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This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.

Lionel Gay: pp. 195 - 355

-195-     B. SEBEKO. L.S. GAY.

Now, you have told us that you think that you know Accused No. 3, do you know any of the other accused before the Court, apart from Nos. 1 and 3?---No, I do not,

MR. TUCKER: No further questions.

MR. BIZOS: Requests a short adjournment.---Permission granted.

AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS.

ON RESUMING:

BENTON SEBEKO, still under oath (Interpreted)

MR. BIZOS: No questions.

CROSS--EXAMINATION BY MR. HARE:

Benton, the person that you say is Accused No. 3, you only saw on one occasion at the University?---Yes.

MR.HARE No further questions.

MR TUCKER: No re-examination.

--------------

MR. BIZOS:  Objects to the evidence of the accomplices being led in the camera, and gives his reasons, and submits that only in the oasis where there is very good reason, should the evidence be led in the absence of the public.   MR. MASTERS: Opposes the application, and gives his reasons for this. He informs the Court that he could lead evidence that people have been killed for giving information to the Court, amongst other things.

BY THE COURT: Well, the Court has already given a ruling at the outset of the case, and there is no reason to change the ruling at this stage.

-------------------

IN CAMERA:

LIONEL STANLEY GRAY, declares under oath

-196-     L.S. GAY.

COURT Warns witness in terms of Section 254.

EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS:

Mr. Gay, what are your academic qualifications?---A Master of Science.

What Science is that?---In Physics.

And you are a married man, are you?---I am, yes.

How many children?---Two.

And you were arrested on the 26th of June this year, were you?---On the 27th of June.

And at the time of your arrest you were a lecturer in physics at the local University?---The University of the Witwatersrand, yes.

(Witness called 'D'.  And Mr. Gay, then what specialised knowledge have/got in radio, electricity, or explosives?---I am not sure, how to understand the question - in the sense of having received education, in those particular fields?

Well, we can put it that first?---Well, physics is a broad subject in which I did not come to grips with explosives of any kind, but of course, as part of my first degree course, I read one year in chemistry and this gave me some familiarity with chemistry and of course, that could have been used later in connection with explosives. Insofar as radio is concerned, I was employed with the S.A.B.C. for four years before embarking upon my University education.

On the technical side?---Yes, on the Engineering staff, but of course, in the degree course of physics, one again comes to grips with basic electronical radio theory, but not to any great extent.

Did you make it your hobby as well?----Yes,

-197-     L.S. GAY.

radio was essentially my hobby, but in physics one could specialise in that field, although I did not do so.

And what about electricity?---Electricity again, one of the basic branches of physics.

Now, I think in 1961, you were living in Durban were you?---I was, yes.

Now, up to that stage, did you take any interest in politics?---Very little. I was a member of the Torch Commando, but I had little understanding of politics at the time.

And what happened in 1961 then?---In 1961, I joined the Congress of Democrats, probably after July of that year, I do not quite remember the exact date, I joined the Congress of Democrats in Durban.

Do you remember who approached you to join the organisation?---One of two persons - I knew Mr. Arenstein, I got to know him as a member of the International Film Society, and probably through him I got to know Mr. Kasrils, who I believe was resident with Mr. Arenstein at the time, and through one of either of those two persons, I joined the Congress of Democrats.

First of all, did you take an active part in the affairs of the C.O.D.?---I attended, I do not think more than one meeting, of the Congress of Demo-crats as such. After Mr. Kasrils was banned, I think he suggested that I went along to attend meetings of the Committee which sought to obtain recognition of the African Municipal Workers Union in Durban. This was a committee consisting of about eight persons. I served on that for a while, but not, I would say officially as a delegate, but it was suggested that I go along to this committee.

-198-     L.S. GAY.

Well, what were primarily the activities of the C.O.D. as you understood it?---The C.O.D. in Durban, it was part of the Congress Alliance, and as such it propagated ideas common to that alliance.

What are they?---I think these could be summarised by the Freedom Charter.

We will not take it any further. Now, about January, 1962, you came up to Johannesburg, did you?---In February of 1962.

Now, before you left Durban to come up to Johannesburg, were you approached again in connection with some organisation?---Yes, Ronald Kasrils approached me, and asked me if I was prepared to work on the local Technical Committee of the organisation known as Umkonto We Ziswe.

Now, at that stage, did you know what the Umkonto We Ziswe stood for?----No, I did not at that stage. As far as I am aware, its existence was only publicly announced in December. I think Kasrils approached me at about that time, and from him I understood that it was an organisation consisting of volunteers from the Congress Alliance, which was set up for the performance of sabotage.

So you understood at that stage, that its aims were sabotage?---Yes.

Did Kasrils tell you what you were to do in the organisation?---Yes, it was quite clear to me that I would have worked on the local Technical Committee, had I stayed in that city, but Kasrils, knowing that I was about to come up to Johannesburg, not many weeks after he approached me, said he did not think it desirable that I meet the other members of the local Technical Committee.

- 199 -     L.S. GAY

However, I adopted the name of Badger, and before leaving Durban, I called in at the local office of New Age. Let me say that it was a habit of mine to call in about once a week in the latter half of that year, to collect my copy of the newspaper by that name, and on the last occasion that I called in that office, Mr. Naicker who, I think was in charge of that office, called me aside and said "I am going up to Johannesburg within about three weeks, and I will introduce you to some of the people up there. Now Mr. Naicker did not say specifically that some of the people, referred to members of M.K., and when I...I do not know if I may use the letters M.K. to stand for Umkonto We Ziswe, he did not say specifically that the people up here refer to that organisation, but that is what I understood by it. His arrangement was that he would telephone me in the city, and that I was to meet him outside the St. John's office next to the station at a time and a day to be arranged on the telephone, and that he would meet me. However, he did not telephone me, and it was only some four or five months later, that I was approached in this City.

What were the initials of this Naicker, do you know?---M. P.

Well, you say you took the name of Badger? ---Yes.

Was that for the purpose of M.K.?---Yes.

And when you left Durban, was it understood that that would be the name you have been known by here, or what was the arrangement?---Well, pseudonyms in this organisation, are of a temporary nature. They change if the conditions change. If it is considered desirable.

- 200 -     L.S. GAY.

Anyhow, before you left Durban you were known, as far as you are aware to the M.K., by the name of Badger? ---Badger, yes.

And you told us that you came to Johannesburg at about February, 1963?---Mid February yes.

Is that to take up the appointment at the University?---Yes.

Now, when you arrived in Johannesburg, did you meet anybody up here?---Yes, it was perhaps four, five or even six months later, that Mr. Kitson approached me one day in my office, and he mentioned the name Badger.

So that would be when do you think? About August - July/August?---July or August, I think. I am not certain on that.

Your office at the University?---At the University, yes,

Had you met Mr. Kitson before? That is No. 2 Accused?---Yes.

You had not met him before?---I had not.

This visit then, was unexpected?---Let me say, that I expected to be approached within two or three weeks of arriving in the city, through M.P. Naicker, so I expected a visit, and then again, so much time had elapsed, that in the meantime, I had started taking other measures to approach the organisation.

You say he came into your office, and how did he announce himself?---He addressed me as Badger. I think the first visit was confined purely to making my acquaintance. I do not remember the details, and I think Mr. Kitson sought at that stage, to enquire whether I was still interested.

Did he enquire?---Yes, he saint to know whether

-201-     L.S. GAY.

I was still interested in working with the organisation.

Well, did he ask you whether you were still interested in...?---Working for M.K. Let me say, I do not know whether Mr. Kitson mentioned M.K. specifically, on that occasion, I am not sure of that, but for me it was understood - the name Badger and my association in Durban with Kasrils.

Alright, before we get onto the...what occurred at M.K., at about this time had you joined the Communist Party as well?---No, not as early as that. Of course, soon after arriving in Johannesburg, I reported my presence in the city to the local office of the Congress of Democrats, and amongst the persons I met at the local office was Ben Turok.

You met Mr. Ben Turok, who was the Secretary of the C.O.D. was he, or...?---The National Secretary.

Yes?---And I approached Mr. Turok one day, and I said specifically I would like to be put in contact with the Communist Party. His reply was, it was a guarded one at that stage, he said that I made a mistake in approaching him, he did not know anything about it, but nevertheless, later he informed me that in connection with my request, I was to see Harold Wolpe.

Now, was this after you had been approached by No. 2 Accused, or about the same time or what?---I am not certain of the sequence of events. Soon after this, under Wolpe's direction, I embarked upon a study of Marxism, and as the result of that, I joined the Communist Party in August of that year.

Yes, I was just trying to get the time. You do not remember whether it was before you were approached by

-202 -     L.S.: GAY.

Kitson?---No, I am not sure whether I approached Mr. Turok before or after Mr. Kitson saw me in my office, and greeted me as Badger.

Well, it was somewhere around the same time then?---Yes, about the same time.

And did you later become a member of a Communist cell?---Yes, I did. I became a member of a cell which consisted of five persons, the other four were Arthur Goldreich, Harold Wolpe, Lionel Bernstein and Vivian Esra.

And what activities did this cell carry out? ---This cell, with one exception, it used to meet at Rivonia, and the one exception was a meeting held at the home of Mr. Esra, when I think, Harold Wolpe was travelling abroad....sorry, not Harold Wolpe, when Arthur Goldreich was travelling abroad. Well, essentially then, this cell used to meet at Rivonia, and our activities - first of all, we occasionally embarked upon political discussions. I would say that essentially, our activities were concerned with the duplicating of various documents, this work was usually performed in the thatched cottage, at Rivonia.

Do you mean you actually did the manual work of the duplicating?---Yes.

Can you remember what type of documents you duplicated?---I can remember only one document. This was the last one we did in about April of 1963. This was a document concerned with the China/Soviet(?) dispute. I did not read the document, but during the process of duplicating, I picked up the odd page and just glanced at it.

You say you do not remember the other documents which you did?---No, I do not remember any of the others. As part of this activity, we did address a number of documents as well, putting them in envelopes and addressing.

Can you identify any of the documents that you sent out in that way, by the heading or something?---No, I do not remember.

And did you meet anybody else at Rivonia, apart from the names of people you have mentioned?---I met Mrs. Goldreich, of course, and later in April or perhaps a little later than April, I had cause to meet other persons, because I began working on another committee,

No, I will get to that just now. I am speaking of this first stage, when you attended the Communist Party cell meetings at Rivonia?---No, no other persons, except African domestic servants.

Of the people in the cell, was somebody living at Rivonia then, or...?---Yes, I understood that the residence was occupied by Arthur Goldreich and his family.

Arthur Goldreich?----Yes.

Well now, to get back to M.K. then -- you say you were approached by No. 2 Accused, Mr. Kitson, about July/August, and what happened? He met you at your office, and then what happened after that?---Yes, as I said just now, the first meeting as I remember it, was one of approach, making my acquaintance without revealing his identity, as Mr. Kitson, and just to find out whether I was interested. I do not remember the details, but sooner or later, I began serving on the local Technical Committee. Whether it was Mr. Kitson who took me to that first meeting or not, I do not remember, but I think it was Mr. Kitson who took me to my first meeting.

Well about how long after you had first met Mr. Kitson, did you appear on the Technical Committee? --I am not sure of the period. A month or two months, and I am not sure whether my accepted membership of the Communist Party preceded my serving on the Technical Committee or not. That I do not remember.

Now, this Technical Committee you referred to - a Technical Committee of which organisation?---The Technical Committee of Umkonto We Ziswe,

And was it a Regional or a union–wide Technical Committee?---No, I understood it was a local Technical Committee.

Local?---I understood this from my knowledge of affairs in Durban, that there was also a local Technical Committee there.

And first of all, where was the first meeting of this Technical Committee?---Well, without exception, all the meetings which I attended of that Technical Committee, were held at the home of Mr. Leviton in Empire Road.

How did you know you were appointed to this Committee?---Well, I was invited to attend a meeting, I think, by Mr. Kitson.

And then you just went on attending these meetings?---Yes.

There was no sort of formal appointment?----No formal appointment.

I take it there is no formal way of joining the organisation of M.K. ?---I would say one is generally approached privately, one is sounded out in a security conscious way, and then later/one is considered suitable, one

-205 -     L.S. GAY.

becomes a member,

I mean there are no forms to be signed, or ...?---No

Or membership cards or anything like that?---No, no.

And what about fees, do you have to pay any? ---You are referring now to M.K.?

Let us deal with that for the moment?---No, M.K. you have no fees at all.

And in regard to the Communist Party, is the procedure the same - no formalities?---No formalities, but on a monthly subscription, which is based, it was based on the level of income.

So, what fees did you pay in the Communist Party?---My personal contribution was £4 a month.

Who were the members of the Technical Committee? ---At the time that I joined the Technical Committee, it was under, it appeared to me, the Chairmanship of Jack Hodgson. I think his correct name is Percy, Percy

Hodgson. The other members were Mr. Kitson, Mr. Matthews and Mr. Leviton.

Now Mr. Matthews, is he in Court?---Mr. Matthews is in Court, fourth from the left.

Accused No. 4.  AND what was the function of the Technical Committee?----This was not defined to me when I joined it, but from my observations of what went on, it was concerned with the acquisition of a working practical knowledge of explosives and accessories.

And approximately how often did the Technical Committee hold meetings?---On an average, between weekly and every fortnight. With regard to personnel, let me add

-206-     L.S. GAY,

that after his travels abroad, Arthur Goldreich came to a number of meetings.

Now, had you met Accused No. 4, Mr. Matthews before you met him on the Technical Committee?---No, not before I met Mr. Matthews on the Technical Committee.

And Hodgson, had you met him before?----I think Mr. Turok introduced him to me when I was in the C.O.D. office one day.

You had not known him as a member of another organisation?---Mr. Hodgson?

Yes?---No, not at that stage.

And Mr. Levitan, had you met him before?----No, I only met him when I went to Technical Committee meetings at his home. I did not know him as Mr. Levitan at that stage, I simply knew him as Archie.

And these people you have mentioned, No. 4 - Matthews, Levitan, Hodgson - did they attend the meetings regularly with you?---Regularly, yes.

And did you have a chairman?---Well, as I said, Mr. Hodgson appeared to act in that capacity.

No formal appointment?---Well, not to my knowledge.

And what business was discussed at these meetings?---Mr. Hodgson, at one stage, used to talk about forthcoming projects. He would seek technical advice, for example, at one meeting he mentioned that a sabotage attempt was going to be made against a Sasol storage tank, and one of the questions he raised with the Technical Committee, was did we think it advisable that personnel enter the premises, and strike a match for the purposes of igniting a fuse, an explosive fuse.

Just a minute - you are going a bit fast for me now. You mention Sasolburg, my lord I think is 7.

You say Mr. Hodgson, said there was going to be an attempt on the Sasol storage...?---Petrol storage tank.

AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR TEA. .

ON RESUMING:

LIONEL STANLEY GAY, still under oath

EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS (CONTINUED):

Mr. Gay, we are still dealing with discussions on the Technical Committee. You had mentioned, I think, that Mr. Hodgson referred to a sabotage act to be performed on the Sasol storage tank?---Yes.

Do you know whether anything eventuated there?---

Was there any report back?---Yes, an attempt was made, but Mr. Kitson explained this later, because of the peculiar construction of the tanks, the effort was not successful, but the explosion did take place.

You say Mr. Kitson reported?---He later explained the peculiar construction of the tanks.

And was that at a Technical Committee meeting?  ---No, I think,...well, he might have explained it there, but I can recall him also explaining it this year.

At another meeting?----At another meeting.

The meeting of another committee?---Yes.

Well, we can perhaps get back to it later - do you remember any act of sabotage discussed with the Technical Committee?---Yes, Mr. Hodgson reported that an attempt had been made on the Old Synagogue in Pretoria,

the site of Nelson Mandela's trial, and this was reported as a failure.

My lord, that has been referred to - it is 35. Now, at this stage Mr. Gay, were you doing anything active for the Technical Committee?---Sooner or later, Mr. Hodgson approached me and asked me to turn my attention to the construction of a timing device - let me try and outline the problem involved. At the time M.K. had at their disposal the use of dynamite and accessories, and the kind of accessories that they had at the time, were fuse, safety fuse as far as I remember, and the kind of detonator which goes with safety fuse.

What is that called?---Detonator. Now, the problem which we had to solve, or we were asked to try and solve, was to construct a device which would enable the fuse to be ignited after a suitable delay, and hence of course, the fuse would ignite the detonator and set off the explosion. The basic problem was to develop a timing device, and I did turn my attention to this problem.

And did you develop anything?---Well, I brought up a timing device which made use of three large torch cell batteries, the usual torch cell batteries, and a parking meter which was supplied to me by either Hodgson or Mr. Levitan. I understood that Mr. Levitan had a number of parking meters under his guardianship at that stage. So, I did construct a timing device, which I passed on to Mr. Hodgson.

Yes, did you receive any assistance in the construction of this timing device?---No, that I built by myself. Let me add though, that the timing device, the electrical timing device was not of much use without some other device to ignite the fuse, and as far as I remember, I did not attempt to develop, what I tried to call an ignition device at that stage, this intermediate device.

I wonder, if you will have a look at this exhibit before Court, .Exhibit 1 , Does that agree in any way with the timing device that you constructed?---Yes, the principle is the same, the parking meter is used as a delay switch which closes a circuit, and of course, current passes through a fuse, blows the fuse, and ignites or is supposed to ignite a mixture a combustible mixture.

Well, is that as far as you got with the     timing device?---Yes, at that stage, that was as far as I got. I do not associate this particular one with the one I built.

No, it is just the same principle though?----The same principle.

Is that the main activity on your part, whilst you were on the Technical Committee?---I think I was also engaged at the time, of looking through the Technical literature to see which information I could pick up on the subject of explosives.

Did you, at this stage, develop any explosives or not?---No, I did not turn my attention to the developing of explosives at that stage - purely the collection of information.

Now, did you at this stage, know what the relationship was of the Regional Committee with any other committee?---The Technical Committee?

Technical Committee, I am sorry?---It was quite clear that the Technical Committee served the needs of Umkonto We Ziswe.

Yes, and was there a higher committee, did you know, at that stage?---No, I was not familiar with the structure of the organisation at that stage.

Now, before we get to your next committee, were you at this stage concerned'with a radio transmitter, the building of a radio transmitter?---Yes, again I am not sure of the exact sequence of events, but it was soon after my joining the Technical Committee, that Mr. Hodgson raised the problem of radio communications, and for this purpose, I was introduced another gentleman in Johannesburg, Mr. Cyril Jones, and I think probably about Sep-tember of that year, we ... or rather I joined Mr. Jones, and together with Mr. Matthews and Mr. Hodgson, we began work on the problem of radio communication.

Is this radio communications generally, or is this a transmitter?----No, not generally, in the sense of point to point communications, but a transmitter for the purpose of voice broadcasts.

Transmitter - were you given a purpose for this transmitter, what purpose it was to be used for?---Yes, it was clear that if the transmitter ever worked satisfactorily, it would be used for the purpose of political broadcasts.

Political broadcasts?---Political broadcasts, yes. In connection with M.K.?---Uh      

Or did you not know?----No, I did not know that. As I well as I see events now, the M.K. is part of .... was part of a broader organisation, and the broadcast would not be used specifically for M.K. ends, but broader political ends.

Well now did you set about building this transmitter?---Well, when I joined I knew Mr. Matthews and

-210-     L.S. GAY.

Mr. Hodgson already. For this purpose, I went to Mr. Jones' home, and it was clear to me that this problem had been receiving attention already, and there I found a power supply and an old war surplus transceiver on which somebody had been working before.

Yes and then?---Well, it became clear to me after a few attempts, to get the ex-army set going, that if we were to make a success, if we were to achieve success, it would be better to make a fresh start and build up a complete new set, So after salvaging a few components for the ex-army set, I disposed of it, and then I began building a new set.

A new transmitting set?---Yes.

Now, did you buy the parts yourself?---I bought some of the smaller parts, such as resistors which I thought such common object would not raise any difficulties, but by and large, I used to present my requirement to Mr. Hodgson and he used to present the goods.

And these articles that you bought, did you pay for them out of your own pocket, or were you refunded?---     No, the money was provided for that purpose.

And did you eventually assemble a transmitting set?---Yes, I eventually assembled a transmitting set which is before the Court. Yes, I will come to that in just one moment. Where was the transmitting set set up?---Usually all our tests were conducted at the home of Mr. Jones.

And then later?---And then later, I undertook some tests at Rivonia.

And who assisted you with the tests you carried out at Rivonia?---At Rivonia, Joe Slovo provided

- 212-     L.S. GAY.

transport - he gave assistance in that sense, but from a technical point of view, I did not have much assistance, but I received a minor assistance from one of the accused, whom I knew as Bri-Bri, Accused No. 1, and for the purposes of erecting aerials, I received assistance from some of the African labourers on the farm.

So, was No. 1 Accused at Rivonia then, when you did your tests?---Let me say that for the purposes of testing the transmitter, we went to Rivonia, perhaps either at the end of May, or a little earlier of 1963.

Now, perhaps you can at this stage then, identify some of these – do you see Exhibit R.31 - could you tell us what that is Mr. Gay?---Yes, this appears to be a cable which was laid in the earth behind one of the outbuildings at Rivonia, for the purposes of providing a good earth connection in connection with the testing of a particular kind of aerial.

You did lay such a cable yourself, did you, at Rivonia?---With the assistance of Joe Slovo, and I think Bri-Bri assisted me with that project as well.

And .exhibit R. ?---Yes, I recognise this as the cable which I used to test the same kind of aerial.

At Rivonia ?---At Rivonia .

And R.28 then?---Yes, this is the power supply which was already available when I began work on this project. I did modify it later, but it was already there in basic form.

And was that taken out to Rivonia too?---Yes, I subsequently built a new power supply, a bigger power supply, a lot of the preliminary tests were conducted with that old one, but the later tests were conducted with the

-213 -     L.S. GAY

new power supply.

You used R.28 at Rivonia for the test? Have I got it right?---Not at Rivonia, no, previously at Mr. Jones' home.

And R.29?---This is an aerial coupling unit, which I constructed and which I tested at Rivonia. I might also have used it at Mr. Jones' home.

Did you have any assistance in constructing that, or was it done solely by yourself?---No, I built that by myself.     10

Now, do you know in fact, Mr. Gay, whether a broadcast did take place?---Yes, I am aware that a broadcast take place. I played a considerable part in it.

Did you...could you give us the details?---Yes. The broadcast was arranged to take place on the evening of the 26th of June of 1963, the venue chosen for this was the home of Mr. Levitan in Empire Road, the apparatus was housed in the hothouse next to the swimming bath, and on the 26th at about 5 o'clock, acting on previous arrangements, I went to this house in Empire Road, and assisted Dennis Goldberg with the erection of the apparatus, the erection of the aerial, the installation of the apparatus, and later that evening I returned to make final adjustments to the apparatus before the broadcast took place, but I was not present during the time that the broadcast took place itself. I left perhaps quarter of an hour before, to go home, and it was left in charge of Dennis Goldberg.

And was it successful or not?---Yes, it was successful.

Did you listen in?---Yes, I did listen in from

-214 -     L.S. GAY.

using a receiver in my home.

And do you know who spoke?---Yes, Walter Sisulu was the speaker.

And do you remember more or less the gist of the speech?---I do not remember too much of that particular broadcast. I do remember a certain stage, to the effect that since the State was mobilising, we must mobilise as well.

Now, after the broadcast, what happened to the transmitting set?---After the broadcast, the apparatus was dismantled, and left for a few days at Mr. Levitan's home, and it was subsequently placed in storage, under the direction of Mr. Levitan..

Where was it stored?---Initially, it was stored at Miller's Warehouse in Johannesburg

Did you take it there, or who took it?----I do not know who took it there. The storage at that stage, was under the direction, as far as I understood of Mr. Levitan.

Well, do you know who stored it there? You do not, you say?---I do not know who actually took it there.

And then what happened to it?---Later Mr. Levitan passed the documents on to me, and I took the apparatus out of storage early in January of this year. That is out of storage from Miller's Warehouse.  Mr. Jones assisted me there with transport, and the apparatus was taken to Mr. Jones' home....I am sorry, the apparatus was taken to Mr. Matthews' home,

That is No. 4 Accused?---Yes, and it was at this stage that Mr. Matthews constructed the boxes to house the apparatus. Following that, and again with Mr.

-215 -     L.S. GAY.

Jones' assistance, I took it to store it at Morkel's, and there I stored it under the name of R. Middleton. That was, I think, on the 17th of January, that we took it to storage at Morkel's.

That would be January, 1964, then?---Yes. When did you next see it?---I next saw the apparatus on the 19th of June of this year,

Is that after your detention?---No, no, prior to my detention,

Where did you see it?---Again with Mr. Jones' assistance, I took it out of storage on the 19th of June. I took it to my home, unpacked it, because I was interested in obtaining for further use, a part of it, which incidentally, was not packed with the other set, and after unpacking it, inspecting it, I passed it on to Mr. Matthews for safekeeping on the same evening - the 19th of June.

Now, I wonder - are there some of the exhibits before Court, which refer then to this first transmitter and which you say you gave to No. 4 Accused?---Yes.

Would you have a look at this ,exhibit No, 36. What is that Mr. Gay?---This is the new power supply which was constructed about Easter time of 1963. I built it.

You?----I constructed it,

And that was used in the 1963 broadcast, was it?---Yes.

Now, did you construct the box itself?---No, I understand that Mr. Matthews made the box.

And ...?---Before it was taken into storage at Morkel's.

- 216 -     L.S. GAY

The next exhibit No. 37?---This is the radio frequency section of the transmitter which was used for that broadcast.

Exhibit 31?---This is the modulator which I constructed, and which was used for the broadcast.

Now, Mr. Gay perhaps we can pass now to the next committee on which you served. You have told the Court that you were on the Technical Committee, probably about towards the and of 1962, was it?---I began serving on it, in about August 1962.

And what was your next appointment?---My next appointment was to a committee which was called the Logistics Committee, and which was set up towards, I think, the end of May of 1963.

Now, this of course, was also a committee of the M.K Was it or not?---I am not certain of that. I think it was, but its scope was broader.

Well, can you tell the Court first, how did it differ from the Technical Committee?---Well, the Technical Committee as I have explained, was concerned purely with explosives, acquisition of knowledge and practical working knowledge of the subject, and construction of devices. Now the Logistics Committee was set up specifically to consider technical requirements, guerilla warfare, and I use the word technical in a rather broad sense, because one of the personnel was concerned with political instruction, another member of the committee was concerned with medical aspects.

I take it you only have a Logistics Committee if you are waging a warfare, do you?---It was set up with that possibility in view.

- 217 -     L.S. GAY

And how did you come to be appointed to this? Anything formal told you?---I think it was Harold Wolpe who informed me that I was to serve in that committee. It might have been Goldreich though,

And do you know what happened to the Technical Committee, did that carry on as far as you know?---I do not know whether it continued, to exist. I doubt it, because ... well Arthur Goldreich came to a number of the last committee meetings which I attended, and he, Mr. Kitson and I, began serving on the Logistics Committee, and of course, Mr. Hodgson I think, was out of the way by then, and that would have left Mr. Matthews and perhaps Mr. Levitan. So, I do not think it continued to function.

Alright, now can we have the names first of the committee then, this new Logistics Committee?- It would be you?---Yes, Arthur Goldreich, No. 1 Accused, Mr. Kitson, Dennis Goldberg and Dr. Festenstein (?)

Now, I think you have mentioned everybody except Dr. Festenstein before; have you?---Yes.

Was this the first time you had met Dr. Festenstein?----Yes, that was the first time that I met Dr. Festenstein, at the first meeting of the Logistics Committee.

Did each member of the committee have a special task to do?---Yes, Arthur Goldreich and No. 1 Accused appeared to me to be co-chairmen, I was not sure of this. They acted in that capacity, they were not concerned with particular technical aspects, Mr. Kitson was given the task of preparing a political training programme for local recruits.. Dr. Festenstein was concerned with the drawing up of a list of medical requirements, on that aspect.

- 218 -     L.S. GAY

WITNESS: Dennis Goldberg was concerned with explosive devices. In particular hand grenades and land mines, and I was concerned with broader aspects of communications - radio communications.

Was Dr. Festenstein a medical doctor?---I did not know much about him at that stage. I subsequently learnt that he was a research scientist in the medical field.

Now, did this committee hold regular meetings ? ---It met on an average, I think of about once a week. All the meetings were held.

And did the members attend regularly?---Yes, members attended regularly.

And where were the meetings of the Logistics Committee held?---At Rivonia.

At Rivonia?.---Yes, the home of Mr. Goldreich.

Now, what was discussed at these meetings?---Initially, I think, it was Mr. Goldreich who presented the broad aspects of the work of the committee.

Could you give us a few details? What did he say there?---It was his...it was understood that guerilla warfare was being considered. In particular, a consideration of actively starting guerilla warfare in four regions of the Republic - that was being considered, and to this end, the Technical Committee was set up to advise on aspects of that proposed plan.

And did you understand that the Logistics Committee was the ... a Union one, the head committee as it were, for the whole Union, or were there other Logistics Committees?---No, I understood that this was one committee of its kind, concerned with technical aspects on a national

- 219 -     L.S. GAY

scale.

Alright, you have told us the main objects were set out, I think, you said by Mr. Goldreich, was it? ---Yes, as far as I remember, I said that No. 1 Accused appeared to act as co-chairman wiTh Mr. Goldreich, but I think the essential outline of the work of the committee was given to us by Mr. Goldreich.

Well, could you give us some specific discussions apart from the general discussions?---Yes, where applicable, the persons involved, were asked to consider The technical requirements for a defined period of guerilla warfare, I am not sure what period was given. This was applicable in the case of Dr. Festenstein and Dennis Goldberg, in the sense that they were asked to consider requirements in their fields, of certain number of men for a particular period. I think the period was six months, I am not certain.

Well, perhaps we can deal with you - what did you have to do?---My task as presented to me, was to draw up a list at that stage, of requirements for the purposes of establishing radio communications between the National High Command and four Regional Commands and communications between the Regional Commands themselves, and further still, to establish, communications from the regional Command level, down.

Well, I wonder if you would have a look at this document R.33? The evidence will be this was found when the police arrested the accused in the previous trial at Rivonia, my lord. Was that document prepared by you Mr. Gay?---Yes, I prepared this document in my capacity as a member of that Logistics committee, my lord.

-2 -     L.S. GAY.

Perhaps you could just read its outlines? ---"Data required from the U.K….."

MR. BIZOS informs the Court that the documents will not have to be read if they are used to establish whether guerilla warfare was going to be waged or not. (After discussion with Mr. Masters, it is agreed that the documents will not have to be read.)

BY THE COURT TO MR. BIZOS: So, do you admit the contents of the documents?---I admit the contents of the documents, yes, my lord.
BY THE COURT T0 MR.HARE: And what is your position Mr. Hare?---My position is the same, my lord.

EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS CONTINUED):

Well, then you need not read it out Mr. Gay? ---Let me just add in connection with this document, that it was suggested to me that four transmitters be made available for the purposes of propaganda broadcasts in four regions of the Republic, and the information listed here is what I required for that purpose.

Now, will you have a look at document R.59?  Will you just explain to the Court what that document deals with Mr. Gay?---It is headed The Supply of Electric Power in South Africa-. This is a document which I drew up at the request of Harold Wolpe. The information was taken from an annual report of the Electricity Supply Commission, and gives a summary of the distribution of electrical power and generation of electrical power in the Republic of South Africa.

I would just like to make it clear - it was actually typed by you on your own typing machine?----Yes, I typed it on my typewriter.

- 221 -     L.S. GAY

And having prepared these documents, to whom did you hand them Mr. Gay?---I passed this document on to Harold Wolpe.

And the other one as well?---No, the previous document, that I passed on to Arthur Goldreich, at a meeting of the Logistics Committee.

And we might just deal with this one point before we go on - at the time of the Rivonia trial, were you somewhat concerned that these documents were in the hands of the State or the police?---Yes, I was concerned about this question, yes.

And what happened about that?---I reported this to Mr. Kitson. I told Mr. Kitson that I had prepared a document on the distribution of electric power. I thought that the other document had already left Rivonia, and following this report of mine to Mr. Kitson, Mr. Kitson suggested that I dispose of my typewriter. He added that he had access to a number of documents available to the Rivonia defence, and that he had seen a copy of this document amongst them. He advised me to dispose of my typewriter.

He had gone through the exhibits in the Rivonia case, and he advised you that this document was there?---At least some of the exhibits.

And so what steps did you take then in regard to your typewriter?---That was some time this year that I made that report, and I later handed my typewriter on to Accused No. 3 with the request that he dump it for me.

And did you get any compensation for this?---Yes indeed, I received some R50 for this purpose - compensa-

- 222 -     L.S. GAY

tion for the loss of the machine.

Who gave you the R50?---Mr. Kitson.

Do you know whether the machine was, in fact, dumped or not?---I am not aware of that.

Now, in regard to maps, did you ever obtain maps for any purpose?---Yes, it was Harold Wolpe who presented me with a list of four or five maps, regions of the republic. The regions were specified. He gave me the code numbers of certain maps which he required, and I went into a shop in town and bought them for him.     

Were these large maps, or detailed maps?----Maps approximately three feet square, I am not sure of the scale, but perhaps one in  ,000 or one in 100,000 - I am not sure. I purchased the maps, and passed them on to Wolpe.

Were these also required then for the same purpose - that is the proposed guerilla warfare?---I was not aware of this, but I can think of no other purpose.

Alright. Now, was there another transmitter built by you? We are in 1963 now?---Yes, I did build another transmitter.

Well, how did that come about Mr. Gay?---Just prior to the Rivonia raid, Mrs. Ruth Slovo called on me, another broadcast was contemplated at that stage, by Kathrada, but I think all the persons realised that the transmitter already in existence was not very satisfactory, in the sense that one had to have available a source of 2 volt A.C. power, and of course, this involved the use of premises of some kind, quiet premises, and Mrs. Slovo suggested that I embark on the construction of a

- 223 -     L.S. GAY

portable transmitter, which I did,

You say that was Mrs. Slovo?---Mrs. Ruth Slovo,

And did she mention the name of any person who might assist you?---No.

Alright, we can deal with this a bit later, the actual construction - do you remember you say it was after Rivonia did you say that she approached you?---No, I think this was just prior to the Rivonia raid.

Well, you did not do anything on the building of the transmitter till somewhat later, did you?---Soon afterwards, I began building it, but I proceeded very slowly. I was reluctant to have a built-up transmitter in my home at the time.

Now, you have told us you are on the Logistics Committee, you have given us a brief outline of what went on there, then we have the Rivonia raid - that was about July, 1963, was it?----Yes, early July of 1963.

Well, will you take up the story from there?

Or what happened?---Yes, soon after the raid Mr. Kitson called on me, he asked me if I wanted to quit. I was not quite sure what he meant at the time, and I stayed, of course I stayed in the country, and very little - well, for me personally, nothing took place, except perhaps at that stage, further attempts of mine to build a new transmitter, but I was not in contact with any personnel, and towards the end of 1963, Mr. Kitson called on me again. He might have called on me an additional time before, but towards the end of 1963, he called on me to inform me that a new National High Command had been set up and that I was a member of it.

- 224 -     L.S. GAY

Just before we go on - had you known of the existence of a National High Command, while you were on the Logistics Committee then?---Yes, of course, this had been mentioned in connection with the communications requirements.

Alright, so did the new National High Command hold a meeting?---Yes, I think the new National High Command was set up just before the Rivonia trial began, when Mr. Kitson came to see me to inform me that I was a member of it, we made arrangements for the first meeting to take place.

Alright, can we have the members first of the new National High Command?---Yes, I got to know who the members were at the first meeting, I did not know before that. Mr. Kitson brought two other persons to my home to attend the first meeting. The gentleman I know as Bri-Bri And Mr. Chiba, no. 3 Accused.

Well, where did this first meeting take place?---At my home, all meetings of the new High Command took place at my home until about mid-April of this year, with one exception - a meeting which was due to be held at my home, was not, because... was not held there, because I had an unexpected visitor, Instead of meeting there, we drove about town, and discussed our business in the car.

You say until about mid-April all the meetings were held at your house - how frequently were the meetings held?---Until our last meeting on the 17th of June of this year, I would say at an average of about every 22 weeks.

And were all the members regular in their

- 225 -     L.S. GAY

attendance?  Any absentees?---There were three occasions on which one or more persons were absent.  Do you want details?

Yes?---After what I understood to be the assassination of an Indian informer, Mr Chiba did not attend a meeting.  Later, this was after mid-April, Mr. Kitson was ill on one occasion, and on that occasion No. 1 Accused also failed to come to the stipulated point, for the purposes of attending the meeting, and there was one further occasion just before the Rivonia trial came to a conclusion, No. 1 Accused was again absent, because I think, of a system of road blocks set up at the time.

As far as you can remember, those were the only occasions when members were absent?----Yes, just three occasions.

Now, you have mentioned No. 1 Accused before, and No. 2 Accused. What about No. 3 - was this the first time you had met him?---Yes, that was the first time that I had met No. 3 Accused.

And how was he introduced to you?---At that stage, I knew him as George.

Now, take your first meeting Mr. Gay - what was discussed there? This new committee, what is it functions, what is its aims, and so on?---The first meeting Mr. Kitson said that we comprised the new National High Command, and that we were constituted as an autonomous body. He used the word autonomous, although later it was clear that we were subjected to at least, one directive from political leadership.

But at this stage he described it to you as an autonomous body?---Yes.

-226 -     L.S. GAY.

Yes?---Which had as its purpose the ... well, he said at the first meeting, that we must carry on with the job as best we can, and it was clear to us that the job was the direction of the activities of the Umkonto We Ziswe.

And their activities were?---Of the organisation known as Umkonto We Ziswe.

And their activities were?---At this stage, it had been reduced to sabotage.

And what about the guerilla warfare, was that shelved at this stage?---Yes, the new National High Command did not discuss guerilla warfare, not as a possible plan of action. There might have been an occasional theoretical discussion, but nothing in the sense of a plan.

And did you know or were you told what the policies of the previous High Command had been?---No, Mr. Kitson did not outline these at the meeting, but I personally was familiar with some of the plans of the previous High Command.

Well, what were you thinking of there? You say some of them?---Do you want me to?

If you would yes?---Outline the principles?

Please, yes?---Well, I understood that the guiding principles of the old High Command was respect for life and I furthermore understood that the old High Command approved of each target that was proposed to sabotage. I am trying to draw your attention to this - that the old High Command had as a policy, that they had to approve of targets. That is what I understood.

Well, what about the new High Command then?  You have mentioned two points - the one was the respect for

-227 -     L.S. GAY.

life. I take it you mean there that sabotage did not endanger lives - is that the point?---Yes, with the exception that any sabotage might involve life, but this probability was considered very remote under the policy of the old High Command, but ...well, at an early meeting of the High Command, Mr. Kitson raised the question of informers.  This was probably the first meeting of the new High Command. I think he argued that every young revolutionary organisation had to contend with this problem, and he was in favour of their being eliminated as an example to others.

Did he put this to a committee then?---Yes.

And what was the committee's views?---This proposal received the immediate support of Bri-Bri, No. 1 Accused, and Mr. Chiba, No. 3 Accused. I agreed with this what I call historical appraisal, but regarding this matter as one which should receive attention of the political leadership, I made the suggestion that the matter be referred to them for decision. However, we first took a decision in favour of that policy, but I think this decision was referred to political leadership for their consideration as well, but we first decided in favour of that policy.

Well, you introduced this political leadership now, so it might be as well if we just dispose of it - you say there was a body then above the National High Command?---Yes, either at the first meeting of the High Command, when reference was made to the political leadership or later, Mr. Kitson turned to me and said "You might as well know who they are", and he mentioned the names "Bram Fischer, Hilda Bernstein, Ivan Shadbrooke".     

Did you over, yourself, have any contact with

-228 -     L.S. GAY.

the political committee, or whatever you call it?---Not with these three people, but I had cause at a later stage to have another meeting with Ruth Slovo, she came to see me, and she came and told me, she said to me that the others do not know who you are, so I have come to see you to find out your opinions of the working of the new National High Command. By virtue of her saying "The others do not know who you are", and by virtue of her coming to see me in connection with the work of the new National High Com- mand, I presumed that she had become a fourth member concerned with the direction of the activities of Umkonto We Ziswe.

Well, we seem to be going off at tangents, but first we can just finish this off too Mr. Gay - what was her suggestion to you? Did she make any suggestions at that stage?.----Mrs. Slovo?

Yes?---She had a number of criticisms to make, One of the suggestions was that ... well, let me just go back a little before her visit.

Yes?---At one of the meetings of the new National High Command, Mr. Kitson brought a suggestion from political leadership, I understood, to the effect that our body be enlarged to five members to ... it was suggested that the gentleman I knew as Mac, Accused No. 5, join the new National High Command. Now this suggestion……did not receive sympathy from Mr. Kitson and Bri-Bri. They were completely opposed to the idea, but they were in favour of using Mac as political instructor. That is as a person who would give political instruction to Umkonto We Ziswe personnel. Now, when Mrs. Slovo came to see me, she said that either we used Mac as they wanted him used,

- 229 -     L.S. GAY

that is as a member of the new National High Command, or else we would not have his services at all.

And just to finish it off, did you make a report then about this to...?---Yes, naturally I reported her visit to my colleagues in the High Command, and Mr. Kitson and Bri-Bri were very annoyed about this. They were annoyed because Mrs. Slovo had come to see me, and had thus gone round the normal channel of communication, and Mr. Kitson said that he would take steps to see that she did not come and see me again. She had intended to come to see me again, because she sought information on numbers of personnel in the M.K. and the distribution, I did not have too much information at my fingertips, and she was to come back, and get some more information, but she did not pay a second visit.

Now, perhaps we can get back to the point we were discussing - we were discussing this question of informers - you said that the committee agreed that informers should be killed, I think is what you said?---Yes.

And then it was that this question of the political committee arose. As far as you know, no action was taken following this?---At a later meeting, Mr. Chiba reported that he knew the whereabouts of an Indian informer and he put it to the High Command "What should I do about it". And a decision was taken that he be eliminated.

Well, what about the discussion with the political group? You said this was to be referred to the political leadership?---Well, that was my suggestion. I do not remember Mr. Kitson saying specifically that he had referred it to them, but at a later stage, Mr. Kitson brought a directive to the National High Command, that is a

-2  -     L.S. GAY.

directive from the political leadership, to the effect that no action should be taken against informers, lest the chances of the Rivonia accused be prejudiced. Now when Mr. Kitson brought this directive, I think he passed a critical comment, referring to the change in policy. I am not certain of that, but the impression I got was that the matter had been referred to higher authority, that it had been reproved and then later, we decided against taking action.

Yes, well we had started off by saying what the policy of the old National High Command was, and you had mentioned this respect for life, and then I was asking you whether this committee of yours, the new National High Command, carried on the same policy - then you mentioned this. Is there any other way in which the policy of the new National High Command, failed to conform with what you understood to be the policy of the previous High Command?---Yes, another decision which we took was to the effect that groups, that is M.K. groups, should be self-sufficient, and by this was meant that they were to be in a position to manufacture their own explosive devices, and they were also expected to choose their own targets, and to execute sabotage at a time which they considered favourable.

Anything else?----Yes, another decision which we, the High Command took, was of the effect that groups should endeavour to arm themselves. This I understood to be for the purpose of protecting themselves, least they were confronted by police during the performance of sabotage activities.

Now, was the state of the organisation, that is

- 231 -     L.S. GAY

the M.K. organisation, discussed at this netiv National High?---Yes, at an early meeting, Bri-Bri, No. 1 Accused, reported on the state of the organisation. At that stage, I think, he mentioned a figure of 100 personnel available, and I think most of these were on the Reef and Pretoria at that time.. I am not sure whether, at that stage, we were in contact with personnel in other centres. later this year, Bri-Bri again reported on the state of affairs, and the figure had risen to some 500 personnel, which I understood, were located in approximately seven centres, including a number of rural areas.

Would No, 1 be reporting on the African personnel?---Yes, Bri-Bri reported on the existence of African groups.

Any other reports from him then?---Yes, No. 3 Accused, Mr. Chiba, reported the existence of a number of Indian groups. As far as I remember, located in Johannesburg, and Johannesburg only.

Just one point I am not clear on - you did talk about decisions of High Command, that you took in your committee. Do you know how these were passed on down to the lower ranks, rank and file?---Yes, it was clear to me that Bri-Bri was in contact with African personnel and that Mr. Chiba was in contact with Indian personnel.

And were there no Europeans functioning, as far as you knew?---Not to my knowledge.

As far as you know then, or did you expect Accused Nos. 1 and 3 to pass on the decisions of the High Command to their respective groups?---To a limited number - for security reasons they would not have been in contact with many, but we would have had intermediate personnel,

-232-     L.S. GAY.

Did you know what the organisation was below you?---At this stage, as far as I knew, it consisted simply of groups.

AND what was the report? That the M.K. functioned smoothly or, what was the... This is now when you were on the new High Command?---I do not quite understand the question?

Well, we had had the Rivonia raid, and then you had been appointed to this new National High Command, and reports were being made about the various aspects --what I asked you was, did anybody report on the state of the organisation, whether it was still intact and functioning properly?---Well, I have already outlined the reports of personnel, and the distribution. I think that is all I can say on the question.

Alright, it does not matter then. Well, let us turn to another subject now -  finance, Was that discussed?---Finance as such, was not discussed, but we had cause to use money for projects, various purposes, and Mr. Kitson, used to be...was the channel through which     money was brought to the High Command and distributed to the other three members.

And what was your position? Did you ever receive any finance?---Yes, I received money, essentially for radio requirements, but I also used money in connection with explosives.

And did you have any fixed amount?---I usually had a floating sum of about  £50 which I had available, but for special projects, I would simply request...make a request if I needed more.     

And you would make your request to No. 2, you

-233-     L.S. GAY.

say?---To Mr. Kitson, yes.

Now, you have told us Mr. Gay, that there was a discussion about, informers during the Rivonia trial. Was there any discussion about acts of sabotage, to be performed during or after the Rivonia trial?---Well, while the trial was in progress, it was considered desirable that sabotage take place, so that the State would realise that the organisation still existed, This was prior to mid-April, when the directive was sent out that sabotage should take place, but to my knowledge, little did take place at that stage,

Well, is this during the trial?---During the trial, at an early stage, yes.

And after the trial?---Yes, a decision was also taken that a few days after the trial, a sabotage should take place, and a directive was sent out to this effect.

And did you receive any report?---Yes, at a meeting ... what period are you referring to now?

Well, I was discussing whether there was sabotage, before, during or after, I think we got to after the Rivonia trial?---During the trial, a number of M.K. personnel were arrested in Pretoria. Ten personnel, I think, were arrested in connection with sabotage. I do not think all ten were concerned with a particular event, but I understood that an attempt was made to blow up an electrical sub-station in Pretoria. It was this event that led to the arrest of some ten personnel. That was one event.

Well, do you remember who made the report      about that`---Yes, Bri-Bri brought information to the High

-234-     L.S. GAY.

Command, to that effect.

Did he say whether he knew any of these people, or not?---He mentioned that his deputy was amongst the ten.

He did not mention his name?---He might have mentioned the name, but I do not remember it.

Yes?---And another attempt at an early stage, early this year, Bri-Bri reported at one meeting that a number of personnel, who were once antagonistic either towards A.N.C. or to Umkonto We Ziswe, as such, one or the other - a number of personnel, once antagonistic had come to him and were more sympathetic than before, and he reported that he had supplied them with some materials, I think he mentioned pipe casings. He had sup-plied these personnel with some material, and they had used it for sabotage. I associate this event with an attempt to damage the structure which supported an electrical railway cable, that is, the cable which supplies electric units with power.

AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH.

ON RESUMING:     

LIONEL STANLEY GAY, still under oath

EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS (CONTINUED):

Mr. Gay, you were dealing, I think, with a reported attempted sabotage in regard to electric cables, pylons in other words?---A cable which supplies electric power to electric units.

Now, do you know of any other reported sabotage acts? You have mentioned two now - do you re-member supplying one of the accused with acid at one stage? ---Yes, I do. I supplied acid to three of the accused.     

-235-     L.S. GAY

To Bri-Bri, to Mr. Kitson and to Mr. Chiba. I gave out the acid in that order - to Bri-Bri I gave acid rather early this year. To Mr, Kitson, a little later, and to Mr. Chiba -I give him acid on the 12th of June,

Did you tie that up with any act of sabotage?----Yes, well, on or about the 10th of June, we had a meeting at Mr. Kitson's home. It was at that meeting that Mr. Chiba reported, that one of the Indian groups had selected a target. I do not think he said what the target was at that stage. It was on the next Friday that I gave him the acid, and at our next meeting on June the 17th, Mr. Chiba reported that sabotage had taken place at the Vrededorp Post Office..

My lord, that would be Act 47. Mr. Gay, I do not think I have dealt with this point - do you know what ammunition or explosives M.K. had at this stage?---at this stage, to my knowledge, it had been reduced to the use of black powder, that is gun powder, and which was contained in pipe bombs, pipe containers for the purpose.

Did you know anything about the construction  of these pipe bombs?---Yes, it was at a meeting of the High Command, that it was decided to purchase some pipe threaded equipment in order to make pipe containers. This equipment was indeed purchased. Money was provided for that purpose, and at some stage later, it was housed at the residence occupied by Accused No. 5. That I know, because I think it was Mr. Chiba who said one day that Bri-Bri had got tired of staying in the township during the day, that he had come in and together with Accused No. 5 had threaded some pipes for the purpose of making gunpowder bombs.

-236-     L.S. GAY

Do you know how these pipe bombs are constructed?----Yes, I have not seen a pipe bomb, but I understand that a pipe about 2 feet long is threaded at both ends, suitable fittings are screwed on to the ends. The pipe is filled with gun powder, and for the purpose of igniting the mixture, and in order to produce a suitable delay so that the personnel are able to get away from the site in time, so-called chemical fuses are used. For this purpose, sulphuric acid is placed in the capsule of some kind, I have not seen the capsules, but sulphuric acid is placed in the capsule, which is surrounded by Potassium(?) chloride and after a suitable interval of time, Mr. Chiba told me that in the case of the acid which I supplied him, the period was of the order of ten minutes after that period had elapsed the acid comes in contact with potassium chloride, and thus causes the explosion.

Now, at the meetings of the High Command, were hand grenades ever discussed?---Yes, at one meeting, Mr. Chiba reported that there were a number of Indian personnel who were prepared to go overseas. I understand that they had valid travel documents. The question arose as to what field these person...in what fields these persons should receive their training. This was discussed initially at my home, before the middle of April, and then later, at one of our meetings on the road, when we had no suitable venue to go to, I think we were parked next to the Zoo Lake when this question arose again. Mr. Chiba sought advice as to what fields these persons should be trained in. I personally suggested high explosives, with particular reference to certain chemical compounds as a detonating agent, and Mr. Chiba suggested field hand grenades.

-237-     L.S. GAY

Do you know whether, in fact, any arrangements were made to send recruits out?,---I am not sure whether these personnel left the country. That was not reported back by Mr. Chiba, but I think, I am not too sure of this, I think some finance was allowed for in connection with their trip.

Do you know whether attempts were made to recruit other people or not?---Locally?

Yes, for sending overseas?---No, at an early meeting of the High Command, we had decided that it was better to have personnel in the country, and this case of the Indians was, if they did indeed go out the country, the exception.

I see. One other aspect - did you ever discuss security measures on the High Command?----Yes, as a result of the arrest of persons in connection with sabotage in Pretoria, the electrical sub-station, it was Mrs. Ruth Slovo who told me when she called on me shortly before she left the country, that we should look into the question of security, and also in connection with security, again Mr. Chiba reported that there were on the Rand a number of personnel from Cape Town. They were non-Whites, and it was arranged for them to be taken out of the country. They were kept on the Rand for a number of weeks, and then finally at a meeting, Mr. Chiba reported that they had safely left the country. These personnel were taken out, because they were considered security risks.

-238-     L.S. GAY

Yes, I think there is one matter I left up in the air - you said that the first meeting with the High Command, was left at your house?---Yes, all the meetings held up until mid-April, with the exception of one.

And after that Mr. Gay?---After that, a number of meetings were held on the road, by which I mean that there was no suitable venue, and so we drove around town in a car, and discussed our business on the road. We stopped occasionally - Zoo Lake is one example. We also stopped on one occasion near the Hertzog tower, and then our final two meetings were held at Mr. Kitson's home, the last one on the 17th of June, and the second last, about a week earlier.

Now, in regard to these meetings on the road as you call it, where would you meet? Was there any particular spot chosen?---In the case of meetings, other than those which were held at my home, I was always picked up first in town by Mr. Kitson. Initially, outside Kirchoff's Seed Store, and for later meetings I was picked up outside the C.N.A. University Bookshop.

Is that opposite the University?---Opposite the University.   After I was picked up, we would proceed and pick up the other two gentlemen, who were usually together, and the site at which we picked them up varied. I would say the limits were towards the ''Witwatersrand Technical College, that is one end, and a point at Braamfontein is the other extremity, somewhat near Swanepoel's Butchery.

Do you know how No. 1 Accused used to arrive at the meetings, at the spot of the meeting?---No, 1 Accused, as far as I know, used to come by means of an African taxi.     

Now, let me pass on to the transmitter Mr. Gay.

-239-     L.S. GAY.

You told us about one transmitter you made did you make another one?  I think you told us that Mrs. Slovo asked you to make one?---Yes.

Somewhat reluctant...?---Yes, I eventually completed this transmitter. Yes, it is before the Court.

But just before we get there Mr. Gay, is the position then that Mrs. Ruth Slovo asked you to construct this?---Yes.

That was towards the beginning, was it, of when was it?---Well, she made  that suggestion just prior to the Rivonia raid, as far as I remember.

Yes?---And I proceeded during the next year to complete the task.

Well, when did you really get down to it in earnest?---Well, at an early meeting of the High Command, I would say in about February, I told Mr. Kitson that if another broadcast was contemplated, would he please let me know, because well, I would have to finish the transmitter, and secondly, I would require some assistance, and in particular, I needed certain components from Cape Town.

Did any of the accused supply you with parts required for the transmitter?---Yes. Somewhat late in June...no, not late in June - on the 10th of June, the ...we had a meeting of the High Command, on or about the 10th of June, I think it was Wednesday the 10th of June, and it was at that meeting that I told Mr. Kitson that I needed some assistance for the purchase of components, and he gave me some assistance, and furthermore, he suggested that Mr. Matthews, he suggested that Mr. Matthews would also assist me with the purchase of components.     

Well, perhaps we can deal with these items one

-240-     L.S. GAY.

by one - will you first have a look at Exhibit J.M. 257 (Handed to witness).

Do you recognise that sketch?---Yes, this was a drawing which I made of the box which I required to house the components comprising an aerial tuning unit, and I think I handed this document to Mr. Kitson, with the request that whereas it was written on the document, that it be either made a friend, or by a firm such as Hancroft.

Now, was this box, in fact, made?----Yes, this box was made.

Exhibit 84? Who made it, do you know Mr. Gay?---I presume it was made by Mr. Matthews, because it was he who delivered it to my home.

And did you, in fact, use or not?---No, I did not make use of that box.

And it was found by the police in your garage, on your detention, was it?---Yes.

Now, will you have a look at Exhibit 1, this 12 volt battery?---This was on the 10th of June, that I told Mr. Kitson that I required a 12 volt battery, for use in connection with another piece of the apparatus, and Mr. Kitson delivered this to my home on Saturday the 20th of June. He told me that he had purchased it, and that it was guaranteed in his name.

Is there any identification mark on there? Could you identify it?---It had a number on it, the letters are still here, HY, there was also a numerical number - I think the number was 888, and I removed that number myself.

And the number has been removed on that exhibit has it?---Yes, I drilled out the numbers, and filled the

-241-     L.S. GAY.

cavities with solder.

Now, this Exhibit 2, this battery?---At our meeting on the 17th of June, I told Mr. Kitson that I also required a 6 volt battery, I had not contemplated using an additional battery before, but I realised that I would require the second one, and this too, was delivered to my home by Mr. Kitson on Saturday the 20th of June, together with the other battery.

You did not remove the number on that battery? ----Yes. I did.     I do not remember what it was.

Now, will you have a look at this tape recorder Exhibit 11?----Mr. Kitson called at my office on Friday the 12th of June at about 5 o'clock, and it was on that occasion that I told him what kind of tape recorder I considered desirable for     the forthcoming broadcasts.  I recommended a (?), a Japanese made recorder, and having made previous enquiries. I suggested that it should be purchased at Etkins(?) At our meeting of the 17th of June, Mr. Kitson produced the tape recorder, this must be the machine.  He produced it on the 17th of June, and it was subsequently used for the broadcast.

Now, this Exhibit….? -Allow me just to say if the broadcast did indeed take place.

Well, we will deal with the actual broadcast just now. I would just like to get through these exhibits first Mr. Gay. Exhibit 2,.. can you tell me what that is?---This is the main unit of the second transmitting set which I built for the purpose of proposed second broadcast.

Exhibit 15l? ---This is the power supply which was designed and built for use with the section which we have just seen. I also bought it, and Mr. Matthews assisted

-242-     L.S. GAY

me with this project, In particular, he brought this to me, after - I presume that he had mounted the two transformers, and the capacitor, previously he had brought me two transformers and a chassis which was too small for the purpose, so I suggested that he buy a larger one, and that it would greatly assist me if he could mount the components. I recommended the purchase of these particular transformers, this particular type of transformer, and I also recommended the purchase of the rectifying diage(?) which are mounted underneath the unit. It was, I think, on the 12th of June when Mr. Kitson called on me, that I gave him a list of components which I required purchasing. On the list, I gave the specifications and the place where they could be purchased.

Was it painted as it is now, when you had it? ---Yes, when it was brought to me, it was painted as it appears now.

Do you know who painted it?---I presume Mr. Matthews painted it, I was not present.

Exhibit 3?---This is an instrument which is connected between the aerial tuning unit, and the aerial, and it is designed to indicate when the apparatus is correctly adjusted. I bolted it.

You bolted it yourself?---Yes.

Exhibit 8?---It is a pair of head phones which I bought for use during the second proposed broadcast, and it is for use in conjunction with this unit, which is basically a     …….

Exhibit 7?---Which is basically an elementary radio receiver.     
You built Exhibit 7, did you?---Yes.

-243-     L.S. GAY.

WITNESS: It was, incidentally, used with the first broadcast as well.

For the first broadcast?---Yes.

Exhibit 13?---This is a power unit which develops 2 volts alternating current from a direct current source. It was one of the items which appeared on the list which I passed on to Mr. Kitson on the 12th, and it was delivered to my home by Mr. Matthews. I presume he purchased it.

Exhibit 4?-These are three electric bulbs, connected in series, which could be used as a dummy load for testing the transmitter.

Well, were they used?---Yes, I passed them on to the personnel who were due to operate the transmitter on the evening of the 25th of June.

Exhibit 14?---This is an aerial tuning unit, which was used for testing the old transmitter, it was used for the first broadcast in 1963. It was not stored with the other items. Mr. Matthews kept this for me. I asked him to leave it out, because I intended modifying it. He subsequently passed it on to me again for use on the 25th of June, and I collected it. He passed it on to me when I called at his home on the evening of the 19th of June.

Exhibit 9?---This is one of the inter-connecting cables, which was lastly to connecting co-axial(?) plugs.

Exhibit 10?---I am not sure, but I....

You do not recognise that?---I think this was a copper cable which I gave to personnel due to operate the transmitter on the 25th of June, for use as an earth lead,

-244-     L.S. GAY.

Exhibit 11?---An insulator which I also passed on to the operating personnel.

Well, we have got enough parts to put the transmitter together now. But before we get to that, before the actual transmission took place, was there a discussion at the National High Command in regard to the speech? --Not a discussion, but at a meeting on the 17th of June, Mr. Kitson handed to Bri-Bri a text, he said "Consider this, delete what you do not want, but on no account add to it".

You did not read the transcript at that stage? ---No, I did not read the script ever.

Now, the broadcast was to be done on the 26th did you say?---No, on the evening of the 25th of June.

Alright, can we get now, to the events of the erecting of the transmitter? Would you tell the Court what happened?---At the meeting on or about the 10th of June, preliminary discussions took place on the subject of the proposed broadcast. Mr. Chiba was allotted the task of finding two personnel, two operating personnel, and also of finding a suitable site . On the 17th of June, the script was handed over at that stage. On the Friday the 12th of June, when I saw Mr. Chiba just after 5 o'clock, he raised the question of requirements of the site, noted the length of the aerial, and then on Sunday ... the Sunday preceding the 25th...Thursday the 25th, Mr. Chiba, called at my home, and he brought with him the tape recorder and the recording which was to be used that same week on the Thursday evening.

That is the tape recorder you have referred   to?---Yes.

-245-     L.S. GAY

Yes?---So he brought me the recording and the tape recorder on the Sunday, and there was an arrangement...

Just before you go on, did you listen to the tape recorder at that stage?---No, not at that stage, the following day, Monday. I might just say this at this stage, that after he brought the recorder and the recording to me, I accompanied him to a point in the main street of Parkhurst, the shopping centre, and there in his van parked more or less opposite the Post Office, we met  Accused No. 5, whom I knew as Mac, and there we discussed ..in the car we discussed...sorry, let me just say not there where the car was parked. We entered the car and drove away, then we stopped and discussed arrangements for the coming broadcast. I was in favour of instructing the operating personnel at some intermediate point, and not at the final site where the broadcast was due to take place. Mac, suggested that there might be a site where I could do this, an intermediate site, but the final decision was to the erect that I should accompany the operating personnel on the Tuesday evening to the operating site, which I understood to be the premises of a club, which is used by the Indian community in Johannesburg. Another arrangement made at that meeting on Sunday - the meeting where Mac, Mr. Chiba and I were present, was that Mr. Chiba would telephone me the next day, Monday, to tell me the time at which I was due to meet one of the operating personnel on the Tuesday. Mr. Chiba, did telephone me on Monday, and he gave me the time as 5.15. He said it had already been arranged that I should meet this gentleman outside the ----C.N.A.- --University-- Bookshop. His mode of dress was described to me, and I was told to greet him by

-246-     L.S. GAY.

saying "Hello Ganga", and he, the operating...one of the operating personnel, was in turn, instructed to greet me by saying "Hello Peter". On the Tuesday I went to this point at 5.15, and this gentleman...I saw the gentleman there, I greeted him in the agreed fashion, and from there we drove in a vehicle which he was driving, to my home, where we collected the apparatus to be used for the broadcast, well most of it. Inadvertently some of the cables were left behind. I met this gentleman at 5.15.  We drove home, we loaded the apparatus and he drove off, to the site, I did not accompany him at that stage, but I made an arrangement with him to meet him at 7p.m. the same evening, opposite the City Hall on the North side of the City Hall in Loveday Street.  He was somewhat late, and at about 7.45 I joined this gentleman. Ganga, and another young Indian gentleman who was with him. I am not sure of his name. I think I was introduced to him as Matthew. The three of us drove to the operating site, I am not sure how far from the City, but the drive took approximately 20 minutes, or thereabouts, and we proceeded to the grounds of this club. The grounds are somewhat large, and at quite a distance from the main buildings, perhaps 200 or 300 yards, there is a disused swimming bath and an old disused filter tank, and after climbing? driving through the fence and proceeding to this disused filter tank, we climbed into the top, and there we found most of the apparatus which had previously been taken by Ganga. This came as a surprise to me. I was initially under the impression that the apparatus was going to be kept under lock and key in the main building of the club.   Nevertheless, I proceeded to instruct these two gentlemen,

-247-     L.S. GAY.

Ganga and his companion, which I think was Matthew, on how to operate the transmitter. Unfortunately, we discovered that we had left some of the cables behind, and we could not do very much at that stage, and so we proceeded to my home where I gave him the cables, and where I also instructed them as best I could on paper, how to make the final adjustments. That was on the Tuesday evening, and the broadcast was due to take place on the evening of Thursday the 25th at 8 p.m. After these two gentlemen left my home, I did not see them again, and I      did not make an attempt to monitor the broadcast Thursday evening, because I had an appointment, and I do not know whether it did, indeed, take place.

You did mention earlier a tape recording, I think, or this tape recorder. Did you ever listen to the speech which was to have been broadcast?---Yes, I monitored that tape recording on the Monday, preceding the broadcast, party for technical reasons. I listened to the whole of it. The speaker was No. 1 Accused whom I knew as Bri-Bri, he did have ether names, but initially  I knew him as Bri-Bri. The broadcast opened with the word "Afrika", pronounced that way, and with a statement that as far as the A.N.C., I cannot quote the exact words, but the essence of it was that this was the A.N.C. speaking, on behalf of the whole of the Liberation Movement in South Africa. The duration of the speech was approximately 12/15 minutes. Another statement made was that we have not spoken to you for a year. The speaker referred to the station as Freedom Radio, then reference was made to the Rivonia trial. The speaker said that no tears were to be shed. That other leaders had come to the fore,

-248-     L.S. GAY.

leaders who were not known to the people. Reference was also made to the arrest during the past year of women and children. I think a reference was made to torture.  Later in the broadcast, reference was made to the struggle of the Algerian people, and a call was made that sabotage should continue. In that connection, the statement was made to the effect that although life would be respected, steps should be made to protect our own people. This latter statement, steps would be made to protect our own people, I associate with the decision of the High Command, to the effect that M.K. groups should endeavour to arm themselves, and a call was also made to the people to organise themselves into small groups and to be prepared for whatever call might be issued at a later stage. As one of the reasons advanced for the continuation of sabotage, it was stated that it was designed to influence the white electorate.

Is that what you can remember?---I think that is the essential content of the speech.

You mentioned somebody by the name of Ganga

.  You do not know his other name?--'--No, it was the first time on which I had met him, and I presume that the name Ganga was a fictitious pseudonym.

I wonder if you look at Exhibit '00', part 2, and see if you can see a photograph?---(Book handed to witness).

Just page through it and see?---I am not sure which photograph is that of Ganga, if any of them are.

Ganga was a young man - No. 36 might be, but I am not too sure. I think that is the only possibility -  No. 36.

-249-     L.S. GAY.

You appeared to be looking at two - was there some other one you were doubtful about?---I was looking at the young Indian gentleman.

Do you remember what one it was, this other one you were looking at?---19 Is the photograph of the young Indian, but I do not think that is Ganga

Well anyhow Mr. Gay, you are not certain?---I am not certain.

But you think 36?---That could be the photograph.     

Now, this one Exhibit '00.3', and see if you can see the young Indian that you referred to? If you have any doubt, let the Court know?---The other gentleman whom I knew as Matthew or I t hink I knew as Matthew, I am not too sure of that. It is No. 38.

My lord, 38, is Salim Mohamed Mayet - he appears in the body of the charge, and 36 is Ahmed Bhaban who also appears in the body of the indictment. Now Mr. Gay, would you mind just having a look at this revolver and holster, Exhibit 180 and 181 and 182 - do you recognise that pistol?---Yes, I do. The background to this ....

Just before you go on, why do you say you recognise it, is there any particular...?---Because I recognise a mark on it which is the result of the action of an abrasive wheel used to remove the number.

Did you actually remove the number your self?---Yes, with the assistance of another gentleman.

Not one of the people before Court?---No.

Alright, will you tell us what you know about it? --Let me just say as an introduction, I refer to a     

-250-     L.S. GAY.

private meeting with Mr. Kitson that could have taken place on one or two occasions....sorry, one of a number of occasions. He used to call on me at my office occasionally on a Friday evening at about 5 o'clock, and then I also had cause to see him privately after meetings, when I was usually dropped last, and then before meetings, because I was invariably picked up first. Now either privately or at a meeting of the High Command, Mr. Kitson told me that a friend of mine had a revolver, and that I was to get it from him.

Well, your friend is going to give evidence, I think Mr. Gay, so you can mention his name---The gentleman's name is John Gizelle(?).

Alright carry on Mr. Gay?----Well, after having received this instruction, I approached Mr. Gizelle and told him that I was to get this weapon from him, and he gave it to me, and at a subsequent meeting of the National High Command, I produced it and it was passed on to No. 1 Accused.

At the National High Command meeting?----Yes,  it was Mr. Gizelle who helped me remove the number with that small abrasive wheel.

Is that Exhibit No. 205?----And this I bought for the purpose, I passed it on with one or two cleaning brushes and some oil, and about  rounds of ammunition.

Now, was this in keeping with the policy of the National High Command that people should be armed?--This specific decision was taken to the effect that M.K. groups should endeavour to arm themselves.

And did No. 1 Accused what he was going to     do with it? Was there any discussion?---No, he did not, and

-251-     L.S. GAY.

I did not ask any questions. I presume it was required in connection with that decision.

Now, do you remember a meeting with a man who had come up from Cape Town?---Yes, again either privately or at an early meeting of the High Command, Mr. Kitson told me that there was a young man from Cape Town. He made an arrangement for me to see him for the purposes of obtaining from him technical information relating to the use of dynamite. I do not know whether Mr. Kitson stated at the time that it was in connection with dynamite in particular, but I in due course met this gentleman, at the end of February, at a time I think, which was just prior to the commencement of the academic year. I saw him on two occasions in February - on a Saturday afternoon or a Saturday evening, and the following Sunday. At first, for the purposes of the first meeting, I am not sure whether Mr. Kitson brought him to my home or not, but the gentleman came nevertheless, and I knew him as Guy, and he proceeded to tell me how to use dynamite in what I considered to be a well informed way. I did not know anything about the use of dynamite at that stage. Should I say, as an expert would use it, but from what the gentle-man Guy told me, I was under the impression he had received rather thorough training.

Yes, give us the details?---He told me for example, how to connect up a number of charges in a way that they could be detonated simultaneously, making use of that kind of cord, which I think is filled with a high explosive itself, called cordex I think, and he told me also how to make suitable electrical timing devices, and in this connection, he produced a cigarette box containing

-252-     L.S. GAY

either ten or twelve miniature batteries, which he said was the type of thing which would be used. The electrical supply would be used in connection with electrical detonators.  I do not know whether this young man was, indeed a member of Umkonto We Ziswe, and I did not know whether he was himself engaged on sabotage, but he certainly held received training. Another thing he told me was the way in which a small team of four or five persons would set about the task of laying charges and proceeding to test the circuit, and finally leaving the site in a certain condition. The essential of that part of the instruction was the teamwork aspect of it, and the division of labour. I made notes of what he told me. Another aspect of his instruction, was the number of dynamite sticks to be used on particular structures, in particular, he had working formulae which gave one a number     the number of, I think, half pound sticks of dynamite to be used on steel, concrete and wooden beams, and another point of his instruction, was the way in which one would lay charges inside a building or under a culvert. The method was applicable to both, for the purposes of disrupting either structure. Again, this was given in the form of working formulae in terms of the volume of the room and the size of cavities such as windows. I made notes of this information and when Guy called on me the next day, I went through it briefly with him, what I had written down. I did not write down everything, because I considered some of it to be somewhat too technical for our use, and also when I saw him on that second occasion, I gave him information in return. Information relating to the structure of petrol bombs. I told him also how to make good charcoal

-253-     L.S. GAY.

For use when making gun powder, and I told him also how to make a device which would drop petrol bombs after a period of about half an hour.

Did you ask him to purchase some things for you in Cape Town?---Yes, at that stage, I contemplated using a motor generator which was available on the war surplus market, and I gave him...I asked him to purchase a motor generator and buy it for me in Cape Town.

Would you have a look at Exhibit 'W' Mr. Gay? ---This is the list of the components, a copy of the list. I do not know whether I gave the list to Guy in person on that occasion, this particular one, or whether I had given this to Mr. Kitson somewhat earlier. I think the former is more probable that I did give this to Guy, together with the sum of R11-25. I gave him money on that occasion, and he subsequently returned it to me later.

You do not know this man's name? The man you have been referring to as Guy?---I did not know his name at the time of my arrest, but I do believe I know it now. Up to the time of my arrest, I did not know his real name.

Well, how did you come to know his name after your arrest? Had you been shown photographs, or have you seen him, or what?---At some stage or another it was suggested to me that he was Shalter(?) Cross.

But could you identify a photograph of him?---I would identify the man.

My lord, unfortunately we have not got a copy here now. Now, to get to another subject Mr. Gay - do you know a person by the name of Steve?---Yes, I know an Indian gentleman by the name of Steve. I met him at

-254-     L.S. GAY

THE High Command, again prior to mid–April. It was arranged that I meet Steve for the purposes of giving him some radio work to do. In that connection, I met Accused No. 5, Mac, outside the C,N.A. Bookshop on a Saturday morning at  10 o'clock.

Well, how did you come to meet him there?---This arrangement was made at a meeting of the High Command.

That you would meet No. 5 Accused there?---Yes.

Yes?---And after Mac picked me up at this point, we proceeded to a house in Doornfontein, where I met Steve.. I spent some time with him.

Was No. 5 present or not?---No, Accused No. 5 was not present during our discussions. I think he introduced me to the gentleman, Steve, when I arrived there, and later Accused No. 5, provided lunch for us and later still, he took me back to the point at which he picked me up.

Will you tell us in some detail what your discussion was with Steve?---Yes, I went to see Steve, in connection of the circuit of a transmitter which I was  going to suggest he build, and I also took with me a book on aerials, and I think the Aerial Amateur's Handbook(?). Yes, and there is another publication, a Phillips publication in which certain circuit was described, and I will go this just now. After some discussions with Steve, it was clear to me and to him, that he would experience difficulty in building the transmitter, so I suggested instead that he turn his attention to a power unit which was described in that Phillips publication, and I left that publication with him, and I presume he took it back to Natal from where he came. The other publications were

-255-     L.S. GAY

subsequently returned to me through Mr. Chiba, at a meeting of the High Command. Then there is something more in connection with Steve - just prior to the Rivonia raid, Mrs. Slovo told me that there was an Indian gentleman either up from Durban or in Durban, I did not know whether he was in Johannesburg at the time, and she asked me what work we could get him to do. Bearing in mind the requirements of the Logistics Committee, I suggested that Steve make a number of practice oscillators for the purpose of teaching persons the Morse code. I also recommended to Mrs. Slovo a particular circuit, to suggest to Steve. Now, when I met Steven in Doornfontein, he referred to practice oscillators. He said that he had experienced difficulty in obtaining some parts in Durban, and he also described the circuit of a number of practice oscillators which he had bought, but he did not have one with him.

Will you have a look at this Exhibit S.M.33? Can you tell us what it is first?---It is a list of components in my handwriting, the first item which appears on the list is a valve which is the type used in the transmitter. All the other components are those which Steve would have used had he bought the power unit which was described in the Phillips Publication. Steve had told me, as I just said, experienced some difficulty in obtaining components in Durban, and I mentioned this difficulty to either Mac or Mr. Chiba, and either Mac or Chiba told me that they might be able to obtain some components in Johannesburg for me, and to this end, I passed on that list to, I think Mr. Chiba, at a meeting of the High Command, together with the necessary sum of money.

-256-     L.S. GAY

That would be Accused No. 3 then. Just before we go on - did Steve introduce himself to you, and tell you who he was or what his business was?---Yes, he told me that he had been trained in the Morse code, and he stated his degree of proficiency in terms of normal speech and coded speech.

Did he say where he had been trained or not?--No, he did not tell me where he was being trained.

He did not say whether he was a member of M.K. or any other organisation either?---No, this he did not say, but I presumed that he was either a member of M.K. or a member of the Communist Party.

I wonder if you look at this album of photographs, Exhibit '00', part 2 and see if you can identify the person you have referred to as Steve?---Yes, photograph No. 33.

This person who is referred to my lord, is Nandhagopaul Naidoo, in the body of the indictment. Now, was it arranged by the High Command that you should meet anyone else?---Yes, after my meeting with Steve, it was      arranged that I should meet an Indian gentleman. Mr. Chiba reported that there was an elderly Indian gentleman who was prepared to do some technical work in connection with explosives for M.K., Umkonto We Ziswe, and it was suggested and arranged that I meet this gentleman for the purposes of telling him how to make black powder, and to this end, I again met Mac, Accused No. 5, at the same point outside the C.N.A. University Bookshop, on a Saturday afternoon, and from there we proceeded to the same house in Doornfontein. On this occasion, I was the first to arrive, and later Accused No. 5 showed the old gentleman

-257-     L.S. GAY

into the room in which I was, and again Accused No. 5 was not present for the interview, and I proceeded to tell this old gentleman how to make gun powder. I also told him how to make torch bulb ignitors, and I think I also told him how to make a compound called (?) Peroxide Fibre(?), and I also suggested that he embark upon an experimental project to prepare sodium nitrate from sodium carbonate, otherwise also known in one form as washing soda. Let me just say that sodium nitrate can be produced from washing soda and nitric acid, and sodium nitrate can be used either to make a form of black powder, or the two can be used to make ammonium nitrate, which can be used as a high explosive, and besides, the project of making sodium nitrate, I suggested that the old gentleman also proceed from there, and try and make ammonium nitrate.

Yes, is that the lot?---Yes, after that meeting, Steve, took me back to the point at which he picked me up.

You say Steve?---I am sorry, Accused No, 5,      Mac, and on the way I suggested that he take care of the technical requirements of the old gentleman. In particular, I suggested that he might require a balance, and nitric acid for that experimental project.

Did you report back to the High Command about the visit?---I do not remember reporting back, but I think I must have done so.

Well, did you hear anything else about this Indian gentleman?---Later Accused No, 3, Mr. Chiba told me, either privately or at a meeting of the High Command,   I should say privately, because I saw him on one occasion, at my home. That is an occasion other than that in

-258-     L.S. GAY

connection with the radio broadcast. Mr. Chiba reported, and I replied at a meeting of the High Command, that this gentleman had made some gun powder, and that he had had an accident in connection therewith.

You did not see him again?---The old gentleman – no.

Do you know his name Mr. Gay?---(No reply). Do you know this Indian's name?----No, I do not know his name, but I would recognise him. He was an elderly gentleman.     

Will you have a look through Exhibit '00' part 2?---Photograph on page 29.

My lord, the person identified is Amien Cajee     , who appears in the body of the charge. Mr. Gay, I wonder if you would look through this album, Exhibit '00' part 3, and see if you can see a photograph of the person you referred to as Guy?---Yes, a photograph of Guy appears on page 55.

My lord, the evidence will be that that photograph is of Shalter Cross. He is not mentioned in the indictment, Now Mr. Gay, in regard to pamphlets, propaganda and so on, did the National High Command have any-thing to do with the distribution or publication of pamphlets?---In general not, I think there is one exception. I am not too sure of this, but I think at one stage, something was printed for the specific distribution to M.K. personnel. I am not sure of this. In general, we were not concerned with publications. At one meeting of the High Command, Mr. Kitson suggested that I might draw up a short pamphlet on basic electrical work.  I never did so. The background to this suggestion was that

-259-     L.S. GAY

following failures with electrical timing devices, in 1962/1963, M.K. personnel were rather reluctant to yield to electrical devices. I had more confidence in them, and it was as a result of this, that the suggestion was made.

Well, do you know of a publication called "Freedom Fighters"?---Yes, I know of it.

Well, can you tell us what you know about it? ---First of all, on the 19th of June Mr. Jones assisted me with the collection of the stored radio from Morkel's. Now, on the way to town where I went to talk to Mr. Matthews about the storage of it, I suggested to Mr. Jones that he might keep the radio apparatus for me. He said no, he could not do that, because Hilda Bernstein came down to his house, either some Sunday mornings, or on Sunday mornings, I have forgotten the exact phrase he used. The implication was that he did not want anything else at his home. So ....

Well, she would go to his house Sunday mornings - did he say why?---I am sorry, to type the text of the "Freedom Fighter". So from that knowledge I associated with the Communist Party, I have other knowledge of it.  I have seen one copy which was passed to me by Dr. Doyle of the University, he passed me a copy, it was No. 2 I think, and after reading this, I in turn, passed it on.

And do you know who addressed the envelopes and sent them out?---Yes, again on the 19th of dune, after making an arrangement to this effect, Mr. Matthews called at my home that evening in order to collect the old radio transmitter, and I accompanied him to his home to help him load and unload it. I think it was on that occasion that he suggested to me, that he might have my

-259-     L.S. GAY

address to the list of addresses of person to whom, Freedom fighter was sent. He told me that it was sent out for example, to Dr. Brexley of the University, and I took this to be a suggestion that even if my address was found amongst of those person who had received this document, it would not necessarily be incriminating on the grounds that persons such as Dr. Brexley received it. Now, my reply to that was "No, please do not add my address to the list".

So you were not on the addressing list then? ---I presume not, following that specific request of mine.

You never yourself received a copy through the post then?---Not through the post, no.

Do you know who was responsible for this publication?---From what Mr. Jones told me, I drew the conclusion that Mrs. Bernstein was perhaps the editor of the journal.

Was this Mrs. Bernstein, Hilda Bernstein?---Yes.

And did you know her as a Communist?---It is a difficult question to answer - I had never been introduced to her as such. I did not know her. I was associated formally in only one Communist Party cell, which used to meet at Rivonia.

But you connected her Mr. Gay, not me?---I beg your pardon?

You connected the two?---Yes, well, of course, Mr. Bernstein was a member of my cell, From what I saw of No. 2, of the Freedom Fighter, I think it was No. 2, it was clear to me that it was Communist Party publication.

Alright, well we will leave it there - and what about Cyril Jones - do you know whether he was a

-260-     L.S. GAY

Communist?---Yes, Mr. Hodgson, Mr. Matthews, Mr. Jones and I, used to talk about the family, and that term we understood, or that I understood quite clearly, definitely, that this was a term which meant the Communist Party. Mr. Hodgson, introduced me to Mr. Jones as a member of the family.

Now Mr. Gay, seeing we have mentioned the Communist Party - do you know what links the Communist Party had with M.K. or with the old High Command, or new High Command?---Let me say that when I volunteered to join the organisation of Umkonto We Ziswe in Durban, I understood that it consisted of volunteers drawn from the Congress Alliance, and I presumed at that stage, that the leadership was also drawn from the Congress Alliance. Now, following the setting up of the Logistics Committee, I drew the conclusion that Communists were playing a rather big part in Umkonto We Ziswe, and again following my knowledge of the political leadership, at the time of the new High Command, the knowledge conveyed to me by Mr. Kitson about personnel, I come to the conclusion that Umkonto We Ziswe was directly under the control of the Communist Party,

Are you feeling tired Mr. Gay?---No.

Alright good. I think you have identified you say, you saw Freedom Fighter No. 2 - will you just have a look at this Exhibit 'KI' am just looking for a particular passage, which I remember, relating to border industries.

Well, perhaps you have got the number wrong? ----No, no. It is No. 2, first page, below the statement       "But both legs will kick again". It is a statement to the

-262-     L.S. GAY

effect that border industries bring exploitation to the reserves. They also bring the very thing the Government wants to avoid - (quotes)....fight together". I remember reading about this particular aspect.

Mr. Gay, you have said that as far as you are concerned, that comes from the Communist Party. I think that is what you said, was it?---Yes.

But is there anything in that pamphlet which is contrary to the policy of the High Command on which you served, or does it, in fact, set out the High Commands policy?---Let me say that the High Command was essentially in control of the para-military organisation. We were not concerned with broad aspects of politics. We were concerned with what might be called a limited technical job. There was of course, the Communist Party, like any other political party, concerned with far broadet political issues.

Yes, but I take it that the High Command had some political belief as well?---Oh indeed. I was a Communist, a member of the Communist Party, and I knew Mr. Kitson as a member of the Communist Party, because I used to present any party business which I wanted to raise, to him. For example, a gentleman which I have mentioned already, John Gizelle, he passed on to me a request that I in turn, passed on his application for membership of the Communist Party, and that application I passed on to Mr. Kitson.

Well Mr. Gay, let us get it this way - the High Command was, as it were, in charge of the M.K.?---Yes.

And I take it the M.K. had certain political beliefs, as well, which were represented in the High Command? Or not?---Well, I understood that the High Command

-263-     L.S. GAY

was simply an instrument of the Communist Party. Certainly at this stage when I was a member of the High Command.

So that being a Communist document, it did reflect the views of the High Command? The political views?--I would put it another way, and say that we, the High Command, I have mentioned why I consider Mr. Kitson to be a member of the Party. We were instruments of the Communist Party, and this being a Communist Party organ, we would invariably subscribe to it. We might have differences of opinion on some issues, but by and large, we would agree to what appears in the organ.

BY THE COURT TO MR. MASTERS: I think we have covered this already Mr. Masters, when the matter of eliminating informers were 'discussed?---Yes. (Mr. Masters explains).

EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS (CONTINUED):

Now, we get to some exhibits that were found in your garage - in your house. Will you just have a look at Exhibit 'X'?---This has nothing whatsoever to do with my work with Umkonto We Ziswe. It is a circuit diagram, which I intended to build for the purposes of supplying a unit which is called a crystal calibrator.

It has got nothing to do with this case?---No.

I am sorry. And just to identify Exhibit 'G' which I understand was used for the question of identifying typewriters - could you tell me in regard to Exhibit 'G' whether that was typed by you or not?---Yes indeed, this was typed by me on my typewriter.

And it is an application to a University for employment, is it?---Yes.

And you do not know where the police got it, but presumably that was from the University?---From the

-264-     L.S. GAY.

University, yes.

Was that typed on the same typewriter as you typed the other documents you referred to? Do you remember "Electricity Supply in South Africa."?---Yes, it is the same machine. It was a machine which I purchased in Durban.

That is Exhibits 33 and 59, my lord. Now, will you have a look at Exhibit 85 was that in your possession at the time of your detention?---Yes, this is a box which Mr. Kitson brought to me on Friday the 12th of June. At the previous meeting I had asked him to purchase it for me I suggested that he buy it from a firm in town called Hamrad's. He brought it to me on Friday the 12th of June, but I did not have cause to use it, because I made use of the unit which was used the previous year,

And Exhibit     ?---Again, this is not concerned with my work in connection with Umkonto We Ziswe.

We will not trouble you then Mr. Gay. Exhibit 87?----This is a tin containing calcium carbonate which I purchased with money obtained from Mr. Kitson. If and when I obtained nitric acid, I was going to produce cal-  cium nitrate, again on an experimental basis, for the purposes of producing ammonium nitrate.

Which would be...?---Which can be used together with some other substances as a high explosive.

Exhibit 88?---Yes, this is a power transformer which I purchased quite a long time ago, but in Johannesburg, and with the possibility of using it for the transmitter. I paid for it with money which was refunded to me either by Mr. Hodgson or Mr. Wolpe.

Exhibit_3?---It is just a unit which I built       up, usinb essentially my own private components, for the

-265-     L.S. GAY

purposes of adjusting the unit which the Court has already seen today, the unit with a small meter on it. I did use it for that purpose.

What was the Exhibit you referred to Mr. Gay?---On the bench further along with the meter - that.

Exhibit 3. Exhibit 90?---This dates back to 1957, but I did use it, for example, on the evening of the 27th of June, 1963, for the purposes of making some initial adjustment.

Exhibit 91?---High transformer not connected with Umkonto We Ziswe.

Exhibit 96?---Headphones - private property again, no connection.

Exhibit 97?---Again, private property. A component for a particular kind of F.M. detector, which I never built.

Exhibit 98?---Essentially a private collection of radio valves, with the exception of these two. This is a type of valve which is specified for the circuit which I recommended to Steve, and I purchased these  with money obtained from Mr. Kitson.

First of all 30 ?---When I unpacked the apparatus which was removed from storage on the 19th of June, I found one of these units, packed therein. I believe they were used at the broadcast on the 26th of June, 1963. For the purposes of keeping guard.

Can you tell us what they are first? I do not think the Court knows? Exhibit 30 is what Mr. Gay?---Exhibit 30, is called a transceiver.

What?---A transceiver used for point to point communication at short distance.

-266-     L.S. GAY.

Is it what they call a walkie-talkie?----A walkie-talkie.

And the other Exhibit?---This is another walkie-talkie.

Is the same as Exhibit 30? Exhibit 99---Exhibit 38? This I have never seen before.

No, I think it was found somewhere else. I wonder if you could just assist us and tell us what it is?---It is simply marked No. 1 Wireless sets No. 19, mark 2".

Do you know what it is, I thought you might be able to help us?---It is a power supply. From the inspection, I can only suggest that it is for use in connection with a portable transmitter or other radio apparatus.

Well, I understand there will be evidence it was with the second transmitter that you built? Does it have any use there?---It was with...?

With the second transmitter that you built - will it have any purpose then?---The second transmitter?

I am sorry, the first transmitter?---You say it was found with the first transmitter ?

Yes?---I certainly have not seen this before. It might have been obtained by other persons.

Could it have been used in connection with the transmitter? Do not worry?---No, I am sorry, now that I come to think of it, when I began work on this project, there was a war surplus transceiver, which I think was a No. 19 set, but I later discarded that unit.

Would that have been part of it?---This could be the part.     

Exhibit 38?---This is the oscillator section

-267-     L.S. GAY.

of the old transmitter. When I passed it on to Mr. Matthews on the 19th of June, I suggested to him that he dismantle the R.F. section.

Exhibit 70?---A coil which I made, and which I intended using in a unit...which I built, would have been housed on that box.

Exhibit 34?---A unit which was built for the fist transmitter, and it functions the same as that which we have already seen, the unit with the meter on.

Exhibit 45?--- A component which I bought with the M.K. funds. I think I bought it essentially as a spare item.

Exhibit 46?---Another item which I purchased with funds obtained from Mr. Kitson. Again, I think, as a spare item.

Exhibit_43?---Yes, I bought this with funds from the same source, but I do not know whether I had a specific use for it at the time.

Exhibit_44?---Yes, one of the same kind of components, also bought with funds from the same source.

Exhibit 47?---A switch which I bought when I was working under Mr. Hodgson's direction.

Exhibit 41?---Yes, a meter used for initial tests on the old transmitter.

Exhibit _48?--- (?) Which I might have used for the same purpose, and bought - I am not sure, either in Mr. Hodgson's time, or recently.

Exhibit_49??---Another switch bought in Mr. Hodgson's time.

Exhibit 42?---And yet another, some of these switches were probably used in....

-268-     L.S. GAY.

Have you got 42, can you tell us what that is?---This was one of the components which I salvaged from the old ex-army set.

AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS UNTIL

10 A.M. ON THE 24TH_NOVEMBER1964

-------------------------------------------

-269-     L.S. GAY.

ON RESUMING ON_THE_24TH NOVEMBER, 1964:

LION STANLEY GAY, still under oath

EXAMINATION BY M.R. MASTERS (CONTINUED)

That is Exhibit No. 155 - what is that Mr. Gay?---I have not seen these before. I can only express an opinion. I am not very well acquainted with transistorised sets, but by virtue of the presence of a small transformer in the transistor, I associate these devices with the suggestion I made to Mr. Slovo, to the effect that Steve build a number of code practice oscillators, but I am not sure that these are indeed those oscillators.

But you did discuss it with Steve too, did you not, the building of them?---No, when I saw Mrs. Slovo, of course Steve was not present on that occasion. I just saw Mrs. Slovo, I made this recommendation, and I also suggested to her that Steve make use of the circuit that appeared in a particular technical manual. I never saw the items which Steve made up, but he did make a report when I saw him in Doornfontein later.

What was his report then?---To the effect that  he had built a number of code practice oscillators, that he had not used the circuit that I had suggested, because of the difficulty in obtaining certain components.

Well, is that Exhibit then, a practice oscillator?---I cannot say for certain, no.

It just appears to you to be?---By virtue of the transformer, I think it is an audio circuit, and being an audio circuit, it could be a code practice oscillator.

Now, Exhibit 133 - will you just describe what those are first?---Aluminium tubes with four holes      drilled at the half-way mark. I associate these with a

-270-     L.S. GAY

suggestion which I passed on to Mr. Matthews. After I had built an electrical timing device, that suggestion was by Mr. Hodgson. When I built that timing device, I did not hand it over together with an ignition system.  It was later that I considered the design of such a system, and what I suggested was that we make use of a wooden block, the one end of which there was a combustible mixture, planted in a dell rod. The combustible mixture sur- rounding the fuse which will be connected to an electrical circuit, and the other end of the block which had a hole drilled in it, I suggested that one insert a length of fuse, which in turn, was associated with the detonator, and a dynamite charge. I passed on a sectional drawing of that suggestion to Mr. Matthews, and I think that these tubes would have been cut and drilled for that purpose, because after testing the transmitter in Cyrildene at Mr. Jones, home on one occasion, Mr. Matthews was taking me home, and we called in at his place, and in the garage, he tested a number of ignition systems which I thought were based on the principle which I had suggested in the sectional drawing. Mr. Matthews tested about four of these devices. As far as I remember, he used metallic tubes, and instead of wooden plugs which I had suggested in my model. I think he used corks. The one cork containing a combustible mixture, and the cork in the other end being for the purpose of holding the fuse. The holes for a special purpose, if these tubes were indeed cut for that purpose, and the suggestion was made that holes be made so that the gases resulting from the combustion, would escape without causing an explosion, because I thought that without the holes there would be an explosion,

-271-     L.S. GAY.

and the device would be shattered without igniting the fuse. As I say, Mr. Matthews tested in my presence, four or five of the igniting devices, and I think four or perhaps all five of them, functioned satisfactorily. One thing Mr. Matthews mentioned to me, was that he had used a 50/50 mixture of potassium chloride(?) and icing sugar, and he mentioned that he considered this more satisfactory than the mixture previously used, by virtue of the fact that it burnt for a considerable time.     

Will you have a look at Exhibit 131?--- ....

We have dealt with that. I think those are torch batteries, are they?---Yes, a number of torch batteries which have had wires soldered to the ends, that is about all I can say to it.

Yes, but if you were to make the time device which we discussed yesterday, Exhibit ...?---Yes, one would have..,as shown on this model, one would have to solder wires to the ends of the batteries.

As they are soldered on Exhibit 131?---Well, as they were soldered.     

Now, will you have a look at Exhibit_154. In regard to the erection of a transmitter at the Indian club, did you give any instructions?---Yes, I gave particular instructions about the aerial, and for the purposes of erecting the aerial, and tying the one end to part of the tennis court frame, I handed over to the Indian gentleman who came to my home, a length of gut. Gut which incidentally, had been used the previous year at Mr. Levitan's home for the same purpose.

So, the exhibit you now have, is a length of gut similar to that which you told to be used in the erection of the transmitter?----Yes.

-272-     L.S. GAY

Now Mr. Gay, on the 10th of September this year, did you point out the house in Doornfontein, which according to your evidence, you visited on two occasions, with No. 5 Accused?---Yes, I did so.

Now, do you remember in April of last year, No. 3 Accused was arrested?---Yes.

Do you remember as the result of that, whether any action was taken by No. 4, or any precautions?---That is Mr. Matthews. Yes, I have forgotten where I heard this, but I received this information - the information which came to my notice, was to the effect that Mr. Chiba had been arrested, and that he had a diary in which Mr. Matthews' name appeared, and as a result of that, Mr. Matthews, was to my knowledge, advised to clear his house of all incriminating items, and to be inactive until further notice.

Well, where would you have got this information from? What were your only sources?----In April of last year, that was the time at which the Technical Committee, to my knowledge, ceased to function. So I think I might have heard this information at a meeting of the Logistics Committee.

Well, it would have been either the Logistics or the Technical Committee meeting?---Yes, I do not remember Mr. Matthews being deliberately absent from late Technical Committee meetings which I attended.

No, but I just wanted your source of information - it must have been either told you at the Technical Committee or the Logistics Committee?---It might even have been mentioned again at a meeting of the High Command

-273-     L.S. GAY

this year, but I certainly had knowledge of that before the new High Command was set up,

Did you know why Mr. Matthews' name appeared in the diary of Mr. Chiba, No. 3?---Yes, I think Mr. Matthews himself told me that he had been on an aeroplane with Mr. Chiba.

An aeroplane to...?---Coming out to this country from London

.

And he travelled with No. 3 Accused?---Yes.

Now, just one last point, I think Mr. Gay - you have described what you called meetings on the road?---Yes.

And I think you told us that you would get into a car, or you would all be in a car, and that you would travel around and have your discussions in the car? Is that correct?---Yes.

Do you know whose car it was that was used? ---Invariably, Mr. Kitson used his own car. I can remember on exception, on which occasion his car was not available, and he told us that he borrowed a close neighbour's car.

Could you describe the car to us? Do you remember?---I do not remember what make it was. All I do remember is that it did not function very well. It was somewhat uncomfortable.

You do not remember the make or the colour?---No. Well, I was thinking of the car that you say Mr. Kitson used, that is the one?---The one he borrowed? No, not the one he borrowed, the one... his own car?---I am sorry, his own car is a D.K.W.

It was a D.K.W.?---Yes.

Can you remember the colour of his car?---I

-273-     L.S. GAY.

think it was a two-tone, I am not certain. I think grey and blue, but I am not certain of that.

MR. MASTERS: No further questions.

MR. BIZOS asks the Court to reserve cross-examination of this witness, and also informs the Court that Mr. Masters has no objection to this application. He mentions that they will in all probability put in a large number of documents by consent.

MR. HARE: Informs the Court that it is his attitude as well.

BY THE COURT: Well, this witness will stand down for cross-examination.

(WITNESS STANDS DOWN).

AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS UNTIL 2 P.M.

CONTINUED ON PAGE 275

ON RESUMING ON THE 27TH NOVEMBER,1964

COURT IS CLEARED.

MR. ZWARENSTEIN informs the Court that he is appearing on behalf of Accused No. 2 as from today.

LIONEL STANLEY GAY, still under oath (Recalled)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ZWARENSTEIN:

Mr. Gay, from the record of the evidence, which you have given to date, it would appear that you were quite active in various left movements - is that correct? -That is correct.

Now, what made you join these movements?---It was a desire to work for common good, by which I mean the good of the overwhelming majority of the population in the country.

Yes, and were all the accused, or are all the accused known to you?---They are indeed.

Well-known?---No, not well-known. All except Accused No. 5, whom I knew only as Mac, and whom I met on three occasions.

Well, they were reasonably well-known to you  in the movement, if I may use that phrase?---Yes.

And I take it that these people, these four accused whom you knew, were motivated in the same way as you were?---Yes.

There is no question about the honesty of their purpose?---I would say not.

Now, you gave certain evidence which appears at pages 260 and at the pages following of the record, in which you suggested, if I read your evidence, that the Spear of the Nation, that is the M.K., was part of the       Communist Party?---Under the control of the Communist Party.

-289-     L.S. GAY.

Pardon?---Under the control of it,

Now, I just want to read you the passage of your evidence at page 261 - your answer to certain questions, was as follows "Let me say that when I volunteered to join the organisation of Umkonto We Ziswe in Durban, I understood that it consisted of volunteers drawn from the Congress Alliance, and I presumed at that stage, that the leadership was also drawn from the Congress Alliance. Now, following the setting up of the Logistics Committee, I drew the conclusion that Communists were playing a rather big part in Umkonto We Ziswe, and again, following my knowledge of the political leadership at the time of the new High Command, the knowledge conveyed to me by Mr. Kitson about personnel, I come to the conclusion that Umkonto was directly under the control of the Communist Party".

Now, what I would like to point out to you is that in this passage of evidence, you base your view largely upon understanding, on presumption and upon conclusion - is that correct?---I would say partly. When Mr. Kitson told me that, he said to me with reference to the political leadership "You may as well know who they are", he mentioned the names Fischer, Hilda Bernstein and Ivan Chadbrooke(?).

Yes?---I understood, although he did not say so specifically, I understood, more than that, I understood that these persons were either part or whole of the Central Committee of the Communist Party.

Yes, now assuming all that to be correct, that they were members of the Communist Party, that they were members of the Central Committee of the Communist Party, that does not necessarily mean that the Communist       Party was in control - what it indicates is that Communists

-290-     L.S. GAY.

were in control. You see, you can have a situation can you not Mr. Gay, where persons can belong to two movements - they can belong to the Communist Party, and they can belong to the Umkonto movement?---Speaking of the Communists, the Communists' fundamental goal is to serve the Party.

Yes?---I do not think one could talk of freelance Communists, working in other organisations without instruction from the Party.

No, I am afraid you do not understand my question - you can have people who belong to the Communist Party, but are not members of the Spear of the Nation movement. You can have people who belong to the Spear of the National movement, and who are not members of the Communist Party?---Yes.

Do you agree with that?---Yes.

And what I am trying to put to you, is that your inference may not be well founded, that because you were told the three well-known Communists exercised control, that it follows that the Communist Party itself, was a controlling body?---Yes, from a logical point of view, perhaps I am incorrect, but....

I do not say you are incorrect, I am merely saying that your evidence is open to other inferences. It will be for his lordship to decide eventually whether your inference is correct or not. Now, you see, there was a witness called Beyleveld - do you know him and who he was?---I do not know the gentleman. All I know of him is that he is associated with the Congress of Democrats and that he was involved in the Court case involving the State President.     

Involving?---The dignity of the State President.

-291-     L.S. GAY.

Yes, and you may have noticed that he gave evidence in the case involving Advocate Fischer and others? ---I am aware of this now.

Now, his evidence, and he testified in this Court that he was a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party - is that the controlling committee of the Communist Party, the Central Committee?---Yes.

And I assume that, being on the Central Committee of the Communist Party, he would be aware of the relationship between the Party and the Spear of the Nation, if there was any relationship?---I would expect him to, yes.

Yes, and as I understand his evidence, it appears my lord, at page 285 and the pages following. You see, I just want to read you one or two excerpts from his evidence Mr. Gay, at page 285, he was being questioned by my learned friend who appears for the State - "Now, there is just one last question - you have heard of this Movement Umkonto We Ziswe....(quotes)....of both organisations". And I take it that is really as far as your evidence can go?---May I just draw the attention of the  Court to another matter.  After the successful broadcast in 1963, it was Arthur Goldreich who drew me aside, and when I went to attend a meeting of the Logistics Committee, and he conveyed to me the congratulations of the Central Committee.

Yes, but you could just as well have been congratulated by anybody else who shared your views?---And then again, when I joined the Communist Party....

No, just answer my question?---I am sorry, will you repeat it?     

I said anybody who shared your views, could have

-292-     L.S. GAY

congratulated you on your broadcast - anybody who was impressed by what was said over that broadcast, could have congratulated you?---Yes.

Yes?---When I joined the Communist Party in August of 1962, Umkon_to We Ziswe, had been functioning for some six months. Now, I was a member of a cell of five which used to meet at Rivonia, I got the impression from what was said, that this matter of taking part in sabotage as an organisation, had been considered and that it had been favourably received by the majority of members.  That is the impression I received from what was said at meetings of that cell. I wanted to raise a discussion on sabotage as a cell member, but it was never raised.

Yes, so all you have, is an impression?---Essentially an impression.

You know that sabotage was also carried on by other persons?---Yes, I am aware of that.

And merely because the principle of sabotage was approved of, does not mean that those who approve are necessarily members of the sabotage movement - for instance, take your own case - I assume that at one stage, you approved of sabotage?---Indeed, yes.

That did not necessarily make you a member of the Cape Movement led by Leftwich and others?---No.

It did not make you a member of the sabotage movement organised in Johannesburg by Dennis Higgs and Harris and others?---No.

Although you might have approved of what they were doing?---Not to the extent of terrorism.

I beg your pardon?---Not to the extent of terrorism.

-293-     L.S. GAY.

Now, I gather another aspect which influenced you to infer that the Communist Party controlled the Spear of the Nation, was a certain issue of a journal called the Freedom Fighter?---Before I was arrested, I saw No. 2

of the Freedom Fighter, and in the process of interrogation, I had occasion to see other numbers, and it came to my attention that Freedom Fighter looked favourably upon Umkonto We Ziswe, and it appeared to me that the organ took steps to publish, perhaps in somewhat disguised form, some of our decisions.     

Yes, but the mere fact that it approved, does not necessarily make it an official Communist organ?

BY THE_COURT: Well, is there such a thing as an official organ of a banned organisation?---I think without exception in Communist Parties, this is one of the functions - propaganda, and they take strong steps to publish their own journal, if there were no legal means of publishing a journal.

MR._ZWARENSTEIN explains to Court that when he uses the word official, he is using it in the subjective sense, that those who published it, they would regard it as the official organ of their banned organisation.

BY THE COURT TO MR. ZWARENSTEIN: You see, as long as it is clear to the witness, and it is clear to the record Mr. Zwarenstein.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ZWARENSTEIN (C0NTINUED)

Now, you see, what I want to put to you is that according to the evidence of Bernstein, this .... according to the evidence of Beyleveld, I am sorry, this paper, the Freedom Fighter, was published and conducted by Hilda Bernstein. The Communist Party assisted in its

-294-     L.S. GAY.

distribution, and are you able to controvert that in any way?---I can just say again that I understood Hilda Bernstein as one of the three political leaders of the M.K., to be a member of the Central Committee.

Yes, we will assume that she was. It is on record that she is a well-known Communist. The mere fact that she, I will call it, as a private enterprise, not in the political sense of the word, published this paper, or for motives of her own, does not make it an organ officially recognised by the banned Communist Party. In fact, Beyleveld's evidence was that it disapproved of this publication because of the manner in which it was written, and wanted to disassociate itself from it. Are you able to repudiate that evidence?---No. Allow me just again to draw the attention of the Court to the fact that the editor of that journal, had access to our decisions.

BY THE_COURT_TO-COUNSEL: Well, I did not got that impression from the evidence that I heard, Mr. Zwarenstein. I have gone through the evidence again, he did not say that he wanted to disassociate himself, he thought that it was  not good policy for the Communist Party to sponsor such a weak publication. (Mr. Zwarenstein reads from record, Line 20, page 282 - Well, let me put...(quotes)....and nothing further happened".) (Mr. Zwarenstein reads passage on page 281 starting at line 11 - Now I want to deal with this...(quotes)...to this matter".)

BY THE_COURT: Did they have any other publications, or were their publications done in this way?

WITNESS: My lord, there was and there still is, a journal called the "African Communist", distributed from London.     

No, but I am talking about the banned organisation in South Africa?---This is a journal published by the South African Communist Party in London.

-295-     L.S. GAY

And have they any publications in South Africa, done in this particular way?---Not to my knowledge.

CROSS-EXAMINATION_BY MR. ZWARENSTEIN (CONTINUED) :

Now, I also gathered from your own evidence Mr. Gay, that people could join the M.K. movement without having to satisfy the M.K. movement that they were Communists? They merely had to satisfy the movement of their being good security risks?---Yes, this is again an impression of mine, that the leadership would not admit other persons, except Communists.

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Mr. Gay, how does a banned organisation operate - do they operate by means of infiltration or do they take independent action?---Both.

Pardon?---Both.

Now, do you know whether it was policy to operate by way of infiltration?---I am not ware of this, As I understand the workings of the Communist Party, persons would be delegated to do different tasks. Mine was in particular, of a technical nature, Other persons would be given tasks of a more political nature.

Yes, but your tasks of a technical nature, were they for the benefit of the Communist Party, or were you expected to do it for the benefit of the A.N.C. or Umkonto?---I would say that basically, I was working for the Communist Party.

How was the Communist Party to use that information?---To use what?

Your technical knowledge?---In the services of this party, referred to as Umkonto We Ziswe, my lord,

-296-     L.S. GAY

it was about in April of 1963, that the cell to which I was a member, ceased to function as such. While I had been on the High Command, I had suggested to Mr. Kitson that surely we could become members of a cell, so that we could discuss basic Party policies, but this never took place, and in connection with that request, Mr. Kitson gave me to understand that members of the party who were working for Umkonto We Ziswe, were in a sense, neglected by the Party. I have forgotten his exact words, but perhaps for security reasons, we were not involved in other      motives.

Judging from exhibits that were handed in by agreement, it was policy of the Communist Party to ensure that their participation does not become apparent in the A.N.C.?---Yes, that is the impression I had, that this was intended to be very well guarded.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ZWARENSTEIN (CONTINUED):

Now, you gave certain evidence about what you described as the assassination of an Indian informer? ---Yes.

Do you remember that evidence?---Yes.

Was that evidence contained in your statement to the police?---Yes indeed.

And were the police not interested in the identity of this informer?---They asked me if I knew the identity of the gentleman, and I did not know his identity.

And have you ever heard what his name was, or who he was or circumstances under which he was assassinated? ---I can give you details of scenes following this supposed event.     

Certain?---I am going to refer to a meeting

-297-     L.S. GAY.

of the High Command.

Now, I know that you have given already, but are you able to tell us his name, of the informer?---That I cannot tell you.

BY THE COURT TO MR. ZWARENSTEIN: Has he given that information already?---No my lord, he has given evidence of this matter being discussed at meetings and so on. My lord, that appears on page 225. I do not want to go through the whole of his evidence in chief again, my lord.

Well, it may be relevant.

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: What is the position? What discussions took place?---After the decision, regarding the principle of assassination was taken, I think, the case of Bob Hepple was the first to be discussed, but I am not sure of this. At a later meeting, Mr. Chiba reported that he knew the whereabouts of an Indian informer, and he put it to the High Command what action should he take, and I was party to an agreement that he be assassinated.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ZWARENSTEIN (CONTINUED):

Could you just repeat that last sentence? I am sorry, I did not hear you?---The High Command took a decision to the effect that this man be assassinated.

Yes?---At a later meeting which was held at my home, Mr.

Chiba failed to arrive. He was known as George at the time, and when I asked Mr. Kitson where is George, he replied "Do you not know that an Indian has been murdered? He was found lying in the street". I was not aware of this, and Mr. Kitson and No. 1 Accused, looked visibly disturbed, and again it was an impression of mine that Mr. Chiba had been in contact with either of them, to say why he deemed it inadvisable to attend the meeting.

-298-     L.S. GAY.

WITNESS:     Now, at a later stage, I do not know whether the Court is interested, it was soon after this my lord, that I sought to leave the services of the High Command, but I did not succeed in doing so. After that initial report again, Mr. Chiba once said that this assassination was made to look like the result of gang warfare. I think it was he, who added that his wrists were cut or slashed.

Whose wrists?---The informer's.

Now, being on the National High Command, surely you would have been very interested in the identity of the informer?---While working for an underground organisation for the Communist Party and Umkonto We Ziswe, one becomes trained not to ask too many questions. I would not have raised this matter, I was not aware of the nature of the case. Mr. Chiba raised it, and No. 1 Accused, No. 2 Accused, expressed their favour. I did not speak in favour of it. I did not speak against it, I might have nodded my approval, but I was a party to it. It was in the nature of a decree, no questions asked, no process for establishing the guilt of the person.

Alright, now I ask you again - was it not of the utmost importance that the identity of an informer should be known to everybody?---Yes, from political considerations, I would say yes.

Never mind political - security:---The purpose of this was to discourage other persons from becoming....

I still want to know, is it not of importance that the identity of an informer should be known so that people would be on their guard against him? If people did not know who the informer was, they might still betray       secrets to him, surely?---Mr. Chiba was a member of the High

-299-     L.S. GAY.

Command, and we took his information on trust.

BY_THE_COURT_TO WTNESS: I do not think you follow the question - I think the perport of the question is whether you tried to investigate, who the informer was so as to be able to keep a look out for him?---No, no investigation at all, to my knowledge, but Mr. Chiba would have been aware of it, otherwise he would not have made the suggestion.

CROSS-EXAMINATION_ BY- MR. ZWARENSTEIN (CONTINUED)

You see, supposing that any effort to do away with the informer failed completely for two or three months, that informer would be at large, and would be a danger if his identity were not known - do you agree with me?---Yes.

And therefore, I suggest to you it was of extreme importance that the identity of the informer should be known, not to one person, but to all persons on the High Command, if not even others?----Not necessarily so. In the Umkonto We Ziswe, one generally worked with a small group. That informer would know of perhaps five persons, unless he was in a high organ of the movement. He would know perhaps four or five persons, perhaps ten, but no more. So for the organisation as a whole, he is no danger, because he does not know other persons. Shall I say not too many persons.

When you mentioned this to the police, was any indication given to you by them, who this informer was?---No indication at all from the time at which it was raised, I associated this informer with an attempt to sabotage a tool shed, at which a number of persons were arrested, the police having been advised before the act  took place.

-300-     L. S. GAY.

Well now, how did you learn the circumstances of the killing of this informer?.---Circumstances relating to cut wrists?

Yes, all these matters?---From members of the High Command.

And      ?---At meetings by the High Command.

And do you know by how many people he was attacked, and how he was killed and the date?---I have no... the date was prior to mid-April. I would put it at about January.

Yes?---I am not aware of the circumstances, other than the information brought to me by members of the High Command, and again, a matter of security, even at our local, it would be best not to say too much. One is given a task, you perform the task without giving the details.

But yet these people came to you and gave you the details of this alleged assassination? ---Yes, this is what was said to be by persons other than the members of the High Command, which if, these persons had been very  security conscious, would not have told me.

But that again, indicates the extreme importance of knowing who an informer is, surely?----,From... allow me just to express this point of view, that if this kind of assassination of informers is to have an effect, then I would consider it desirable that the population know about it, so that persons in the ranks will be subjected to what was designed a threat.

Allright. Now, will you explain this to me - I just do not follow this at all at the moment - here is a man who is killed, it is made to appear as if he were

-391-     L.S. GAY.

killed in gang warfare, correct?---I am not aware that he was killed. I have told the Court what was said to me by members of the High Command.

Yes, but you were told by members of the High Command that it was made to appear that he was killed in gang warfare?---Gang warfare, yes.

Now, how would that possibly serve as a warning to the rank and file (a) if they did not know who the informer was, and (b) if they were led to believe that the man died in gang warfare - how would that convey to the rank and file, that informers would be dealt with in this manner?---Subsequently to this event, looking back on it, I see this as an absurd situation, but if one refers to a certain copy of the Freedom Fighter, you will see the names of, I think, three informers, including Bob Hepple.

Yes, now Bob Hepple's case would have been quite a different method, because it was published, and then again, if one the same subject again at a later meeting of the High Command, No.1 Accused reported that he had two persons watching one of, I think, the State witnesses at the Rivonia case.  I think Mr. X or Mr. Y was mentioned. If the Court wishes me to do so, I can get more details on this question.

I am concerned with this particular piece of evidence at the moment, and as I sum up your evidence, it amounts to this - Chiba comes to the High Command, which I take it is an extremely important controlling body - correct?----Yes.

It is an important body?---Yes.

One of the most important bodies?---Yes.

-302-     L.S. GAY

With people of supposed responsibility on it? ---Yes.

I take it you were put on this body because of your experience, and because you were regarded as a man of responsibility?---Sir, this is one of the questions which I raised at a very early meeting of the High Command. I said to Mr. Kitson that if I had to serve on this body, surely it was an indication that things had reached a level at which we should take stock, Mr. Kitson's remark was "I am afraid we are scraping the bottom of the barrel". So, I can only speak for myself, but this case of extreme responsibility, is not necessarily so.

Were you put on this body, because you were regarded as a responsible person?---Partly, I would say, and partly because of my technical knowledge.

Now, as I said, summing up your evidence,

Chiba comes to this body, the High Command, and says "I know an informer, I am going to kill him", and that is where the matter ends?---He did not say "I am going to kill him".  He said…….

Alright, he is going to be killed?---He sought advice on this question, and a decision was taken.

No details were discussed?---Of his...?

Who this informer was, what he had done? How he was to be done away with, and so on?---I think the locality was mentioned where he was resident.     

Well, now what was the residence given?---I have forgotten which was mentioned, if at all it was mentioned.

You see, all our researches into this matter, have led to the killing of a police informer, not a political police informer, but a police informer in regard to

-303-     L.S. GAY.

matters of theft and receiving by name of Gulangangat(?), killed I think on the 12th of January of this year. That is the only link-up that we can find of an informer having been done away with, and we have the criminal record, we have the affidavits of the police, and beyond any doubt whatsoever, these make it clear that he was killed in gang warfare, and the persons who killed him were brought before the Court, and charged and convicted - does that link up with your facts?---I cannot add to what I have said already, that Mr. Chiba's initial report, and the subsequent reports. I am not aware of the supposed crime which this person has committed. I associated it with the tool shed blast, but I was not told by any other person that this was the case.

BY THE COURT TO_WITNESS: And what was the policy when it was explained to you that No. 1 Accused had two people watching two witnesses in the Rivonia trial case?---I beg your pardon my lord?

What was the policy of the National High Command when No. 1 Accused reported that he had two people watching two witnesses ... State witnesses of the trial?---It was looked upon favourably.

Yes, but was there any investigation or any enquiries about the identities?---Yes, No. 1 Accused mentioned Mr. X or Mr. Y I have forgotten which, but he went on to add…….     

By name or just by pseudonym?---By pseudonym. He went on to add that this gentleman would be followed as far as a railway halt, which I took to be in a township or somewhere near Johannesburg - he added further that this gentleman was no longer residing in the house which

-304-     L.S. GAY.

he used to occupy. It was subsequent to that, that we received a directive from the political leadership to the effect that no action should be taken lest the chances of the Rivonia accused should be prejudiced,

Now, when you talk about political leadership, what do you mean?---I refer to the persons whom Mr. Kitson mentioned probably at the first meeting.

Who were they?---Mr. Fischer, Hilda Bernstein, Ivan Chadbrooke, and from what Mrs. Slovo said to me, I presumed that she had become the fourth member.

AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR TEA.

ON RESUMING:

LIONEL STANLEY GAY, still under oath

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. _ZWARENSTEIN_ (CONTINUED) :

I have perused the record during the interval, and I find no mention by you in your evidence in chief, that Chiba reported back that the informer had been eliminated?---That is correct.

Why did you not give that evidence in chief?

You had lots of opportunities, according to the record?---  He....

COURT informs Mr. Zwarenstein that witness said that the three attended all the National High Command meetings, except when the question of the elimination of the informer arose, (Mr. Zwarenstein reads from page 225 of record). (Further discussion ensues between Court and Mr. Zwarenstein. Court informs Mr. Zwarenstein that witness was not asked to elaborate on that, and Mr. Zwarenstein can argue on that. Mr. Zwarenstein reads page 229 to Court, to prove that witness had ample opportunity to elaborate).     

(Further discussion ensues between Court and Mr. Zwarenstein.)

-305-     L.S. GAY.

WITNESS: My lord, may I say something? I elaborated on this question, because it appeared to me that the crucial question was whether or not the identity of this man should have been known. That is why I raised the question of Mr. Y or Mr. X - I do not remember which, and the case of Bob Hepple, if that was not being discussed, to give an example of cases where, if that person had been assassinated - for example Mr. Y, it would have been well-known to the whole population, why he

BY THE_ COURT: Anyway, we can play it back, My recollection is that you were about to mention it, then Mr. Zwarenstein said that you have already told us about that.

BY THE COURT_TO MR._ZWARENSTEIN :  Well, we can play it back Mr. Zwarenstein, it is being typed at the moment, so it is not available.---Well, my lord, it is really a matter for argument at the end, and I am going to make an additional submission, when it has to be argued that throughout my cross-examination, this witness has proceeded to volunteer information without being questioned on the matters. I cannot speak about this matter, my recollection is also not good,  but that is, as I say my lord, a matter to be argued.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ZWARENSTEIN (CONTINUED):

Now, you mentioned the name of Hepple - what was the discussion relating to Hepple?---I do not recall whether we did indeed, take a decision to this effect, but I think the matter was discussed.

But what would have been....?---It is a long time ago, perhaps in December of 1963.

What was the suggestion?---I do not remember whether it was specifically discussed that he be assassinated.  I told the Court that I think the case of Hepple was

-306-     L.S. GAY

considered     I am not sure.

When was the meeting at which this issue of elimination of informers was to be discussed?---As a principle?

Yes?---The first meeting.

And when was that?---Just before the Rivonia trial.

Give me the month?---November or perhaps December -- when I am aware that the original indictment was quashed. The discussion or principle, I think, took place before commencement of the original proceedings.

And Hepple's name cropped up as a possible person to be eliminated?---I think it did, I am not sure, but his name appears in Freedom Fighter.

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Of what significance is that? The fact that his name appeared in Freedom Fighter?---It was coupled together with two others, my lord. Two other traitors. I do not know, I think they were called traitors.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ZWARENSTEIN (CONTINUED) :

Now, I gather this meeting at which this matter was discussed, was in December, 1963?---Or a little earlier.

I beg your pardon?---Or a little earlier. It could have been November.

I am just going to put it to you shortly by the way, that Accused No. 2 will deny that he suggested or that he was in favour of the elimination of informers?---(No reply).

What is your reply?---I am sorry sir?

I say I am just putting it to you formally, that Accused No. 2 denies that he at any time approved of

-307-     L.S. GAY.

the elimination of informers, either as you have alleged, or at all - do you adhere to your evidence?---I do.

Now, I just want to read you a passage of your evidence at page 227 of the record. You are her discussing the question of informers, and this is what your evidence...how your evidence reads "I agreed with this .... (quotes) ....in favour of a policy" - do you remember that evidence?---Yes.

What I would like to ask you is this – was the effect of this decision that nothing should be done until a directive had been obtained from the political leadership?---I made a strong recommendation that it be referred to the political leadership, but from Mr. Kitson's previous statement at the first meeting at which this principle was discussed, that we constitute an autonomous body, it was not a necessity, I did not consider it a necessity that they approve, but by virtue of the serious nature of that matter, I made that recommendation.

Well, you actually say "I think this decision was referred to the political leadership for their consideration", and I take it that you based that evidence on some information in your possession?---Yes, I added in my evidence that when the later directive was brought to the High Command by Mr. Kitson, it was I think, accompanied by a critical comment reflecting the change in the attitude of the political leadership in this matter.

Well now, that is what I want to ask you - was the effect of the decision that it is to refer the matter to the political committee, that nothing should be done until the directive had been obtained?---In any event,   meeting weekly at that stage, I think we met weekly initially,

-308–     L.S. GAY.

it would have been a matter of seven days before that matter had been raised, and a directive brought, to the High Command.

Yes. Now, at page 225 of the record, you said this – "The first meeting Mr. Kitson said that we comprised the new National High Command .... (quotes)...political leadership". Now, when was it later that you learnt about the political leadership?----Either at the first meeting when reference was made to political leadership, or at a later stage, I was given the names, but at that meeting reference was made to political leadership.

The first meeting?---Yes. I think I added previously that we were told to...Mr. Kitson said we must get on with the job as best we could.

MR. ZWARENSTEIN: No further questions.

CROSS–EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS:

Mr. Gay, you told us that the first meeting of the new High Command was towards the end of 1963?---Yes.

Can you remember the month in which this first meeting took place?---Late November or early December.20

I want to come back to one matter, and that is regarding the discussion that traitors or informers should be eliminated. You said in your cross–examination this morning that Bob Hepple, Mr. X and Mr. Y were dis- cussed together, as to whether or not they should be eliminated?---No, I did not say that.

What did you say?---I said that Heppel's name was covered with two others in the Freedom Charter.... sorry, in the publication known as Freedom Fighter.

Yes, your memory is now serving you correctly Mr. Gay?     Yes, carry on please?---I went on to say that I

-309-     L.S. GAY.

think the case of Bob Hepple was considered. I am not certain of that.

Yes?---And I mentioned two other cases. The case of an Indian informer, and later the case of an African whom I think was Mr. Y. I am not certain.

If I understood you this morning to have said that there was consideration as to whether Bob Hepple should be eliminated or not, did I misunderstand you Mr. Gay?---You did. I said I think the case of Hepple was considered. I am not sure.

For what purpose?---For the purpose of assassination.

Yes, and that was considered at the same time as Messrs. X and Y?---No. They were discussed - if the case of Hepple was discussed at all, it would have been discussed early.

Has it just occurred to you Mr. Gay, that Bob Hepple left the country before the Rivonia case started?---Before it started proper, yes.

And has it just occurred to you that Mr. Hepple's name would not have been coupled with that of X and y?---When, may I ask was…….      

BY THE COURT: You say the way you understood his evidence, he explains it - he said the name was coupled with the two others in the Freedom Fighter, and he has no clear recollection that his name was specifically mentioned at any of the meetings. It is only because the name was coupled that he is under the impression that he could also have been discussed.---I am leading onto something my lord. (Further discussion ensues between Court and Mr. Bizos.      Court points out that Mr. Bizos is suggesting that the witness

-310-     L.S. GAY.

is changing his evidence.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED)

Now, are you also aware now that Mr. Y did not give evidence until towards the end of January, 1964? ---This question as it appears in Freedom Fighter, was a discussion in general of informers. If you read the passage to the effect that we must, in the term, clean our ranks of informers, and there is no reason why that was not written after our decisions.

Now, you say that that discussion in regard to these three, took place after the decision of what you called, the political authority?---The case of the Indian which I remember clearly - I just want to point out to the Court that all these three persons, if indeed, Hepple was discussed, were not discussed at one meeting.

Were Hepple, X and Y, discussed before or after a decision of what you called the political authority, was communicated to you?---Let me repeat, that at the first meeting the principle was discussed, later the case of an Indian, and later still the case of one African, Mr. X or Mr. Y.

Was there discussion about Hepple, X and Y after the decision of the so-called political authority, was communicated to you?---If Hepple was discussed, and if the political leadership felt so strongly about this, and if indeed, our chairman Mr. Kitson, felt so strongly about it, we were to avoid action until it was approved, but from what I recall of discussions at High Command level, we did not necessarily have to appeal to political leadership, that was a recommendation on my part.     

Have you understood my question Mr. Gay? Was

-311-     L.S. GAY.

there a discussion about Mr. Hepple, X and Y, before or after the decision of the so called political authority? ---Are you referring to the decision to the effect that no action be taken?

Yes?--- No, that came after the case of the Indian, and during the case of the African informer.

BY THE COURT_TO_WITNESS: Yes, but now in relation to the reply that you got from the political leadership, was it before or after?---Which reply?

Well, the reply that you got from the political leadership, that you should not prejudice the Rivonia trial?---No, that came after the case of the Indian, and while the case of the African was under consideration, and No. 1 Accused reported that he was being watched. Before any action could be taken against him, we received this directive.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED):

Now was Hepple discussed at all after the decision of the political authority was communicated to you?---Which decision are you referring?     

That no action should be taken?---No, that was a late decision, somewhat later.

Would you like to place a month on it?---That no action be taken?

Yes?---This would have been brought to us, I would say, in about February.

In about February?---That no action be taken.

Now, try and remember now - you have told us in your evidence in chief, that the only Freedom Fighter that you saw, was No. 2? Was that evidence correct?---Indeed, that is what I said. I did not intend to mislead

-312-     L.S. GAY

the Court on this point.  No. 2 was the only one which I saw prior to my arrest. While under interrogation, I had cause to see two others.  I was asked certain questions relating to Freedom Fighter.

Do you remember that there is no reference to traitors or informers in No. 2?---That I do remember.

Now, do you remember any discussion whatsoever on this committee, as to whether it was correct or incorrect that Hepple should have been branded a traitor or informer?----No, if the matter was raised at all, it would not have been discussed, I do not think, whether he was a traitor specifically, it would have been assumed, as in the case of the Indian gentleman.

Try and remember Mr. Gay, whether or not the fact that Freedom Fighter had called Hepple a traitor, was discussed or not?---By us?

By you?---No.

Do you remember     Accused No. 1 doubting whether or not Hepple had been a traitor or an informer?---Accused No. 1 doubting?     

Yes? Try and remember that?---No, I do not remember that.

Is it possible that it happened without you remembering it?---It is possible.

Because Accused No. 1 will tell his lordship, you can try and search your memory whether this is correct or not, that there was a discussion about Hepple, on this committee - the only discussion was that some said that he had been a traitor, others said no, he was not a traitor, he managed to get out and good luck to him? Try and remember that?---Others of us?

-313-     L.S. GAY.

Yes?---No, I do not remember.

Is it possible that it happened with you having forgotten about it?---It is possible.

You see Mr. Gay, you had shown in some things a remarkable memory. I am not offering it as a criticism to you at this stage, more especially in the technical matters, but in other matters you have shown that you are not absolutely certain of things, by pre-fixing statements and evidence if I recall, if I remember correctly, if I am not mistaken - that is how you gave your evidence on non- technical matters?---Well, allow me just to say that in technical matters, I was perhaps the ... one of the more important links, and I personally was actively involved in building and erecting, whereas in the case of assassinations, I did not raise any of those questions.

Yes, Mr. Gay, I wonder, I find it a bit difficult to hear you, if you would be good enough to just drop slightly that, so that I can see?, (Witness complies). Because you see, my instructions from Accused No. 1 is that there was indeed discussion about traitors or informers, and No. 1 said what are these people that are the publishers of the Freedom Fighter, calling people traitors for, and gave Hepple as an example - can you deny that?---I am not quite clear?

Can you deny that Accused No. 1 said about Hepple, why did they brand him as a traitor or informer?---I certainly do not remember that statement having been made by Accused No. 1.

Now, are you certain that it was not said, in view of your tendency to say if I remember correctly, if I am not mistaken?---I do not think it was said.

-314-     L.S. GAY.

You do not think that it was said - very well?---But it is possible that it was. In fact, I do not recall any discussion of the High Command at which Freedom Fighter as such was mentioned.

Yes, but there might have been gossip about its contents, or not gossip, casual discussion?--No, no.

So that we have this from you then, that Freedom Fighter was not an organ of M.K.?---Of M.K.?

Yes?---Not in the sense that High Command had, as a body, discussed its contents and circulation, but if, as I have strong reason to suspect, M.K. served the Communist Party, then by virtue of our serving the Communist Party.

I am going to that Mr. Gay     

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Will you just complete the sentence? I missed that last bit?---By virtue of M.K. serving the Communist Party.

Yes?---The Freedom Fighter, in a sense, is associated with us.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED):

Just before I go any further, perhaps if we may just define certain terms - the expression National Liberation Movement, well-known to you?---No.

Well, was it used by you?---No.

Never?---On the High Command?

No, no, this is definition of terms?---No. I am not suggesting that this was discussed on the committee Mr. Gay?---Sorry.

Are we together now?---Yes.

This expression National Liberation Movement?---Yes.

-315-     L.S. GAY.

Is it correct that if there is no body, no organic body known as the National Liberation Movement?-I would say not, but...in the context of the broadcast, I take it as the body fighting for liberation as a whole connected or not.

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: What do you mean by that?---In the broadcast my lord, one of the early statements was that this was the head of the A.N.C. calling on behalf of the Liberation Movement. I think it is well-known now, that there were other bodies undertaking sabotage as well, and as I understood this broadcast....that statement of the broadcast, it was being made on behalf of all fighting for liberation.

CROSS-EXAMINATION _BY MR._BIZOS_CONTINUED):

Now, I just want to get clarity about this - I am off the subject now, of what was discussed on the National High Command?---Yes.

The National Liberation Movement is a loose phrase, is it not?---I would say, yes.

Did you consider yourself as a member of the National Liberation Movement?---By virtue of serving M.K., yes.

And the organisation, as the result of other trials, are well-known African National Congress, the Communist Party and Indian Congress, the Coloured People's Congress, S.A.C.T.U. - now this radio broadcast, that was on behalf of the National Liberation Movement?---No, I would say not.

Who was it on behalf of?---In particular, it was on behalf of M.K., A.N.C. and I would say the Communist   Party, although …………..

-316-     L.S. GAY.

Yes, the others are lawful organisations?----I beg your pardon?

The others were lawful organisations? Or are lawful organisation - I do not want to enter into that dispute, but when it used the expression National Liberation Movement, it meant those persons who subscribed to a certain philosophy of life?---No, not necessarily so.

What do you mean?---For example, M.K. -- we were not the only body responsible for acts of sabotage, and on basic political questions, we probably have violent disagreements with other persons responsible for sabotage.

No, I am not suggesting that everyone who is opposed to the Government, is a member of the National Liberation Movement?---No, but all I am drawing your attention to, is the fact that amongst this loose body, termed the National Liberation Movement, one would find Communists.

Yes?---One would find, perhaps, Liberals, and you cannot...

African Nationalists?---Yes, and one cannot      talk of a common philosophy.

Well, they have a common objective?---A common immediate objective, not a common primer objective.

Now, the point that I want to make with you Mr. Gay, and try and think carefully and give us an answer - that your work on the radios was on behalf of the National Liberation Movement, without it being a body. It had nothing to do with your membership of M.K.?---I would say the work on the radio was essentially concerned with the A.N.C. and objects of the A.N.C. and M.K. and...perhaps I cannot convince his lordship, the Communist Party, if

-317-     L.S. GAY.

indeed M.K. and the A.N.C. were controlled by the Communist Party.

Well, we will come to that controversy, but let us just deal with this - that you would have had for instance, no hesitation in calling upon non-M.K. members for assistance in regard to the radio?---Non-M.K. members?

Yes?---Yes indeed, I did not consider Mr. Jones for example, as a member of M.K.

Yes?---But if I may think of the persons who assisted me with the construction and testing - Mr. Matthews was a member of the Technical Committee.      

Yes, I am not dealing with specific individuals, but generally the mere fact that you were in charge of the radio, you did not consider that as part, or exclusive to M.K. - it was on behalf of the National Liberation Movement, a number of organisations working to a common end?---A limited number of those organisations.

Yes?---In particular those connected with. the A.N.C. and the M.K.

Now, and is it quite clear from what you remember of the 1963 broadcast, that it was a political broadcast by Sisulu?---I do not remember much of that broadcast, but a statement in that broadcast to the effect that since the State is mobilising, we too must mobilise.

Yes?---I coupled with the work of the M.K. and also my work with the Logistics Committee.

Well, that is what mobilisation meant to you? ---Yes, indeed.

BY THE COURT: The point that you are trying to make Mr, Bizos, may be the following -     

BY THE COURT TO_WITNESS: I think counsel is trying to put to

-318-     L.S. GAY.

you that this broadcast was to serve the immediate objects of the Liberation Movement. That the broadcast was not authorised by the constituent bodies of the Liberation Movement?---There is no doubt in my mind that there was no authorisation whatsoever, that this statement was - perhaps it was a statement to encourage unity amongst the liberating movement.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED):

Yes, it really is an extension of what you have already told me Mr. Gay, that although you were a member of M.K., as far as the radio is concerned, you would have called for assistance upon any person that was a member of the National Liberation Movement, who was prepared to take the risks of doing unlawful work, let us put it that way?---Not I personally, I would not call on the assistance of arbitrary persons, except in the case of purchasing odd little items, but if in the course of undertaking a particular project, for example, the second broadcast, if non-Communists, perhaps members of the Indian Youth Congress, were brought to me, I would accept them.

You would have accepted assistance from them? ---Indeed, yes, officially.

I beg your pardon?---Officially as it were, through the High Command.

Yes, as long as someone had satisfied himself that they were not people who were likely to run to the Security Police?---Yes.

That would have been your only concern?---Oh yes.

Now, you say that a script was brought to No. 1 Accused, and it was said you can take out anything you

-319-     L.S. GAY.

like, but do not add anything - remember that?---Yes, allow me just to say that in saying you, that was incorrect. No. 2 said consider this - I think the word them was mentioned "Take this to them to be considered".

Yes?---Delete what you do not want, but on no account add to this.

By them, did you consider the A.N.C.?---This is what I understood - I understood that No. 1 Accused was taking this to the Regional Executive of the A.N.C.

Now, the reference to that they must not add, was that because it was to be a limited broadcast on duration of time, limited by the playing time of the tape recorder?---This ... the problem of duration was an essential consideration.

Yes?---That we considered 15 minutes a safe upper limit.

Yes, and also I would like to add for an additional reason, that the electronics experts of the S.A.B.C. might come to the spot where the broadcast was taking place?---Yes, that is what I meant.

Now, I want you to please try now, to the best of your ability, to repeat, what the content of this proposed broadcast was?---Yes, we have just discussed the introduction to the effect that the speaker said that this is the A.N.C. calling on behalf of the whole of the Liberation Movement. He added that ... he identified the broadcast with Freedom Radio, and added that we have not spoken to you for a year, and part of the broadcast was concerned with a summary of events which took place during the past year, a reference was made, for example,

-320-     L.S. GAY

to the Rivonia trial, to the effect that no tears should be said. Furthermore that new leaders had come to the fore, persons who were unknown to the masses. I think also a reference was made to torture, a reference was certainly made to the arrest of women and children.

Yes?---Later in the broadcast, reference was made to the struggle of the Algerian people.

Yes?---Then a call was directed that the members shall organise themselves into small groups, and be prepared for whatever call may be issued, and then later, towards the end of the broadcast, there was a statement to the effect that sabotage must continue, and although life will be respected, steps will be taken to protect our own people. I think that covers the main items.

I am going to put it to you Mr. Gay, that either consciously, or unconsciously, you have made one important addition to that - and that is that sabotage must continue.

BY_ THE_ COURT: Make yourself clear Mr. Bizos, if it is not what you are saying.---I will explain it to the witness.     

CROSS-EXAMIINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED):

I am not suggesting that there are material differences between what you said now and the previous occasion Mr. Gay, what I am suggesting to you is that you have either consciously or unconsciously added, both in your evidence in chief and now, that there was a reference to sabotage continuing? ---There certainly was.

Now, I want to put certain facts to you which will make it quite clear that that could not have been so.

If it was a broadcast on behalf of the National Liberation Movement...?---I denied that, on behalf of the National

-321-     L.S. GAY

Liberation Movement. It is just a term that was used, without any consultation with other bodies. In fact, the P.A.C. still exists, we M.K. are very antagonistic towards the P.A.C.

No, I do not want to enter into a controversy whether the P.A.C. is part of the National Liberation Movement or not, I just want to emphasise that it ...?---I just want to emphasise that it was not made on behalf of all these bodies.

Now, the A.N.C. as you have already told us, had been consulted about the context?---That is what I understood, when a term region was mentioned by No. 1 Accused at a meeting of the High Command.

Were you aware of the contents of the manifesto of Umkonto We Ziswe?---No.

Did you know that the manifesto was pasted on various walls on the 16th of December, 1961?---That I am aware of. It was announced in New Age.

Yes, it was re-printed in New Age, and a statement was made there that  his was an organisation which had placed itself under the general policy of the National Liberation Movement?----I am not aware of that statement.

Well, it is an exhibit before Court, I can assure you that that was so. Now, is it likely do you think, that the steps that the A.N.C. had taken to dis- associate itself from committing acts of violence, that in a broadcast, on behalf of the National Liberation Movement, sabotage would have been encouraged?---Will you please repeat that?

Do you think it likely that the A.N.C. would, in a broadcast, have allowed encouragement of sabotage?---

-322-     L.S. GAY.

Well, in the first place, I do not consider that this document was A.N.C. inspired. It was drawn up by a person, passed through the High Command, No. 1 Accused, to be taken to some other body for reference.

Which you thought to be the A.N.C.?---I thought that …………      

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Just repeat your evidence ----Allow me just to say that although the term region was spoken....referred to by No. 1 Accused at meetings of the High Command, I am only assuming that that referred to the Regional Executive of the A.N.C. I am not certain of that point. I do not know whether such a body still exists.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED):

Now, how many times did you hear or see this script?---I saw the script  as it was passed on from No. 2 Accused to No. 1 Accused. And later on the Monday preceding the first...the Thursday evening on which the broadcast was due to have taken place, I monitored that tape recording.

And you say that you are absolutely certain that sabotage was mentioned on that?---I am certain, and when I saw the two young Indian gentlemen on the Tuesday, I warned them about this broadcast. I said it contains incriminating material, be careful, and I said that with particular reference in my mind, to the statement that sabotage must continue.

To which Indian gentlemen are you referring? ---The young Indian gentlemen whom I saw at my home after we had come back from the site at which the broadcast ……...

I see, yes. Now, in ... do you mind just

-323-     L.S. GAY.

giving us a few of the details of how it came about that you got Mr. Gizelle's gun?---Yes, either privately or at a meeting of the High Command, Mr. Kitson said to me John Gizelle had a gun, would I get it from him, and the next time I saw John Gizelle, I conveyed this request or perhaps an order, to him and he gave me the weapon, and at a subsequent meeting, I passed it on.

And you do not know what happened to it after that?---At the meeting it was passed on to No. 1 Accused, and I do not know what happened to it.     

Now, before going into another topic, I just want to deal with one in particular - when you were doing work at Rivonia, in your group or cell, on behalf of the Communist Party?---Yes.

Was there work done at Rivonia which had nothing to do with M.K.?---In my context as member of a cell of five?

Yes?---Yes, for example, we would have political discussions, and as a member of the Communist Party, these would be political discussions, bearing on Communism  either nationally or internationally.

Yes, and also you would arrange to do work which was to further the objects of the Communist Party?---Yes.

Such as sending out theoretical literature, you told us?---Printing literature, in particular, our vast task was the printing in the main house, of a document on the China/Soviet dispute.

Yes, what is quite clear to you that there may have been members of your cell concerned with work of the Communist Party only, and not with work of M.K.?--Yes,

-324-     L.S. GAY.

I think Mr. Ezra, was such an example.

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: In what way?---I understood that his most important task, he might have had other tasks not to my knowledge, was to establish a contact with so-called (?), known as...referred to in the Communist Party as members of the Party, unknown to the authorities, and I understood that Mr. Ezra was in contact with many (?) in other centres of the Republic. He travelled widely.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED):

And in his capacity as a member of the Communist Party, he no doubt used the duplicators and other equipment that was installed at Rivonia?---We had cause to use only one machine which was a large electrically operated machine.

Well, just to round off this point Mr. Gay, it was quite clear to you that work relating to the Communist Party only, was also done at Rivonia?---No - sorry, are we still speaking in the context of my membership as a group of five?

Yes, yes?---Because I just want to emphasise that meetings of that body ceased to take place in April after which I tested the radio and worked as a member of the Logstics Committee.

Yes, I am only dealing with the period that you used to go to Rivonia in connection with Communist Party work?---Yes, while I went there as a member of the cell of five, I personally understood that that was the only work that went on. I was not aware of any other work.

Now, the exhibit before the Court 84, these aluminium tubes, exhibit_ 133 - Now, 133 that you told us relates to explosives. Can you tell us more or less when

-325-     L.S. GAY

that was done? By Accused No. 4?---I do not know whether these were indeed, done by which I take it you mean made?

Made?---Cut and drilled by Accused No. 4.

Well, the discussion that you had with Accused No. 4, was that whilst he was a member of the Technical Committee that used to have its meetings in Levitan's house in Empire road?---Please repeat that question?

Were those discussed?---These tubes?

Yes?---Not these tubes in particular, no.

Well, do you remember that you tied up this exhibit with a discussion that you had with Accused No. 4? ---I associated this set of tubes with a proposal which I had made concerning the problem of an ignition system, as I term it, and furthermore I associate these tubes, the principle of these tubes - let me put it that my, with the testing of igniting devices in the garage of Accused No. 4 on an evening after testing of the transmitter.

I am only interested in the date - was that before April, 1963?---It was while testing the first transmitter at Mr. Jones' home, and I think that operation ceased  in about April. This would have been April or prior, 1963?---1963 - April 1963 or earlier.

Now, after Rivonia, that is after the 11th of July, 1963, were all your dealings with Accused No. 4 in connection with the radio?----All my dealings?

Yes?---No, not all my dealings.

What other dealings were there?---At a meeting of the High Command, I suggested or it was suggested to me that I consider again this problem of electrical timing devices. For this purpose Accused No. 2 told me       that parking parts were in the possession of Mr. Matthews.

-326-     L.S. GAY.

Now, I had lunch with Mr. Matthews on a particular occasion, after the Rivonia raid, that is early this year, and at that occasion it might have been specifically for the collection of a parking watch for the purposes of constructing an electrical timing device.

You do not remember precisely when that was? --No, I do not remember. Let me just say that my work on this problem of times this year, was completed I think, before we stopped meeting at my home. That would be prior to April, 1964.

Now, in regard to this discussion that you had with Accused No. 4?---Which discussion is this?

In regard to Freedom Fighter?---I would not call it a discussion.

Well, he told you that he was putting your name on the list and you said no, please do not?---He asked me if I wanted my name to appear amongst the names of the persons to whom this was posted so that I will receive it through the post.

Yes?---And I declined. I suggested on no account.

Now, the National Liberation Movement's policies were supported by a newspaper which you said you went to get every week in Durban

- do you remember that? ---I used to purchase New Age.

Would you say that that was a newspaper which supported the policies of the National Liberation Movement? ---As a principle, yes. As a nebulous body, I cannot agree.

Yes, well, try to define in particular?--- It was mainly concerned with...for example, it used to ...   New Age used to advertise successful sabotage attempts.

-327-     L.S. GAY.

Now, I am going to put to you that the Freedom Fighter, in all probability, was designed to take over the functions of a newspaper supporting the policies of the National Liberation Movement?---I do indeed suspect that Freedom Fighter replaced banned legal publications.

Now, I want to deal with this question that you have been particularly anxious to emphasise Mr. Gay, that is the role of the Communist Party in this. Now, you were a member of the Communist Party?---I was, indeed.

Supporting its policies?---Not all of them.

Yes, but sufficient of them to have remained a member?---Yes.

And were you aware of its, what I think are called, its short term objects?---Yes, I had cause as a member of a cell of five, to discuss certain aspects of the programme of the Party, and later when Mrs. Slovo called on me, I asked her for a copy - I am sorry, do not misunderstand me, this is not the time when Mrs. Slovo called on me just prior to her leaving the country, but earlier, I had cause to see her, and I asked her for a copy of something to read and again she gave me a copy of the programme of the Party.

Yes?---And the short term policy, as I understood it of the Party, was to bring about an extension of (?) democracy, that would be the short term project, and the long term....

May I just interrupt you there for a moment, as far as the short term - we will come to the long term a little later. The short term objects of the Communist Party and the long term objects of the A.N.C. did those       correspond?---I would say yes.

-328-     L.S. GAY.

And this expression that you use (?) democracy, did that mean the extension of the franchise to ...?---The extension of democratic rights as we know them, under a capitalist system.

So that as far as the short term objects of the Communist Party and the A.N.C. were concerned, they were ad idem and there was, or you were aware a partnership, if I may use the expression, between the A.N.C. and the Communist Party?---Yes.

Were you aware of the statements of various      leaders of the A.N.C. to the effect that they did not mind co-operating with anybody provided they were prepared to assist them to attain their objectives?---The statement at the trial, yes.

No, I am not talking about the trial only, but before that?---No, I am not aware of the statements before, but I am aware of the statement at the trial.

Well, but you were a person of keen political awareness Mr. Gay, if you went as far as you did - did you know that the A.N.C., in fact, solicited and accepted support from anyone, provided they were prepared to support its programme who are prepared to support it in the achievement of its aims and objects?---Yes.

Now, were you aware that whilst the A.N.C. was a lawful organisation, it made no bones about the fact that it was prepared to associate with known Communists? ---I am not aware of that.

Now, you as a member of the Communist Party Mr. Gay, did you feel that you were furthering the objects of the A.N.C., short term objects?---Yes, but I was in disagreement about the final goal.

-329-     L.S. GAY.

You would have disagreed with them about the final goal. You wanted, what I understand to be, Socialism and not (?) Democracy - is that right?---Yes, I was in favour of the introduction of Socialism.

Now, were you sincere or insincere in this support that you offered Mr. Gay?---I was sincere.

You were doing something at great danger to yourself, were you not? In regard to your person liberty? ---Indeed, yes.

And Accused No. 1 was doing exactly the same thing?---Yes.

Was there a bond between the two of you?---There was a bond.

That came about as the result of the common danger that you were in?---Not a common danger, I would place more emphasis on the fact that we were working together.

I beg your pardon?---I would place more emphasis on the fact that we were working together to achieve  something.

You would not like to say that you were using Accused No. 1 would you Mr. Gay?---Uhm     

Because you would not be sincere if you said that?---Using him in the sense?

In the sense that you have hitherto suggested, indirectly perhaps, without realising it Mr. Gay?---That the Communist Party was controlling?

Yes, were you controlling Accused No. 1?---No, but as far as I was concerned Accused No. 1 was also a member of the Communist Party.

-330-     L.S. GAY

How were you aware of that?---For example, at Rivonia, I often sought a discussion on this question of the China/Soviet dispute, and whilst testing the Radio at Rivonia, this was a question which I raised with Accused No. 1. We had a discussion on it, and there we discussed as persons interested from the inside.

Yes?---And such a discussion again took place in the High Command, we had a short discussion on this question as members from the inside. Not as external observers.     

Did you know that Accused No, 1 had been to China

?---I suspected that Accused No. 1 had been to China

.

Yes, did it occur to you that that is where his knowledge of the dispute that you were talking about came from?---It is possible.

You have no evidence whatsoever that he was a Communist, like you?---Let me say that formerly associated with that one cell which met at Rivonia, but working for an organisation over a period of a year, certain associations appear. I have no direct evidence.     

Yes, but to come back to the question that there was originally - the co-operation between the two of you was a sincere one?---Indeed.

And is it not correct that what was between you and Accused No. 1 on the personal level, might well have been the position between the two organisations?---That is possible.

You know, of course, or you knew before your arrest Mr. Gay, that the theory was from time to time advanced, that there is no such thing as African Nationalism in South Africa

. There is only a feeling inspired by

-331-     L.S. GAY

Communists. You heard that often enough?---Yes, I heard this.

Did you have any respect for that view?---No.

Have you any respect for that view now?---No, I regard it as an erroneous view?

An erroneous view?---Yes.

Have you ever realised whilst you were giving evidence, that that is the impression that you were trying to get across '?---No, I did not.

You certainly did not intend such an impression to be created?---No,

BY THE COURT: Well now, he did not create that impression on me. In what way did he create it on you Mr. Bizos?---The witness went to great pains my lord, to suggest that the Communist Party was the controlling body.

Yes?---And it was in relation to that that these questions had been put. (Further discussion ensues on this matter between Court and Mr. Bizos).

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Well, do you deny that you served  on the High Command with No. 1 Accused?---No.

MR. BIZOS informs the Court that he did not suggest that Accused No. 1 did not serve on the committee.

AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS FUR LUNCH.

ON RESUMING:

LIONEL STANLEY GAY still under oath

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED):

Now Mr. Gay, do you remember that you told us that in the publication known as New Age, you saw the manifesto of. M.K. published?---No, I am aware of a report publicising the event of December the 16th.

-332-     L.S. GAY.

Yes?---I do not remember reading the manifesto, no.

Were you aware at any stage, whilst you were in M.K. of the manifesto of M.K.?---No.

Now, did you understand M.K. to stand for three things, that I am going to read out of its manifesto. It is an exhibit before your lordship, 'R.I.' think it is 'RP' my lord, one of the four that was handed in by consent. There is one sentence in the second paragraph that I want to read to you - "Umkonto We Ziswe....(quotes) ...of that movement". Was that your understanding of the role of M.K. whilst you were a member of it?---In the initial stages of my work with MK., as I said before, I understood it consisted of volunteers.

Yes?---But the question of the National Liberation Movement for me, did not arise at that stage. I still regard it as some nebulous term.

But you knew more or less which organisations consisted of the National Liberation Movement?---No - which organisations participated in M.K.     

Well, is it not the same thing?---No, I consider the term National Liberation Movement to be rather a nebulous term, embracing perhaps bodies with differences of opinion.

Now, did you understand, if you were to read this now, and you were told that it was issued in 1961, for the purposes of clarity, would you substitute National Liberation Movement for Congress Alliance? Would that make it clearer for you?---That would make it clearer.

Right. Now, is the expression National Liberation Movement sometimes used for Congress Alliance?---Not to

-333-     L.S. GAY.

my knowledge.

Now, the other paragraph that I want to read to you is this - " That the time comes....(quotes).... and our freedom". Now, what fight means in that context, is perhaps explained, and listen to the second last paragraph - "We, of Umkonto We Ziswe....(quotes)...." - The third last paragraph "We of Umkonto We Ziswe....(quotes).... and military rule". Now did you have any idea, in the early stages when you were a member of the Technical Committee that this was what Umkonto We Ziswe stood for?---Yes, I was familiar with this idea, yes.

Now, do you agree that in this idea that you were aware of, there was a definite stand or policy, that there should not be loss of blood?---Under the leadership of the old High Command, yes.

That is the stage that I am talking about, you need not qualify it every time. I will tell you when I changed to the subsequent thing. Now, did you think that Umkonto We Ziswe, having placed itself under the political guidance of the National Liberation Movement, could change its policy in regard to loss of life without reference to the bodies that may have constituted the National Liberation Movement?---Please repeat.

Did you think that Umkonto We Ziswe could change its policy in regard to loss of life without reference to the bodies that you thought constituted the National Liberation Movement?---I can only reply to this in the context of the new High Command.

No, if whilst you were a member of Umkonto We Ziswe, leave out the new High Command - whilst you were a member of Umkonto we Ziswe on its Technical Committee

-334-     L.S. GAY.

meeting at Rivonia, before the Rivonia raid...?---The Technical Committee did not meet…………

I am sorry, Empire Road - before the Rivonia raid, did you think that  Umkonto We Ziswe, could change its policy about the loss of life, without referring this to the organisations?---At that stage, it was clear to me that Umkonto We Ziswe, was a military organisation, subject to political leadership, that major decisions should be referred to the political leadership.

Right. Would you consider a question such as to whether life should be lost or not, a major decision? ---Indeed.

A major decision having very wide political implications?---Yes.

Now, you say that Accused No. 2 came to you towards the end of 1963, and said that we are an autonomous body?---At the first meeting, yes.

Did you believe that?---Later I questioned....

At the time that it was said to you, did you believe it - yes or no Mr. Gay?---I had reservations      about that.

You did not believe it?---No.

The reason why you could not possibly have believed it, must have been because you knew that this body had set itself under the guidance of the National Liberation Movement?---No, that this body was subject to a political leadership.

Now, did it occur to you as strange that here you were being approached to again risk your liberty, and that there was complete lack of sincerity on the part of Accused No. 2?---Not a lack of sincerity, perhaps I have

-335-     L.S. GAY.

not said this before - together with the statement we constitute an autonomous body, we must carry on with the job as best we can, Accused No. 2 added we are not to worry the political leadership, they are too busy with the Rivonia trial.

Well, that is indeed something new, but let us take you up on it Mr. Gay - what in fact, was said to you was this, that Rivonia has completely set back the organisation. Was that said?---No. This was common knowledge.  It was understood, and that there was no talk of a National High Command at that stage, but of a caretaker committee, in order that the organisation may reform itself?---That is the first I have heard of a caretaker committee.

Well, was the expression High Command mentioned?---This was mentioned when Mr. Kitson made a private approach. There is a new High Command, just prior to the first meeting.

Let us return to the original matter that we were enquiring about, that you did not accept the statement of Accused No. 2 on its face value?---No.

You knew that at all times, that there could not be major changes of policy without reference to the political leadership?---That was my view. That is why I made a strong recommendation on this principle of assassination, that it be referred to the higher body.

Now, I do not want to bore his lordship Mr. Gay, with a Soviet/Chinese dispute, but as it is somewhat relevant at this stage, to which did you subscribe -   to the Russian or the Chinese brand of philosophy?---The

-336-     L.S. GAY.

Chinese.

That is a more militant form of Communism? --Yes, but there is more to it than that.

Well, I am only interested in certain elementary aspects of it, as I said, I do not want to bore his lordship. Being more militant, I am sorry to use the expression, and more blood thirsty, in the sense of not being prepared to compromise, let us have a war and get everything over with?---I think you are simplifying the position.

Now, is there a small element of truth in it?---Yes, to the effect that the one side talks of ... theoretically, a peaceful transition and the other side, the Chinese side regards this as very remote, a very remote possibility.

A very remote possibility?---No historic adversity.

There is no such thing, I am just reminded by my learned senior, that there is anything like peaceful co-existence?---No, there is even peaceful co-existence.  The concept of a peaceful transition replies to an internal situation in a national state.

I do not want to enter into theoretical dispute with you Mr. Gay, but in view of the fact that you subscribe to this Chinese view, this paragraph in Umkonto We Ziswe's manifesto must have been nonsense to you? "We of Umkonto We Ziswe, have always sought as the Liberation Movement has sought, to achieve ....(quotes).... and civil clash". What would Mr. Mao Tse Tung say about that?---Repeat the paragraph please?     

"We of Umkonto We Ziswe....(quotes)....civil

-337-     L.S. GAY

clash"?---No, the Chinese point of view was that this is perhaps theoretically possible, practically impossible.

Well, would I be correct to answer my own question that Mr. Mao Tse Tung's view would be to poof-poof this suggestion? This sentence?

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Am I correct that this Umkonto only came into existence in December, 1961?---That is when the public announcement was made, to my knowledge.

Was it in existence before that time?---It would have been - no, not to my knowledge, preliminary discussions of course, were taking place.

Well, this expression "We of Umkonto We Ziswe, always sought" - well, can there be any foundation for it, because it only came into existence in that month when this manifesto was issued?---My lord, I do not quite understand?

According to the evidence that we have heard, this Umkonto We Ziswe came into existence in December 1961?---Yes.

And this manifesto is dated the 6th of December, 1961?---Yes.

So, this statement that "We of the Umkonto We Ziswe have always sought, as the Liberation Movement has... (quotes )....arid civil clash", well, that has no foundation and substance whatsoever, because this manifesto was to bring this body into existence?---That is as I understand it, yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED):

That sentence refers to the past does it not Mr. Gay?---It does.

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: What are you saying, when did the

-338-     L.S. GAY.

Umkhonto We Ziswe come into existence?

MR BIZOS explains to Court, that this was pasted up at the same time as the first acts of sabotage took place on the 16th of December.

BY THE COURT TO COUNSEL :  It may be so, but what do you say when did the Umkhonto We Ziswe come into existence?  (Further discussion ensues between Court and Mr Bizos on this matter, and Mr. Bizos explains that it was, in fact, formed in October, 1961.)

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS :  Did you know that?---Preliminary discussion?

Yes?---I was not aware of it my lord. This was the period when I had been introduced to the Congress of Democrats, but I think what the result is to me that such ……. the foundation of such an organisation would have been preceded by discussions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION_BY MR. BIZOS_ (CONTINUED):

Now, I just want to return to my original question Mr. Gay - this suggestion that anything could be achieved by acts of sabotage, was completely contrary  to your philosophy of life as a Communist supporting the Chinese ideology?---Contrary to my beliefs, and contrary also to the beliefs of the controlling bodies at the time when guerilla war was being considered, at a time when the old National High Command was still existing.

Now, confine yourself to the answer of my question, because I am not sure that I understood your answer in the form that you have given it - would you as an individual have thought that this was almost nonsense? --I would, yes.     

And that you wanted all-out civil war?----

-339-     L. S. GAY.

Let me put it this way - under suitable conditions.

Now, do you remember expressing similar views Mr. Gay, at meetings of this Committee, when it was suggested that you cannot go about killing people because they gave evidence in a trial? Did you take up the attitude that how did you expect to bring about conditions for a successful civil war?---For this reason I questioned sabotage. My point of view was that without mass support, only under mass support could one embark upon anything else. Without that, sabotage in itself, would achieve nothing.

Try and answer my question Mr. Gay - did you at meetings of this committee, suggest that if your co-members on this committee were so timid as not to be prepared to go about killing people who may have given in a case, conditions would not have been brought about suitable for a civil war?---I do not quite understand the question - please?

Did you at any meeting of the committee that you call the National High Command, suggest that conditions favourable to a successful civil war, were not likely  to come about, if the others on that committee with you were so timid as not to want to kill people that may have given evidence in cases?---No, I never made any such suggestion, as to the timidness of my colleagues.

Well, you are subscribing to this Chinese ideology?

COURT points out to Mr. Bizos that he understood the evidence to be that it was a unanimous decision to eliminate. Mr. Bizos explains that he is putting to the witness that there was no decision on this.     

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Am I correct, or am I wrong?---

-340-     L.S. GAY.

My lord that is the position - I agreed with the principle. I made a strong recommendation that we refer it to higher authority.

Yes?---There was the question of the Indian, I did not argue against it. I think I nodded an approval in favour of it, but it was subsequent to that, that I sought to leave the High Command. But may I say, on the question of the China/Soviet dispute, this was not discussed formally and lengthily, but it was discussed at private level essentially. I had the support of Accused No. 2.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED):

Well, if I understood Accused No. 2 correctly, it is going to be the opposite, that you were with his term - that you were supporting the Chinese ideology and that he was not - but let us take it one step further Mr. Gay - is it not correct that it would have been completely in line with your ideology that there should be no half measures?---In keeping with my concept of Mar- xism, any action must be preceded by a thorough analysis  of the situation. The strength of the support. I do not know whether the Court wishes me to elaborate.

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Yes, but you are at cross-purposes - he is asking you about the decision to eliminate? ---My lord, I think the concept of my philosophy is misunderstood by....

CROSS_EXAMINATION_BY_MR. BIZ0S_(CONTINUED):

Well, I did not want to bore his lordship with a theoretical exposition of the Chinese dispute. I am sure that his lordship is not interested in the full       implications, I certainly am not, but you have agreed that

-341-     L.S. GAY.

it is a more militant approach?---Yes.

It is enough for my purposes. Now, would it not have been completely in accordance with your attitude, or your approach to Marxism, that there should be no half measures - if people were traitors, they must be killed?---In principle perhaps, but when one is involved from the inside, theory and practice do not always coincide.

Now, I just want to return to one other question - you have already told us that you understood that these questions of policy, had to be referred to the political organisations?---No, the position as I understood it, was that we, the High Command, were subject to a political leadership.

Yes, and that you understood right through your association with Umkonto We Ziswe?---Yes, we could not, for example, embark upon guerilla warfare without approval of the political leadership.

Or loss of life for that matter?---In terms of the word autonomous, as used by Accused No. 2 introducing the first meeting, this was possible.

Now, when there was talk of this on this committee, and the evidence if need be, will be that you initiated the discussion that how can you have a successful revolution when you have people in Pretoria giving the whole game away?---Allow me to say again, that at the first meeting Accused No. 2 raised the question of informers.

Not you - alright. In this connection, the political organisations had not been consulted, before there was a decision to change the policy of Umkonto in regard to loss of life?---Please repeat that?

-342-     L.S. GAY.

According to you there was a decision to change M.K.s policy in regard to loss of life, before consulting the political organisations?---There was a decision in principle.

Now, why did you make yourself a party to that decision? Were you not being disloyal to your Communist Party?----No, it was considered a favourable policy by the other three. From my historical context I agreed with this. Being involved in it one has reservations, but I made the strong recommendation that it be considered to higher authority. From what Accused No. 2 said, this was not necessarily the case.

But now, look, you had been a member of the Communist Party, and you still were?---Indeed.

You knew, presumably, that the Central Committee is the governing body of the Communist Party? ---Indeed.

You have already told us that it is kept a secret amongst people in M.K., who is a Communist and who is not? Correct?---I do not think I said that, but that  is the position that one....

I am sorry, you are quite correct - I think it was another witness, but that is a correct statement. Now, what one would have expected, if your evidence is correct Mr. Gay, to do, is that you would have said as soon as this question was raised, "I must make contact with the higher up in the Communist Party, and find out whether this is now good policy or not"?---It was not for me to make contact. My contact was through Accused No. 2,     

Yes, but that was in the M.K., that was not

-342-     L.S. GAY.

in the Communist Party?---At this time, I was attached to no formal cell. This is the question which I sought to raise, that I should be given the opportunity of discussing basic party policy.

Yes, but you could still, as a member of the Communist Party, do you say that it was impossible for you to get in touch with the higher ups?---I got in touch with them through No. 2.

Well, was this the position then at this meeting - what are we discussing this question for? Can we make up our mind about matters of this nature? Is it not a matter for the political organisations?---That was my point of view, but if I take No. 2's statement literally, that was not the case. This reference to an autonomous body.

Well, did you during the course of this discussion ask No. 2 but when hasthere been a change that we can make decisions of this nature on our own?---I did not raise that question.

Why not?---I raised it in the sense of making a strong recommendation that this matter be referred to a higher body.

Yes, but you see the two are inconsistent, Mr. Gay, a man of your intelligence, are we to believe that you agreed that murder should be committed, and merely coupled with that, a recommendation that it should be referred to the political organisations?---This was the stage to which matters had borne in M.K.

Now, if I understood your evidence in chief correctly, and the answers given to my learned friend, you learnt later that is at a subsequent meeting,

-344-     L.S. GAY.

that the decisions of the National High Command were subject to the approval of the political organisations?---I do not understand this.

************

You did not understand that - very well, if it is there, it is there.--May I just say that I am not aware of this. It would have been the duty of No. 2 as chairman, as it were, there was no formal appointment, it would have been his duty to refer to the political leadership from time to time, and say this is what we are doing, this is what we are doing.     10

Officially, you did not know whether No, 2 was a Communist or not?---I have already referred to an application that was put to me by John Gizelle for mem bership of the Communist Party, which I passed on to Accused No. 2.

That was only an inference, that he was a Communist?---Allow me just to say what Accused No, 2 said,

Yes?---This was an occasion when I had been picked up at Kirchoffts Seed Store in town, and we were -proceeding to pick up the other two. It was on this occa-  sion that I passed this request on, and I said to Accused No. 2 I am not recommending John Gizelle, but I am passing on his request, to which Mr. Kitson replied, in words to the effect "We cannot be fussy at this stage. We do not have many applications at all".

Now, were you prepared to agree that murder be committed without direct and specific reference to your political organisation, to whom you were looking for political guidance?---In view of the statement Talms(?)

body, let me repeat, I do not think it is necessary, I       made a strong recommendation, but in our organisation we

-a4)-     L.J. u-Ai.

observed the rule that the majority decision holds, and even if I had put my foot down on that question, it was not raised by the other three members - this reference to political leadership, and it would have passed. Either then, if that happened, I should have left or subscribed to the views You did not think that you were wasting your time with M.K. did you Mr. Gay?---At times I had re servations about what we were doing.

But you did not think that you were Wasting your time? You took your duties seriously?---I did,

Now, there is andher question I want to put to you at this stage Mr. Gay - as you are standing there now, what do you think will happen to you if you depart in any material respect from the evidence that you have already given?---I shall be subject to severe punish ment, and possibly the worst.

Namely?---Partly why I am standing where I am today, that I was afraid of this.

I will repeat my question - what do you      think will happen to you if you depart from your evidence in any material respect?---Well, I am at the mercy of the Court.

What is the worst that you fear?---In view of the fact that I was a party to a number of serious decisions.

Yes?---The consequences could be very serious.

What do you think the consequences will be? ---They could be as much as a life sentence, or even a sentence of death.     

Has this been made clear to you by anybody?

-346-     L.S. GAY.

---It has not, but I know what went on, in the organisation.

Yes?---And I know that the Rivonia accused received a life sentence. I know that a second High Command was set up, disregarding as it were, the life sentence that was passed in the Rivonia trial.

Yes?---So we can hardly expect anything less than a life sentence.

So, you have given evidence, in your view, literally for your life?---Yes, and I have other reasons,

Now, since you have given evidence for     10 your life, I do not think that you are going to change any portion of your evidence, however hard you may be pressed?---I would change evidence where I am seriously convinced that I have omitted to tell the Court something, or I have made, an error which I sincerely believe --sorry, or in cases where, having made a statement which was queried, and if I acknowledge the incorrectness of it, I will be prepared to say so.

Now, you I am putting to you Mr. Gay,

have in front of your eyes a typewritten statement, have  you?---No.

Not literally - is that not so?---A type written statement.

A typewritten?---As to the evidence that I created to the Court?

Yes?---Certainly not. I have been in de tention for five months, and I have had ample time to think of my contribution and the contribution of others,

And even where the prosecutor tried to stop you from uttering a number of things, you decided that       you had to come out with it?---In the course of trying to

-347-     L.S. GAY.

establish a question, yes. I might have been wrong on Belt 58     this question, and it is a matter of procedure, but for example, you raised the question should everybody not know about an informer. I sought to tell you that this was not necessarily the case, and I raised other matters to try and confirm this. Perhaps I should not have done so, I am not aware.

In order that you may save your liberty, you have thrown overboard, have you not, the unofficial,

to say the least, oath of loyalty to the Accused?---Yes, this could be regarded as a disloyal act. It could be.

And I notice that originally you did not take the oath, you affirmed?---Yes, on the grounds of a question and the belief of God.

I beg your pardon?---For the simple reason that I did not want to bring God into my oath, because I am an atheist.

And you broke this oath to the accused, in order that you may achieve your liberty?

BY THE_ COURT_ TO_MR. BIZOS: Are you now wrapping him ac–   ross the knuckles for what he is doing, or are you crosst examining on evidence that he has given?---On the possible motives. (Further discussion ensues).

MR._BIZOS: I was going to put my lord, in my next question, that if he was prepared to break his oath of loyalty to the accused to in order to save his liberty, he might similarly not have told your lordship the whole truth.

CROSS–EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS CONTINUED)°

Did you hear the question Mr. Gay?-•--I       understand the lodcal argument.

Wtat is the answer?---What I have said in this witness box is the truth, I am aware of certain omissions, I can bring them to the attention of the Court, if the Court so desires.

Now, you see, on this one question for instance, the five months of detention might have per suaded you to the correctness of things that were not correct ]ffr. Gay - on this question that Accused No. 3 re-ported the death of an Indian informer, you are absolutely convinced of its truth?---The report came. Whether the     10 act was committed, I am not aware of this.

I beg your pardon?---The report was made. Whether the act was committed, only No. 3 will know the details.

Well, I am putting to you that this question of the only Indian found murdered in Johannesiurg during January, 1964, wp,s the subject of an inquiry in a Court of Law?---I put the date at about January.

And the information that you have given to the police, led them to believe that you were talking      about the death of one Gangat. Not to be confused my lord, with a similar name on the record as Ganga. The accused were interrogated about this, presumably on your statement to them. Now, in case No. G.276 of 1964, the circumstances of the death of this man were investigated by a Court, and four persons found to be involved in gangsterism, were convicted for his death. Does that shake perhaps-the confidence of your statement that a report was made?---I have told this Court the information which was brought to the High Command. I can say nothing else   in connection therewith. The information was brought, and I

-349-     L.S. GAY.

brought it to the attention of the Court, what was said,

I am going to tell you something else, per haps to see whether anyone can shake a faith in yourself - that there was a trial in this Court of a number of persons, where the State contended that the deceased in that case that was in this very Court, were killed because the other persons, the accused in that case, were responsible for the death of two persons who were suspected of the murder of Gangat? Have you got the picture?----I am not quite sure of the picture.     10

Well, I can simplify it very simple - that there was a case in this Court where the prosecution con-the tended that/ motive of a murder that the Court was trying,

was the death of Gangat? And that the motive was in order to square off in gangster warfare - does that shake the confidence that you have in yourself, that Accused No. 3 reported this?---No, not at all. Accused No. 3 made a report which I brought to the attention of the Court.

Now, the other question that I want to take up with you, is the question of the units being armed?      ---Yes.

Do you say that there was a decision that they should be armed?---A decision was taken to the effect that M.K. groups should endeavour to arm themselves.

Do you know whether that was ever communi cated to the groups?---I do not know. I do not see no reason why our decisions were not, any decisions were not.

Now, was that decision taken during the end of 1963, or the beginning of 1964?---Prior to mid-April at a melting in my home.     

1964?---Prior to mid-April, 1964, at a

-350-     L.S. GAY.

meeting in my home.. I can classify meetings in a number of ways. I do not remember which details were discussed when.

I just wanted the month and the year'?---Prior to that.

Now, did that question, or rather, was that question referred to the political organisations?---Not to my knowledge.

Would that not have been a change in policy? ---Yes, indeed because I understood that M.K. groups were never armed before.

Should not that have been referred to the political organisations?---I have no doubt that a report was made to the effect that this decision had been taken. If indeed the reverse did not take place, in the sense that the political leaderships made certain suggestions to Accused No. 2, if I am not aware of this. I suspect that procedure may have been adopted.

But now, did you not consider yourself merely a functionary and not a policy maker?---Myself?     20

Yes?---No, together with the other three mem bers of the National High Command, I was a policy maker. WITNESS:     In the sense that the original directive from Accused No. 2 that we consitute an autonomous body, get on with the job as best you can.

Yes, but you have already told us that very shortly after Accused Ido. 2 told you this, it became quite clear to you that that was not so?---In terms of the directive relating to informers and the Rivonia accused.

Your own words were that "I later learnt       that that was not so. We were subject to what Accused No. 2

called the political authority."---In the sense that this specific directive had been brought do not proceed with this case of informers, lest the chances of the Rivonia accused are prejudiced.

But we are now talking about another matter? ---All I am trying to point out is that the political leadership by virtue of their overriding authority, could counter-act our suggestions, our decisions.

Have you any recollection of either Accused No. 1 or Accused No. 2, or anyone else, coming and sayding that this question that M.K. units should arm themselves was discussed by the political organisations?---No. if

Would not/what you told us up to now is correct, would one not have expectei some sort of query by one or other of you, but what do the political organi sations say about this?---Mr. Kitson raised this question, the decision was made, I take it that was referred to the political leadership. They would not let us proceed without some liaison.

But surely, you considered yourself a      policy maker subject to the political guidance of some other body, would you not have enquired Mr. Gay "But what do the political bodies say about this?"---I did not on that occasion. I did not raise the question.

Nor on the prior occasion in regard to informers?---I made a strong suggestion that a certain decision be referred to higher authority.

I am again putting to you Mr. Gay, that you are incorrect in saying that there was a decision that the M.K. gxn ups should arm themselves?---No, there       was a decision.

You were, however, perfectly aware of the prior policy that members going out on sabotage were not to arm themselves?---I was not aware of that specifically, but in the context of our decision, that must have been the case. I was not closely associated with the old Natio nal High Command, but from what decisions we took, I concurred certain....

Did you follow the Rivonia trial fairly care fully?---Fairly carefully.

Do you remember that Nelson Mandela said     10 that he was of the first High Command?---No, I do not remember that statement.

Do you remember in his statement, his in-forming the Court that in order to avoid loss of life, there was a decision that people going out to commit acts of sabotage, should not be armed?---I do not remember that, but I have no doubt that this was the case.

Did you not follow his statement in the newspapers?---I did, but I am aware that it was a state ment which was not made under oath.     20

Oh I see, you bear that distinction too, yes. And you did not see this reference to the possi bility of loss of life?---No, I am aware that the old High Command was very adament on this question that life must be spared.

Have you ever been warned by your inter rogators Mr. Gay, that you must not expect as lenient a treatment as other persons on similar positions as yourself in the past?---No, this was not suggested to me.

I inferred it from what had taken place before.     

Now, ice. ...one or two aspects in regard to Accused No. 1 - is it not correct that he missed a fairly large number of meetings?---Accused No. 1?

Yes?---He missed two meetings.

Is that all? Not that it is so terribly important, but my instructions are that because he had to come from the townships, road blocks, security measures and that sort of thing, made him absent himself more often than you had hitherto said?---No, I remember two occasions. One on which Mr. Kitson was ill. Bri-Bri also failed to turn up, and then some time in June, when     10 I understand a system of rca blocks existed.

And one other small point - was it not Hodgson who reported on the Sasolburg act of sabotage? ---Yes, this was discussed at a meeting of the Technical Committee.

And Not No. 2?---No, in...this question was discussed this year,     not in the sense of a suggestion that this kind of sabotage take place, but Mr. Kitson again drew our attention to the fact that....

Yes, I am not joining issue with you Mr.      Gay, in your evidence in chief it appears that Accused No. 2 made the report, but I think that you were inter rupted. The record speaks for itself. It appears in your evidence in chief as if No. 2 made the report.

Now,....?---It is not necessary for me to...?

No, it has not been offered as a cf.ticism to you because it is consistent with what you said in your evidence in chief.

Now, I want to return to the other question Mr. Gay, and that is what should be done with informers.       In view of the fact that it might become necessary to

-354-     L.S. GcY

lead certain evidence, I want you to please try your best now to tell us the times at which decisions were made?---The principle was discussed at the first meeting.

Now, just give me the month?---I do not know whether I can give you the month, but I think our High Command was set up just before the original proceedings started. I have another statement which would throw light on this question.

No, if you could just try and give me the month. I do not want to burden the record with anything more. You can work out mentally in whichever way you please, but as long as you could give me the month more or less. I am only interested in dates at the moment? ---November or December, the first meeting at which the principle was discussed.

Yes, and you say that there was a decision to eliminate informers?---In principle.

Then when was the next meeting when this question was discussed?---I think at that stage, we probably met weekly. If the case of Hepple arose at all, it would  have arisen perhaps, the week after or two weeks after.

So that that would make it approximately the middle of December?---Not necessarily, I said November or December when we set up. Depending what time in November, so that it will carry one....

Well, perhaps I might assit you - the evi dence in the Rivonia trial commenced on the 2nd of De cember, I want just check - yes, it was the 2nd of De cember - that might assist you, because this question of dates becomes somewhat important. The actual evidence,       never mind the indictments and quashings - the actual evi-

dence started on the 2nd of December?---Yes. Are you interested in the case now?

BY THE COURT _TO_,NITNESS_ That is just to give you a date, and in relation to that date, can you determine?---The commencement of the evidence at the trial proper - I am just a bit puzzled about the quashing of the original indictment.

COURT asks Mr. Bizos to give witness that date. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED)a

For your information, that was, in case     10 that assists you, I think that was on the 29th of October. ---Let me put it this way - that if the case of Hepple was discussed at all, it would have been discussed about a week before he left the country. A week of that order, and the principle a week before that.

When did Hepple leave the country?;--I am not certain.

Will you be surprised to hear that the only discussion that there was about Hepple, was when he ... after he had been branded a traitor in Freedom Fighter     10

No. 1?---I do not think     

I beg your pardon? Apparently I are wrong did the Freddom Fighter come out in June or January?---I cannot tell you. I read No. 2. Whilst detained I had subsequently seen other editions, whether they bear dates or not, I do not know.

And the only discussion that there wqs about Hepple, I am going to put to you was initiated by Accused No. 1, what right had they got to brand him a traitor, he did not even...?---No, if Hepple was discussed  at all, he was not discussed in that context.

the Rivonia trial. Are you interested in that?

I just wanted to know when the question of political leadership arose - was it at the first meeting? ---That is when it was mentioned.

Yes?---Whether the names were mentioned at this stage, I am not certain.

where

At the same meeting, / the question of the liquidation of informers was discussed, the question of political leadership was discussed, is that right?---Not discussed.

Mentioned?---Mentioned.

And as you have already told us, the question of political leadership, you understood to mean the Communist Party?---I understood that, and if the names were mentioned at that stage, that would have confirmed my belief, otherwise it would have been a strong one later.

Well, even without mention of names, you still would have thought that the political leadership was the Communist Party, as you have already told us?---Yes.

And you owe allegiance to the Communist      Party - you are a Communist yourself?---Yes.

And the discipline of the Communist Party, I take it is very strict?---Not very strict.

I beg your pardon?---It is a matter of degree. It is strict, but not very strict.

Anyway, you would not like to take a decision apart from that of the Communist Party?---If I was dele gated to do such decision making, it is a different matter.

In any event Mr. Gay, the point is that you, when the question of informers was discussed, on the first   meeting, you then suggested that the matter be referred to

--356-     L.S. GAY.

the political leadership?---By virtue to the serious nature of this question.

And you would have been prepared to subject your-self to any directive which came from the political leader ship?---Yes, one either submits oneself, or one leaves the organisation.

And you would have subjected yourself to that directive?---If it came to action, that would be a different matter.

It is a simple question Mr. Gay - you would have subjected yourself to the directive of the political leadership, because you knew that the political leadership was the Communist Party?---While I remained a member of the Party, yes.

And you remained a member of the Party?---Yes.

Now, the question of the Indian informer, that you say Accused No. 3 mentioned, the liquidation of the Indian informer, when did that arise?---     

At what meeting?---I do not keno~* which speci fic meeting - I pint this at about January. It could have  been later, it could have been earlier.

In any event, it was after the first meeting? ---Indeed, yes.

And at that stage, you already knew that the political leadership of M.K. was against the killing of informers?---No, not at all.

Well, what is it?---This directive was brought to us after the report back regarding the Indian, and before action could be taken in the case of the African informer.

In other words, when the question of the       Indian informer was brought to your attention, no directive had arrived yet from the political leadership?---As I said before, I made this recommendation to be referred, I do not remember specifically Mr. Kitson saying that yes, I have indeed referred it to them and the answer is yes. This I do not remember.

In any event, there was about four or five intervening meetings from the first one to the one in which the case of the Indian informer was discussed?---It could be four or five, yes.

And did you not ask what the political leadership felt about the killing of informers? Did you not enquire?---I did not ask, because the report hack go ahead was made to the effect,/but I do not remember this specific report being made. I can only conclude the point of view of my own suggestion.

You say a report was made go ahead. In other words, go ahead with political killings?---No, I am sug gesting that if this report was made, I have said again and again that I do not remember the specific report being brought. Having made that strong suggestion if it was      brought, I would have askei..about it.

In other words, it boils down to this that you felt very strongly - you did not want to embark upon any decisions until you knew what the Communist Party thought about it?---Not any decision.

This particular decision I am talking about? ---Yes.

Now, when the question of the Indian informer arose, it was mentioned you say, by Accused No. 3?---Accused

No. 3, Mr. Chiba,       Before I go any further - Accused No. 3 of

-360-     L.S. GAY.

course, denies this evidence, that he ever mentioned the question of an Indian informer:     In any event, a decision was taken then when Chiba, Accused No. 3, mentioned this thing about the informer, a decision was taken to liquidate him?---A decision was taken.

But why did you approve of it Mr. Gay? I cannot understand that - why did you approve that this Indian informer should be liquidated? Why did you approve of it?---I said before, I did not argue agaInst this, I did not speak in favour, I think I nodded my approval.

Well, I take that to be approval?---Now, this on the basis of a general decision in principle, made earlier.

But you were bound Mr. Gay, not by the M.K. or its committees. Your first loyalty, you implied that in your evidence, was to the Communist Party?----And as such I had been delegated by them to serve on the High Command.

Very well, but your loyalty was still with the Communist Party?---That I had been given a job to do      on the High Command.

Very well. Your loyalty to the Communist Party was so strong that you referred the question of the killing of informers, you insisted that it be referred to the Party?---I would not argue that. I would rather suggest that I considered this matter such a serious one that I made the strong recommendation that it be referred to the higher body.

Mr. Gay, would it not have been far more logical that when the question of the killing of the Indian   informer arose, for you to have said we still have to await

-361-     L.S. GAY.

a directive from the political leadership. Would that not have been the far more logical thing for you to have done?---I can only say what I have said before, if I did not raise that then Accused No. 2 must have cone to us and said they approve.

No, but your evidence is entirely different to that!---No, I said that I do not recall specifically Mr. Kitson saying so, reporting back that he had been above.

Well, I might have misunderstood your evi dence, but I understood you to say that it was reported back to the committee that there should be no killing of political informers whilst the -Rivonia trial was still in progress?---No, no, this was subsequent to the case in volving the Indian, and while the African informer was being watched, as reported by Accused No. 1.

In any event, the truth of the matter is that when, as you say Accused No. 3 mentioned the question of the Indian informer, you did not bother to insist that a directive...that before any decision can be taken, the Party must first say what its views are?---No, I can only  conclude that, following my recommendation, this was done and that the political leadership approved. Although I repeat I do not remember Mr. Kitson saying so specifically, BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: This African informer, where was he - in ----Johannesburg-- or.... ?---Yes.

In Johannesburg

?---In Johannesburg

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HARE (CONTINUED):

Well, in any event Mr. Gay, it was quite easy to get in touch with various Communist Party cells in Johan nesburg?---Not for me.

But for Mr. Kitson it would have been?---I

presume soy because he brought the original directive, about my appointment.

In your evidence in chief Mr. Gay, you say that Mr. Kitson brought a directive from the National High Command....brought a directive to the National High Command, from the political leadership to the effect that no action should be taken against informers, lest the chances of the Rivonia accused be prejudiced. Now, do you say this di rective came after?---Subsequent to the report about the Indian.

And did the political section at any stage say no action should be taken against anyone?---This is what the directive said.

Yes?---But subsequent to a report involving an Indian.

Yes, but do you know what month the directive came?---I cannot remember the specific date - I can put this at about February. That is all I can say. It could have been March.

In any event Mr. Gay, No. 3 qs I have put to  you denies any knowledge of this, and he says that whilst in custody, after he was detained, he was interrogated about the killing of an Indian man, by the nary of Gangat. As a matter of fact, all the accused say that they were questioned about the killing of an Indian Gangat. Now, did you suggest that name to the policc?---Not at all.

Did the police question you about this person Gangat?---They sought further information on the question. I could not help them.

In other words, you gave no information, other than what you have told the Court?---I did not have the A

-363-     L.S. GAY,:

information to give.

Anyway, I must tell you that Accused No. 3 was questioned about Gangat's killing, and it is quite clear that he was killed in a fight, that he killed some-body and that he was killed in return by others who were present. You do not know anything about that?---No, nothing at all.

Also the question of the carrying of arms, Accused No. 3 also says that at no stage was any decision taken that M.K. units would carry any arms,--- ....

Now the question is this - when the question of arms was discussed, did you insist that the matter be taken to the political committee?---I did not.

Can you give any reason why not?---I did not consider this such a serious question.

No, for what purpose did you think Mr. Gay, people carry arms? Surely it is to kill?---That I have told the Court - I understood this decision to be taken so that groups actively engaged in sabotage could protect themselves if confronted by the police.

In other words, shoot the police? That is what it boils down to?---It would come to that, yes.

You see, on the one hand when the question of an informer is discussed, yu refer the matter to the political committee, and yet when the shooting of other people are considered, you do not consider that necessary to be referred to the political Committee. Now you said Mr. Gay, it is not logical really is it?---Allow me to say that working for this organisation, one initially raises questions about building times, then you get accustomed       to the idea, and so it progresses on and on.

-364-     L.S. GAY.

In other words, you try to tell his lordship that a man with your intelligence, going into the thing with your eyes open, was completely carried away with the passage of tirne?---I would say that, yes. I would say too that

Thank you Mr. Gay.

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Yes complete your sentence?---My lord, I was going to add that this question of arming, was a strong recommendation, a strong, very strong sugges tion by Accused No. 2. Mr. Kitson made the suggestion.

MR_ HARE: No further questions.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS:

Mr. Gay would you mind looking at this exhibit R.39?---Yes.

Do you recognise that document?---Yes, Pro-gramme of the South African Communist Party - Ruth First passed me a copy of this document.

I think you did refer to a document in your evidence this morning, did you?---Yes, today. Programme of the Party.

And that was a document which was handed to you by a fellow Communist?---Yes. I was never associated with Mrs. First herself, but I understood she was a member of the Party.

Well, to whom did you make the approach for it?---To her, yes.

You asked her?---Yes, because I was not.... this was mentioned before that when First saw me, that is prior to the Rivonia raid in connection with building a new transmitter, in connection with the suggestion as   to what I put an Indian in Durban or from Durban, to do,

-365-     L.S. GAY,     S'.11.0+40-

A. MTEMBU. *     KHvni}

A', 801'r1Sit/t     CIA

max'; u..

and it was at one of those meetings that I said how abE3outs 3

. something to read.

MR. MASTERS: No further questions.

(WITNESS IS EXCUSED)

-----------------

ABEL MTEMBU, still under oath (Recalled)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS:

Mr. Mtembu, you speak ' n„lish well enough do you not?---I would not say that.

Well, you understood that anyway. Alright, the questions will not be very difficult, if you do not     10 understand any question, you can appeal to his lordship. COURT instructs that interpreter stands by.

MR. BIZOS: Informs Court that he will not cross-examine this witness, as the previous witness, on the merits of the case.

CROSS_EXAMINATION_BY_MR._BIZOS (CONTINUED):

You told us that you joined the African Na tional Congress when?---In 1954 if I remember very well.

And were you born here in Johann - abur_ ? -__

I was born in Pretoria

Now, when you joined the African National Congress, it was a legal organisation?---Correct.

Now, your organisation, the nfrican National Congress, was declared an unlawful organisation in 1960 in April?---Correct.

Were you detained in 1960?---During the state of emergency.

During the state of emergency?---Yes.

Now, when you came out, I take it you con-

tinued being a member of the African National CoiFr.':;?---     

-4 -     L.S. GAY.

AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS UNTIL 2 P.M. ON RESUMING:

THE COURT RECALLS:

LIONEL_STANLEY_GAY (affirms)

BY THE. COURT TO NITNESS: Mr. Gay, when you were about to give your evidence last time, you said that you wanted to affirm?---Yes.

And then you proceeded to say that you swore that you will speak the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth - did you regard that as a proper affiroration?---I said my lord, that I affirm that I shall tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

And when you said that did you realise that you were bound to speak the truth, and if you did not speak the truth, you would be guilty of perjury?---I rea lised that my lord.

And do you adhere to what you have said?---I do;

On the previous days?---Yes.

You do not wish to add anything to it, or re-  tract from it?---My lord, there are some minor points where I do not think I made myself clear. For example, when I was asked who I saw at Rivonia, I answered that question in the context of my activities as a member of a cell of five. It was after that cell met ...had stopped meeting, that I had cause to test the radio there, and on that occa sion, during the day, I had cause to see other person. This I did not mention when that question was put to me.

Yes?---And my lord, when I was asked if I

had had anything to do with other political organisation,   I omitted to say that I was approached in Durban by other persons, I was sympathetic for a time, this was before I joined the Congress of Democrats, but I was approached by a person who mentioned the Socialist League. I was sympa thetic for a time, but I soon made a complete break with that.

Is that all you wish to add? Mr. Gay, in giving evidence last time, you - it is on page 325 of the record "After Rivonia, that is after the 11th of July, 1963, were all your dealings with Accused No. 4 in connection with the radio?" Reply "All my dealings".     10 Then the prosecutor said "Yes", and you continued "No, not all my dealings. What other....(quotes),...Esra".

I am sorry, I do not wish to refer to that     There is a
passage on page 224 where you said "I understood that his most important taks, he might have had other tasks not to my knowledge, was to establish a contact with the so-called.." Now the typist could not make out the word that you used? The paragraph which preceded that was "Yes, what is quite Clear to you      Yes, I think Mr. Ezra was such an ex-

ample". And then you were asked in what way, and then      you proceeded with that matter. You can look at the evi dence, perhaps you can tell us what you were intending to say?

MR.-BIZOS: Is your lordship referring to 32# where there is a question mark?     That should be there is "B's". The witness went on further to explain that that is a class of member of the Communist Party, who thinks that he is not known to the police.

BY THE COURT TO-WITNESS: Then that clarifies that. Then Mr. Gay, this operation Mayebuye, do you know this docu-   ment?---No my lord, I have never ren9 this document. It

-432-     L.S. GAY.

might have been in the hands of Goldreich when he con-ducted the first meeting of the Logistics Committee. That I am not sure of.

Do you know this document, Jxhi bit^' R.1' ? ---No my lord.

Do you know the handwriting?---No, I do not recall ever seeing this before.

Well, can you turn over two pages? Do you know that handwriting?---No my lord.

MR. BIZOS: I might make an admission my lord. My lord, pages 1, 2 and 3 of this are in the handwriting of Wolpe. That is the first three top pages written in blue ink, and the balance is in Goldrei ch' s handwriting. This was proved at the Nelson Mandela trial.

BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Then in this document which was handed to your Mr. Gay, towards the end it deals with various matters, inter alia ideology?---Which document?

Now, that is Exhibit 1 which I asked you to look at. It first deals with military organisation, then physical commando course, with its sub-departments, and Tactics Course and then Training in two section - Ideological and Physical, and then Chequavara is quoted, saying "I believe physical secondary to ideological the best trai ning in the field." Then "My own experience in Israel",

and then "Ideological     (quotes) National Policy". Can you throw any light on that?---The last section, details of National Policy.

Yes, well, it seems to suggest that what is necessary when action is contemplated, is to have a particular kind of training, inter alia, an ideological   training?---Yes.

L.D. eAl.

And then ideological training is the poli tical aspect?---Yes.

And matters to be considered under the poli tical aspect, includes fundamentals in Marxism and Lenninism?---Yes.

firm

Is that so?---It is my/opinion that any are Communist on force,/not simply a body of soldiers, but a body of soldiers who are trained. Well, certainly the upper strata of the armed force would be a body of per-

sons who are politically conscious, who receive political instruction from a person who will be called a political commissar.

Well, has that got anything to do with the African National Uongress?---I would say not, no,

Then the Natiorel question - what could fall under thati,?-.-My lord, I have not a very clear under-standing of Marxism, but I think this refers to the ques tion regarding nationalities in a State, I am not clear Belt 70     on the problem,

And notes on a national democracy----My lord,  without more information, I cannot say whether that would refer to a Bushwer(?) Democracy to which I refered the other day., or a people's democracy,

MR, MASTERS: No questions.

CROS$EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS:

Mr. Gay, when you gave your evidence, you were still detained under what we know as what we know as Section 17, of the 1963 General Law Amendment Act, more commonly known as you were detained for a period of 90 days or more?---Yes.     

And you knew whilst you were giving your evidence

-434-     L.S. GAY.

you knew that the police in whose custody you were, had the power to hold you for an indefinite period?---Yes.

And you have subsequently released after you gave your evidence?---I have been.

And you knew, whilst you were giving your evidence on the prior occasion, that if you did not satisfy the persons who were holding you, you might continue to be held?---No, I regard them as just a party in a parti cular trial. In my own mind, I consider myself at the mercy of the Court, not at the mercy of the State.

The mercy of...?---The mercy of the Court, and not at the mercy of the State.

Well, did you not know that the police could continue holding you for what is loosely termed as 90 days, irrespective of whether you got an indemnity from the Court or not?---1 am sure they would, if they sus pected that I was involved in other matters, which I had not disclosed to them.

MR BINS: No further questions.

MR.HHARE: No questions.

MR. MASTERS: No re-examination.

-------------------------

S T A T E C A S E.

MR. BIZOS closes the case for Accused Nos. 1, 2, 4 and 5, subject to one or two reservations which he wants to enu merate. (1) in judgment as to whether or not Accused Nos. 1, 2, 3 and the witness Gay, having decided that informers should be killed. (2) As to whether or not there was a decision to arm units of I.K. (3) As to whether or not any person, and more particularly, one Gangat was killed, because it was thought that he was an informer. (4) As to whether or not there was a call to commit sabotage, in the proposed broadcast of the 25th of June, 1964. .4R. BIZUS: Further addresses the Court on this aspect,

and also that if it is deemed necessary on the question of punishment, the accused want to reserve their right to lead evidence in rebuttal of that given by Mr. Gay after your lordship's finding, on the legal finding of the in dictment before the Court.

MR. HARE closes the case for Accused No. 3 on the merits, subject to the same conditions mentioned by Mr. Bizos, appearing for the other accused.

BY THE COURT TO MR. MASTERS Do you agree to the reserva tion Mr. Masters?---Yes.

AT THIS STAGE THE CASE IS POSTPONED TO THE_8TH_OF DECEMBER _1964.

This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. Return to the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory site.