville area?

MR MBELE: No.

MR BERGER: Were you friendly with a person by the name of Dennis Mofokeng?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you and he were involved in criminal activities in Sharpeville. As a result of that you fled to kwaMadala.

MR MBELE: I knew Dennis after I went to kwaMadala, and from then onwards he became my friend.

MR BERGER: Were you and Dennis accused of being involved in hit-squads operating from kwaMadala?

MR MBELE: Dennis was not involved, I was the only one being accused of that.

MR BERGER: You say that you never entered any houses and you never killed any people.

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR BERGER: According to the evidence of Mr Bujose, you entered a house on the corner of Shlube and Bafokeng Street. Would that be correct?

MR MBELE: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: According to Mr Maloi who was a state witness, you and others were seen coming out of a house with a duvet, a television set and a wall-clock. Would that be correct?

MR MBELE: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: In your criminal trial you said that you'd been shot in the upper leg, and you had been taken to hospital two weeks before - I beg your pardon, and two weeks before the 17th of June you were discharged. Is it correct that that incident that you were referring to was the incident which occurred after the attack on Boipatong?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now the house on the corner of Shlube and Bafokeng Streets is house no 734 Bafokeng. In that house two people were killed, Mr Andries Manyeke, age 50, and Ms Lena Manyeke, age 47.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger can you just give us the paragraph numbers just to help us, that you're referring to in your memo.

MR BERGER: I'm referring to the Annexure, and it's pages 14 and 15 of the Annexure, the last three pages of the document.

MR LAX: So it starts at the bottom of page 14, no 734?

MR BERGER: That is correct yes.

MR LAX: Thanks.

MR BERGER: And that house is on the corner of Bafokeng and Shlube Streets. Mr Manyeke was stabbed above his waist; he had back wounds; he was chopped in the back of the head, and he was also shot above his right eye. Ms Lena Manyeke was stabbed all over her body, her chest, her head, and there were too many stab wounds to count. Wasn't the state witness Bujose correct when he said that you entered that house, and doesn't it follow that you were part of a group of people who attacked and killed Andries and Lena Manyeke?

MR MBELE: I was not part of that group.

MR BERGER: You see, the other thing that is interesting is, is that according to Mr Bujose you emerged from a house, another house, carrying certain property. And very close to 734 is 722 Bafokeng Street, and in that house Matilda Shloebe was killed, Elizabeth Shloebe was injured, and Paw-Paw Shloebe was killed. But what's really interesting is what was stolen from that house. A TV set was stolen, and amongst other things, a duvet was also stolen. Two of the items which Mr Bujose - I beg your pardon, Mr Maloi said he saw you carrying out of that house, you and a group of other. Is this just co-incidental Mr Mbele?

MR MBELE: He made a big mistake that person.

MR BERGER: Are you saying you were not in the area of Bafokeng Street at all?

MR MBELE: You see, I do not know Boipatong very well when it comes to streets, but I did not get into the houses, he is making a mistake.

MR BERGER: Were you together with Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: I only remember Makuka, Simon and Gose.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, would you just repeat the names, I didn't catch all of them when you asked the question.

MR BERGER: Mr Lax it's one person, his name is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, he's applicant no 7.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that you might have been with him, you can't remember, or you were not with him?

MR MBELE: I am saying I did not encounter him where I was.

MR BERGER: And Timothy Stals Mazibuko, applicant no 5, were you with ...

MR MBELE: No.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that the three of you, applicant no 5 and applicant no 7 and yourself, are the three youngest members of the group of applicants?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you're saying the three of you are not friends - were not friends at the time?

MR MBELE: We were friends at that time.

MR BERGER: Surely if you were friends, you would have gone to Boipatong - gone on the attack together?

MR MBELE: I did not know how the next person felt. You know, we are different when it comes to emotions.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, the - what counsel is putting to you is that because you were friends, you must have gone to Boipatong together.

MR MBELE: I do not agree with him.

MR BERGER: What room were you staying in at kwaMadala Hostel?

MR MBELE: 2023.

MR BERGER: And what room was Timothy Mazibuko in?

MR MBELE: 2002.

MR BERGER: And Mr Mkwanazi, Sonny Mkwanazi?

MR MBELE: 2002 as well.

MR BERGER: Was your room close to their room?

MR MBELE: Yes, nextdoors.

MR BERGER: And when the signal came that you must go to the stadium that night, the night of the 17th, surely you went there together, you, Sonny and Timothy?

MR MBELE: No.

MR BERGER: Did you see them at the stadium?

MR MBELE: Yes, I saw them.

MR BERGER: Surely you went to stand with them?

MR MBELE: No.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MR MBELE: There was no reason for me to stand with them.

MR BERGER: Were you standing with other friends?

MR MBELE: I was just in a group of people, I would not say who was next to me.

MR BERGER: You were a very young man at the time, I take it that you were quite nervous about participating in the attack, or am I wrong?

MR MBELE: I was not nervous.

MR BERGER: So you never felt the need to go and associate yourself with people who you were friendly with?

MR MBELE: Not necessarily that, there was no need. But there was no reason for me to go and stand next to them, we were all inside the hostel.

MR BERGER: And when you left the hostel and you moved to Boipatong, did you move together with Timothy and Sonny?

MR MBELE: I would not say whether they also left. I did not see them, I saw the other men who stayed in the hostel.

MR BERGER: So are you telling the Committee that after you saw Sonny and Timothy at the stadium, you never saw them again from the time you left the stadium until the time you came back to kwaMadala?

MR MBELE: There is only one person I saw, that person is Stals.

MR BERGER: That's Timothy.

MR MBELE: That's him.

MR BERGER: Where did you see him again after the stadium?

MR MBELE: When we were approaching Boipatong I saw him.

MR BERGER: And after you had entered Boipatong, did you see him again?

MR MBELE: No.

MR BERGER: So it's your evidence that you entered Boipatong; you went to Slovo Park; you went back to kwaMadala - all the time you were with people who you didn't know very well, is that your evidence?

MR MBELE: I'm saying I knew three people and I was the fourth one, and other men from the hostel, I knew them but their names just went out of my mind.

MR BERGER: The three people who you knew, Makuka, Simon and Gose, were they your friends?

MR MBELE: Yes they were my friends.

MR BERGER: What is Makuka's full names?

MR MBELE: I only know his surname, his surname is Selayi.

MR BERGER: And where is he today?

MR MBELE: He died last year on the 30th of December.

MR BERGER: And Simon, what is his surname and where is he today?

MR MBELE: His surname is Molebatsi, he also died last year.

MR BERGER: Gose, what is his surname and where is he today?

MR MBELE: His surname if Mapondo, he also died in 1996.

MR BERGER: You were referred to the unsigned affidavit of Andries Nosenga, paragraph 4. The reference in that paragraph is made to Reuben. Do you know anyone by the name of Reuben?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Would that be Tebogo Reuben Magubane, applicant no 3?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Themba, did you know any Themba who was part of the attack on Boipatong?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR BERGER: How many Themba's did you know who were in the attack?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry Mr Berger - did you see this Themba ...(indistinct)

MR MBELE: I do not understand you quite well Sir. He was present in Boipatong, but he has since died.

MR BERGER: Which Themba are you referring to?

MR MBELE: I'm referring to Themba Mabote.

MR BERGER: Were there other people by the name of Themba in the attacking group of Boipatong?

MR MBELE: I only knew that Themba. I do not know whether there were other Themba's in that group, I only knew this Themba.

MR BERGER: Did you know any person by the name of Lucky who was involved in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MBELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir the individual - you say the people in your group, there are only three that you knew by names, three I think you said?

MR MBELE: Those are the boys from the township. The other men who were in our company I do not know by names, but there was another one called Damarra Chonco.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the four boys from the townships that you've mentioned, including Damarra, they're all dead?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There were other persons in the group that you only knew by sight?

MR MBELE: That is correct My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Are those individuals still alive?

MR MBELE: Madala was destroyed and we went into the township to look for alternative accommodation. I do not know whether they're still alive or not.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele I'll ask you again, are you sure you don't know anybody by the name of Luck, who was present in Boipatong on the night of the attack?

MR MBELE: When we went to Boipatong I did not see Lucky, but on the 18th I heard him talking, and it looked like he was present according to what he was saying.

MR BERGER: Who is this person called Lucky, what is his surname?

MR MBELE: It's Sonny Michael Mkwanazi.

MR BERGER: Your friend?

MR MBELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi also known as Lucky?

MR MBELE: That is correct My Lord.

MR BERGER: He's known as Lucky Stikinyao, isn't that right?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Makuka, you've already told us, he was with you.

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And Dondo is you.

MR MBELE: Yes, that's me.

MR BERGER: Are you sure that you were not in a group of people moving towards Boipatong, which included Tebogo Magubane, Themba Mabote, Sonny Mkwanaze, Makuka, and yourself Dondo?

MR MBELE: I would not say I was not in their group, but I want to explain this to you Mr Berger ...

MR BERGER: Yes, I'm listening.

MR MBELE: The people that you have mentioned their names, when we left the hostel from, when we left for Boipatong we were in a large group, and we went into the township still being in this large group. When the shooting began between ourselves and the Defence Units, we managed to chase after them. That is when we started forming our squads, but we were not more than 15 in number, we were about 11. This is the group that included Makuka, Vusi, Simone, myself and the other gentlemen that I've referred to.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who is Vusi?

MR MBELE: I was saying Gose.

MR BERGER: You see, according to the state witness Majose, Sonny Michael Mkwanazi or Lucky, was also seen at this house on the corner of Shlube and Bafokeng Streets. Are you saying that it's just co-incidence that the two of you are friends; that two of you are referred to in the affidavit of Andries Mosenga; that two of you are identified by the state witness Bujose as having been in that house at the corner of Shlube and Bafokeng Street, all of this is just co-incidence, it never happened?

MR MBELE: They've made a big mistake, such a thing never happened.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I enquire, Exhibit J reflects the houses along the various streets in Boipatong. I've been informed that the houses coloured in an orange koki pen were damaged. Those marked with a pink koki were people who were killed, and in green where people were injured. Some houses have all three colour markings. My Exhibit J indicates the house at Bafokeng and Shlube, the corner thereof, as just having an orange coloration or code. My learned friend has referred to that house. If we're referring to the same thing, as where two people were in fact killed. Can I just ask for clarification please Mr Chairman?

MR BERGER: My learned friend is correct, the map is not accurate, it should also have a pink spot, and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the position, it turned out last time that the colouring on this map is not accurate, and I think attempts were going to be made to ensure that we'll have a bigger map which will truly reflect the position.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The house that's been referred to, this is the house that is marked with, is it a cross?

MR BERGER: That is the house, yes Chairperson.

Mr Mbele the day after the attack on Boipatong, did you discuss what you had done, with your friends Sonny and Timothy?

MR MBELE: Yes, there were many of us and each one was relating his contribution or what he did.

MR BERGER: And what did Sonny say he had done?

MR MBELE: He told me that he broke windows at houses.

MR BERGER: According to the state witness Mr Maloi, he says - or said, that the day after the attack Sonny Mkwanazi, who was accused no 65, said that he had raped somebody in Boipatong. Did he tell you that?

MR MBELE: I did not hear such a thing.

MR BERGER: Did anybody tell you that they had raped or sexually assaulted any of the women of Boipatong, or did you hear from others that they had heard that people had been raped in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: If I remember well, I heard that in Pretoria during the court proceedings. It was Gose, when he said he saw Lucky raping.

MR BERGER: Where - did he say where he saw Lucky or Mr Mkwanazi raping, which part of Boipatong were they in when he saw Lucky raping?

MR MBELE: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Who else did you hear of who had raped women or sexually assaulted women in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: I never heard anyone thereafter about the sexual assault of women, or even the rape of women.

MR BERGER: How did you enter Boipatong, which street did you go along?

MR MBELE: I do not know Boipatong well, there is a tarred road in one of the streets, that is the only street that has tar. We used the last street towards the right.

MR BERGER: At that time you were in Damarra Chonco's group, is that right?

MR MBELE: We were still together.

MR BERGER: When did you divide up into groups and where was that?

MR MBELE: When we saw the Self Defence Units that is at the tar road inside the township. There is a gravel street that crosses that tarred road, that is where the group split in two.

MR BERGER: This splitting into two, was it spontaneous or was it pre-arranged?

MR MBELE: According to what I realised on that day, it was a spontaneous thing.

MR BERGER: Chairperson I intend traversing fairly quickly what this witness did in Boipatong, but I don't know if that's going to take longer than I anticipate and I see that it's already past 5 o'clock. I don't know if you want to adjourn at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient point to interrupt a cross-examination?

MR BERGER: Yes it would.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, you referred to the evidence of Mr Maloi and the trial relating to what Sonny said he had done. What is the page - do you have a page reference for that?

MR BERGER: Chairperson the reference I have is at page 309 of bundle 2 of the papers before you.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the extract from the judgment?

MR BERGER: That is correct. At page 3757 of the judgment, dealing with accused no 65, who is Mr Mkwanazi, the learned judge deals with the evidence of Mr Maloi and speaks about the rape there.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. At this point we will adjourn for the day. We will reconvene tomorrow morning at 09h00.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

14-08-1998: Day 4

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: May I remind you that you're still under oath to speak the truth?

JACK MBELE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (continued) Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Mbele, yesterday you told the Committee that the division into two groups was spontaneous. Is it your evidence that the attackers moved from kwaMadala to Boipatong and down that fourth street, that last street, Moshweshwe Street turning left into Lekwa Street without any discussion as to how the attack was going to be carried out?

MR MBELE: Let me briefly say we arrived at an open veld next to Boipatong. We were in the front but there were talks in the middle of the group but I did not get to what was said and we proceeded to the last street of Boipatong. According to me the groups were formed when the shooting started between us and the comrades.

MR BERGER: Where were these talks?

MR MBELE: We stopped next to a tree. I was in a hurry to get into the township, I did not pay attention to what was being said but there were talks.

MR BERGER: You say that you were in the front of the group and these talks were happening in the middle of the group?

MR MBELE: That's what I would say Sir.

MR BERGER: So then I take it that you would have been at the front of the group as the group entered into Boipatong?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: If you look at page 130 of the bundle, it's the second page of your affidavit, in the middle of the page you say:

"Ons het later in twee groepe verdeel"

well let me go one sentence before, you say:

"Ons is as een groep uit die hostel uit, ons het later in twee groepe verdeel. Ek was in Damarra se groep. Ons het by die vierde straat ingegaan. Terwyl ons beweeg het was ek en Makuka heel agter."

So in your statement you make two points. Firstly you say that you divided into two groups, you then went into the fourth street which we know is Moshweshwe Street and you and Makuka were right at the back?

MR MBELE: Can I give an explanation Sir. After we entered Moshweshwe we were in the forefront. Makuka was not next to me at that time. When we approached Lekwa the comrades shot at us, we shot at them, they ran away and the others turned to the left up into Lekwa and we chased after them and as I was running and other people ran faster than me and they passed and the other men said to me: "Come on let's take this other direction", then we went straight until into Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: You fired shots at the comrades?

MR MBELE: Yes I shot.

MR BERGER: Why is there no mention of that in your affidavit?

MR MBELE: I did not mention everything in this statement.

MR BERGER: The first mention in your statement, in fact the only mention in your statement of your having fired shots is when you were in the vicinity of the firms, the industries?

MR MBELE: At the time of giving this statement it didn't come to me that I should write everything that I did. Maybe it's just a mistake that I did.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that this altercation with the comrades is something that you've picked up from your co-applicants during their testimony and now you think you must bring it into your testimony? Is that what's happening, Mr Mbele?

MR MBELE: That is not so, I saw the confrontation.

MR BERGER: How then did it happen that you and Makuka were right at the back of the group?

MR MBELE: When we entered Moshweshwe, I was in the front. The person who was next to me is Damarra, I'm sure of that. When we approached the corner the self defence units were in front of us. The shooting started and they ran away. We chased after them. As we were chasing after them, there were many people already running in front of me. The other men said: "Let's take this street" then myself and Makuka went into that street.

MR BERGER: And that was the point at which you and Makuka became or were positioned right at the back?

MR MBELE: No, we were right at the back at the time of leaving Slovo Park for the hostel.

MR BERGER: Well I must just put it to you Mr Mbele that that's completely contradictory to what you state in your statement. Do you have any explanation for that? In other words what I'm saying to you is that your evidence now is that you were at the back of the group only when the group was leaving Slovo Park. What you state in your statement is that you were at the back of the group when you were entering Boipatong. I'm putting to you that there's a difference, a material difference.

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, when we left the stadium for Boipatong I was walking in the middle. When we stopped in the open veld before getting into the township I was already in the forefront. When we left that tree I was still in the forefront. When we approached Lekwa Street I was still in the forefront, that was during the shootout of the comrades, then we entered into the other street with Mr Makuka and them. We met another group in Slovo Park, when we joined that group we were right at the back.

MR BERGER: What did you do in Slovo Park?

MR MBELE: We were looking for people who were running away from our members who were in the forefront. We were behind so that if anybody approaches we could shoot at him.

MR BERGER: How long were you in Boipatong and Slovo Park?

MR MBELE: I am not sure but if I estimate it might be 30 to 45 minutes.

MR BERGER: Some of your co-applicants have estimated the time that you were in Boipatong and Slovo Park between an hour to an hour and a half, would you say that that's too long or would you say that approximately the time that you were in Boipatong was round about an hour?

MR MBELE: That is their estimation and this one is mine. I do not know whether I should dispute that.

MR BERGER: What you don't dispute is that you were in Boipatong and Slovo Park for a long time and you had plenty of time to do whatever you wanted to do. Am I right?

MR MBELE: You are right.

MR BERGER: How much time did you spend in Slovo Park? Can you say?

MR MBELE: I think it's about six minutes because we only walked in one street, the street that is dividing the township and the informal settlement.

MR BERGER: And was this towards the end of your time in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: I have a technical problem, I cannot properly get the interpretation.

MR BERGER: My question to you was; would I be correct in saying that you spent most of your time in Boipatong, towards the end of the attack you moved into Slovo Park?

MR MBELE: We took some time to get into Boipatong but it took us quite a short time to get into Slovo Park and we did not spend much time in Slovo Park because we were on our way out to the hostel.

MR BERGER: You see, you must have spent a lot of time in Slovo Park, Mr Mbele, because if you got into Boipatong and you immediately moved after the altercation in Lekwa Street towards Slovo Park, you had to account for, even on your evidence, about a half an hour doing something in the vicinity of Slovo Park before you moved out again through Boipatong. So what I'm suggesting to you is that you spent a considerable time in Slovo Park on your evidence.

MR MBELE: Sir, we were not running, we only ran when we chased after the comrades. That is the only time when we ran. When we headed for Slovo Park we were just walking, we did not run.

MR BERGER: Okay, let me ask you this. When you got to Slovo Park had a lot of death and destruction already taken place?

MR MBELE: I'll say yes because when we approached from the corner there were people in front of us already about 200 metres from where we were. Now we were actually walking on their trails, they had passed already. I would say there was destruction and death already.

MR BERGER: So there was really nothing for you to do in Slovo Park. The business of killing had already been done?

MR MBELE: This group was in front. Some people would be hiding and upon realising that the first group of attackers had passed, they would come out to us maybe for help and then we would finish them off.

MR BERGER: Well, please will you tell the Committee what actually happened when you and your group went through Boipatong, did you find any people? Did you attack any people, did you kill any people?

MR BERGER: After we chased after the comrades the other men we should take the street leading to Slovo Park. It was myself, Makuka, Khosi and Demu. The people started smashing or destroying houses. When we were in the other section of the township next to Slovo Park there was another person who came from the direction of the Slovo Park and he wanted to cross the street into the township. Because we were right at the back, Makuka shot him. I think he shot four or five bullets. We saw him at the time of his falling.

Now this person from a distance looked like a man but when we approached it was a woman. When we came close to this person we realised, we said "this is a woman" and she was wearing a pair of trousers. Then we just consoled ourselves, we said they are also supporting the comrades.

We passed and went on until we reached the vicinity of the firms. Now people were running away from the township into the firms. I took part in the shooting of those people who were running from the township towards the firms.

MR BERGER: So are you saying that you did not attack anybody in Slovo Park?

MR MBELE: Nobody.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you go into the houses and look for people to kill? Wasn't that your purpose in going into Slovo Park in the first place? You said a little while ago that after the first group of attackers had passed through there were other people hiding and who would come out. Did you go looking for them?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, when we approached the corner it appeared to me that we would not even find anyone even if we get into the houses because the first group had already passed and these windows were smashed and the property was damaged. Now the people who would be running in the streets were the ones I would have shot at.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you shoot at those people?

MR MBELE: Chairperson I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Now a minute ago you told us that when you approached the corner there was a group of people which was ahead of you and the people of, who were in Slovo Park would hide from this group and once this group which was ahead of you had gone past, these people would come out of their hiding and approach you for help. and the interpretation we got here was that "we would then finish them off". Is that what happened?

MR MBELE: I don't think those people would come straight to us because we had white bands around our heads. Now it would be very clear to them that we were part of attackers, I don't think they would have come to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what I've just said is what was interpreted to us as having been said by you. Do you understand that?

MR MBELE: Yes I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did any people approach you for help after - or at least advance towards your group after the first group, after the group that you had, were following, had gone past whatever point?

MR MBELE: No, nobody.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why did you tell us then that when you were approaching the corner and I assume this was the corner approaching Slovo Park, there was a group which I think you said was approximately 200 paces or metres ahead of you. Did you say that?

MR MBELE: That's what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you went on to say that once this group had gone past, the people who had been hiding from them would come out and approach you for help. Did you say that?

MR MBELE: Not to approach us and ask help, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what did these people do?

MR MBELE: We had this in our mind, Sir, that the people would see that the first group had passed already and they would come out. On coming out we thought that they would have come to us thinking that we were not part of the attackers but because we had white bands some of us left that kind of thinking. Now there was this one person who was from the Slovo Park into the houses. Makuka shot at that person. We ran towards that person and we realised that it was a woman.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, I understand that. What I wanted to understand is; you see when the people in Slovo Park saw this first group of about, which was ahead of you, they would hide, is that right?

MR MBELE: There's a technical problem Sir and the equipment cuts. I can't hear the interpreter properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what I'm saying is, the people in Slovo Park, well they probably saw this group which was ahead of you went to hide somewhere. Did you not nod your head? Say yes or no.

MR MBELE: Yes they would probably hide somewhere.

CHAIRPERSON: Now once this group has gone past that particular point, I understood your evidence to suggest that these people would then come out thinking perhaps that it was safe ?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then they will come upon you?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you'll finish them off?

MR MBELE: According to us we were going to finish them off.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did you shoot at those people who emerged?

MR MBELE: It is this person that I referred to already that she was not approaching us but she was heading for the township and she was walking alongside or in the side of Makuka, then Makuka shot at her and she fell.

CHAIRPERSON: But what about those people that, you know, forget about that person. I've heard your evidence about that person. I'm just asking you about those people who would, when they see this group which was in front go and hide and once the group has gone past a particular point, think of it as safe, come out, came upon you, did anything like that happen?

MR MBELE: Nobody came out Sir.

MR LAX: Just - if you can, you don't have to change your headphones, the problem is that this little item mustn't be under your papers. That's blocking the signal, this thing. You must keep it open and not under the paper, that's why you can't hear.

MR MBELE: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, if I understand your evidence now it's that you expected the people who had hidden from the first group of attackers to come out but they never did. Is that correct?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You expected these people to come out, to see you, to think that it was safe and to ask you for help, correct?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, I didn't have that feeling, I didn't have that in my mind that they would come straight to us. What I had in mind was the person would be hiding after the first group had passed, the person would come out, upon seeing this person I would shoot at him. That was in my mind.

MR BERGER: No, Mr Mbele, your evidence was that people who were hiding, maybe they would come out, come to us for help and we would then finish them off. That was your evidence, correct?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, please understand me, I am saying I did not have that in mind that they would come to us because of the white bands. These bands were quite visible and white and these people would have realised that the people with white bands around their heads are part of the first group. Now we were looking for people who were hiding from the first group and because of fear, after the first group had passed, they would come out and then we would finish them off.

MR BERGER: I'll deal with that in a moment. I just want to know why you gave evidence when you said maybe they would come to us for help. Why did you give that evidence?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, I was referring to this. You know, when a person is very fearful, when a person experiences something that actually troubled him, the person would come out and if he sees you he would come to you thinking that you would help him. Fear would be dragging such a person towards a group of people, thinking that they would help him. That's what I was referring to.

MR BERGER: But at the same time you give evidence to say that they would see the white bands so they would not come to us for help, they would run away from us because they would know we are the attackers?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, when a person is - fear differs, Mr Berger, we do not control ourselves in the same manner. If one is very fearful he just loses sight of everything.

MR BERGER: I put it to you Mr Mbele that your evidence on this point is nonsense.

MR MBELE: This is my evidence, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps, Mr Berger, you should reserve your comments on the evidence of the witnesses to the Committee.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I thought that in order for me to be able to argue that to the Committee I must put it to the witness so that he has an opportunity to respond.

CHAIRPERSON: But suffice which to put it at the level of being contradictory.

MR BERGER: Chair, I'll submit it goes further than that but I'll leave that for argument.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just telling you that we have to respect the person who is giving evidence. That's all I'm saying.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, you say that you were looking for people who were hiding. How did you do that?

MR MBELE: Not that we were looking for people who were hiding. As the first group had passed, because our group was not big and we were walking quietly, they would emerge from their hiding places, maybe three or two minutes after that and they would come out and find us in the street, not that we were looking for them where they were hiding.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, correct me if I'm wrong but a few minutes ago you gave evidence where you specifically said that you were looking for people who were hiding. Am I wrong?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, we did not look for people who were hiding, we did not get into houses looking for people who were hiding. We were walking thinking that they themselves would come out after the first group had passed.

MR BERGER: You aim in Boipatong and Slovo Park was to kill as many of the residents as possible, am I right?

MR MBELE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And up to that point when you got into Slovo Park you hadn't killed anybody. In fact you hadn't even attacked anybody?

MR MBELE: I would not say I did not attack a person. I shot, I took part in shooting. According to my knowledge, shooting is attacking a person.

MR BERGER: You're talking about the shots in Lekwa Street?

MR MBELE: Lekwa Street and in the vicinity of the firms.

MR BERGER: Well in Lekwa Street you hadn't killed anybody?

MR MBELE: I would not say I did not kill anybody. Nobody fell to the ground. We shot at them, they ran away.

MR BERGER: And the shooting at the firms was after you had already left Slovo Park?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So by the time you got into Slovo Park you didn't know whether anybody had died as a result of your actions?

What I'm putting to you is surely you would have gone through the houses and around the houses to see if there was anybody hiding there who had been missed by the first group of attackers?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, it did not come to me, I did not get into the houses because the first group had passed the streets already and I felt that there were no people in the houses. Some of them might have been hiding somewhere.

MR BERGER: Where did you think they might be hiding?

MR MBELE: I thought that people would be jumping from one street to the other, trying to run away from trouble and such a person would meet us in the street she or he is running to.

MR BERGER: But you never went into the streets, you stayed on that one road which divides Slovo Park from Boipatong and you moved up towards the factories, that's all you did?

MR MBELE: That's what I'm saying Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that you are deliberately underplaying your role in the attack, Mr Mbele?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, I've got nothing to hide because that would not help me at all. I am here to tell the truth as to what I did.

MR BERGER: When you were in Slovo Park it was just the nine of you, there were no other people, the other attackers had passed through already?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You never saw any white men in Slovo Park while you were there?

MR MBELE: I never saw any white men.

MR BERGER: You never saw any policemen?

MR MBELE: I never saw any policemen.

MR BERGER: You never saw any children lying dead in Slovo Park?

MR MBELE: I never saw any child lying dead.

MR BERGER: You never saw any people dead except for the woman who was shot by Makuka?

MR MBELE: The person that I would say I saw in the vicinity of Slovo Park, it's a man who was lying on the ground next to a certain shack inside his yard full of blood.

MR BERGER: That's the only person that you saw who was dead?

MR MBELE: I don't have evidence as to whether he was dead or not. We were just passing, he was lying on the ground next to a wall and then we passed. I would not say whether he was dead or alive because I did not reach next to him.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you finish him off?

MR MBELE: He was in a pool of blood, it was unnecessary to go and finish him off. The people who passed had done the job already. The blood around him was the proof of that.

MR BERGER: From Slovo Park you then came back into Boipatong?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: After you had fired your shots at the factories or at people running toward the factories, did you attack any other people in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: Nobody, Sir.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MR MBELE: There was no one to shoot at.

MR BERGER: So you went the entire length of Boipatong from Slovo Park to Frikkie Meyer Boulevard. You went through Boipatong without attacking anyone?

MR MBELE: That's what I'm saying Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Without attacking any house?

MR MBELE: I did not set my foot in any house in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Without throwing stones at any windows.

MR MBELE: I had a firearm only. I did not even throw a stone.

MR BERGER: You never fired any shots at any houses on your way back from Boipatong?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger we were going to kill people. The firearm that I had was not meant for shooting houses it was meant for shooting people.

MR BERGER: Well then I don't understand Mr Mbele. You haven't yet killed a person as far as you know. Now you come out of Slovo Park, you come back into Boipatong and you go the entire length of one of the streets, probably Bafukeng Street without shooting at anyone, shooting at anything, searching for people that you could kill. In fact you walked peacefully through the entire length of Boipatong?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, each and every person approaches war in his own ways. People got into houses doing all sorts of things. I was walking with the gun in my hand and my only aim was to shoot at anyone who would be running away so that this person falls to the ground and my men finish him off. I did not shoot at houses because I didn't go to houses. I was actually going for people.

MR BERGER: There was no one in the street for you to shoot at, why didn't you go into houses to look for people to shoot at?

MR MBELE: That never came to me, it didn't come to me that I should get into houses, shoot at doors, get into houses, search for people.

MR BERGER: How did you know that the attack was over?

MR MBELE: I did not know, I only realised that we were heading for the exit.

MR BERGER: Now as you were exiting Boipatong am I correct when I say that you went through one of the top streets of Boipatong next to the factories?

MR MBELE: When we left Slovo Park we didn't take the top street we took the bottom street and we met other people at the intersection of Lekwa. Some went straight into that street, I turned to the last street in the vicinity of the firms.

MR BERGER: When you say you didn't take the top street you say you didn't take the street closest to the firms?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, there are two streets. There's Lekwa, it's a tarred road. When we left Slovo Park, we used the street that is not tarred, we used a gravel street. At the intersection of Lekwa and this street people went straight but we turned to go and take the top street. That is where I saw people running from their houses towards the firms. These are the people that I have referred to earlier on when I said I shot at them.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, if I give you a map EXHIBIT J would you be able to plot on EXHIBIT J your course through Boipatong, Slovo Park and then out of Boipatong? Would you be able to do that?

MR MBELE: I will try.

MR BERGER: I'll give you EXHIBIT J, my copy and if you would mark it in blue. I will give you a blue pen. Mr Mbele, do you need to orientate you with the map or have you seen it before?

MR MBELE: I saw the map with one of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, now at the bottom of the map you will see there's Moshweshwe Street, do you see it?

MR MBELE: I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: And then moving along Moshweshwe Street you get to Lekwa Street which is the intersection and then continuing along Moshweshwe Street all the way you finally get to Bakwena Street and then Slovo Park. Do you see that?

MR STRYDOM: Can I point it out to the witness?

MR BERGER: Please, yes.

And then Mr Mbele, if you look at the top of the map, right at the top you get Amatolo Street. Now that is the street which runs next to the factories and the street just below that is Bafukeng Street which was the street I was talking to you about. Now - and then if you go again to the left you see that's exiting now Boipatong. So can you plot in blue on that map your route along Mshweshwe at the bottom and then explain how you get to Slovo Park and then explain how you get out of Boipatong please?

ADV SIGODI: Mr Berger, did you mention Bakwena Street?

MR BERGER: Yes I did.

ADV SIGODI: Where can we find that?

MR BERGER: Ms Sigodi, Bakwena Street is in the bottom right hand corner of the map. It runs off Moshweshwe, Barulong, Majola and Bapedi Streets. It runs in a north south direction, bottom right hand corner.

CHAIRPERSON: Will that be the very last one at the bottom of the map?

MR BERGER: Yes, yes that's it. It runs parallel to Thabo Busiel Avenue which also runs north south.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the very short one there, is it?

MR BERGER: Yes, yes it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Two structures on either side.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, if one follows Moshweshwe Street right to the end of Boipatong just before one gets to Slovo Park, that's the start of Bakwena Street.

For the record, you've indicated a route which enters Boipatong on the western side of Moshweshwe Street, proceeds down Moshweshwe to Lekwa, turns left into Lekwa, moves in a northerly direction until Bapedi Street, right into Bapedi, east along Bapedi to Slovo Park. As you indicated the road which divides Slovo Park from Boipatong, up Boipatong - I beg your pardon, up that street in a northerly direction to the northern part of Slovo Park. East - I beg your pardon, west along Amatolo Street, south into Sekakuni Avenue, west into Bafukeng Street until you get back to Lekwa and then you turned north into Lekwa and then left again and moved west along Amatolo Street and exited Boipatong on the western side of Amatolo Street. Is that correct?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: How many of you were there in this group that finally exited from Boipatong?

MR MBELE: When we were at the corner of Lekwa all these people passed, went into Bafukeng. Myself and Makuka, only the two of us, used the outside exit which is Amatula Street. Just the two of us.

MR BERGER: Why is that? Why did you break away from the rest of the group?

MR MBELE: I do not know the reason why, we just told ourselves that we will not use this street, my brother,that's what we said to each other.

MR BERGER: So are you saying that all the other attackers - now we're talking about hundreds of men continued to move along Bafukeng Street from Lekwa out towards Thembu Street?

MR MBELE: I would not say all of them. I'm referring to a group that was with us.

MR BERGER: Would that be the second group?

MR MBELE: This is not the first group, it's a small group that branched of from Damarra's group. Others used Bafukeng, the two of us used Amatolo, but the people whom we followed, some of them proceeded to Bafukeng because we could see them right ahead for exiting.

MR BERGER: Approximately how many people would you say would have been in the group that proceeded along Bafukeng Street?

MR MBELE: Our group, Sir, or even the first group? I don't understand the question, Sir?

MR BERGER: How many people would you estimate moved along Bafukeng Street as they exited from Boipatong.

MR LAX: Maybe if I can just help here with this, Mr Berger, if you don't mind. Let's be clear. You told us earlier in your evidence that you were following about 200 paces or metres behind a much bigger group from Slovo Park. Did that group follow the same path you have shown here?

MR MBELE: Some of them yes, followed that route. I do not know about those who were in the forefront whether they turned left or others proceeded straight but some of them followed this route.

MR LAX: You were following what you thought was a group of people. Whoever might have been ahead of them, you saw a substantial group, that was your evidence?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR LAX: What Mr Berger is asking you is those people eventually ended up along Bafukeng Street, the same people?

MR MBELE: Yes, I would say they ended up exiting through Bafukeng because they were now heading for the corner, they used Bafukeng, Sir.

MR LAX: The question he asked you was how big was that group you were following that exited down Bafukeng Street. That's what he is actually asking you.

It was a group of about 50, 50 something people.

MR LAX: What happened when you got to the corner and if you look at the map again, what happened when you got to the corner of Amatolo and Thembu Streets? I don't know if Thembu, if the name appears on the map but Thembu is the last street in Boipatong on the western side, it runs north south.

MR MBELE: Before we appeared - before we reached the corner - there were people who came from Bafukeng. Now they were running towards the vicinity of the firms passing Amatolo. That is where I shot. I am the person who shot facing that direction. He did not shoot.

MR LAX: So the shooting in the vicinity of the firms and your shooting occurred near the corner of Amatolo and Thembu Streets?

MR MBELE: Not near the corner. I think we were next to the eighth house from the corner. Now people came running from the second house, running towards the firms.

MR LAX: Yes, I understand that the shooting occurred in the vicinity of Amatolo Street approximately eight houses from the corner with Thembu Street.

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR LAX: And then what happened after the shooting, what did you and your fellow attackers do?

MR MBELE: We left for the hostel but there was a group of people waiting where we entered through to Boipatong.

MR LAX: I'm sorry, I missed the interpretation?

MR MBELE: I'm saying - after shooting, those people ran towards the firms. We proceeded straight to another group of our people who was waiting for us in an open veld.

MR LAX: When you say we it's you and the approximately 50 other people?

MR MBELE: No, it's myself and Makuka. When we left this street there were people coming from the second street. I think these were the people who got into the houses in that street because they had cups, duvets and many things. We met together at a group that was already waiting for us.

MR BERGER: So you, Makuka, the group of attackers who emerged from Bafukeng Street, you then moved to join the other attackers in the veld?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now you see that area where you were and the other people who came out of Bafukeng Street, that is very close to the robot. Let me put it this way, in order for you to get to kwaMadala, all you would have to do is to move straight, cross over Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and proceed towards kwaMadala. Am I right?

MR MBELE: You're right.

MR BERGER: How far did you have to walk from that corner to where the main group of attackers was waiting?

MR MBELE: About ten metres. They were not far.

MR BERGER: And this was a huge group of attackers, am I right? Hundreds and hundreds of men?

MR MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: From there how did you all get back to the hostel?

MR MBELE: When we joined the group we all proceeded for the hostel. When we left that spot I saw a police vehicle, an armoured vehicle and because we were walking fast the vehicle reversed after Themba shot in the air. The vehicle reversed until a garage. We crossed a bridge and we walked on a small path until we reached kwaMadala.

MR BERGER: How far away from your group, this is now the big group, was this armoured vehicle that retreated from you?

MR MBELE: About 250 metres.

MR BERGER: You see what I don't understand, this armoured vehicle was moving along Noble Boulevard, is that right?

MR MBELE: I heard that evidence here, I never saw it driving in that street.

MR BERGER: Well it was driving in the street which runs next to the firms, is that right?

MR MBELE: They say so, I would agree with you.

MR BERGER: And when you met the group, your group, it was approximately ten metres from the intersection of Bafukeng and Thembu Streets?

MR MBELE: I don't want to stick to that 10 metres, I was just estimating, I'm not sure. It is just an estimation of the distance.

MR BERGER: But it's not a very far distance at all?

MR MBELE: No it's not a far distance.

MR BERGER: Now the armoured vehicle then couldn't have been 200 to 250 metres away from you?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, I am saying to you that these are just estimations, I am not saying it is an exact figure. This happened a long time ago and I used to go around in Boipatong, I know that place. I'm estimating Sir, I'm saying it's about 250 metres, it's just to give you a direction.

MR BERGER: You see, on your evidence, that armoured vehicle must have been very close to you, very close to you before it started retreating as you say?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I cannot agree with that statement. It's confusing and misleading. Unless the evidence is that that armoured vehicle was driving on the grass land or area in that vicinity that statement would be correct but I never heard any evidence that an armoured vehicle drove onto the grass area but it stuck to the tarred section and if that's the situation it cannot be very, very close as it was put.

MR BERGER: If the armoured vehicle was on Nobel Boulevard and the huge group of attackers was congregated approximately ten metres from the corner of Bafukeng and Thembu Streets, that group must have been very close to Nobel Boulevard. I will leave it at that but by something very close is relative, if one would have a look at the EXHIBIT M1, one can form a kind of estimate.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer Mr Mbele?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, can you repeat your question please?

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, I'm trying to ascertain how far this armoured vehicle was from your group. Now you spoke about ten metres, not in that context admittedly, I'm not holding you to that and you spoke about 250 metres. So you know the difference between a very small distance and a very large distance, 250 metres is much larger than ten metres. I'm not holding you to exact metres but what I'm saying to you is, if the large group, the hundreds of people that you joined was approximately ten metres away from the corner of Bafukeng and Thembu Streets then it means that that large group was not far from the road, the tarred road, that runs next to the factories which is Nobel Boulevard. Would you agree with that?

MR MBELE: I do not agree with that. Mr Berger, when we emerged from the corner of Amatola, we did not proceed straight to a group of people. We walked towards - we moved towards the left direction, they were in the open veld towards the left.

MR BERGER: When you returned to kwaMadala you came through the main gate, is that correct?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: When you walked through the streets of Boipatong you had no difficulty moving around, is that right?

MR MBELE: In some of the streets we did not have difficulties, in some of the streets it was difficult to walk properly.

MR BERGER: Why is that?

MR MBELE: Some of the streets were not barricaded and some were barricaded with stones and other things.

MR BERGER: The entrance to Boipatong, the exit to Boipatong along Moshweshwe Street, the exit along Amatolo Street, the exit along Lekwa Street, both north and south, those were not barricaded, correct?

MR MBELE: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: Which ones were barricaded?

MR MBELE: There was a wire in Moshweshwe Street and some trees and we removed those so that we can pass through. When we approached from the corner, there were stones blocking the road in Lekwa. That is at the point when we met the self defence units. After that I followed the road that I have already shown and indicated on the map.

MR BERGER: So you moved the obstacles out of the way?

MR MBELE: Yes they were removed.

MR BERGER: When you got back to kwaMadala, did you go back to the stadium?

MR MBELE: I did not.

MR BERGER: Why is it that some attackers went back to the stadium and others claim not to have?

MR MBELE: You do what you feel is right for you. No one was forced to go to the stadium. If you felt like going to the stadium, you went and if you didn't feel like, you didn't go.

MR BERGER: The following day, this is now the 18th June, a lot of property which was stolen from Boipatong was burned. You witnessed that burning, am I right?

MR MBELE: You are right, I witnessed the burning.

MR BERGER: Why were the goods burned, why was this property burned?

MR MBELE: The people were destroying the evidence, that's what I would say. We were destroying the evidence.

MR BERGER: Who told you to destroy the evidence?

MR MBELE: I'm saying I thought these good were burned to destroy the evidence.

MR BERGER: But who instructed the people to burn the goods.

MR MBELE: I do not want to commit anyone, I didn't hear anyone saying the goods should be burned.

MR BERGER: Where at kwaMadala were the goods burned?

MR MBELE: Next to our room there's a new gate in kwaMadala. This was for the employees of Iscor to go through. Now the goods were burned next to that gate.

MR BERGER: At what time on that day were the goods burned?

MR MBELE: I am not sure, Mr Berger, what time it was. I would say it was round about 9 o'clock in the morning, between 8 and 9, just somewhere there.

MR BERGER: Well you know that a lot a property was stolen from Boipatong, taken to kwaMadala Hostel and I assume that all the people who stole property took the property into their respective rooms, would I be correct?

MR MBELE: You would be correct.

MR BERGER: Now, you'd all had a very late night, how is it that the goods were being burned at 8 o'clock that morning? You see, surely somebody must have come around to the rooms to say we're going to burn the property?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, I would not dispute that, I was in the shower. I woke up that morning and took a shower and when I went out I saw a big smoke of the burning goods. I would not dispute the fact that someone might have said the goods must be burned.

MR BERGER: And did you ask anybody why are the goods being burned?

MR MBELE: I did not ask why, I knew what was happening.

MR BERGER: And things that were being burned were television sets, clocks, fridges, stuff like that, am I right?

MR MBELE: You are right but you are wrong when you make reference to a fridge, I have never seen someone carrying a fridge. But you are right about videos, televisions, duvets and blankets but you are making a mistake when you make reference to a fridge.

MR BERGER: How long did the fire go on for?

MR MBELE: Quite some time, a long time but I don't want to commit myself as to how long but it was a long time.

MR BERGER: It must have taken hours to burn T.V. sets, video machines, hard items like that. It must have taken a very long time?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, I'm saying a long time, whether an hour, less than an hour, more than an hour, I do not want to commit myself but it was a long time.

MR BERGER: What about the weapons which had been used during the attack, what happened to them?

MR MBELE: I don't want to lie, I do not know what happened to them but the Police arrived late that day with Themba Khoza and them. We were searched. My gun and Makuka's were hidden. After the Police had searched, when we went back where we hid them, the guns were not there. I would say the Police confiscated those guns.

MR BERGER: Where did the guns come from in the first place?

MR MBELE: Which guns, our guns, my gun as well as Makuka's or the hostel guns?

MR BERGER: Your gun was an unlicenced gun. Would I be correct to say it was a stolen gun?

MR MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: Who stole the gun?

MR MBELE: I would not say we stole the gun. We bought the gun from someone who sells them.

MR BERGER: Who is the person that you bought it from?

MR MBELE: Someone called Neymbe who resided at Sebokeng Hostel.

MR BERGER: That night there were people armed with AK47's, shotguns, other rifles, is that correct?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Where did those weapons come from?

MR MBELE: I only know the guns that were brought by Damarra in his Skyline vehicle. Those are the guns I saw in the stadium, the AK47's. Others who had guns I know that they got hold of the guns in their different ways, they must have used different ways to get those guns.

MR BERGER: When did you see Damarra bringing the guns to the hostel?

MR MBELE: I think it was after the first meeting of the hostel. They were next to his room on the ground.

MR BERGER: Which meeting are you referring to?

MR MBELE: I'm referring to the meeting of a week before Boipatong.

MR BERGER: That's the meeting when it was decided that Boipatong would be attacked, am I correct?

MR MBELE: It was not decided that Boipatong will be attacked, we were told to prepare for an attack whether it was an attack on Sharpeville, Sebokeng, Boipatong, we were not told. We were just told to prepare for an attack, we were told that each one must have his things ready. Where we were going to it was not disclosed.

MR BERGER: In your affidavit at page 130 you, at the top of the page you say that Boipatong was mentioned at the meeting a week before. You say that that is a mistake?

MR MBELE: I'ts a big mistake. That's a big mistake I've made.

MR BERGER: How could you make such a mistake Mr Mbele?

MR MBELE: I realised after writing this that we did not know at the first meeting the place of attack, we only knew on the 17th the base to be attacked.

MR BERGER: When you wrote this affidavit it was this year, correct?

MR MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: You knew when you signed this affidavit that Boipatong was not mentioned at the meeting one week before the attack?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You knew that if anyone said that Boipatong was mentioned at that meeting that that would be a big mistake?

MR MBELE: I would say so. If you mention that Boipatong was mentioned in the first meeting that would have been a big mistake.

MR BERGER: Well, why then did you tell the person who was writing this affidavit that Boipatong was mentioned, in other words, why did you make this big mistake if you knew at the time that it was a big mistake?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, this Boipatong incident happened many years ago and I was still in prison when I wrote this affidavit and when the lawyer came to me to point out this to me, that's when I became clear of this and I told him that. That's when he told me about the amnesty and I said yes, I would like to apply, but you must remember that I'm also forgetful. I made a mistake by mentioning Boipatong in that case.

MR BERGER: When did the lawyer point out to you that this was a mistake?

MR MBELE: Yesterday, Sir.

MR BERGER: And was it yesterday after the lawyer pointed out to you that this is a mistake that you then agreed yes it is a mistake?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Who pointed out to you that this is a mistake?

MR MBELE: Nobody told me that this is a mistake. Nobody pointed out to me that this was a mistake. Before we got into this hall, as I was going through the statement, I went to him, I said: "Listen, in the first meeting there was no conclusion at all that Boipatong was going to be attacked, I made a mistake". That is before I could get into this hall, I went through the statement and I explained to him that Sir, Boipatong was never mentioned in the first meeting.

MR BERGER: Have you now made another big mistake, Mr Mbele, because two minutes ago you said that yesterday for the first time the lawyer came to you and pointed out this mistake and then you agreed after it had been pointed out to you that it was a mistake. Now you're saying that evidence is not correct?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, I am saying to you now, I read this affidavit because the lawyer told me you are next and I went through the statement so that I can confirm that what is written here is correct. Now I told him that the Boipatong issue was never discussed in the first meeting. It was discussed in the second meeting when we were leaving for Boipatong, then he asked me the questions yesterday about this mistake and I agreed that this is a mistake committed by myself.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, please listen carefully to my question. Why did you say that yesterday for the first time the lawyer pointed out the mistake to you and you agreed yes there's a mistake. Why did you say that?

MR MBELE: I agreed to that because he mentioned - he pointed out that mistake before this Committee, he told the Committee that this person agrees that he made a mistake and before this Committee I agreed that yes I made a mistake.

MR BERGER: No, no. The pointing out of the mistake was before you gave evidence.

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR BERGER: So my question to you remains then, why did you give that evidence? You see - Mr Mbele do you see the difference?

MR MBELE: I see the difference.

MR BERGER: Why did you give the first bit of evidence and then change it?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, I'm saying to you this happened long time ago. When the Boipatong incident took place I did not record everything as to what was said in the first meeting as to what was said in the second meeting. I never thought that one of the days I would be sitting before the Truth Commission telling the truth. I never thought of that. That is why this mistake occurred.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that the, as you call it, big mistake has been corrected so that your evidence falls into line with the evidence of your co-applicants?

MR MBELE: This was corrected because my lawyer pointed this mistake before the Committee, he pointed this mistake that was committed by me and it had to be rectified.

MR BERGER: Before the meeting a week before the attack were there meetings before that at which attacks were discussed?

MR MBELE: No.

MR BERGER: After the meeting of the 10th there was another meeting on the Sunday. Do you remember that meeting?

MR MBELE: I do not know about a meeting on Sunday in the hostel.

MR BERGER: What was Themba Khoza's position at that time?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, let me explain this clearly to you. I did not base my hope on the IFP, I did not actually follow who was who. I just went into the hostel for accommodation. I did not even consider going to the rallies even though I was a member.

MR BERGER: So you were not particularly concerned with the aims and objectives of the IFP, would that be correct?

MR MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: On the 14th June there was a meeting in the hostel addressed by Themba Khoza and a Mr Dlamini. You do know who Themba Khoza is, am I right?

MR MBELE: I know him but the meeting that you've just referred to I do not know.

MR BERGER: Do you know Mr Dlamini?

MR MBELE: I do not know Mr Dlamini, I know a Mr Mvelase who is working at the Vereeniging office.

MR BERGER: Why do you mention Mr Mvelase when I asked you about Mr Dlamini?

MR MBELE: I'm saying to you these people you must remember they have many names. You might be referring to Dlamini and I would be knowing him as Mvelase on the other hand, that's why I'm saying to you I do not know of a Dlamini, I know of a certain Mvelase who used to come with Themba Khoza in the hostel. Maybe we're talking of the same person.

MR BERGER: And Mr Mvelase, what was his position?

MR MBELE: He worked at the offices of the KwaZulu Government or IFP, I do not know, it didn't concern me as to who he was and what his position was.

MR BERGER: You attended a meeting which was addressed by Themba Khoza and Mr Mvelase?

MR MBELE: I do not remember a meeting that was addressed by Mr Mvelase and Mr Themba Khoza in my presence.

MR BERGER: You said that Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Mvelase used to come to the hostel. What did they used to come to do if not to address meetings?

MR MBELE: They came to see the leaders of the hostel and the committee members and I've never heard that the committee telling us as to the visit of Themba Khoza and them. They would come on Saturdays, sit behind closed doors, discuss their issues and I would not say it was a meeting that was held and I would then I would be invited to such a meeting. I've never attended such a meeting.

MR BERGER: Who were the leaders in the hostel that Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Mvelase used to meet?

MR MBELE: They used to visit Vanana Zulu, Mr Mtwana and Khumalo. I think he's also a member of the committee, his name is Khumalo and Mr Mthembu as well. He would be in the meeting with them.

MR BERGER: That's Mr Moses Mthembu, am I right?

MR MBELE: That's him.

MR BERGER: The leader of the hostel was Mr Vanana Zulu, Mtwana Zulu?

MR MBELE: Yes he was the leader of the hostel, of the people who lived in the hostel but Mr Mthembu was responsible for the employees who resided in the hostel but Mr Mtwana was the overseer of the whole hostel.

MR BERGER: And Mr Mtwana Zulu was also in control of the weapons in the hostel, am I right?

MR MBELE: I did not know that. Damarra was the person responsible for that and this other one who was called Speshla, but Damarra was the main man handling all such issues.

MR BERGER: Would you agree with the statement that nothing of significance would take place at kwaMadala Hostel without the consent of Mr Vanana Zulu?

MR MBELE: I would say so yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, when you move on to another aspect let us know so that we can take a tea adjournment?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, this would be an appropriate point to take an adjournment.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbele, you are reminded you are still under oath.

MR MBELE: (s.u.o.) That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: (continues) Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Mbele, would you agree that Mr Vanana Zulu was present during the attack in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: I don't want to say he was present or he was not present, I did not see him on that day totally.

MR BERGER: You can't deny that he was present?

MR MBELE: I would not deny, I would not agree.

MR BERGER: You see, because you were in Bafukeng Street and Mr Vanana Zulu was seen in Bafukeng Street and so is it not the case that you are actually aware that Mr Vanana Zulu was in Boipatong at the time of the attack?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, I'm telling the truth here. If ever Vanana Zulu was present, I would mention his name. I would mention that he was present. I did not see him on that day.

MR BERGER: But you saw him at the stadium just before you left for Boipatong, did you not?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger I never saw Mr Vanana Zulu on that day whether at the stadium at Boipatong, even the following day I did not see him.

MR BERGER: When did you see Mr Vanana Zulu for the first time after the attack?

MR MBELE: It was after quite a long time, I think a month.

MR BERGER: And where did you see Mr Vanana Zulu a month after the attack?

MR MBELE: I met him in the morning when we were taking a shower.

MR BERGER: Did you live nearby Mr Vanana Zulu?

MR MBELE: No it's quite a distance from where he lived.

MR BERGER: Was there only one area where you could take a shower?

MR MBELE: Yes there were communal showers for ladies and for men.

MR BERGER: After the attack the hostel was sealed by police am I right?

MR MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: For how long was the hostel sealed?

MR MBELE: Yes it was sealed for two if not three weeks. Maybe even a month, I am not sure but it was quite a long time. It was sealed for a long time really. I would not want to commit myself as to the time, I can't remember.

MR BERGER: And during the time that the hostel was sealed I take it that there were a number of meetings of residents of the hostel to discuss your situation and to discuss the police investigation into the massacre?

MR MBELE: That is correct, Sir.

MR BERGER: I take it in the week following the massacre there were meetings and the week after that there were meetings, am I right?

MR MBELE: Yes there were meetings held even though I'm not sure as to whether it was a week after the attack or the second week after the attack but there were meetings held.

MR BERGER: There were a number of meetings because you had to decide as a group how you were going to react to the police investigation, am I right?

MR MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: And the leaders of the hostel would have addressed these meetings?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, after the Boipatong incident, let me say, if I'm not mistaken on the 18th Themba Khoza arrived. There were still other meetings that were held but these meetings would not be addressed by a person who was known to be a member of the committee. Anybody would stand up and speak. Now the meeting would be disorderly, everybody would be talking, everybody. But the main issue that would be discussed in such a meeting would be working together with policemen.

MR BERGER: And during all of those meetings in the first week, in the second week after the attack, Mtwana Zulu was not there?

MR MBELE: I do not remember whether he was present or whether he was not present.

MR BERGER: You see, according to Mr Vanana Zulu's evidence at your criminal trial, he says he returned to the hostel on the 22nd June 1992. I find it therefore difficult to believe your answer that you only saw him a month after the attack?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, I'm saying to you I'm not dead sure as to whether it was a month. I am just estimating, it's an estimation of how long had I not seen him after the massacre. I'm not sticking to what I've said when I said it was a month. I wanted to give an indication that I saw him a long time after Boipatong incident. Yes, the date that you have mentioned is also a long time after the Boipatong incident.

MR BERGER: No it's not, it's four or five days after the incident.

MR MBELE: Yes, five days is very long.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that Mr Vanana Zulu was present on the night of the 17th in the Stadium, that he was in charge of the attack and that he lead the attack to Boipatong?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, you're not telling the truth.

MR BERGER: If there was a meeting in the hostel on the Sunday before the attack and if Themba Khoza had said at that meeting that if people come and attack you, you must fight back and kill them, if he had said that you would be aware of that, am I right?

MR MBELE: You are right.

MR BERGER: But you say there was no meeting on the Sunday before the attack, Themba Khoza did not say that, correct?

MR MBELE: According to my knowledge on the 18th a day after Boipatong, Themba Khoza arrived but he arrived late at that meeting. It was late when he arrived. The Police were already present. Had he uttered those words I would have known, I would have told you that yes he was present and this is what he said.

MR BERGER: I'm talking about a meeting before the attack, about four days, three, four days before the attack?

MR MBELE: I only know a meeting of a week before. Themba Khoza was not present at that meeting. It was Mkhize, Dlamini and many of us.

MR BERGER: Which Dlamini was present at this meeting?

MR MBELE: Dlamini who was selling meat at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Besides selling meat what position did he hold in the hostel?

MR MBELE: He was not a well educated man, he couldn't hold any position.

MR BERGER: So why did you mention him?

MR MBELE: I'm mentioning him because he was present at such a meeting, I'm mentioning those who were present, those I saw on that day.

MR BERGER: You're referring to the Mr Dlamini from KwaZulu Natal, isn't that so?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: The Mr Dlamini who came with Themba Khoza to address the meeting?

MR MBELE: I do not know that Dlamini, I know the Dlamini that I've just mentioned. He's just an ordinary man. He doesn't - if you by face value, he would not even utter an English word, he would not stand next to Themba Khoza and address a meeting. If ever there was a discussion to take place between him and Themba Khoza it would be greetings. He was just a useless man.

MR BERGER: He also wouldn't be in the same company as Mr Mkhize at a particular meeting am I right?

MR MBELE: They would be seen together, they would be seen together.

MR BERGER: When Themba Khoza arrived at the hostel on the 18th did he ask the residents of kwaMadala whether they were responsible for the attack?

MR MBELE: Yes he asked whether we were responsible for this attack.

MR BERGER: And what did you tell him?

MR MBELE: We said we knew nothing of this attack.

MR BERGER: Why did you tell him that?

MR MBELE: We were aware that he might take us to the police. We were aware that he might tell the police that we have agreed that we took part and besides, the police were present asking that kind of a question in the presence of the police, it was obvious that any answer was going to be heard.

MR BERGER: You knew that the instruction was to kill all the residents of Boipatong, am I right?

MR MBELE: Not all the residents of Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Which residents of Boipatong were to be spared?

MR MBELE: We were looking for the self defence units.

MR BERGER: How did it happen then that the vast majority of people who were killed were either women or elderly people or very young children or even babies?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, in a war situation where people are fighting and when you fight people who have done something wrong in your life, you know it's a war. Now these who were caught in the crossfire, that is how things cropped up. Yes I feel very sorry for what happened, for the children that died. You see, when it comes to women it's clear that they were supporting the youth, I saw it with my eyes, I witnessed it. Those women took part in stoning that person and it was daylight.

MR BERGER: You're talking about an incident in Sharpeville?

MR MBELE: I'm referring to an incident in Serela, Boipatong when Bongani Mbata was killed. I was there.

MR BERGER: Why do you mention this incident for the first time, Mr Mbele?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, Bongani's incident is not connected to Boipatong Massacre but it happened in Boipatong. Now your questions are related only to the Boipatong Massacre and your questions, Sir, led me to mentioning this issue. I was actually supporting the question that you have asked about women and I was saying to you I saw women taking part in throwing stones and I just told myself, well these women are unreliable, look at what the comrades are doing and they supported.

MR BERGER: So all the women of Boipatong were targets of the attack?

MR MBELE: I would not say all were targets. My aim was to go for the comrades but because we've met women and upon seeing them it came to my mind as to what they did and it was also my aim not to say well, this is a woman.

MR BERGER: Which women did you see that made you think this?

MR MBELE: Many. Many women. These people drove us from a Checkers Tavern and we were in a big group until we were escorted by the police, until we passed by the shops. There were still women and that was at that point where we were thrown with stones and they accosted Bongani. There were many of the women there.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, perhaps you would listen to my question. When you went into Boipatong on the night of the attack, do I understand you correctly that you intended to kill as many of the men and the women that you could find?

MR MBELE: I am now responding for myself. I'm saying I witnessed an incident. I witnessed an incident with my own eyes and that incident motivated me, I said to myself God forgive me if I meet a woman I am going to shoot that woman because they support.

MR BERGER: So you answer to my question is yes?

MR MBELE: Yes. Woman, a comrade, anybody above my age I was going to shoot them.

MR BERGER: Any resident of Boipatong who you came across, whether a man or a woman, of your age or above you were going to kill?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, I was going to kill anyone that I come across. A comrade, a man, a woman. I'm here to tell the truth, I don't want to say no I was not going to shoot a woman. At that given moment, I was going to do it.

MR BERGER: Old women and old men as well, over the age of 50, 60, 70?

MR MBELE: Those are my grannies and my grandfathers. No, I would not even dare touch them. I was referring to much stronger women. I'm referring to these women who were in their middle thirties, up to 38, those were very strong women. They could even run faster.

MR BERGER: So men and women older than that were not fair targets as far as you were concerned?

MR MBELE: Repeat your question, Sir, I didn't catch it?

MR BERGER: As far as you were concerned men and women over the age of 38 were not fair targets?

MR MBELE: They were a fair target.

MR BERGER: Do you understand my question?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR BERGER: So then, please, if we can just get finality on this. Every resident of Boipatong, it didn't matter how old or how young the resident was, was a target of the attack?

MR MBELE: According to me, my targets were the comrades and these women that I've referred to. The children, no. Even if I came across a child I would not touch that child, I would not even allow those who were in my company to touch the child.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, I'm sorry I don't understand. Are you saying that men and women older than 38 you would not have killed?

MR MBELE: Let me put it this way, Mr Berger, you can distinguish between an old woman and a middle aged woman, even if it's at night but there are women who you could see that they are still fresh because they could run faster, those are the kinds of women I would be looking for.

MR BERGER: So old women and middle aged women you would not be looking for?

MR MBELE: I would not dare do that. I personally concluded from the hostel that I know who am I looking for, I know who am I going to attack. I grew up in the township and I know who are responsible in the township for these acts.

MR BERGER: You see, I want to put it to you that these distinctions that you draw now were not distinctions that were drawn at the time by you or by any other of your attackers, your co-attackers and that in reality what was decided was we are going to attack Boipatong, it doesn't matter how old or how young as long as the person is a resident of Boipatong, we are going to kill that person. Isn't that what was decided?

MR MBELE: Mr Berger, you're making a mistake.

MR BERGER: So when Mr Victor Mthembu says so, he's making a mistake as well?

MR MBELE: I don't want to involve myself in Victor Mthembu's issues. That's how he responded to the question. When we left for Boipatong each individual knew what he was going to do. We were a group of 300 people and it doesn't mean all of us went into houses and committed certain acts. There are people who went into the houses, there are people who just walked without doing anything, there are people who walked through the streets of Boipatong with there sticks having not used them.

MR BERGER: So are you saying that it was left up to individuals, or that the only instruction you got was we are now going to attack Boipatong?

MR MBELE: We were told that we were going to attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Nothing more was said about who you were going to attack?

MR MBELE: We were attacking Boipatong, the self defence units, that was discussed.

MR BERGER: Who said that you were going to attack the self defence units.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Berger, the Committee is fully aware of the picture. If you could get onto another point now?

MR BERGER: I'm sorry, I'll do that.

You were accused of being a member of a hit squad, is that correct?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: How many hit squads were operating from kwaMadala Hostel?

MR MBELE: I do not know of any hit squad in kwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: You also do not know about the men from Umsinga, is that correct?

MR MBELE: I know three people from Umsinga.

MR BERGER: I'm talking about the contingent that was under the command of Damarra Chonco, forty or fifty men?

MR MBELE: I'm saying to you Mr Berger, I only knew three of the Umsinga people. Three people I know of.

MR BERGER: Did you know of a contingent, about the existence of a contingent of ...[intervention]

ADV SIGODI: Mr Berger, I think you've already dealt with this point yesterday. It is on record that he said he didn't know anything about the contingent. I'm not trying to come into your way but I mean we're going over what we've already gone before.

MR BERGER: Finally, Mr Mbele, what political objective of the IFP did you think you were furthering when you launched the attack on Boipatong?

MR MBELE: I respond briefly to that question. When I went to Boipatong I was not furthering anything for the organisation ...[inaudible] for myself because I was living under unbearable conditions because of the organisation.

MR BERGER: Thank you. I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: What organisation are you referring to?

MR MBELE: IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: Nothing further, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, just a few questions.

Mr Mbele, you say you were present when Bongani Mbata was attacked in Boipatong?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR MALINDI: At that time did you and Mr Tshabangu, your co-applicant, know each other?

MR MBELE: Yes, we knew each other.

MR MALINDI: And if you were present during that incident he would have mentioned that you were present?

MR MBELE: I do not know why he did not mention that I was present but I was there.

MR MALINDI: Well I speak under correction but as far as I remember when he mentioned the people who were present during that incident, he didn't mention you. Is that how you remember his evidence as you were also present here?

MR MBELE: I do not remember whether he mentioned my name or not.

MR MALINDI: The reason that you moved into kwaMadala is not because you yourself were persecuted because of your Zuluness, is it not so?

MR MBELE: That is not so.

MR MALINDI: From the day you signed your affidavit which appears on page 129 was it the first time that you went through it again until yesterday?

MR MBELE: I went through the affidavit before I got into the house.

MR MALINDI: How many days before you testified?

MR MBELE: Yesterday when I was to take the witness stand I took an affidavit and I reminded myself of it's contents.

MR MALINDI: So you were reading it for the first time since the date on which you signed it?

MR MBELE: The affidavit was read to me on that day and I signed it. They left and yesterday before I took the witness stand I read it again.

MR MALINDI: I just need one clarity on another question. You were asked if you saw Matanzima or Andries Nosenga on the day on the 17th June '92 and your answer was no. I just want to make sure whether you meant you did not see him at all on this day or whether you just meant you didn't see him when Boipatong was being attacked?

MR MBELE: I knew Matanzima before he was convicted and I knew him from a distance. I came to know him close when he was convicted for a sentence for 16 years that's when he came close to me and then we could talk to each other. But then, I would not say he was there, he was not there. What I'm trying to say to you is I did not see him at all.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Prior?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, just a few points.

Mr Mbele, at the time you were residing at kwaMadala were you employed?

MR MBELE: I was not employed.

MR PRIOR: How long had you been unemployed?

MR MBELE: Even now I am not working.

MR PRIOR: I'm not talking about now, prior to the Boipatong Massacre, how long had you been unemployed?

MR MBELE: Since I left school I have never worked.

MR PRIOR: Now the firearm that Makuka gave to you, was that the first time you'd handled a firearm?

MR MBELE: It wasn't.

MR PRIOR: Were you familiar with the use of the 9 mm handgun?

MR MBELE: I knew how a firearm was used.

MR PRIOR: Had you in fact fired a 9 mm handgun before the Boipatong Massacre?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Was there anyone in the hostel that you knew was also called Dondo.

MR MBELE: I am Dondo, the only Dondo.

MR PRIOR: And Rubin?

MR MBELE: Yes there's a Rubin I knew.

MR PRIOR: The question is was there more than one Rubin because we know the Rubin that you knew is Rubin Magubane, your co-applicant?

MR MBELE: Yes, that is the Rubin I knew.

MR PRIOR: Is that the only Rubin you knew?

MR MBELE: According to my knowledge, yes he was the only Rubin I knew.

MR PRIOR: Do you know the person by the name of Gajeni?

MR MBELE: I know him.

MR PRIOR: What is his surname?

MR MBELE: I think Gajeni is the surname if I'm not mistaken, Gajeni is the surname.

MR PRIOR: Was he also resident in the kwaMadala Hostel at the time of attack?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And Gajeni, where is he today?

MR MBELE: After I was released from prison relating to this incident I went to the hostel and most of them were not residing there any more. I once saw him in Vereeniging at the offices of the IFP. I think he's somewhere in town.

MR PRIOR: Did you see Gajeni on the evening of the attack whilst you were moving through Boipatong?

MR MBELE: I did not see him.

MR PRIOR: One last aspect, how much ammunition did you have with you on that night?

MR MBELE: Sixteen.

CHAIRPERSON: How many did you have?

MR MBELE: There were fifteen. 1-5.

MR PRIOR: Finally, were you not together with Rubin Magubane, a person by the name of Themba, Lucky - was one of your co-applicants, Makuka and Gajeni on that evening moving through Boipatong all armed with handguns?

MR MBELE: The person I was with is Makuka.

MR PRIOR: Just one last aspect. Did you have any problem with Matanzima, that was Andries Masenga?

MR MBELE: I did not have a problem with him.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Mbele, will you please look at EXHIBIT M1? You'll note that there is a road that runs just above point D on the left hand side, it runs across the aerial photograph to a point called M, do you see that?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: That road is known as the Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, do you recognise it from the aerial photograph?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: You'll see there's a point C, a Trek Garage, do you see that?

MR MBELE: Yes I see that.

MR DA SILVA: Then you see another road, the C, the point C. The Trek Garage is at an intersection, you'll see another road goes to the top of the middle of the photograph and on it are points E and F. Do you see that?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: That road is Noble Boulevard, do you recognise that?

MR MBELE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Do you see a point marked K, that's a tree?

MR MBELE: Yes I see that point.

MR DA SILVA: Do you see a point marked H, that's a pedestrian bridge?

MR MBELE: Yes, I see it.

MR DA SILVA: Now yesterday Mr Tshabangu testified and prior to that Mr Khanyile testified that after the attack the group gathered at the tree, the point marked K. Do you agree with that?

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say they gathered at the tree before or after the attack?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, I understood after.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection was that they gathered there before the attack. Just put the question that you want to.

MR DA SILVA: Do you agree that the group gathered at the tree marked K after the attack?

MR MBELE: I do not agree because when I joined the people had already gathered.

MR DA SILVA: Did you gather or did you join the group at the point at the tree, the point marked K?

MR MBELE: Sir, I'm saying these people were gathered in the middle, whether it was next to a tree, far from a tree, I would not agree because I was right at the back and when we approached from Amatolo, they already started moving and I would not go to where they were standing at first, I would just join them as we all go.

MR DA SILVA: Would you agree that after the attack the group crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard at H, the pedestrian bridge?

MR MBELE: That is correct, that's where we crossed.

MR DA SILVA: When you were in the vicinity of the pedestrian bridge, did you see on the armoured vehicle in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR MBELE: When myself and Themba were approaching and Themba shot, the car moved backwards to the direction of the garage. Whether it stopped or not I do not know.

MR DA SILVA: Now would you agree that it was travelling, retreating in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR MBELE: I would not dispute that, I would not agree with that because the last time I saw it, it was retreating towards the garage and then we were not standing because we were proceeding. Whether it went back or drove anywhere else I do not know.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Mbele, you're being asked what road did the armoured vehicle retreat in. What road was it in when you saw it retreating? That's the question you're being asked.

MR MBELE: When Themba shot, the car was parked next to Frikkie Meyer. When Themba shot in the air it moved and it went to the direction of the garage and it stopped there and we proceeded until we crossed.

MR DA SILVA: When Themba shot how far away was he from you?

MR MBELE: Mr da Silva, I'm now afraid of mentioning the distances because it looks like I'm contradicting myself. Mr Berger was trying to pin me down on this issue of distances but anyway I would say it was quite a distance but I do not know how long the distance was but it was quite a distance.

MR DA SILVA: Could you see Themba clearly?

MR MBELE: Yes he was just next to me like the gentleman sitting next to me. He was even wearing a camouflage jacket.

MR DA SILVA: You say he shot in the air, in what direction was he pointing his firearm?

MR MBELE: I did not even want to see which direction because my mind told me that he was shooting in the air.

MR DA SILVA: Wasn't he pointing in direction of the armoured vehicle?

MR MBELE: If ever he pointed a gun like this he would have shot people who were in front of us. Now he was just shooting in the air.

MR DA SILVA: Wasn't he trying to frighten off the armoured vehicle, isn't that why he shot the firearm?

MR MALINDI: I would agree with you on that point, he was trying to scare them off.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Pretorius?

MS PRETORIUS: I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: I've got no re-examination.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: Yesterday you said that you were arrested by Sergeant Pentz. It was alleged that you - in fact you answered: "It was alleged we were the hit squad from kwaMadala Hostel", do you remember?

MR MBELE: I remember that.

ADV SIGODI: With whom were you arrested?

MR MBELE: It was myself and Rubin, that Rubin and Darkie Chonco and Jabu, his surname is Motsapi and Celo Hunter Ndlovu.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know where Sergeant Pentz could have had this information or why you were accused of this?

MR MBELE: I do not know.

ADVSIGODI: Another aspect, you mentioned that you were friends with Khosi?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Were you arrested together after the Boipatong attack?

MR MBELE: He was arrested for the Boipatong attack, I was arrested afterwards when the court proceedings were in order.

ADV SIGODI: You mentioned that he said to you that he saw Timothy raping? Do you remember that?

MR MBELE: Could you repeat your question, I did not understand it?

ADV SIGODI: In fact let me just get it right for you. Yesterday you were asked about Lucky, who Lucky is, do you remember that?

MR MBELE: I remember.

ADV SIGODI: The first time you said you didn't know Lucky?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Then when you were asked again you say that you know Lucky as ...[indistinct]

MR MBELE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: And that Sonny Michael Mkwanazi is one of the applicants, isn't it?

MR MBELE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Right, then when you were asked about what Mr Maloi said after the attack, it was said to you that you were told that Sonny Mkwanazi had said that he had raped somebody?

MR MBELE: Not Sonny raped a person, Maloi gave evidence in court that he saw Lucky raping a person.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, that's what I mean and you said that you did not hear such a thing?

MR MBELE: It was my first time to hear that from Maloi during his time of giving evidence in court.

ADV SIGODI: Yes and then later on you said that what you could remember was that Khosi said that he saw Lucky raping, do you remember that?

MR MBELE: Maybe I made a mistake there, I wanted to refer to Khobi, you see there is Khobi and Khosi, maybe I wanted to say Khobi, these two names confuse me, Khobi Khosi, they sound much alike. I was referring to Khobi, he is Khobi Maloi.

ADV SIGODI: That has been clarified. So you did not hear from Khosi, you heard from Khobi?

MR MBELE: No, I didn't hear Khosi saying that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

ADV SIBANYONI: I've got no questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your standard of education?

MR MBELE: Standard 7.

CHAIRPERSON: When you returned from Boipatong how many bullets did you have?

MR MBELE: I don't want to lie my lord, I think I was left with only four bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: This person who has been referred to as Lucky, this is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi?

MR MBELE: That is correct, my lord.

CHAIRPERSON: How many names did this individual have?

MR MBELE: He had many names, many. The called him Stikinauw, the other name was Sekwala, the other name was Khlotsi Khlotsi, others used to call him Manani. Those are his names.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the name that was by which he was commonly called?

MR MBELE: That is Stikenauw.

MR LAX: Mr Mbele, I just want to just pick up on the question of Khosi and Khobi. Remember yesterday I didn't hear very clearly and I asked you to repeat what the name of the person was because I thought you said Vosi and you corrected me and you said Khosi, do you remember that?

MR MBELE: I remember that, my lord.

MR LAX: Did you only realise you made a mistake today?

MR MBELE: Sir I had a problem yesterday, I did not feel very well. I would say I was quite nervous and when he told me that I had no choice I had to come and witness, I followed. I didn't want to argue with him but the person I was referring to was Khobi.

MR LAX: Thank you. This chap Bajosi, did you have any problems with him?

MR MBELE: We were in good terms with Bajosi.

MR LAX: And Mr Maloi?

MR MBELE: Khobi was very silly. When he was drunk people assaulted him. We were not in good terms with him.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Because of the constraints of time we are not in a position - I beg your pardon, you may return to your seat Mr Mbele.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Because of the constraints of time we are unable to hear the evidence of the remaining applicants. We will hear their evidence when we'll resume next. The date for the next sitting of this Committee will be announced in due course, therefore rise.

HEARING ADJOURNS

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 20-01-1999

HELD AT: VEREENIGING

NAME: MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI

APPLICATION NO: AM6128/97

MATTER: BOIPATONG MASSACRE

DAY: 3

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, are you ready to proceed?

MR STRYDOM: Yes Chairperson. The next applicant we are calling is Mqambeleni Buthelezi. He is number 1 on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, what language are you going to speak?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated. Yes Mr Strydom?

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Mr Buthelezi, you have signed a Form 1, a document that I am going to show you now. This is on page 46 of the bundle. Do you identify your signature on page 47?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: There is also an annexure to that document, on page 48 and 49. Has this document been explained to you yet again and do you accept the contents thereof?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Certain particulars were required and you answered them. Do you stand by the answers given on page 53, 54, 55, 56, 57 and 58 of the index of the bundle?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, if those are the answers that I know.

MR STRYDOM: You also made an affidavit which is contained on page 59 and 60. Do you confirm your signature on page 60?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst we are with the affidavit, I am going to read certain portions and then you can confirm that evidence.

You moved into the hostel during the course of 1992, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Which hostel?

MR STRYDOM: At the kwaMadala hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: I went to the hostel in 1990.

MR STRYDOM: The reference to 1992, is in fact wrong, it should read 1990 is that what you are saying?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is a mistake.

MR STRYDOM: Previously you were staying at the Sebokeng hostel, is that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you leave the Sebokeng hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: I left the hostel because of the violence that had erupted between the IFP and the ANC, so that I was forced to leave the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Are you a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: When did you become a member of that party?

MR BUTHELEZI: I joined in 1989.

MR STRYDOM: In your statement on page 60, you make the allegation that IFP members were killed, assaulted, burnt, intimidated in the township, including Boipatong.

Do you know who these people were that attacked and assaulted and burnt and intimidated IFP members?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was the ANC responsible for this. It was the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, would you please speak up so that people at the back of the hall could hear what you are saying?

MR STRYDOM: You further make the allegation that the situation got to a stage that there was a political war going on between the hostel and the ANC sympathisers in the townships. Why do you say so?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Would you say that your own life was in danger during that period?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, my life was in danger because I was under very serious threat because of the manner in which the ANC was doing things.

MR STRYDOM: Could you move freely in Boipatong and other towns in the Vaal Triangle?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I was not able to. From 1990 when the violence erupted, I think it was on the 22nd of July, I started experiencing this problem that I could not move about freely.

MR STRYDOM: Of which year? Which year do you refer to with reference to the 22nd of July, of which year?

MR BUTHELEZI: In 1990.

MR STRYDOM: You make the allegation that the residents of Boipatong, marched to kwaMadala hostel at a certain stage. When was that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Would you please repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: In your statement you say that the residents of Boipatong at a certain stage marched to kwaMadala hostel, they couldn't get into the hostel, they wanted to kill us because we are IFP supporters.

Can you just place some date on that happening?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, this march was organised by the ANC, but they did not gain entry into the hostel. We were there as residents of the hostel, and they did not manage to gain entry.

MR STRYDOM: Was that before the attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is exactly how it happened. Often times the ANC had a programme that was meant for the elimination of IFP members.

MR STRYDOM: You further make the allegation that your family members were killed in Boipatong. Can you give more particulars?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes. What I am saying is that I have family members who were killed at Boipatong, but at least I know that there were IFP members who were killed at Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: That reference there to family, is that direct family or also IFP supporters that you refer to?

MR BUTHELEZI: They were IFP members.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you come from originally, before you came to the Vaal Triangle?

MR BUTHELEZI: I am from the Umsinga area in kwaZulu Natal.

MR STRYDOM: In the hostel, you were an office bearer, in fact you were the leader of the Youth Brigade, is that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Was that an elected position?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Who were the other people on your committee?

MR BUTHELEZI: The structure consisted of eight members, I was the Chairman. The vice-Chairperson was Victor Mthembu. There was a Secretary too.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember his name?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do remember his name. The Assistant-Secretary was Matabela.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but can we just get back to the Secretary, maybe I missed the name. Can you give the name of the Secretary, the name that you remember?

MR BUTHELEZI: Zwi. I knew him as Zwi.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, and the other people on this committee, who were they?

MR BUTHELEZI: The Assistant-Secretary was Matabela. Our Publicity Officer was Dingane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, please raise your voice so that the people at the back can hear what you are saying.

You are addressing everyone in this hall.

MR BUTHELEZI: I will try to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Please start with the Assistant-Secretary.

MR BUTHELEZI: The Assistant-Secretary was Matabela.

MR STRYDOM: You also mentioned a person by the name of Dingane.

MR BUTHELEZI: He was the Publicity Officer. He was Dinane Nqumalo.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember any other names?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Can you please provide them to the Committee?

MR BUTHELEZI: (Indistinct) was Dinane's assistant.

MR STRYDOM: You have given six committee members, do you remember the names of the other two?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do remember.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give them please?

MR BUTHELEZI: The Treasurer was Bazuka Mthimkhulu. His assistant was Themba Mabote.

MR STRYDOM: What were the functions of the Youth Committee in the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: The functions of the Committee, it was to inform the hostel residents of the guidelines and policy objectives of the IFP.

MR STRYDOM: What else?

MR BUTHELEZI: Other functions included addressing meetings on what needs to be done, and what should be the proper conduct when attending rallies. Those were the functions of that committee.

MR STRYDOM: Who were responsible to organise rallies?

MR BUTHELEZI: Various rallies were organised at leadership level in Johannesburg, they would inform us if there was a rally.

As members and supporters of the organisation, we would have to attend.

MR STRYDOM: But in the hostel, if there is now a call for a rally from Johannesburg, who would organise the rally in the hostel to get the people together?

MR BUTHELEZI: We as a committee, in conjunction with the senior committee, would organise that the rally is attended.

MR STRYDOM: Talking about rallies, is there an annual rally held at Ulundi in kwaZulu Natal?

MR BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, there is usually an annual conference and then an annual congress.

There is a national conference in July.

MR STRYDOM: Does that take place every year?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, every year in July, there is a conference.

MR STRYDOM: After the Boipatong attack, that is now the July after the 17th of June 1992, did you attend such a rally in kwaZulu-Natal at Ulundi?

MR BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately at that time, I was in prison, so I was not able to attend. I was in prison from the 30th of June until December of that year.

MR STRYDOM: To turn to the attack itself, it is common cause that the attack took place on the 17th of June 1992.

When did you for the first time, become aware that there was going to be such an attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: This was a matter that we had discussed before, because of the fact that the ANC had been attacking us. We discussed that we should launch a revenge attack because of what the ANC was doing to our members.

MR STRYDOM: I want to enquire about approximate date when you became aware that such a possibility existed that there would be an attack.

MR BUTHELEZI: Although I cannot recall the specific meeting at which this matter was discussed, because the minute book may have been confiscated by the police, but there was a meeting where we discussed this matter.

It could have been two weeks or even a week before the actual attack took place.

MR STRYDOM: During that meeting, was it already decided exactly when the attack would be launched?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was not decided. I am sure there was a reason why this could not be done.

MR STRYDOM: At this meeting prior to the attack, were you in favour of the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was in favour of the attack, because of the situation, the difficulties that we were experiencing. Even though this was against IFP policy, the attacks that we were experiencing, were really difficult on us.

MR STRYDOM: Who would have been responsible to make the final decision about the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was Mr Mkhize, the Induna, who was responsible at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: When did you establish that the attack was going to take place on the 17th of June, when did you get the date of the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I have already mentioned, the date had not been decided upon before. I heard the alarm going off on the day of the 17th. That was when we took the decision that we were going to go out and launch the attack.

MR STRYDOM: In your statement you say that you did not go with the other people to attack Boipatong, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did you stay behind at the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: In the light of the fact that you were in favour of the attack, why did you not join the other attackers that went to Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: On that day, I was not feeling well. I was developing a cold. Therefore my state of health was not perfect, that was the reason why I could not join the other people when they went out to attack.

MR STRYDOM: Do you have the decease called asthma?

MR BUTHELEZI: Will the question please be repeated?

MR STRYDOM: I want to enquire about his health, about a decease called asthma, if he has got that decease?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, it is just a chest problem, not asthma.

MR STRYDOM: If you were not feeling ill on that particular day of the attack, would you have joined the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: On that night when the alarm was sounded, did you go to the stadium, or did you stay in your room?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not go, I remained in my room. I was even afraid of going outside, to avoid being exposed to the temperature outside.

MR STRYDOM: When the people returned from Boipatong, did you see them?

MR BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately I had fallen asleep, but I did hear Mr Khanyile coming in, because we share the same room.

MR STRYDOM: When did you establish some further detail about the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: I only heard the following morning information to the effect that the attack had been launched, but I must indicate that I only managed to gather more information from the news bulletins because I did not have time to discuss with those who had launched the attack. I went to town to buy some few things and I came back.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack, did Mr Themba Khoza come to the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, I saw him on a Friday and he was in the company of police. The white men was - there was a white man who was in charge of the police. They all came together.

MR STRYDOM: Did you at any stage hear Mr Khoza saying that loot that came from, and other property that came from Boipatong, should be burnt?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know Mr Vanana Zulu?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know the Prince.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if he was in the hostel on the 17th of June 1992?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, he was not at the hostel on that day. He had gone home to Natal. I think the attack was launched two or so days, after he had left.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Victor Mthembu, you already testified was your vice-Chairman on your committee. He testified here that he saw you in Boipatong, what do you say about that? That is on the night of the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: He was making a mistake, he assumed that because I was one of the leaders, I must have been present. That is a mistake.

MR STRYDOM: Were you aware of any hitsquads that were operating from the kwaMadala hostel under the leadership of Victor Keswa?

MR BUTHELEZI: I have no information about the hitsquads, I know nothing about that.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know that a certain amount of people, or what do you say about the allegation that a certain amount of people came from Umsinga just prior to the attack, to assist in the attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: There were no men, there was no contingent from Umsinga. There was no such a group of people. I spent a lot of time here, working in the Vaal. There was a lot of violence going on.

The one group of people from Umsinga, are the ones who came to Johannesburg with us, to work.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there people from Umsinga who were resident at the hostel, apart from you?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, there were, but there were not more than 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Keswa, where did he come from? Is that the same person as Keswa?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: You say he came from where?

MR BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, he is from Zone 7.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where his original home was?

MR BUTHELEZI: I do not know where he originates from, but I know him from the location, the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he associate himself with the people who came from Umsinga?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst we are referring to Victor Keswa, according to your knowledge, was he in the hostel on the 17th of June 1992?

MR BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, Mr Keswa was in prison. He had been arrested a few days before.

MR STRYDOM: The name Rubin, which would be a reference to Tebogo Rubin Magubane, was he from Umsinga?

MR BUTHELEZI: According to my knowledge, he is from Johannesburg, either from Tshiawelo or Masilela, but he is not from kwaZulu-Natal.

MR STRYDOM: And Lucky Stikenawu, was he from Umsinga?

MR BUTHELEZI: He is from Johannesburg, not kwaZulu Natal.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Themba Kubeka? Was he from Umsinga?

MR BUTHELEZI: No. The Themba Kubeka I know, also comes from Johannesburg. His home was at Small Farms.

MR STRYDOM: Sipho Thomas Lukhozi, is he a person from Umsinga?

MR BUTHELEZI: With reference to Sipho, I also know him to be from Johannesburg.

MR STRYDOM: The other applicants, Sipho Buthelezi, will still testify. Do you know if he is from Umsinga?

MR BUTHELEZI: I know that he was born and bred here in Johannesburg, from Zone 12.

MR STRYDOM: And Jack Mbele, or Dondo, he has already testified. Is he from Umsinga?

MR BUTHELEZI: I know him to be from Sharpville, not Umsinga.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I do not know him. I have never seen him before.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if he was part of the attack on Boipatong, as far as your knowledge goes?

MR BUTHELEZI: I first heard of his name, while I was in prison. I heard that he had come to the hostel on ANC instruction.

I do not have full details of what happened there, because I was already incarcerated, in prison, by then, but I do not know that person. As a youth leader, if he had been in the hostel whilst I was there, I would know him because every youth person, any person who was at that level, was brought to me and I would have records of such a person, so I would know him if he was at the hostel at the time.

MR STRYDOM: According to your records, was Mr Nosenga at the hostel on the 17th of June 1992? Can I add something, your records and your recollection?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I do not have any records.

MR STRYDOM: You were convicted in the criminal court, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And the Court found that you were in Boipatong on the night of the attack, was that a correct finding?

MR BUTHELEZI: The Court insisted that I had been present in the attack, although I tried to explain that I did not take part because of ill health. That is why I was convicted.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions. Sorry, I in fact have got, I forgot about something, sorry.

Do you or did you know a person by the name of Nomvula?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did know that person, although I was not close to her.

MR STRYDOM: And did you hear what happened to her?

MR BUTHELEZI: I heard that she was burnt.

MR STRYDOM: Was that before the attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes. That is true.

MR STRYDOM: Mr David Mbele, did you know him?

MR BUTHELEZI: I heard about him. I did not know the people of Tserela very well.

MR STRYDOM: And Mr Khumalo? Sorry, can I just ask you, you said you heard something about Mr Mbele, what did you hear about him?

MR BUTHELEZI: I heard that he had been killed.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Khumalo, Mr B.L. Khumalo?

MR BUTHELEZI: I knew Mr Khumalo and I also heard that he had been burnt and killed.

MR STRYDOM: Did you know a Mr Elias Sebiya who was staying in Boipatong and his address was 2202 Sihiso Street?

MR BUTHELEZI: I knew of a certain Sebiya, whose car had been burnt down and he was assaulted and he had to be hospitalised.

I am not sure whether you are referring to the very same one that I do know.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Pretorius?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS: Mr Buthelezi, did Themba Khoza come to the hostel often to address meetings, or was it only on special occasions?

MR BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, he did not frequent the hostel, unless there was something that he had to inform us about, that is on political matters.

MS PRETORIUS: After the attack, was he at the hostel only once during that week, or twice? Will you know that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question?

MS PRETORIUS: After the attack, did he come to the hostel during that week, once or twice?

MR BUTHELEZI: According to my knowledge, he came twice. He came on a Friday and he also returned midweek when the police had cordoned off the hostel.

We requested him to come and negotiate with the police that we should be able to go out and buy ourselves food and necessary things that we needed at the hostel.

MS PRETORIUS: Were you aware that there was a decision that all the loot from Boipatong had to be burnt?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I mentioned before, that I went to town early the following morning. I did not get to hear of that information.

MS PRETORIUS: Did you know Victor Keswa?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know him.

MS PRETORIUS: Was he a member of the Youth Brigade?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he was.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know whether he went out into the townships to shoot people?

MR BUTHELEZI: I do not have any information to that effect. What I can explain is that there were no set times regarding the movements of the people in or out of the hostel, people were free to move as they pleased.

MS PRETORIUS: The day to day business of the Youth League, was it run by all eight members of the Youth League leadership or was there a smaller committee, who did the everyday work of the Youth Brigade?

MR BUTHELEZI: If for instance, we were to have a meeting, we would meet as a committee to formulate an agenda.

MS PRETORIUS: Did the police, before the attack on Boipatong, did any police come and talk to the residents of kwaMadala? Was there a meeting addressed by the police at kwaMadala before this attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: The police usually came to search the hostel. They never came to address us on any matter.

MS PRETORIUS: Did you know Mr Peens from the police, Pedro Peens?

MR BUTHELEZI: I do not know that person. I would not even be able to identify him.

MS PRETORIUS: Did Themba Khoza ever address a meeting where white policemen also addressed the meeting, before the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: As it pleases you Mr Chairman. Mr Buthelezi, you testified that you heard an alarm on the 17th of June and I gather the reason for the alarm was for the people to gather at the stadium. Can you say what time you heard this more or less?

MR BUTHELEZI: I think it was around eight o'clock in the evening.

MR DA SILVA: You say that Mr Khanyile came into the room. Was this before or after the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: When the alarm rang, he went out for a very long time. Although I could not have looked at my watch, but he was gone for quite a long time.

MR DA SILVA: When Mr Khanyile was in the room, can you estimate what time this was more or less?

MR BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately I did not look at the watch, because I was not well.

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes Ma'am?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: Do you have records of all the members of the Youth Brigade?

MR BUTHELEZI: At the time I did have a list of everyone. Unfortunately when the police were investigating this matter, they confiscated all those records, and they were never returned to me.

MS TANZER: Could you say that you knew every single member of the Youth Brigade?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did know them, but there were many members and I was not with them all the time, but there are some that I do remember.

MS TANZER: How many members would you say that there approximately were at the time of the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately I cannot give a figure, because there were many.

The book of records would be the one to actually give an exact number.

MS TANZER: Could you say though that every IFP member or Youth Brigade member, was carrying a card? Did he have to carry a certain card to be a member?

MR BUTHELEZI: A Youth Brigade member had to have a card, so that we would also be certain that he indeed was a member.

MS TANZER: Are you certain that you do not know of a person known as Matanzima, maybe not Nosenga, but the name Matanzima, does that not ring a bell somewhere?

MR BUTHELEZI: I do not know that name. I heard of that Matanzima when I was in prison, in the Pretoria prison.

MS TANZER: If Matanzima would give evidence that he was carrying a card, that he was a card carrying member, would you accept that he was a member of the IFP at the time?

MR BUTHELEZI: Before my arrest, I would dispute that he was a card carrying member, because I have never met him, I do not know him.

MS TANZER: But you just said that you didn't know everybody because there were too many people to know? No comment?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I have already explained, that I do not know that name. I just heard of him later.

He would have to show or give evidence of when and how he joined the organisation. Secondly I am not the person who was responsible for signing up new members. That was the Secretary's job.

My job was to see to it that every member carried their card.

MS TANZER: How could you dispute whether he was a member or not, wouldn't the Secretary be able to confirm that?

MR BUTHELEZI: What I dispute is that I have never seen nor heard of the name Matanzima before my arrest.

MS TANZER: Do you know of any ANC members who would join the IFP at the hostel, and then how would you treat such members if they joined?

MR BUTHELEZI: If a person wanted to join the IFP, we would question his background, and he would have to explain where he comes from.

We would accept new members because we were on a recruiting drive.

MS TANZER: According to Matanzima in his statement, he tells, he says that when he left and joined the hostel, you were at first suspicious but then after a while, your suspicions were allayed and you accepted him in the Brigade.

CHAIRPERSON: When Nosenga says you, is he referring specifically to this witness or to the hostel residents in general?

MS TANZER: Mr Chairperson, I would expect that he was referring to the committee, either the committee or the Youth Brigade itself, who would accept him as a member.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your instructions in that regard?

MS TANZER: I have no instructions except that he says that he was accepted after some time of suspicion.

We will get further evidence from him in this regard, anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer Mr Buthelezi?

MR BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat the question?

MS TANZER: Are you aware of any ANC members that joined the IFP, and how would they be treated once they joined?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought the question that you have just asked is the question, what you were putting to him is that Nosenga says in his statement that when he came to the hostel, they were first suspicious. Isn't that the question that you wanted to put?

MS TANZER: That is the question, I apologise Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. That is the question that you should put to him. I put it to you that Matanzima at first, when he joined, you were suspicious or the party was suspicious of him, according to him, and after a while, the suspicions were allayed, and he was accepted as a full fledged member of the IFP party.

MR BUTHELEZI: As I have already mentioned it before, I do not know him. Maybe he joined the organisation after my arrest.

MS TANZER: You mentioned that your life was in danger. How was your life directly in danger at the time prior to the attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: My life was in danger in relation to the ANC's attack on Inkatha members. I always had to be on the lookout for the ANC, be it at the taxi's or anywhere.

Even though I was not written Inkatha all over my face, but they could have easily recognised me. My life was in danger for a very long time, from 1990 right up to the time when the violence subsided.

MS TANZER: However, you were not afraid to go to the shops the day after the attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was afraid, but I was then forced by circumstances. I had to go out and buy food. I had to accompany people who were on their way to work, so as to get out of the hostel and buy food.

MS TANZER: You mentioned that there was an ANC programme to eliminate IFP members. What was such a programme, how were you aware of such a programme?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I am explaining that this was the programme of the ANC wherein the IFP was attacked all over the place.

It was their campaign to burn and kill members of the IFP. That is why I am saying so.

MS TANZER: Where did the Youth Brigade get its money from? You mentioned a Treasurer, where would they collect monies from?

MR BUTHELEZI: Here I am referring to the structures of the IFP when I am talking about the Treasurer. For example we would raise money by way of contributions from the members within and these monies would then be used accordingly.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your standard of education?

MR BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately I have never been to a classroom situation.

MS TANZER: You mentioned that the meeting that you attended prior to the attack, all right, at this meeting, was the attack discussed in detail?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: In your opinion would you say that the attack itself, was just a random attack or was it well planned?

MR BUTHELEZI: The attack happened randomly on that day. People were driven by anger and they therefore had to do exactly that, attack. But nobody had planned beforehand what was going to happen on that day.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that Matanzima Nosenga is going to give evidence that in fact this attack was planned, that he was part of the planning, he was part of the crowd when it was planned for, and that every detail was discussed?

MR BUTHELEZI: He can come forward with that information, but as far as I know, I did indicate that I have never seen him. I don't know him.

If he has that information, he should come forward and divulge that, the implication of the police, the killing of the people at Tserela, etc. I think if that is the case, he must have been captured in a photo shot by the police, if he was present.

MS TANZER: Were you aware of the IFP leadership's unwillingness or not being in favour of this attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: The leadership or the entire leadership of the IFP, have or the IFP as a whole, have a constitution which is opposed to the attack of people, but we as residents of kwaMadala hostel had been angered by the killing of so many of our members by the ANC here in the Vaal and we therefore decided as residents that these people from Tserela should be attacked.

Anything can go ahead and happen, that is how it happened.

MS TANZER: But my question was, were you aware that they were reluctant to proceed, they wanted to speak first to see if they could not communicate and discuss with the leaders of the Boipatong location before any attack took place?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know that the leadership of the IFP were opposed following the constitution of the organisation.

MS TANZER: You say you only learnt of the attack, the day after the attack? When the dwellers or the hostel residents came back, weren't they shouting, changing, singing, victorious, happy with what they had just done? Didn't you hear any noise, weren't you awaken by any sounds?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, there wasn't any such noise.

MS TANZER: Did the dwellers just come home and go back to sleep like nothing happened?

MR BUTHELEZI: I think so because I also heard my roommate or I only saw my roommate the following day, I didn't see him come in at night.

I did not hear any noise at all.

MS TANZER: Did anybody notice your absence from the attack and were you ever asked why you did not participate in the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I was not questioned at all. No one questioned me about that.

MS TANZER: Did Khanyile, your roommate not ask you where were you in the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: He was the one who knew that I was not well, seeing that he was my roommate.

MS TANZER: So he knew that you did not participate in the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MS TANZER: And Matanzima Nosenga is going to give evidence that in fact a meeting took place about two weeks before the attack, at which meeting members of the police, one Mr Peens and members, IFP leaders, all gave speeches. Can you confirm this?

MR BUTHELEZI: I know not of such a meeting.

MS TANZER: Nosenga is going to give evidence that at this meeting Themba Khoza and Mr Peens chaired the meeting, speeches were given by Matwana Zulu, one Darkie, Katheni and Dani. Does such a meeting ring a bell, do any of these people ring a bell to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, shouldn't you break the question so that he can respond properly? The first portion of the question relates to the fact that these individuals you have described, gave speeches and they chaired the meeting.

MS TANZER: I shall do that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so that he can respond properly.

MS TANZER: Are you aware of a meeting, or Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence that a meeting took place that was chaired by both Mr Peens, which is a member of the Murder and Robbery Squad and Themba Khoza. Are you aware of such a meeting?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: Did Themba Khoza chair any meeting two weeks prior to the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: He did not chair any meeting.

MS TANZER: Did he give a speech at any hearing or rally about two weeks prior to the attack?

CHAIRPERSON: At any what? At any hearing or rally?

MS TANZER: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, I saw him delivering a speech for the last time at a rally at Jabulani. That was the last time.

MS TANZER: You mentioned that a rally did take place about two weeks before the attack. Could you say who gave speeches at this rally or who spoke?

CHAIRPERSON: He talked of a meeting, didn't he?

MS TANZER: I did. I apologise I am using the word meeting, but I mean rally, hearing, a rally.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean the applicant, did the applicant not talk of a meeting which was approximately two weeks prior to the attack?

MS TANZER: He did.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you are referring to as a rally?

MS TANZER: I am, I am sorry, yes I am Mr Chairman. I am referring to the meeting. Are you aware of any other persons who gave a speech at the meeting two weeks prior to the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: The meeting that we had as far as I know, was a meeting that was not attended by people from outside. I did not see them.

MS TANZER: My question to you was, do you remember anybody who spoke at that meeting, besides Mr Khoza?

MR STRYDOM: He never said that Mr Khoza spoke at that meeting, he in fact said the last time he heard him speaking was at the rally at Jabulani.

MS TANZER: Who spoke at that meeting?

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me Ma'am. Please be very careful what you put to the witness, please try and put to the witness what he has said.

MS TANZER: Can you tell us who spoke at this meeting that was private?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, you spoke about a meeting that was held approximately two weeks prior to the attack, do you recall that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are being asked is, can you tell us who spoke at that meeting? Do you understand the question?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you want to ask?

MS TANZER: That is, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BUTHELEZI: Thembinkosi Khumalo, Chairperson of Inkatha, followed by Induna Mkhize. Those are the people who delivered speeches and we also had Matwana Zulu and local residents of the hostel itself.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence to the effect that he was at this meeting, and that at this meeting, he had heard Themba Khoza speak and Themba Khoza saying that a certain insect should be killed, referring to the Boipatong residents, due to a certain Inkatha member having been killed in a location. What is your comment to that?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is an error. I did not come across any such speech.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is also going to give evidence that Themba Khoza said at the meeting to kill the dogs, again referring to the Boipatong residents, because they were not human beings, and he said that the Indunas agreed with the statements of Themba Khoza?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did indicate that I know nothing about this, and resultantly I cannot give you an answer thereto. I don't know anything about this.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that Mr Nosenga is also going to give evidence to the effect that Mr Peens, or Sergeant Peens from the Police Force, spoke in Afrikaans, he also spoke at the meeting, and that it was translated.

MR BUTHELEZI: Again, I maintain that there is nothing that I can say about Nosenga. I did not come across such kind of a speech. I am here before this Commission to divulge the truth because I am not in court now. I am here before the Commission and therefore I have to tell everything I know.

I would have said the same about the Nosenga issue if I knew it. It is very difficult for me to start telling a lie now here.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence and has made a statement to the effect that Mr Peens agreed with Themba Khoza and also said that he would supply caspirs near the location.

MR BUTHELEZI: I would stick to the same response, I know nothing about that. Maybe he was communicating with Khoza, but really I have not heard of anything like that.

MS TANZER: Let me then just put it to you, what he will say is that Sergeant Peens and Dani also said that they would supply Rooikop with weapons and they would give them to Themba Khoza who would bring them to the hostel.

MR BUTHELEZI: That is an error. We did not have a problem with reference to weapons, because Qunchu was the one who was supplying us with firearms.

I don't know how this Peens story comes in here.

MS TANZER: Are you aware of a meeting that took place on about the 14th of June 1992?

MR BUTHELEZI: I do not remember, I don't know.

MS TANZER: Well Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence that a meeting did take place at the hostel, and at this meeting it was decided that an attack will take place on the 17th of June and at this meeting it was said that everybody should be killed, including women and children?

MR BUTHELEZI: I have already said that I do not remember any meeting held on that day. The one meeting that I remember was on the 13th, wherein we were addressing the issues pertaining to a rally that we had to attend at Jabulani, where we were to address the experiences of 1976 wherein we were shot by the Boers during the Black Power and therefore I know nothing about anything different from that.

MS TANZER: Finally, are you aware of any relationship between any member of the hostel and any member of the Police Force in the Vaal Triangle area? Were you aware of any kind of relationship of any sort?

MR BUTHELEZI: No. I have never seen anyone like that.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir. Mr Buthelezi, what is it that you ask this Committee to grant you amnesty for?

MR BUTHELEZI: I seek amnesty for the fact that I was charged for crimes pertaining to Tserela, that is the reason why I am here today.

It is also an attempt to clear my name to the community of Tserela, to explain that I did not take part in the attack.

MR MAPOMA: So you are applying for amnesty because you were found guilty in short?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: You did not kill anybody in Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you did not order any person to go and kill people in Boipatong on that day, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact, you were a member of the Youth Brigade of the IFP, whose duty it was to inform people about the policy of the IFP in the hostel, isn't that so?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact this action of killing people in Boipatong, was against the policy of the IFP? That is your evidence, isn't it so?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, do you associate yourself with the actions that was made, that of killing people in Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992?

MR BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question.

MR MAPOMA: Do you associate yourself with the act of killing people in Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992?

MR BUTHELEZI: I have already explained that I was one of those persons who had been angered by what the people of Tserela had been doing and I was also in favour of them being attacked because I did not understand why they were attacking us, because we were all fighting the same government, the apartheid government.

It was the aim of all of us to dismantle the apartheid government, therefore we decided that they should be attacked, because we were no longer free to carry out our activities as an organisation. We were now acting, we were now operating as a banned organisation.

MR MAPOMA: When you say you decided that they should be attacked, who do you refer to?

MR BUTHELEZI: Myself as a leader, the people, the residents of the hostel were complaining about the situation. As a leader you have a responsibility to look into people's complaints and take appropriate action.

As a leader, I realised that we were losing our members because they were now intimidated. I personally felt that the people of Tserela should be attacked. I even told my colleagues that these people should be attacked.

MR MAPOMA: When you say you decided, when was that relating to the date on which this incident occurred?

MR BUTHELEZI: With regards to the date, I am not in a position to specify it. My anger had been building up since the beginning of 1990 when the attacks began.

MR MAPOMA: Can you tell the Committee how many days before the actual attack, was that decision made?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want him to give us the specific date when he decided that the people of Boipatong must be attacked?

MR MAPOMA: Not necessarily the specific date Mr Chairperson, but I would like to know how many days before that attack took place, did they decide. I am asking this question Chairperson, because I want to find out whether he was part of the decision making process at all, he himself, as a person.

It is against that background that I am canvassing that point Chairperson, with respect.

MR BUTHELEZI: Although I cannot give you a specific date, I should explain that I discussed the matter with Mr Qunchu and suggested that they should be attacked.

When the decision was taken to launch the attack on the 17th, I was not able to take part because of my ill health.

If I had been part of the decision making process, they maybe could have postponed the date on my behalf, but they did not because I was not there when the decision to attack, was taken.

MR MAPOMA: In that meeting where you expressed your view that the attack be launched, where was Matwana Zulu?

MR BUTHELEZI: Matwana was not present. We were discussing this as leaders. It was a caucus of IFP leaders, but Matwana was not present.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, just one aspect that you didn't answer. You were asked can you tell us approximately when that happened, that meeting where the decision, or your discussion, the caucus where you made the decision, you were asked approximately when that happened? We don't want the exact date, if you can say was it a few days, a week, two weeks, etc, it would be helpful.

We are not talking about the meeting now, we are talking what you referred to as a caucus.

MR BUTHELEZI: It was about two or three weeks before the attack was launched.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, and who were members of that caucus, who were present in that caucus meeting?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was with Mr Damara, Mr Khumalo who was the then Chairperson of the IFP, as well as Mr Mkhize, who was the Induna at the time.

Those were the people I discussed with. It was not easy to discuss this with everyone, every member of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, I see that the time is about five to eleven. Do you want to start now, or would you prefer to start after tea?

MR BERGER: I can start after tea, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We will raise and return at half past eleven.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger, you may proceed.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, as I understand your evidence this morning, you became aware of a pending attack on Boipatong, some two or three weeks before the attack actually took place, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: In my evidence I mentioned that I also felt that the people of Boipatong should be attacked, but not that I knew of the decision two or three weeks before.

CHAIRPERSON: What Counsel is asking you is that in your evidence, you told us that approximately two weeks before the attack on Boipatong, you were aware that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong. Is that the question?

MR BERGER: That is the question yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did say so.

MR BERGER: You were asked the same question at page 50, paragraph 6. You were asked please give particulars of how and when you first came to know of a pending attack to be launched by the residents of kwaMadala. Do you remember that question?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: And your answer at page 54, paragraph 6 is, I knew nothing. Do you see that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Please repeat that, I don't think I understood you correctly.

MR BERGER: You were asked a question by the TRC before you came to give evidence. You were asked to give details about how and when you first came to know about a pending attack that was to be launched on Boipatong, and the answer which you gave at that time, was that you knew nothing.

Today you have come to this Committee and you have told this Committee that approximately two weeks before the attack on Boipatong, you knew that there was going to be an attack, that an attack was pending. How do you reconcile what you said to this Committee today, with your answers that I have just read to you?

MR BUTHELEZI: I would like to explain about this statement. Firstly, I was not aware of the process of the TRC. I later found out that you have to divulge the entire truth.

That is why at that time, I may not have supplied all the information that was relevant to the case, because I did not know what the process of the TRC was.

MR BERGER: No Mr Buthelezi, not only did you not supply all the information, but you actually told a lie. Were you not aware of the fact that you had to tell the TRC the truth, you thought you could lie, is that what you are saying?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I have explained, I did not have information on the TRC. I learnt when I came here, that you have to tell the whole truth. Such information I did not have when I actually wrote that statement.

I do accept and admit that what was written in the statement, was not true.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you understand the TRC to be functioning at the time when you gave this information?

MR BUTHELEZI: Because of the lack of information, I thought that I would not be in a position to divulge the entire truth.

MR BERGER: I am sorry, there was a whole piece of evidence that was not translated. There was a whole piece of evidence that wasn't translated, or it didn't come through to me.

INTERPRETER: He repeated what he had said before, that the process was not thoroughly explained to him, therefore he did not know that he could divulge the whole truth.

MR BERGER: When did you first decide to apply to the TRC for amnesty?

MR BUTHELEZI: Although I cannot be certain of the exact date, I think my Attorney would be in a better position to assist you with regards to the date.

MR BERGER: It was after your conviction, am I correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you decided that you needed to apply to the Amnesty Committee of the TRC so that your conviction could be set aside, would that be right?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And at the same time, you were going to appeal against your conviction to a higher Court, to the Appellate Division, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you told the Committee this morning that you are not in court now, you are before the Committee, so you have to tell the truth. Do you remember that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: Did you mean to imply by that, that in court you can lie, but before the TRC you can't lie?

MR BUTHELEZI: In court it is possible to lie, because you may deny the charges, even if you are rightfully charged. In my instance though, what I was denying, was something that I had not committed and the Judge, after all my explanation, insisted on convicting me for something I did not commit.

MR BERGER: So in court you told the truth?

MR BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, yes, I did tell the truth in court.

MR BERGER: And when you decided to apply for amnesty, you were prepared to tell the truth?

MR BUTHELEZI: When I applied for amnesty, yes, my intention was to tell the truth, but as I have explained before, I did not know what the functions and the process of the TRC was.

MR BERGER: And for that reason, you told a lie?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I have just explained to you, the reason why I said what I said was because of the lack of knowledge that I had.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that you realised that the case you have set out about not being aware of the attack, knowing nothing about the attack, not participating in the attack, you realise you can't get amnesty for that? Isn't that correct?

Because to get amnesty, you have to have done something wrong. I have explained Mr Berger, that the lack of information with regards to the TRC, prevented me from divulging the information that I have just divulged today.

I do not know what else should I tell you.

MR BERGER: Just to finish the point I was making, so you now involve yourself in discussions about the attack, so that you can get amnesty. Isn't that what you are doing?

MR BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you is this, you knew that in order to get amnesty, you must have done something wrong. Do you understand that?

MR BUTHELEZI: What I knew was that I had to seek amnesty for the crimes that we were charged and convicted for.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is being put to you further is that because on your version, namely that you did not do anything as you said in court, you knew that you could not get amnesty for that, do you understand that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is now why it is being put to you, you are somewhat belatedly telling this Commission that you were somehow involved in the decision to attack Boipatong because you want to tell this Committee that you did something wrong, so that you can get amnesty. Is that the gist of what you want to put to this witness?

MR BERGER: That is exactly the point, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Do you understand that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do understand, although it is not true. I have told the truth before this Committee that I was involved in the planning.

MR BERGER: All right. You were also asked at page 50, paragraph 7 the following question, did the Steering Committee discuss the pending attack and if so, please supply the particulars of such discussions, including the dates.

You know about the Steering Committee at kwaMadala hostel, do you?

MR BUTHELEZI: I would just like to explain about the committees that were in existence at kwaMadala hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us about those committees.

MR BUTHELEZI: There was a committee that was tasked with ensuring the welfare of the residents. This committee consisted of Mr Mthembu, Mr Kumane, Mr Ntuli as well as Shohesa and Mr Mkwanazi.

MR BERGER: Please continue?

MR BUTHELEZI: The senior committee of the IFP was comprised of Thembinkosi Khumalo who was the Chairperson, his assistant was Richard Nqumalo. It was Richard Ndwandwe.

MR BERGER: Are you correcting yourself, I am just not clear?

CHAIRPERSON: Continue.

MR BUTHELEZI: The Secretary was Mr Jerome Zungu.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Zuma or Zungu?

MR BUTHELEZI: Zuma. I am not sure whether it is Zuma or Zungu. Zuma. His assistant was Mr Qunchu, Damara Qunchu.

The Treasurer was Mr Ngobesi and his assistant was Buthelezi, Zwayinga Buthelezi. The Publicity Officer was Gasu, I forgot his first name. I have forgotten the others and our record books were also confiscated.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger - you have only mentioned two committees. Are those the only committees that existed at the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was Mthembu's committee, the youth committee and the senior committee as well as a committee that was tasked with arranging funerals. There were four committees in total.

CHAIRPERSON: You were busy telling us about those committees. You have only told us about the two, what is the third one?

MR BUTHELEZI: With regards to the funeral committee, there were two members in that committee, it was Mr Vincent Khanyile and a Mr Mbungosi, whose first name I have forgotten.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there is the fourth committee.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Buthelezi. It is the youth committee Mr Chairperson.

MR BUTHELEZI: The fourth committee was the youth committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR BERGER: Thank you. Now, you say there were four committees in total at kwaMadala, is that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: How many of those committees were part of the IFP structures in the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: There were two committees that were part of those structures.

MR BERGER: And they were which committees?

MR BUTHELEZI: The senior committee, the Chairperson being Thembinkosi Khumalo and the youth committee of which I was the Chairperson.

MR BERGER: And besides those two committees, were there any other IFP structures at kwaMadala?

MR BUTHELEZI: According to my knowledge, these were the only two structures of the organisation. That is disregarding the Women Brigade.

MR BERGER: Okay. I have asked you about this question which was put to you about the Steering Committee and in fairness to you, I must just tell you that the Steering Committee is the committee that you describe as being the Welfare Committee, that is the committee of Mr Moses Mthembu.

You were asked whether that committee had discussed the pending attack and your answer at page 55, paragraph 7, is I have no knowledge of their discussions.

Is that answer true?

MR BUTHELEZI: It is true for the reason that I was not aware whether they had any information with regards to the impending attack.

MR BERGER: What you deliberately left out of this reply is that you had knowledge of other discussions of other committees about the pending attack, would that be right?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did mention the names of the people with whom I discussed the matter.

MR BERGER: Okay. Your committee, the youth committee, from whom did you take instructions?

MR BUTHELEZI: My instructions came from the constitution of the organisation as well as from Mr Themba Khoza who was the Chairperson, the Regional Chairperson of the Youth Brigade in the Transvaal.

MR BERGER: Are you familiar with the constitution of the IFP?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know. I am familiar with it, although I cannot claim to know everything.

MR BERGER: I am not going to ask you everything, but at the time of the attack, June 1992, you were familiar with the terms and the provisions of the IFP constitution, is that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did.

MR BERGER: And would it be fair to say that your committee, the youth committee as well as the senior committee of the IFP in the hostel, both those committees were familiar with the terms and provisions of the IFP's constitution?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, they were familiar with those provisions.

MR BERGER: Who was the overall leader of kwaMadala hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: Let me explain again that kwaMadala hostel was differentiated into us being Zulu's and also as IFP members.

Prince Vanana Zulu was the most senior person in as far as the fact that he was the leader of the Zulu's, he was our leader as Zulu's.

MR BERGER: Would it be fair to say that any major decision involving the residents of kwaMadala hostel, would have to be taken in consultation with Prince Vanana Zulu?

MR BUTHELEZI: It depended on the nature of those decisions. If they did not concern him, decisions could be taken in his absence.

MR BERGER: Can you think of any major decision that could be taken without the blessing of Prince Vanana Zulu?

MR BUTHELEZI: If the IFP held meetings, we would sometimes discuss and agree to go on rallies in the Prince's absence. Such matters that effected Zulu's directly at the hostel, would not be discussed without the Prince's presence.

MR BERGER: You were asked the question at page 50, question 4, who was the leader of the senior men in the kwaMadala hostel and your answer at page 54, paragraph 4, Prince Vanana Zulu. Do you confirm that?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I have explained before, Matwana Zulu was a leader of the Zulu's in the Vaal area.

Even at the hostel, he was afforded the utmost respect. Even on occasions when we went out on rallies, we would inform him of these because of the respect we held for him, not because he had to take the decision.

MR BERGER: And if Prince Vanana Zulu was informed about some course of conduct that the residents of kwaMadala hostel were going to embark upon, and if he said no, I don't want you to do that, would he be obeyed?

MR BUTHELEZI: In most instances, as I have just explained, that we afforded him respect, we would have respected that opinion.

If there was a need not to, if there was circumstances compelling us not to, then we may have not respected his opinion.

MR BERGER: As far as the IFP were concerned in the hostel, would I be correct to say on your evidence, that the leader of the IFP in the hostel, would be Mr Khumalo?

MR BUTHELEZI: As far as I am concerned, yes, that is true.

MR BERGER: And in his absence, it would be Mr Ndwandwe?

MR BUTHELEZI: As his assistant, yes, he would be the one.

MR BERGER: What was the position with regard to the residents of kwaMadala hostel and membership of the IFP? Was it synonymous, was every resident of the kwaMadala hostel a member of the IFP, or were there residents who were not IFP members?

MR BUTHELEZI: Briefly, at that time, we could not afford to reside with people who were not members of the IFP.

Every person who resided in the hostel at the time, was a member of the IFP.

MR BERGER: Every member who was a resident of the hostel, had to become a member of the IFP, is that what you are saying?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Where is Mr Khumalo today?

MR BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately he is deceased.

MR BERGER: Where was he on the 17th of June 1992, was he at the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: I do not remember whether he was present or not on the 17th, because of the situation of my health. I cannot remember whether he was there or not.

MR BERGER: I won't limit you to the 17th, in the week or two weeks before the 17th, say from the 10th to the 17th of June, was Mr Khumalo at the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: He used to work at ISCOR, therefore I would assume that he was present.

MR BERGER: And the same can be said for Mr Richard Ndwandwe, would that be correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he is also an employee of ISCOR.

MR BERGER: And you would assume that he was present at the hostel in the days before the attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: I cannot be absolutely certain, because he used to work shifts but I think that he was.

MR BERGER: You think that he was present?

MR BUTHELEZI: I will say that I do not know, but I did not see him.

MR BERGER: The meetings that you attended prior to the attack, if I understand you correctly, there was a meeting, there was a caucus some two or three weeks before the attack, where you say you were there, Mr Khumalo, Damara Qunchu and Mr Mkhize, the four of you were part of this caucus, and that was where you decided that there should be an attack on Boipatong. Would that be correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is what I said, but we did not take a concrete decision, although our opinion was that this attack should be carried out, but no concrete decision was taken.

MR BERGER: Well Mr Buthelezi, I want you please to be clear on this point, because it effects your application. Are you saying that at that caucus the idea of an attack on Boipatong was discussed, but no decision was taken that Boipatong would be attacked at that meeting?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: When that caucus ended, there were no plans to set in motion an attack on Boipatong, at some time in the future? Are you with me?

I want you to be clear, I am not suggesting that at that caucus, an actual date was set to attack Boipatong, because as I understand your evidence, no date was set at that stage, correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Mr Berger, I will explain this again. When we held this caucus meeting, we did not take a decision, but in my mind, it was clear what we should do.

I would have planned it after the final decision had been taken, but the decision was not taken on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that at that caucus, all the persons who were there, expressed the opinion that there should be an attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we agreed that they should be attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: But no decision was taken that there will be an attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, it was not taken.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR BERGER: Well Mr Buthelezi, I don't understand that answer at all. You initially said before the Judge asked you the question, you said in my mind I thought that Boipatong should be attacked. Now you are saying that you actually said at that meeting, I think that Boipatong should be attacked?

Did you actually say at the meeting I think that Boipatong should be attacked, did you say that?

MR BUTHELEZI: I don't understand your question properly. When I gave the explanation on the caucus meeting, I did say that my mind was made up that we should attack because our people were being burnt, killed daily. That was the reason why we held that caucus meeting, to discuss the situation and what steps to take.

Because of the anger that was inside me, I had decided, I had taken that decision that there should be an attack.

MR BERGER: All right, what did you say at that caucus? Not what was in your head, what did you actually say at that caucus?

MR BUTHELEZI: What I expressed was that we are leaders and people complain to us, the situation is clear, we should try - decide what steps should be taken to prevent this from continuing.

MR BERGER: So you never mentioned an attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: I don't know how to explain this to you Mr Berger.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, when you speak, would you please speak slowly so that the Interpreter can interpret everything that you say. There is some of the things that are not interpreted because you speak fast. Be slow.

MR BUTHELEZI: I will try to do so.

MR BERGER: My question Mr Buthelezi was, what did you say at the caucus? You have told the Committee that you said we need to do something, the people are angry. Is that all that you said or did you say something more?

MR BUTHELEZI: What I said was that we should do something. I did not say anything else. We were agreed that these people should be attacked.

MR BERGER: But you never mentioned an attack, you said we should do something? You didn't mention an attack, right?

MR BUTHELEZI: I have been explaining the same thing Mr Berger, the fact that we made a reference to the effect that they should be attacked, meant that there would be an attack.

MR LAX: I think just to be fair, you are speaking very vaguely now Mr Buthelezi. Mr Berger is asking you to be particular, to be careful because he is saying that it is important to you.

That is why he is covering this thing carefully with you. If he is asking you did you say that there must be an attack or did you just say that we must do something about the situation, there is a difference between the two and you need to be clear to all of us so that you can help us understand what you actually did at that caucus. Do you understand?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: Try and be particular if possible, which will help all of us and we will get through this thing a lot quicker.

MR BUTHELEZI: I will try to explain. I did express the opinion that they should be attacked in the caucus. Yes, I did express that opinion that they should be attacked.

ADV SIGODI: I just want to get some clarity on this point. At that caucus, were you discussing particularly the people in Boipatong or were you discussing the situation in the whole Vaal Triangle?

MR BUTHELEZI: At that caucus, we were discussing Tserela township because it had become difficult to go anywhere because of the situation that was happening at that time.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Buthelezi. I now understand from your evidence at that caucus, when you talk about Tserela, you are referring to Boipatong, that at that caucus you expressed a desire that Boipatong should be attacked at some time soon, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And the others present at that meeting, each and every one of them, Mr Qunchu, Mr Khumalo and Mr Mkhize, agreed with you and you agreed with them, that Boipatong should be attacked some time soon?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes. As I mentioned before, they did not dispute what I was suggesting, therefore yes, they accepted that opinion that we should attack.

MR BERGER: Very shortly after that, there was a mass meeting of hostel residents, do you remember the one that was held approximately two weeks before the attack, roundabout the 3rd of June 1992, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I mentioned before, I know of a meeting that were held on the 13th, to discuss the rally that was going to be held at Jabulani.

MR BERGER: Just bear with me for a moment. Do you remember giving evidence about a meeting, a mass meeting that was addressed by amongst others, Prince Vanana Zulu?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, just to be fair to the witness, was that - the evidence that he gave, was that here or was it at some other forum?

MR BERGER: No it was here, I think when my learned friend, Ms Tanzer was questioning the witness. Yes, the question was about a meeting two weeks before the attack, and Mr Buthelezi said that at that meeting Mr Mkhize spoke, Mr Khumalo spoke and Mtwana Zulu spoke. Do you remember that meeting Mr Buthelezi?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do remember that meeting.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that that meeting was approximately two weeks before the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: Although I cannot be certain of the date, I would not be in a position to explain that.

MR BERGER: Well, when do you think it was approximately?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I have just explained, the meeting that I still remember quite well, is the one that took place on the 13th, to discuss our trip to Johannesburg. This other meeting where the Prince addressed the meeting, I cannot really recall the date on which it took place.

MR BERGER: This meeting on the 13th, that wasn't the meeting that was addressed by Prince Vanana Zulu, was it?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, it was not that same one.

MR BERGER: It was before that meeting that Prince Vanana Zulu spoke?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is true.

MR BERGER: But it was after the caucus decision, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: I will not be able to tell about the timing. When we held that caucus meeting, we did not record that.

MR BERGER: Okay. When was the decision taken that now there is going to be an attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did explain that I heard the alarm going off on the 17th. Ii do not know when the decision, the actual decision to attack, was taken.

MR BERGER: Let me refer you to page 47 of the papers, paragraph 11(b). You said in your application that and I am translating from the Afrikaans, an instruction was given by leaders of the IFP living at the kwaMadala hostel on approximately the 10th and the 17th of June 1992, that Boipatong must be attacked.

What I am telling you is that in your own application you say that on approximately the 10th of June 1992, there was this instruction that Boipatong must be attacked. At what meeting was that instruction issued?

MR BUTHELEZI: When I refer to the leadership of the IFP, I was actually referring to us, myself and Mr Khumalo. As I have just explained we held a caucus meeting, I do not remember us taking this idea forward to the other residents, that we should attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: There is a difference between a decision and an order and you say that an order was given on approximately the 10th of June 1992. What I am putting to you is that an order was given before the attack, days before the attack on Boipatong, an order was given to residents that they were going to attack, a decision had been taken to attack Boipatong.

Do you dispute that?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I explained before, I may have written this which was a mistake. As I mentioned before, I did not have knowledge on the process of the TRC and since realising that I have to divulge the entire truth, I have furnished the information on the caucus meeting that we had.

MR BERGER: The difficulty that I have with your answer Mr Buthelezi is that your Counsel this morning, when he led you and got you to confirm these documents, said that these documents had been explained to you yet again and yet you confirmed them, yet again.

It doesn't help you to say that you decided now to tell the truth, because even this morning you were confirming documents that you say contain mistakes.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that was true at the time, because I signed, I appended my signature.

MR BERGER: You made certain changes this morning to those documents, I remember one, the date being changed. You made another change when you said with reference to your family being killed in Boipatong, you said no, it wasn't your family that was killed in Boipatong, it was IFP members who were being killed in Boipatong, do you remember that?

You made changes, but you didn't change the points that I am now pointing out to you?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I remember. With regards to what you are referring to now, I am trying to explain that I wrote the statements under those circumstances where I was not aware ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think Counsel is aware of your explanation for that, what Counsel wants to know is this, when you were giving your evidence in chief, you corrected certain information which were contained in your statement.

If these are the matters to which he has drawn your attention, were mistakes - what he wants to find out is, why didn't you correct them at the same time when you were correcting the others? Is that what you want to find out Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: It is Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes. It was a mistake for me not to correct this inaccuracies.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that the documents that you were referred to this morning, have recently been explained to you yet again?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, my Attorney did explain.

MR BERGER: By the 14th of June 1992, even on your version in your application, a decision had been taken, an order had been given to attack Boipatong. On that Sunday, is it correct that Mr Themba Khoza visited kwaMadala hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not see him.

MR BERGER: Your deputy, Mr Victor Mthembu, says that Mr Themba Khoza did visit the hostel, in fact addressed a meeting of all the residents in the hostel. You were there, you must have attended that meeting Mr Buthelezi?

MR BUTHELEZI: Mr Berger, I think Victor made a mistake. I would not have been able to see Mr Khoza if I was absent. I would have seen him if I was present at the hostel at the time.

MR BERGER: You say there was a meeting at the hostel on the 13th? Mr Mthembu says there was a meeting at the hostel on the 14th. Whichever date that meeting took place, whether it was on the Saturday or the Sunday, Themba Khoza attended that meeting, do you dispute that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes. I would, but I would also explain what we were discussing at the meeting of the 13th. Can I just explain this?

MR BERGER: You were discussing as you have told the Committee already, the June 16 rally that you were going to attend, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: I am talking about a meeting where Themba Khoza was there, Mr Dlamini was there, the problems that the hostel residents were facing, were discussed. You say there was no such meeting?

MR BUTHELEZI: I thank you for that question. I will just like to explain with regards to Mr Keswa's statement, Mr Victor Mthembu's statement.

Mr Dlamini was a representative of the kwaZulu government. As far as I know, he came to us when we were in prison in October. The person who was present when the Boipatong incident took place, was Mr Velazi, who was the then representative, at the time.

MR BERGER: Mr Mvelazi?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, it was Mr Velazi.

MR BERGER: Did he come and address the hostel residents on the Sunday before the massacre?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I explained before, I do not know anything about that meeting, and I did not see him.

He did not frequent the hostel. If he wanted to communicate anything to us, he would normally call us to his place.

MR BERGER: You say in your further particulars at page 53, paragraph 2.3, that as leader of the youth, I used to take orders from the Johannesburg office or from the leader, who stayed in the kwaMadala hostel. Do you confirm that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes. I have already explained that Mr Khoza was the Regional Chairperson in the Transvaal.

MR BERGER: And that is the person that you took orders from, from the Johannesburg office, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I received my instructions from Mr Khoza.

MR BERGER: Who was the leader that you referred to, that stayed at the kwaMadala hostel, that you took orders from?

MR BUTHELEZI: The leader I was referring to, was Mr Khumalo, the Chairperson of the IFP at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Did you discuss the decision to attack Boipatong with Mr Themba Khoza?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was not easy to discuss such a matter with Mr Khoza, because I knew that the policies of the IFP were against the decision.

MR BERGER: Did you discuss the decision to attack Boipatong with your deputy, Mr Mthembu?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not discuss it with Mr Mthembu because he was a young fellow with whom I could not discuss such a matter.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I have explained, that we had a caucus meeting, I felt it important that I should discuss that matter with mature individuals, who were the leaders.

MR BERGER: So here was something that you say all the residents of the hostel were crying out for, an attack on Boipatong, and yet you didn't even discuss the attack or the decision to attack, with your own deputy? Is that your evidence?

MR BUTHELEZI: I am trying to explain that if you were a leader, it is not easy to divulge sensitive information to a person that you do not trust completely.

Such a person may misuse that information. Therefore I was not in a position to discuss that matter with him.

MR BERGER: You say that there was a political war between the hostel residents and ANC sympathisers in the townships, the townships of the Vaal, is that what you said?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is true.

MR BERGER: As one of the senior leaders, would I be correct if I said that you were aware of what was happening politically in the country at that time?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was familiar with what was happening politically in the country, because I used to listen to the radio bulletins.

MR BERGER: You knew about the political negotiations at CODESA that were taking place?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was aware of the negotiations that were taking place.

MR BERGER: You also knew that the political violence in the Vaal really took off on the 22nd of July 1990, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct because I was also present when it erupted.

MR BERGER: And that 22 July 1990, coincides with the date of the first IFP rally in the Transvaal, am I right, or in the Vaal, let me say in the Vaal?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You know Mr Victor Mthembu talks about the 40 or 50 men who came from Umsinga, who fomented violence in the townships of the Vaal and who stayed at kwaMadala, you have heard that evidence?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did hear him giving that evidence, but I regarded it as a mistake.

MR BERGER: And you also know about the activities of - or the alleged activities of Mr Victor Keswa and his gang?

MR BUTHELEZI: I heard about it here. I did explain that at the hostel, no one was restricted in their movements.

I was not aware about what they did when they left the hostel. I also minded my own business.

Therefore with regards to Victor Keswa, I am not aware of what activities he did outside of the hostel.

MR BERGER: And you never listened to the allegations on the radio, so you are not aware at all of that?

MR BUTHELEZI: There were many allegations that were levelled against Victor Keswa. He was accused of being a hitsquad member.

There was an incident that happened in Zone 7, he was alleged to have been the person responsible for that attack, but the truth is that at that time, he was in hospital, in (indistinct). That is where he was hospitalised.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct Mr Buthelezi that the political war that you speak about, was an IFP strategy to destabilise the townships of the Vaal for political purposes?

Isn't that the war that you speak about?

MR BUTHELEZI: Let me just explain about the rally that was held in Zone 7. Maybe you would understand the facts better.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, the question has just been put to you, answer that question. You can explain thereafter what you want to explain, but answer the question first.

MR BUTHELEZI: As far as I am aware, the IFP was not employing any strategy to perpetuate violence.

MR BERGER: And isn't it correct that the attack on Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992, was part of that strategy of the IFP to foment such violence in the townships of the Vaal, that the political negotiations themselves, would come to a standstill? Wasn't that the whole point of the attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: You do know I take it, that that was the result of the attack on Boipatong, that the political negotiations in fact came to a standstill?

MR BUTHELEZI: I heard about it, that the ANC withdrew from the negotiations because of that incident.

MR BERGER: And isn't it so that the IFP feared that the political negotiations would lead to a deal between the ANC and the government, that the IFP would be excluded from the deal and that by fomenting this violence, the IFP established itself as a major player in the Transvaal? Isn't that what this was all about?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is not true Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that this attack on Boipatong, had absolutely nothing to do with the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR BUTHELEZI: It had nothing to do with the IFP at senior leadership levels, but on the ground, yes, it had to do with the IFP in the sense that it had to do with residents of the hostel.

MR BERGER: But you have told the Committee that the action, the attack on Boipatong was contrary to the policy of the IFP, whether at national level or at grassroots level, isn't that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did say so.

MR BERGER: Did you know that Prince Vanana Zulu was against an attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was not aware of that because he had not discussed it with me.

MR BERGER: You heard Mr Mkhize yesterday saying that Prince Vanana Zulu was against the attack? You say you don't know about that.

If I put it to you that Prince Vanana Zulu was in fact part of the attack, can you dispute that?

MR BUTHELEZI: I would dispute it, because he was not present at that time.

I used to stay in a room near the gate, so I would see him if he was inside the yard, but at that time, he was absent.

Around those days, he was not at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Yes, you said he left about three days before the attack, is that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee that you know that Prince Vanana Zulu was not there, because he left the hostel to go home about three days before the attack, is that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: He was away, he had gone home. Although I cannot remember exactly when before the attack did he leave.

MR BERGER: At his evidence at the criminal trial, Prince Vanana Zulu said that he left kwaMadala hostel on the 5th of June 1992, almost two weeks before the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: Although I cannot be absolutely certain, I cannot be too sure about the exact date on which he left, he would have better knowledge thereof.

MR BERGER: But you say he was present when meetings were held with the residents of the hostel to discuss a potential attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: I do not remember having said that he was present in those meetings.

MR BERGER: Yes, I have a direct note of your evidence here, you said Vanana Zulu was not at the hostel that day, the attack was launched two or so days after he left?

You were asked whether Victor Keswa was in the hostel on the 17th of June 1992, and you said no, he had been arrested two days before. Can I take it that you had a keen interest in Victor Keswa, you knew him well and you followed what was happening to him?

MR BUTHELEZI: I knew Victor Keswa because he was in the Youth Brigade.

MR BERGER: And you were aware of the fact when he died, am I right?

MR LAX: Just stop for a second. Just stop, hold on. Sorry Interpreters, the man said something about Vanderbijl, it wasn't interpreted. Please you've got to try and tell us everything he is saying.

Can you just repeat your answer to the previous question, you were talking about Victor Keswa and you said something about knowing him and then you went on to say something about the Youth Brigade and Vanderbijl and it wasn't interpreted. Please just repeat that part.

MR BUTHELEZI: I said I knew Victor Keswa. At the time when the incident happened, he was in Vanderbiljpark in prison, he had been arrested a few days before.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR BERGER: When he died, were you informed?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I heard about it.

MR BERGER: And did you hear about who was allegedly responsible for his death?

MR BUTHELEZI: Although I cannot be certain, it was alleged that he had been killed by the police.

MR BERGER: And which policeman had allegedly killed him? Which policeman had allegedly been involved in his death?

MR BUTHELEZI: I have said that I cannot specify who exactly was responsible. I am not even aware who was the Investigating Officer.

Therefore I cannot point out who exactly was that policeman. What I learnt was that he was alleged to have been killed by the police.

MR BERGER: And Mr Themba Mabote, you heard that he too was alleged to have been killed by the police, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I heard that he was allegedly killed by the police. I heard that he actually jumped out of a police van, a police vehicle.

MR BERGER: And you don't know the name of the policeman who was allegedly involved in his death?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I am aware of the fact that it is passed one, I am trying to finish. I don't know if you want me to finish before lunch?

CHAIRPERSON: If you've got a couple of questions that you still want to canvass, perhaps it is appropriate to adjourn now and then you can continue after lunch?

MR BERGER: Very well, as the Court pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, we will adjourn until two o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION:

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (continued) Thank you Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, during the two or three week period between the time of the caucus that you spoke about until the attack, in that two or three week period, did you have any other discussions with anyone else, with anyone concerning a forthcoming attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: During that two or three week period, did you attend any meetings, either small meetings or large meetings where the possibility of an attack on Boipatong was discussed?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I never attended such a meeting.

MR BERGER: I take it then that you had no idea on the 17th of June 1992, when the alarm or when the trumpet sounded, you had no idea what was going to happen that night? Am I correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And in particular, you had no idea whatsoever that there was about to be an attack on Boipatong that night, when the alarm sounded, am I correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: When the alarm sounded, Mr Khanyile left the room and he never said anything to you, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: He left.

MR BERGER: And he never said anything to you when he left, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: He just left and went straight to the stadium where the alarm was sounded. He returned thereafter and left shortly after that.

MR BERGER: He left and then you say he came back and then left again? As I understood your evidence before lunch when the alarm sounded, he left and the next time that he came back, you were already asleep?

MR BUTHELEZI: When the alarm sounded, Khanyile left the room. After a short while he returned, and he left thereafter, shortly thereafter and returned late when I was already asleep.

MR BERGER: And you had no idea where he was going when he left the room for the second time, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not know.

MR BERGER: He never told you?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, he did not tell me.

MR BERGER: Why did he come back to the room a second time before leaving?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not really notice what he had come to pick up from the room.

MR BERGER: So even after Mr Khanyile left your room for the second time, you had absolutely no idea what was happening that night, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Do you then confirm your statement at page 60 of your affidavit, in the second last paragraph, you said and I will read the whole paragraph to you, you said I would have been prepared to go together with the other residents to attack Boipatong, however, I knew nothing about the attack and was in any event sick on the day of the attack. Do you confirm that passage?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And the first time that you heard anything about the attack, was the following day when you heard about it on the radio?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, because I went to town early the following morning.

MR BERGER: Were you feeling better?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, my chest had cleared a bit at that time.

MR BERGER: And on your way out of the hostel, you had no problems getting out of the hostel and nobody spoke to you about the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not encounter any problem. I just got into a taxi.

MR BERGER: There was no police presence at the hostel that morning, there was nobody talking to you about what had happened the night before? As far as you were concerned, nothing had happened the night before, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not speak to anyone the night before, and on the following morning still, I did not speak to anyone when I left.

MR BERGER: When was the first time that you spoke to anyone about the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: I heard about it when I was still in town. That is where I heard that Tserela had been attacked and people had died. It was on the news.

When I returned to the hostel, I discovered that police were now present at the hostel. I went into the hostel, that was when I enquired from Mr Khanyile where they had gone to the previous evening and he said that they had gone out to fight.

MR BERGER: And did he tell you anything more about what had happened or what had happened at the stadium or anything like that?

MR BUTHELEZI: He did not go into a lot of detail because there was a heavy police presence at the hostel. Therefore we were not able to get into a lengthy discussion.

MR BERGER: Did you have any further discussions with anyone else after that, about the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not discuss it with anybody else, as far as I am aware. I do not remember having spoken to anybody, but I cannot be sure because there were many of us living at the hostel.

MR BERGER: And until today, you really didn't have a discussion with anybody about what happened in Boipatong or what happened at the stadium before the attack, is that what you are saying?

MR BUTHELEZI: My co-accused in prison have been telling me, relating the story of what happened when they went out to attack in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: The afternoon of the 18th, this was the day after the attack, is it correct that Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu visited kwaMadala hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not see them on the Thursday afternoon.

MR BERGER: Did you see them at all, on the Friday or Saturday?

MR BUTHELEZI: I saw them on Friday, when they arrived with a police officer.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that there was a meeting of hostel residents, addressed by Mr Themba Khoza and he said to the residents that he had heard that you were responsible for the attack, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not hear about that.

MR BERGER: You were asked at this meeting where Themba Khoza was, not you personally but all the residents, whether you knew anything about the attack and you said no, we know nothing about the attack? Do you recall that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do recall that. When that police officer was asking us, that was when Mr Khoza said we should cooperate with the police to assist them in their investigation. So yes, I do recall that question.

MR BERGER: But you don't recall Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu saying that they had heard that you, the residents, were responsible for the attack, you don't recall that?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: Let me tell you what you said in response to a question at page 51, question 18. You were asked did Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu visit kwaMadala after the attack and your answer was yes.

Question 18.1, give particulars of the nature of this visit, answer, page 57, 18.1, they said that they had heard that we were responsible for the attack. We were asked if we know about the attack.

MR BUTHELEZI: If that is what is in the statement, it must have been a mistake of the person who was translating.

MR BERGER: You went on to say we said that we know nothing about it. They said that the police were busy with investigations, but that we are suspects. They said that we must cooperate with the police.

The first sentence that I read to you, they said that they heard that we were responsible for the attack, fits in with the rest of the paragraph. You say it is a mistake?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, it was a mistake.

MR BERGER: Do you know that property looted from Boipatong was burnt at the hostel on the day after the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not know anything about that property because I had left the hostel in the morning, therefore I did not see the property.

I cannot dispute that such property may have been burnt, because there was always a fire at the hostel, because it was cold at the time.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that in your conversations with your various accused, in your conversation with Mr Khanyile, nobody told you that the goods from Boipatong had been burnt?

MR BUTHELEZI: I don't remember anyone telling me about that property.

MR BERGER: Your deputy, Mr Victor Mthembu, never told you that Themba Khoza had ordered the burning of the goods?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, he did not tell me.

MR BERGER: You heard Mr Themba Khoza, you never heard him say that you must burn all the evidence?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not hear Mr Themba Khoza saying that.

MR BERGER: I want to put it to you Mr Buthelezi, that you are not being candid with this Committee, you are not telling the truth. You know that the goods were burnt, you know that Mr Themba Khoza ordered the burning of those goods.

You were there, isn't that so?

MR BUTHELEZI: I am telling the truth when I say that I do not know anything about that property.

MR BERGER: You, one of the prominent leaders of the IFP in the hostel, and you knew nothing about what was going on under your very nose, can that be true?

MR BUTHELEZI: I do not know about a lot of things. With regard to the attack on Boipatong, I have already mentioned that I went to town early in the morning, and returned when the police were already present at the hostel. I was not therefore able to gather enough information, because of that police presence.

MR BERGER: The Judge at pages 294 to 195 of the record in the criminal case, found that you were in fact present at Boipatong during the attack. You know that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is what the Judge said.

MR BERGER: You also know that on the basis of certain evidence from State witnesses, this is Mr Moloi, in fact there were three witnesses, Mr Bojozi, Moloi, Mciti, all of them said that you were in possession of an AK47 in Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is what they said, but it was not true, because I never went there.

MR BERGER: And that you were identified in Boipatong, in Bafokeng Street, do you remember that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I remember such evidence and that is why I refer to it as false because I never went to that place.

MR BERGER: But then as your Counsel pointed out, Mr Victor Mthembu, your deputy, gave evidence to this Committee, at page 59 of the record, he was asked by me, Mr Mthembu, can you name anybody in your group who was there that night, but you did not actually see carrying out an attack, answer, I can say that people like Buthelezi and somebody like Khanyile and Umsani were present when we went to attack.

Question, the third name that you mentioned was who? Answer, Umsani. Question, the Buthelezi that you are talking about, is that Mqambeleni Buthelezi, Mr Mthembu, yes, that is so.

Your deputy who knows you very well, says that you were present when you went to attack Boipatong, three State witnesses put you in possession of an AK47, another State witness placed you in Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: That is not so according to my recollection and according to the judgment. The State witness who placed him in Boipatong, was Moloi, one of the State witnesses earlier mentioned.

MR BERGER: Yes, I am not suggesting a fourth State witness, I am sorry. Another meaning one of the three, not all three, not all three placed you in Bafokeng Street. Three placed you in possession of an AK47, one placed you in Bafokeng Street, your deputy says you were present when you went to carry out the attack. Are all of these people mistaken and telling lies, Mr Buthelezi?

MR BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, Mr Berger, they made a mistake. I did not go to Tserela.

MR BERGER: Mr Victor Mthembu was a co-accused with you in the criminal trial, correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: Mr Victor Mthembu was with you as one of your co-accused in the criminal trial?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: He heard you tell the Judge that you were sick, that you were not present in the attack on Boipatong, correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And yet he came to this Committee and said that you were present. That can't be a mistake, can it Mr Buthelezi?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I am explaining Mr Berger, Victor made a mistake.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Buthelezi, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Just a few questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't cover matter that have already been canvassed.

MR MALINDI: Sure, I won't do Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, the problem that you had with the residents of Boipatong, was that an issue effecting the IFP or the Zulu speaking people at kwaMadala only?

MR BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question. Will you please repeat the question.

MR LAX: He is asking you to repeat the question Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: My question is, the problem that you as residents of kwaMadala had, with the residents of Boipatong, was that an issue for the IFP or was it an issue for the Zulu speaking residents of kwaMadala?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was a problem for the IFP as well as for the residents of the hostel, because they were no longer free to walk in the streets, they would be attacked.

MR MALINDI: If Mtwana Vanana Zulu, if it had come to your knowledge that Mtwana Vanana Zulu had suggested that the attack should not be launched, whilst he tries to speak to the leaders of Boipatong, would you have followed his request or instructions?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I would have followed that instruction because I myself, desired negotiations between us and the ANC.

MR MALINDI: You yourself, as a leader at kwaMadala were aware that there was an alternative way to resolve this problem other than attacking the residents of Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: As a leader, I was aware that there were alternative means to resolve the problem, but the problem we had was contacting ANC leaders, because they were intimidated themselves, they lived under the fear that if they talked to IFP leaders, they could be attacked by their own members.

MR MALINDI: You yourself regarded Mtwana Zulu as the overall leader of kwaMadala, isn't that so?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did explain the position of Mtwana Zulu at the hostel.

MR MALINDI: Going back to the judgement during your trial, you say when you told the Judge that you were not part of the attacking group in Boipatong, you were telling the truth?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did tell the truth, I did not go to Boipatong.

MR MALINDI: And when you told the Judge that you did not hear the siren or the alarm being sounded, you were not telling the truth? Is that not so?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was telling lies.

MR MALINDI: When you were telling the Judge that you were not aware of a meeting prior to the attack, was that the truth or were you telling a lie?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was a lie. I was just denying the charges.

MR MALINDI: And when you told the Court that the attackers did not come out of kwaMadala, you were not telling the truth?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was telling lies.

MR MALINDI: So all the lies that you told in that court, it was because you wanted to protect residents of kwaMadala and leaders of kwaMadala, isn't it so?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was trying to save myself.

MR MALINDI: No, you told the Judge that you were not there, that was saving yourself, but when you told the Judge that none of the residents of kwaMadala left the hostel to attack in Boipatong, you were protecting the residents of kwaMadala, isn't that so?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was just trying to escape and save myself.

MR MALINDI: And at the same time, by denying that the residents attacked and denying that meetings took place prior to the attack, you were also protecting the leaders of kwaMadala hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was just trying to protect myself against the crime, against the charge, the entire charge.

MR MALINDI: Including protecting the leaders of kwaMadala?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was also a leader at that time. I was arrested because I was a leader.

MR MALINDI: Mr Buthelezi, you are evading my question and I will leave it at that.

When you filled in your amnesty applications, you have conceded to the Court, to this Committee, that you did not tell the whole truth because you were not sure of the stratus of this Amnesty Committee, is that not so?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR MALINDI: What I want to put to you is that your denial that people like Mr Zulu, Vanana Zulu and Mr Themba Khoza knew about the pending attack and the attack itself, is another way of protecting the kwaMadala leaders and other residents.

MR BUTHELEZI: That is not true.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: No questions Mr Chairperson.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Did Mr Mkhize play any leadership role in the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: What was his role?

MR BUTHELEZI: He would be the leader, he will be in front when we went out to rallies or to traditional ceremonies. That was his role.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with respect to my learned friend, Mr Strydom, from my cross-examination it would have been noted that I asked certain questions and I deliberately did not ask questions about Mr Mkhize, because of the answers that I was given. With respect, this is not a matter for re-examination.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I would submit that it is. A certain amount of questions were asked about leadership and I am following up on the question about leadership and that is why I am asking that question.

CHAIRPERSON: We will allow the question, proceed.

MR STRYDOM: You just made reference to marches, when people went out to march, was that when the AmaButho came together or what?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with respect, AmaButho again, was not raised at all in the cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, I think the important thing to note is that this is an enquiry. The purpose of this is not to restrict the scope of the enquiry, we are here to get, to seek answers. We are not here to restrict the process.

If you want to follow up on these matters, you would be given the opportunity to do that so this question would be allowed. Yes Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: I have put the question about the AmaButho, can you just give an answer?

MR BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, I know AmaButho to be a large number of people who would be assembled.

MR STRYDOM: You were also asked about meetings, what I want to know about these meetings, when a meeting is called in the hostel, will each and every member, each and every resident in the hostel go to these meetings or just a portion of those people?

MR BUTHELEZI: If there was a need, all the residents would attend the meeting.

MR STRYDOM: When will, if the alarm is sounded, how will the residents know that all of them are needed at this specific meeting?

MR BUTHELEZI: When the alarm is sounded, it meant that people should go to the meeting.

MR STRYDOM: You made a reference during your cross-examination about Interpreters. I just want to find out, can you speak English or Afrikaans?

MR BUTHELEZI: No. I do not know either English or Afrikaans.

MR STRYDOM: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Pretorius?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS: Do you know whether Mkhize went along that night, did you hear anything afterwards when you discussed it with your co-accused in prison?

MR BUTHELEZI: From what I heard, yes, he did go on the attack.

MS PRETORIUS: In a matter like this where the AmaButho or the Zulu's go on attack, will he who is the leader of the AmaButho, lead the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is how it should have happened.

MS PRETORIUS: The meetings that were held at the hostel, were some of the meetings only attended by the senior men and some only by the youth, or did everybody attend all the meetings?

MR BUTHELEZI: If the youth was attending specifically to youth issues, they would hold that meeting on their own, and the same would apply to the senior committee, unless if it was a general meeting, where everyone would attend.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: Just one question Mr Chairman. In your cross-examination and in examination in chief, you do not place yourself at the Boipatong attack, you do not know anything about the date of the attack or details relating to the attack, facts of which Mr Nosenga is very certain.

Are you still, can you still be so sure as to state that Mr Nosenga only joined the hostel after your arrest which means after the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I am very much certain about that, I do not know him.

MS TANZER: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, I just want to understand your understanding of the Truth Commission process and particularly this amnesty process.

What is it that you were concerned about at the time or let's put it another way, what is it that you didn't understand about the Truth Commission process when you filled out these forms?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was not explained to as to how it operates. I was just informed that I have to lodge an application for amnesty pertaining to the Tserela incident. That is what was informed to me.

I was also told that I should divulge all the truth that I know.

MR LAX: Who told you that?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was informed by my lawyer at the time of taking the statement.

MR LAX: What were you concerned about at that time?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was concerned because if you look at this amnesty thing, I saw an opportunity to tell the truth.

MR LAX: So you saw an opportunity to tell the truth, do I understand you correctly?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: Why were you concerned about telling the truth?

MR BUTHELEZI: I had already heard that we had a duty to come before the Commission to explain what happened when Tserela was attacked, and explain the reasons thereof.

I therefore took up this opportunity to come forward to explain.

MR LAX: Yes, but your evidence was that you had a concern about the process. I am trying to understand what that concern was. What were you worried about or weren't you worried, have we all misunderstood you?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did explain that I was also concerned that I didn't have information as to how the procedure of the TRC was, but I just grabbed an opportunity to tell the truth.

MR LAX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat your answer again, the answer that you have just given.

MR BUTHELEZI: My answer is the one thing that I was concerned about is that I didn't know how the TRC functioned in relation to the court for example, but I knew that I had an opportunity to come forward and tell the truth as it is. That is that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter, I think what the witness is saying that when he came here, he then only saw how the Commission works?

Mr Buthelezi, you have told my colleague that you were concerned about the TRC because you didn't know how it works.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you now understand how it works?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you become aware of that?

MR BUTHELEZI: I began to understand this when I came to listen to the hearings for the first time, and I realised that this is the place where the truth should be told.

CHAIRPERSON: The concerns that you mentioned to my colleague, do you still have those concerns?

MR BUTHELEZI: No. Not at all.

MR LAX: Now, you say you didn't understand how the process works, but you did understand that you had an opportunity to tell the truth, is that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Why didn't you tell us the truth in all these documents?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did explain here that at the time of taking the statement, and processing or preparing the application, I did not have hope or trust or faith in the TRC.

MR LAX: But you have told us that your lawyer told you here is your opportunity to tell the truth?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he did say that.

MR LAX: Now, you said that Mkhize was present at this caucus where you discussed the decision to, you discussed the issue of what to do about the attacks on your people and you came to the unanimous conclusion that the best thing to do was to attack Boipatong, do I understand that correctly?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Mkhize has told us absolutely nothing about any caucus whatsoever, in any of his evidence. Were you here yesterday when he gave evidence?

MR BUTHELEZI: I don't know, he is the one who was rendering testimony here.

MR LAX: He only told us about one sort of caucus and that was a discussion he had with Damara Qunchu. He didn't mention this caucus at all. You don't know why he didn't mention it? Do you think maybe he has forgotten or he is mistaken or what?

MR BUTHELEZI: I really don't know.

MR LAX: Just one other aspect on the filling out of these forms, the truth is that you weren't present there, correct at the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: And the truth is also that you didn't know when the attack was going to happen?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: And that you weren't present at any of the meetings besides the caucus, where decisions were taken to attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: What were you trying to hide by lying? What was the purpose of your lies, what were you trying to manufacture? What different version of the truth were you trying to achieve?

MR BUTHELEZI: I am certain that I was not present at the meeting where the decision was taken.

MR LAX: You haven't answered my question, do you understand the question?

MR BUTHELEZI: I am not hiding anything.

MR LAX: The question I am asking is, what were you seeking to hide by lying in these forms because the truth in no way, interferes, so what were you trying to achieve by lying? Do you understand the question?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do understand the question. I have already explained, I cannot say there is anything in particular that I wanted to achieve. I have explained this numerous times now.

MR LAX: So you had no intention to achieve, by telling lies? There was no purpose in it, is that what you are telling us?

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe the fact that he did not trust the TRC?

MR BUTHELEZI: There was no intention of benefitting from so doing, really.

MR LAX: Just one second, we are just sorting out something with the translation. Were you present at the hostel on the Sunday before the massacre? There have been a lot of talk about meetings that happened on the Sunday and the Saturday, were you actually there because I am not clear from your answers whether you were there or not?

MR BUTHELEZI: I have already indicated that I know about a meeting that was held on the 13th.

MR LAX: At Jabulani, were you there on that day?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was present on the 13th.

MR LAX: Were you present on the 14th?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was not present at the meeting on the 14th.

MR LAX: So you can't deny anything about that meeting because you weren't there?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: At some point during your evidence under cross-examination, you said that you didn't know anything about the allegations, you were asked did you know anything about the allegations surrounding Victor Keswa and your answer was no, I am not aware about him. I am a person who minds my own business, I wasn't interested in what he was doing.

Is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: I said I was not aware of what he was doing, of his activities.

MR LAX: The question you were asked was, were you aware of the allegations about Victor Keswa, not about what he was doing and that was your answer.

MR BUTHELEZI: I said no.

MR LAX: But later in your evidence you indicated that you had heard about the allegations on the radio. I just want you to explain that for us please.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did hear on the radio that he was alleged to be a hitsquad member. I heard about that.

MR LAX: As Chairperson of the Youth Brigade, did you ever ask him about this, weren't you concerned about it? Here was one of your members involved in this kind of activity or allegedly involved in this kind of activity. Did you ever do something about it?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not question him, but I was - I started to watch him closely to try and ascertain if indeed those allegations could be true.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: How far was your room from the main gate at the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was close to the gate.

ADV SIGODI: And you have heard the evidence here that the hostel dwellers left through the main gate when they were going to attack and there were hundreds of them.

Your evidence here is that you did not know anything, you did not know anything about the attack or that there was going to be an attack, you only got to know about the attack the following morning.

Can you explain to me how is it possible that if hundreds of people are leaving through the main gate, that you would not have heard them? Or did you hear them when they left through the main gate?

MR BUTHELEZI: Because of the state of my ill health, I was not able to listen as to what was happening.

Because of my ill health, I did not see what was happening at the hostel.

ADV SIGODI: You did not see what was happening, did you hear the sound of people walking through the main gate?

MR BUTHELEZI: When people walk up and down around the place, you do hear footsteps but you wouldn't know who they are or where they are going.

ADV SIGODI: But would you agree with me that there would be a difference from the sound of people walking in and out of the gate and from the sound of a whole group of people going out to attack? Would you agree with me on that point?

MR BUTHELEZI: If they were making a lot of noise, I could have heard them if I was not in deep sleep, but I did not hear them.

ADV SIGODI: All right, I will leave that. This caucus which you had, who called the meeting?

MR BUTHELEZI: It had been called by myself and Mr Khumalo.

ADV SIGODI: Had you discussed with Mr Khumalo who you were going to call to the caucus?

MR BUTHELEZI: We discussed on who to contact and we decided on Qunchu and Mr Mkhize.

ADV SIGODI: Can you say it was a formal meeting or was it just an informal thing where you just wanted to discuss what you wanted to do, what should be done about the problem of the Boipatong residents?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was an informal discussion, because we did not have time to sit down and analyze all the issues, but we were just discussing amongst ourselves.

ADV SIGODI: After that, you did not take any steps to make sure that the attack took place?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not do anything.

ADV SIGODI: And you were not involved in any planning to the way in which the Boipatong residents would be attacked, the modus operandi, as to how you were going to come into the township and all that, you never took part in any of that?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, you said on the 14th of June, you were not there? Where were you?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was out, I could have been in town. I may have gone to buy out stock for my tuckshop in the hostel.

MR SIBANYONI: When you returned, didn't you hear that there was a meeting and what was discussed in the meeting?

MR BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately, they did not inform me about it.

MR SIBANYONI: On the 17th of June, on the day of the attack, did you hear the siren or the alarm being sounded?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did.

MR SIBANYONI: Did Mr Khanyile leave immediately when the siren was sounded or was there some delay?

MR BUTHELEZI: He left immediately after the alarm was sounded, because the alarm means that people should assemble at the stadium.

He left immediately after the alarm sounded.

MR SIBANYONI: You spoke about different meetings that the youth would meet alone to discuss their own issues, and there will be a general meeting. My question is, was this alarm used for each and every meeting which was called?

MR BUTHELEZI: The alarm was sounded for general meetings.

MR SIBANYONI: And you said Mr Khanyile returned after he left for the first time, but he left again. When he returned, were you not eager to know why they were called, what was the meeting all about?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I had no desire. I thought I would question him in the morning, as to what the alarm had been for.

MR SIBANYONI: Why didn't you ask him in the morning as you intended to do so?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not question him because when I realised that my chest was a little bit better, I felt that I should go to town and do my business there.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you think of a reason why Mr Victor Mthembu and those witnesses at the criminal trial, would say that you were at Boipatong when you were not there?

MR BUTHELEZI: I think because I was a leader who was always amongst them, they may have assumed that I was there.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it not so that maybe you want to maintain the version which you gave before the criminal trial?

MR BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it not so that you want to stick to the version which you gave at the criminal trial?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is not so, I am telling the truth.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

ADV SIGODI: Can you tell me why - you heard Mr Mkhize's evidence yesterday, didn't you?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And you heard him say that he decided that an attack must be launched because there was a threat on his life?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I heard him say so.

ADV SIGODI: And that the decision came entirely from him?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I heard him say so.

ADV SIGODI: Now what I would like to know is, if you had a caucus with him some two weeks earlier, why would Mr Mkhize not tell you that today we are going to launch the attack, why would you not be informed of that?

MR BUTHELEZI: I think that maybe he had already heard that I was not well on that day, that is what I think. I cannot be certain.

ADV SIGODI: How long had you been ill?

MR BUTHELEZI: I had been unwell since the morning of that day.

ADV SIGODI: Did you see Mr Mkhize on that day?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I was sitting in the yard during the day, I did see him passing on my left. I did not see where he eventually went to.

ADV SIGODI: Did he know that you were sick? Did he know that you were ill?

MR BUTHELEZI: I am not sure, but I had not told him about it.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, just one small aspect. It is Mr Buthelezi, around the issue of negotiations. You did say that you were in favour of negotiations, did I understand that correctly?

MR BUTHELEZI: I said I had the desire to hold negotiations with them.

MR LAX: You also said that you were not sure how to make contact with the people in the township, did I understand that correctly?

MR BUTHELEZI: I don't think you heard me correctly. I said our problem was that it was not easy to communicate with ANC leaders, because in the township, if they were to communicate with us, they would be regarded as sellouts to Inkatha.

MR LAX: Why didn't you go to your leadership in Johannesburg, contact the office and say, we are having a terrible problem, we need to contact the ANC, can you do it through the right channels for us? It would have been a simple way of dealing with negotiations, getting them going?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not do that. It was our duty as leaders at grassroots level to find and identify people from our own ranks who would do that.

MR LAX: But you have just said you had a problem doing that, so why didn't you do something else?

MR BUTHELEZI: We had a problem, we had a serious problem of contacting ANC leaders from Tserela. We did not succeed in doing that.

MR LAX: Why didn't you try and use the police?

MR BUTHELEZI: At that time, the police were not in favour of such negotiations, they would normally say that it was not their duty to do so.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you employed at the time of the attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: At the time, I was out of a job, I was unemployed.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you earn your living?

MR BUTHELEZI: I used to sell in the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: What things were you selling?

MR BUTHELEZI: Foodstuffs and fresh produce, like vegetables.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you fairly busy?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, at that time, it was busy because the people at the hostel did not go out to town.

CHAIRPERSON: Your shop or outlet, was there any other person who was hawking vegetables, or other things at the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: I will say yes, there were other people who were selling at the hostel, because it was a huge place.

CHAIRPERSON: Describe this illness that you had on the 17th of June 1992? You spoke about your chest, what was the problem?

MR BUTHELEZI: I still have a problem, it becomes tight and I am unable to walk long distances. I become cold, I become cold and also very hot.

CHAIRPERSON: How long would it last?

MR BUTHELEZI: Would you please repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: How long would that last?

MR BUTHELEZI: Even up to this day, I still have this problem.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can walk, you can come to the hearing, right?

MR BUTHELEZI: If it is not too bad, yes, I am able to walk distances.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you taking any medication for your chest problem?

MR BUTHELEZI: At that time, I did not have any medication in the room.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather that you were in bed as a result of your illness?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long had you been in bed?

MR BUTHELEZI: It had not been for many days, because it is a problem that comes and goes. If the weather changes, it becomes cold, then I have the problem.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about the day, the 17th, you have told us that you were in bed, you were laying down.

MR BUTHELEZI: I had had this problem for the whole day. That was why I was in bed on this day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. When you were told to apply for amnesty, what were you told about the process of amnesty?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was told to lodge an application so that I can get an opportunity to appear before the Committee and relate what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told who could make that application?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was told that my Attorney should lodge the application.

CHAIRPERSON: But were you told who qualified for amnesty?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, they told me that if you were convicted for a crime like I was, you should lodge an application.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not told that people who qualify for amnesty, are people who have done something wrong, not necessarily who have been convicted? Were you told about that?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was told that as a person who was convicted of attacking Tserela, I should come before the TRC. I was told about my situation, that I should come and seek amnesty and clear my name before the people of Tserela.

CHAIRPERSON: In so far as you were concerned, when you appeared in court, did you consider yourself to have done anything wrong?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was charged and the Court decided that I indeed was guilty.

CHAIRPERSON: No forget for the moment about what the charges were and what the Court found, I want to find out from you whether did you consider yourself to have done anything wrong in regard to the massacre in Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: I realised that I had done something wrong, I did not tell the whole truth in court.

CHAIRPERSON: When you appeared in court, was there anything that you considered having done wrong?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were then told that you could apply for amnesty, were you told that you are required to tell the truth?

MR BUTHELEZI: My lawyer told me.

CHAIRPERSON: And in so far as you are concerned, that truth would have been that because you were ill in bed, you didn't go to Boipatong, you weren't part of the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not go to Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: And of course, that there was a caucus meeting with Majola?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did attend that meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the problem you had in telling the truth in your application?

MR BUTHELEZI: The problem that I had was that I did not have enough information and knowledge about the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Lack of full knowledge about the TRC, how does that prevent you from telling the truth?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not know what the procedure was, and I decided that I would have to wait and see how the process went in the TRC and I realised that I would have to tell the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that that at some point, you understood how the process works, but what I want to find out from you is, lack of full knowledge of how the TRC functions, how does that prevent you from telling the truth? Do you understand the question?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do understand?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was afraid to tell the truth when I made that application. I was afraid.

CHAIRPERSON: You were afraid to tell your legal representative the truth?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were afraid to tell the TRC the truth?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was afraid then, but I have told the truth here.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. Why were you afraid, what were you afraid of? Why were you afraid of telling your legal representative the truth, which your legal representative can then convey to the TRC?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was afraid and hoped that my Attorney would pass on whatever information that I had given him, until such time that I saw for myself what the process was.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the truth of the matter that you didn't trust the TRC?

MR BUTHELEZI: Because of that lack of knowledge, yes, I did not trust the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Under cross-examination certain discrepancies were pointed out to you between your statement and your evidence and in one occasion you said that there was a mistake with the interpretation.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that the person who interpreted what you had said, made a mistake?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that Interpreter must have made a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not that it was part of telling the untruth to your Attorney because you didn't trust the TRC?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: On the 18th of June 1992 I think it is, you were well enough to go and get stock for your shop?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I went.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you want this Committee to grant you amnesty? What is it that you did wrong?

MR BUTHELEZI: I seek amnesty for the reason that I was charged and convicted. I know that I was wrong to hold that caucus and in fact decide and propagate that people should be killed and attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a statement which was put to you under cross-examination I think it was, dealing with your, the reason why you did not go to Boipatong. The reason I think that appears in that statement is that you were, you did not know that there was going to be an attack in Boipatong, I think that is the effect of what you said, and in any event, you were ill in bed.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the real reason why you didn't go to Boipatong? Is it because you were ill in bed, or is it because you didn't know that there was an attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was sick on the 17th and therefore could not go to Boipatong. Had I not been sick, I would have accompanied this contingent to Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: As you were laying down there on the 17th, if your roommate had come to you and said Buthelezi, the day has arrived, we are now on our way to Boipatong, would you have gone to Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: They did not come, but I would have indicated that I am sick and perhaps suggest that they wait.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Mr Strydom, anything arising?

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: One question Chairperson. If you were not sick that day, after you heard the alarm, would you have gone to the stadium?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I would.

MR STRYDOM: And then would you have joined the people to Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: No further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MS TANZER: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

MR MAPOMA: No questions Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, you spent the day of the 17th sitting in the yard, did you not?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You were not in bed on the 17th, during the day?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was in bed, but I would wake up and walk around, I would walk around in the yard.

MR BERGER: Who were the ANC leaders in Boipatong that you tried to get hold of, but couldn't?

MR BUTHELEZI: The ones that I heard about was a Mr Tsotso who was the leader of the ANC at Boipatong, as well as Mr Mgebe. I only heard about them, I had not met them.

MR BERGER: So, it was well known in the hostel that Mr Ernest Tsotso was a prominent leader of the ANC in Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: When I asked you to list all the structures of the IFP in the hostel, you did not mention the AmaButho, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: I take it therefore that the AmaButho were not considered an IFP structure within the hostel, am I correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: AmaButho is a group of people assigned to go out and carry out a certain task.

MR BERGER: My question to you is, is it correct to say that the AmaButho were not considered to be an IFP structure in the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: When I asked you to mention all the leaders of the IFP in the hostel, you did not mention Mr Mkhize, am I correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct, because he was not part of the whole structure. He was just an Induna on his own with others.

MR BERGER: So therefore it would be correct to say that Mr Mkhize was not an IFP leader in the hostel, correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he was just an Induna of everybody who resided at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Buthelezi.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Just one question Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, some of your applicants if I remember their evidence well, gave evidence that when they left the hostel, they were chanting slogans and singing and that they did the same on their way back from Boipatong.

If this is how they conducted themselves, your room being very close to the main gate, you would have heard them leave and you would have heard them come back, is that not so?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I must object to that question. There was not evidence to my recollection, I think that is - it comes out of the statement of Mr Matanzima Nosenga.

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, Mr Khanyile said so in his evidence. I have checked my notes to make sure earlier.

MR STRYDOM: I stand to be corrected, I withdraw my objection.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson. My question was that if the attackers had conducted themselves in that manner when they left the hostel and when they came back, you would have heard them as your room was very close to the main gate?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR MALINDI: About this caucus meeting, you say your view was that the Boipatong residents must be beaten up if I am interpreting the Zulu word you used, "shaya" correctly. Is that what you understood should be done to the residents of Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR MALINDI: You did not envisage that they should be killed?

MR BUTHELEZI: We are talking about killing a person here during an attack.

MR MALINDI: If that is what you envisaged, why didn't you use the word that they should have been killed specifically?

MR BUTHELEZI: In Zulu when we say a person is being beaten up, it is understood that they should be killed. I had explained in Zulu and everybody who speaks the language, would understand it very well.

MR MALINDI: I will not take it any further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon Ma'am, sorry, I beg your pardon. Sometimes you are marginalised.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Oh very well. Thank you Mr Buthelezi, you may step down, but before you do, is there anything, did you want to say something? Do you want to say something?

MR BUTHELEZI: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, before you step down, who is your next witness Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next witness is number 5 on the list, Timothy Stals Mazibuko.

CHAIRPERSON: We may still have to have a short adjournment.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, like the other applicants, the evidence in chief, won't take long.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a break until quarter past four, and when we come back, we will hear Mazibuko.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. Return to the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory site.