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Name: Paulos Mcikeleni Mbatha

27-01-1999: Day 8

Held At: Vereeniging

Application No: Am6121/97

Matter: Boipatong Massacre

ON RESUMPTION ON 27 JANUARY 1999 - DAY 8

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Mr Mbatha, what is your standard of education?

MR MBATHA: Standard four.

MR BERGER: Are you presently in custody?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Were you released on bail when your co-accused in the criminal trial were released on bail, and have you been out of jail ever since?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: When were you released on bail?

MR MBATHA: I cannot remember the date, but I think it was in 1995.

MR BERGER: And since then, where have you been living?

MR MBATHA: I went to stay at Khayelitsha, and I went back home.

MR BERGER: Is that Khayelitsha Hostel in Sebokeng?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: When did you go home?

MR MBATHA: I stayed there for only a week and I went back home thereafter.

MR BERGER: You stayed at the hostel for a week, and then you went back home?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And that's to Nongoma?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And when did you return to the Khayelitsha Hostel?

MR MBATHA: I cannot remember very well, but I stayed home for quite a long time.

MR BERGER: Were you back in the Khayelitsha Hostel in 1997?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you've been staying in the Khayelitsha Hostel from 1997 until now?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Do you leave from time to time to go home?

MR MBATHA: Yes, sometimes I go home.

MR BERGER: When did you decide to apply for amnesty?

MR MBATHA: I took that decision last year.

MR BERGER: When, can you be more specific?

MR MBATHA: I cannot remember the date, but it was just after I was discharged from hospital, round, just around the Easter holidays.

MR BERGER: So would I be correct to say that the first time that you decided to apply for amnesty was Easter 1997?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Well when was the first time you decided to apply for amnesty? I beg your pardon, Easter 1998?

MR MBATHA: It was (indistinct) 1998, during the Easter holidays I was home.

MR BERGER: Yes, my question is, when did you first decide that you were going to apply for amnesty?

MR MBATHA: It was in 1998, I cannot remember whether it was August or September, it was when I had just arrived from home.

MR BERGER: If you have a look at your application, which starts at page 210A, have a look at page 210C and you'll see there a date, the 7th of August 1998, would that be the time when you first decided to apply for amnesty?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I can say so.

MR BERGER: Before that you had not given anyone an instruction that you wished to apply for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MBATHA: No, I did not tell or instruct anyone.

MR BERGER: Now, you told the committee yesterday that when you heard that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong, you said, "Thank you, because I've been waiting for this", remember that?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And yet you tell the committee that the first time that you ever heard about any talk about an attack was on the 17th of June 1992, am I right?

MR MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You never attended a single meeting, prior to the 17th of June, at which there was talk of a possible attack, not on Boipatong, but of a possible attack, you didn't attend any such meeting?

MR MBATHA: Will you please repeat your question, sir?

MR BERGER: Prior to the 17th of June, you never attended a single meeting where there was talk of an attack, is that right?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: It's not right?

MR MBATHA: I never attended such meetings.

MR BERGER: Not only that, but you never heard from anyone else that there had been such meetings, am I right? You say no, but... (intervention).

MR MBATHA: I never heard anything to that effect.

MR BERGER: How is that possible, because we know that there were meetings prior to the 17th at which there was talk of an attack, and if you were so keen to attack, how is it possible that you never had a single conversation with anybody discussing a possible attack?

MR MBATHA: My problem is this, I was always at work, I was only there at Kwamadala Hostel on a Monday, the date was the 15th and the following day was going to be the 16th, which was going to be a holiday, that is why I had to come back from work. During the mampara week, I wouldn't come to the hostel.

MR BERGER: What's the mampara week?

MR MBATHA: It is the week where you work Saturday and Sunday without a pay.

MR MALINDI: Did you sleep at your place of employment?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And where was that?

MR MBATHA: It was at Vereeniging.

MR BERGER: How often would you sleep in the hostel?

MR MBATHA: I would sleep there sometimes if I was off during weekends, I would go to the hostel and spend a weekend there.

MR BERGER: And that's how it was throughout 1991 and the first half of 1992, that you would spend weekends at the hostel, if it wasn't the mampara week?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: During those weekends, you never had a discussion with anybody during which you were told that there was talk of a possible attack?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: If you were at work on Wednesday, the 17th of June 1992, why did you not sleep there that night?

MR MBATHA: On the 17th of June, I was at Kwamadala Hostel. I arrived on a Monday, because I was off on a Tuesday, and I woke up early on the Wednesday, I went to work, I came back in the evening.

MR BERGER: Well that's my question, Mr Mbatha, if you went to work on Wednesday, the 17th of June, why did you not sleep there as you normally did on a Wednesday night, because you were going to go to work again on the Thursday, the 18th of June, why was it necessary for you to come back to the hostel that night?

MR MBATHA: It was not easy to get public transport, taxis, during the weekends, it was better during the week, but it was very difficult for us to get public transport on weekends.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think what counsel is asking you is this, you've told us that you normally slept at your place of employment, and during the week of the 17th you returned to the hostel on Monday because you were not working on Tuesday, and that on Wednesday you were working, but you returned to the hostel after work. You were working on Thursday and you were working on Friday. Now what counsel wants to find out is, because you normally spent, if you normally slept at your place of employment, given the fact that you were working on Wednesday and you were going to go to work on Thursday and on Friday, why was it necessary for you to come back to the hostel on Wednesday, why didn't you sleep at your place of employment, as you normally do? Do you understand the question? Is that what you want to put, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Indeed.

MR MBATHA: You mean the reason that made me to come to the hostel on Wednesday or Thursday?

CHAIRPERSON: Let me see what I can explain to you in Zulu. You told this committee, you have told the committee that you would work and sleep at work, stay over at your workplace on this week - no, no, no, not at your workplace, Ms Interpreter, during the week of the 15th, you went back to the hostel on a Monday. You did that because you were not going to work on the Tuesday, but you were going to work on Wednesday and Thursday and Friday. Is that so?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What the counsellor wants to know is this, as you used to sleep at your workplace during your working days, what made you to decide to go back to the hostel on Wednesday instead of staying over at your workplace? Do you understand the question?

MR MBATHA: It was just a coincidence, because I came back on Thursday also.

MR BERGER: Now, Mr... (intervention).

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, can I just get some clarification on this point? You said, did I get you correctly when you said that you would sleep at work when it is a mampara week?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: And your definition of a mampara week is the week when you would not be paid but you would work even on Saturday and on Sunday?

MR MBATHA: Yes, that was the previous week.

MS CAMBANIS: So were you paid fortnightly?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: And then on the week that you would be paid, where would you sleep?

MR MBATHA: I would come back and sleep at Kwamadala Hostel.

MS CAMBANIS: In other words, the weekend preceding - when you wouldn't be paid, you would sleep at work and then the following week when you would be paid, then you'd sleep at the hostel, is that your evidence?

MR MBATHA: Yes, sometimes I would come back to the hostel if there was a need for me to do so.

MS CAMBANIS: Would you come back during the week or would you come back during the weekend?

MR MBATHA: I would come back even if it's during the week, but I used to come back mostly on weekends.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbatha, I thought I understood from you that you spent most of your time at work and sleeping at work, and occasionally you would spend weekends at the hostel, is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I would be present during some weekends.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just see whether we can get clarity on this. Did you always sleep at your place of employment?

MR MBATHA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: How often would you return to the hostel?

MR MBATHA: I would come back after knocking off on a Friday, if it's still early I would go to the hostel and leave on a Monday. Sometimes I would just come or sometimes I wouldn't, I would stay over.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that you would return to the hostel during the week at times?

MR MBATHA: Yes, if I happened to knock off early, I would go to the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and sometimes you would only go to the hostel over the weekend?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether that clarifies, madam.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbatha, do I then understand you correctly to say that you actually spent more time at the hostel than just the occasional weekend?

MR MBATHA: Not most of the times.

MR BERGER: I didn't get that translation.

MR MBATHA: Yes, I used to go to the hostel and stay there, but most of the times I would be at my workplace.

MR BERGER: And in order for you to get to the hostel, am I correct that you would have to take public transport from Vereeniging to Kwamadala?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: How did you get to the hostel?

MR MBATHA: I would take a taxi to Terela, and I would alight at the robots.

MR BERGER: And you would have to pay for that taxi?

MR MBATHA: Yes, the transport is not free, public transport is not for free.

MR BERGER: So unless you had a need to return to the hostel during the week, it was cheaper for you to sleep at work during the week and only return to the hostel on weekends, am I right?

MR MBATHA: Yes, that used to help me also, but most of the time I would stay over because of knocking off very late.

MR BERGER: And so the reason you went to the hostel on Wednesday, the 17th of June, was because there was a need, am I right, it wasn't just a pure coincidence?

MR MBATHA: I said it was a coincidence.

MR BERGER: And the need, I put it to you, was because you knew that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong that night, that's why you didn't sleep at work, that's why you returned to the hostel that afternoon, correct?

MR MBATHA: If I knew that, Mr Berger, I wouldn't hid that now, I wouldn't mention all the people that I injured there during that incident and decide to hide this simple information or minor information.

MR BERGER: It's not so minor, because then we would go in to all the meetings that were held before the attack, wouldn't we?

MR MBATHA: I regarded it as a minor thing, because no-one would die in such meetings, there were no murders or deaths.

MR BERGER: At the stadium, on the 17th of June - well let me ask you this, when the alarm went off, you went to the stadium, correct?

MR MBATHA: I did not hear the siren, I didn't even go to the stadium, I was not yet there at the hostel at the time.

MR BERGER: Well let me read to you what you say in your affidavit at page 210(I), the second paragraph on that page, you say:-

"On the evening of the 17th of June 1992, the alarm went off and all of us went to the stadium."

Is that not correct?

MR MBATHA: No, that is not true.

MR BERGER: But you confirmed this yesterday, Mr Mbatha, as being true?

MR MBATHA: No, all I said was this, when I arrived, the people were from the stadium. I inquired as to what was happening and they said it was time go and attack, that is when I said, I mentioned that (Indistinct)... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, we understand what your evidence is often concerning your role on the day in question. I think what's being put to you is that at the commencement of your evidence in chief, you were asked to confirm the contents of certain documents which were made available to you. One of those documents contains the statement that counsel has just put to you, do you understand that?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I do understand that, but this issue about the stadium is confusing me, I did not go to the stadium on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we understand that. I think what you're being asked is the simple question as to, if you didn't go to the stadium, why then did you tell us that the contents of the statement that was read to you were accurate?

MR MBATHA: I would like to apologise for that, that was a mistake from my side.

MR BERGER: You go on in your statement, the next sentence, you say:-

"There..."

meaning at the stadium:-

"...Quonquo said that we must attack Boipatong."

Now, leave aside the point that what you're referring to is what was said at the stadium, was it reported to you that Quonquo had said that you must attack Boipatong?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I was told.

MR BERGER: You were told that Quonquo had told the people at the stadium that they must attack Boipatong?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that you were told that Quonquo said, "We must attack Boipatong because we have had enough with the people of Boipatong"?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now that's all the people living in Boipatong, am I right?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I can say so, because it was mentioned, they mentioned all the people of Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And so the attack was an attack on all the people of Boipatong, correct?

MR MBATHA: Yes, but it was also mentioned that the people that were most wanted were the defence people.

MR BERGER: Why is there not a mention in your statement at 210(H) to (I), not a word about the self defence units, why is that?

MR MBATHA: I'm the one who did not mention that.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that. I think the question is, why didn't you mention that in your statement?

MR MBATHA: No, I do not have a reason, I do not have a reason for omitting that.

MR BERGER: The reason that you omitted it is because it was said at the stadium that "We are going to destroy Boipatong", and there were no fine distinctions drawn between the self defence units and the people of Boipatong, everybody knew at the stadium that there was now an attack to be launched, and everyone and everything in Boipatong was to be destroyed, that's the reason it's not in your statement, Mr Mbatha?

MR MBATHA: That is not true, I did not hear that instruction as to how to kill the people or who to kill at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Do I understand you correctly that you would have attacked the other townships like Sebokeng or Sharpeville, but Boipatong was chosen because it was the closest to Kwamadala.

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: If there had been police in Boipatong during the attack, and police vehicles in Boipatong during the attack, are you saying you would have seen it, you would have seen them?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And your evidence is that there was not a single police vehicle in Boipatong at the time of the attack, am I right?

MR MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MR BERGER: Not only would you have seen it, but even if you had not seen it, you would have heard about it from your co-attackers, am I right?

MR MBATHA: I would have seen them in they were in there at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And since the attack on Boipatong until today, you have never had a discussion with anybody, or heard anyone talk about the presence of the police in Boipatong during the attack, is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MR BERGER: But you did see a military vehicle as you were leaving Boipatong, am I right?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And that was when you were in the veld between Boipatong and the main road, the road that separates Boipatong from Kwamadala?

MR MBATHA: I did not see it at the road, I only saw it on our way out from the township, we were at the veld and this vehicle was headed towards Sebokeng, it made a turn at the filling station.

MR BERGER: If you're standing in the veld looking towards Kwamadala, are you saying that that military vehicle drove on the road in front of you, coming from your left, moving past you and going to your right towards Sebokeng?

MR MBATHA: It was a distance after we had left the township, we saw this vehicle approaching, making a U turn at the filling station.

MR BERGER: But am I correct, do I understand your evidence correctly that this military vehicle passed in front of you, quite a distance in front of you, but passed in front of you, from your left moving to your right and towards Sebokeng?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And after it had gone past you and got towards the robot, that was when it did a U turn?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And once it had done a U turn, what did it do?

MR MBATHA: It moved towards the firms (?).

MR BERGER: And was any attempt made to interfere with you or any of your co-attackers... (intervention).

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, Mr Berger... (intervention).

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, my notes say that it made a turn at the robots, I didn't hear them saying it made a U turn.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry, maybe I got it wrong, but the Zulu was not... (intervention).

MR MBATHA: Ja, (indistinct) said a turn, made a turn, made a turn.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbatha, just to be clear, this military vehicle, when it got to the robots, are you saying it turned right and moved towards the firms?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And what attempt was made to interfere with you or any of the co-attackers?

MR MBATHA: Yes, we were disturbed by their lights and we thought that they may have seen us.

MR BERGER: Other than that, was any attempt made to interfere with you?

MR MBATHA: It moved slowly, thinking that it had come at a higher speed, but this time it moved slowly, we thought it was suspecting something.

MR BERGER: Anything else?

MR MBATHA: Shots were fired, directed at this vehicle.

MR BERGER: By whom?

MR MBATHA: Domorotonga used his AK47 firing the shots.

MR BERGER: Anyone else fire any shots?

MR MBATHA: No, he is the only person I saw shooting.

MR BERGER: And the soldiers, did they do anything?

MR MBATHA: No, they just proceeded straight past the Cape Gate (?).

MR BERGER: Now, at the criminal trial, Mr Bojosi testified that he saw you at the stadium with a spear. Is that false?

MR MBATHA: He must be mistaken.

MR BERGER: But you did have a spear?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I did have a spear on our way to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And he testified that later in Boipatong, he saw, he saw you chasing a person who had climbed out of a Peugeot motor vehicle?

CHAIRPERSON: Just a second, if you don't mind. You told us that when you arrived at the hostel that evening, you were told that it had been announced that the day has arrived, is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you also say that people were supposed to arm themselves?

MR MBATHA: Did they say people should arm themselves? Yes, that's what I said, I wanted to know what was happening, and I was informed that Damara said that everybody should arm themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: And you went to your room and you fetched your assegai?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you go to after fetching your assegai from your room?

MR MBATHA: We then went out for intelezi(?), it was just outside the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: Near the stadium?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you say that Bojosi was not telling the truth at the trial when he said he saw you with a spear at the stadium?

MR MBATHA: I was referring to the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were near the stadium, or the arena in the hostel with a spear?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was telling the truth, was he?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I would say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: And later he said, or he says that he saw you later in Boipatong and he saw you chasing a person who had climbed out of a Peugeot motor vehicle. That's correct, is it not?

MR MBATHA: I don't know whether he said that or not, I cannot remember very well.

MR BERGER: Well... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You know, what counsel is putting to you now is what was said by Bojosi at the trial. You can take it that what counsel is reading to you is accurate, that's what Bojosi said at the trial. Do you understand that?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So all that he wants to find out is whether, was he telling the truth when he... (intervention).

MR MBATHA: Yes, he was telling the truth, because yes I did those things.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. His evidence is that the man had been hiding behind the Peugeot, was it not? That is the witness' evidence, that's my recollection.

MR BERGER: My note is that he tried - there was a Peugeot, he tried to conceal himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, behind the - yes, all right. Yes. Yes, thank you, Mr Berger. You say he was correct, he was telling the truth?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Moloi also gave evidence at the trial, and he said that he saw you on the road to Boipatong in possession of a spear. He was also correct?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I would say that, because yes, I was in possession of a spear.

MR BERGER: Now, I want to show you, or ask that you be shown the map of Boipatong, Exhibit J. Thank you. Have you seen that map before?

MR MBATHA: I do see this map, but I cannot make head or tail of it.

MR BERGER: Well, let me try and explain it to you. You'll see the little boxes in rows on this map, those are the houses in Boipatong. On the left-hand side, I beg your pardon, on the right-hand side of the map, those little boxes are the houses in Slovo Park. To the left of the map, but not on the map, is Kwamadala Hostel. At the top of the map, that last street, Amatolo, is the last street in Boipatong before the firms, so the firms would be at the top of the map, but they're not indicated there. At the bottom of the map is where you entered Boipatong, in the middle there, at the bottom. Perhaps if my learned friend could point it out? Thank you. And then right in the centre of the map you will find the shops, and next to the shops you will see an empty space indicated as a park. Now, are you in a position to indicate how you moved through Boipatong and where it was that you stabbed the two people that you spoke about yesterday?

MR MBATHA: I do not see a thing here, somebody may have to show me.

MR BERGER: Let me try a different approach. The house where you found that woman, or a girl, I'm not sure, trying to jump out, and you asked her where the comrades were, remember that?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: You said that that house was near the shops?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Sorry, chair, if you'll just bear with me for a moment? Chairperson, I'm in a difficult position, because I don't want to set off another, well I don't want to set off anything, and yet the victims want to know - want me to try and establish as accurately as possible who is responsible for the death of their loved ones, I'm going to be a little bit obtuse.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what must be understood is that this committee is the only one which has to make a decision whether or not the applicants are entitled to amnesty, which is dependent upon whether the committee is satisfied that they have made the full disclosure and that whatever they did was associated with political motives, those are the issues that are we concerned with, and I think one has to be, all of us understand what happened that night, we're sensitive to that, but I think our duty is the one that I've just outlined. Yes.

MR BERGER: Yes, chair, and in the interests of full disclosure, I have to put certain things, but I'm going to try and be as obtuse as possible, without being vague. Mr Mbatha, at a house near the shops, five people were stabbed in that house... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going through your memo?

MR BERGER: Yes, I am... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: ...it's on page 11 of the annexure to the memo.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I'm sorry, (indistinct).

MR BERGER: It's very close to the shops, in fact it's over the road from the shops, and that's the only house in the vicinity of the shops.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it No 625?

MR BERGER: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Five people were stabbed in that house, two men, two males and three females, I beg your pardon, three males and two females, and one of them, a very small boy, a very young boy, three of them young children, but a little older, and one a woman. I don't know if I've put that accurately, but... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'll take it that you are referring to the names that appear... (intervention).

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...across No 625?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. It is three males and... (intervention).

MR BERGER: Two females.

CHAIRPERSON: ...two females?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Well I can give you the ages, because otherwise it might not be accurate.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think it's accurate, you know, ja, it's fair enough. Mr Mbatha, did you understand what counsel is putting to you?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I understand.

MR BERGER: And you see, what I'm suggesting to you, Mr Mbatha, is that you're downplaying what happened in that house. You say one person was stabbed, I'm putting it to you five people were stabbed.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, it's not been established that this applicant was in that house, so I think it's an unfair statement to say that he's downplaying what happened in that house, because it's not been established that the applicant was in that specific house.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's a fair question. The evidence that we've heard from Mr Mbatha is that he entered a house in the vicinity of the shops, he is not able to tell us which house, where he stabbed a woman. Now, according to Mr Berger's instructions, as would appear from page 29 of the memorandum, at a house, No 625, which is in the vicinity of the shops, five people were stabbed, three males and two females. So what's being put now is that that is the house where he went into, you know, and that he is under-playing his role, it's entirely up to him to say, "No, I didn't enter that house", or "I'm not under-playing", but I think that's the best way, I think, it can be, the issue can be canvassed.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, chairperson, I can just put it that I also checked the e..., well the list of all the people that died and established that another house, with the same description, although it's not so close to the shops, it's not far from the shops, and that is Sinque 194, there two males died and one female, and that will also fit in with the evidence this witness gave at a previous occasion.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what re-examination is designed for.

MR STRYDOM: I take the point, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Sorry, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We're waiting for his comment.

MR BERGER: No, I'll just - I'll put the question again, because there's been a delay.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: The house that my learned friend refers to, Mr Mbatha, is five blocks away from the shops, the house I'm referring to is over the road from the shops, and that was the only house in the vicinity of the shops where people were stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, a vicinity is a relative concept, you know, is a relative concept, I think the question that you put was a fair question, just repeat the question.

MR BERGER: So the question I'm putting to you, Mr Mbatha, is that at that house in the vicinity of the shop five people were stabbed, and one of the people who were stabbed, and this is common cause, paragraph 6.6 of our memorandum, page 8 of the actual memorandum, was a 15 year old girl, who was stabbed with an assegai in the chest and the assegai went right through her. Now I'm putting it to you that on your description, that is the house you went into, and I'm putting it to you that there wasn't one person in that house who was stabbed, but five?

MR MBATHA: I would not know really, but I thought there was only one person and the male that I referred to, maybe the houses are confusing me, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, I think what's crucial that counsel is putting to you is not so much the houses, but what happened inside the house. Do you understand what I'm saying? The one thing that's important, as counsel points out is not which house you went into and what number the house bears, but one important thing that he puts to you is what happened in that house. Do you understand the difference?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us that you stabbed a woman and a man at a particular house, right?

MR MBATHA: No, I did not say I killed the male.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, that's the man who came out of, who had been concealing himself either in or outside of the Peugeot, who tried to jump the fence and you stabbed him and he ran away, as I understand it.

MR MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, what counsel is putting to you is that at the house that you're talking about, three males were stabbed and two females. The essence of what he's saying is this, you're not telling us the truth, you're under-playing what you did, you didn't only stab one woman who had just come out of the window, who tried to come out through the window, but you stabbed three males and two females, do you understand that?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that? Mr Berger, is that what you want to put to this person?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it's either that, or there were other people with Mr Mbatha who stabbed the others in the house... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: ...but the essence is that to say that only one person was stabbed in that house, that is false.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the qualification that he's just added?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let's get the answer.

MR MBATHA: I will not deny that, because there were many of us, there could have been others who went into the house and found other people.

MR BERGER: No, you see you would know if there were others in the house, because you were looking for comrades, you say, and after you killed that girl, you continued to search the house, because you've told the committee that you then went and opened the wardrobe, remember?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And it wasn't a big house, and you would easily have seen if there was a woman aged 39 in the house, a young boy aged 15, a small boy aged 7, a young man aged 19, you would have seen them in that small house if they were there, if they had been stabbed before or if they were hiding, because you searched that house, didn't you?

MR MBATHA: The house was not small, it had rooms, I went to the wardrobe to search because I was suspicious, there were other rooms and some of my co-applicants came out of some of these rooms.

MR BERGER: And if anyone had been stabbed in the other rooms, you would have heard that, you would have heard people screaming in the house, Mr Mbatha. You left that house because you were satisfied that there was no-one else in the house, isn't that what you've told the committee?

MR MBATHA: I did not say that had there been any other person in another room I would have heard screams, I didn't say that.

MR BERGER: No, I'm putting it to you, you would have heard it if there was screaming?

MR MBATHA: I would not say I would have heard such screams, because the one person that I stabbed was such that he didn't get a chance to scream.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbatha, I'm just going to leave this point by putting it to you that you know more about what happened in this house and you are not telling?

MR MBATHA: I do not dispute, I am saying I did not see anything else.

MR BERGER: Who else was with you in this house?

MR MBATHA: I would not know, there was a commotion.

MR BERGER: You can't name a single person who was with you?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Now, you knew that this young woman was not a comrade, because you asked her, "Where are the comrades?", am I right?

MR MBATHA: I knew that she was toeing the line of her comrades.

MR BERGER: She was 15 years old.

MR MBATHA: I don't know her, I estimated her to be my age. I am not 15 years old, I am 35 years old.

MR BERGER: You knew she was not a member of the self defence units, correct?

MR MBATHA: No, I did not know that, I just knew her to be a member of the SDU.

MR BERGER: Oh, really, then why did you tell the committee yesterday that you stabbed her because you were frustrated and infuriated that you could not find the people that you were searching for?

MR MBATHA: I was ventilating on her.

CHAIRPERSON: You were taking your anger at her? That's exactly what counsel is putting to you, that you told us yesterday that you stabbed her because you were frustrated at not getting the people that you were looking for?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Suggesting that she was not a member of the SDU?

MR MBATHA: She was a member of the SDU, except to say she was a female.

CHAIRPERSON: So is your evidence that, although she was a female, she was still a member of the SDU?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Well, Mr Mbatha, why did you say that you stabbed her because you were infuriated and frustrated that you could not find the people that you were looking for, if she was one of the people that you were looking for? It doesn't make sense?

MR MBATHA: Yes, she was one of the people I was looking for, but then I had priorities, I had other people who came as first priority.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, just help us understand what you're saying. Yesterday you suggested in your evidence that she was not one of the persons that you were looking for, but you stabbed her because you were infuriated. Today you are telling us that she was a member of the SDU, and we know that, from your evidence, you were looking for members of the SDU. Do you understand that?

MR MBATHA: May I please ask, what is this SDU, is it the same thing as the defence, really I don't know?

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps we use the term that you didn't use, I think you used the defence yesterday. You see all the evidence we've been hearing here is to the effect that people, the hostel dwellers were looking for the SDU's, because they were primarily responsible for killing IFP members and hostel dwellers, that's what we've been told, so we assumed that when you referred to defences, you're also referring to SDU's, but perhaps you should tell us what is it, what is it that you understand by defences?

MR MBATHA: I really cannot differentiate.

CHAIRPERSON: When you set out to look for defences, who were you actually looking for?

MR MBATHA: I was looking for the people who were patrolling the streets, killing people. These are the people whom I heard of as being SDU's, or defence should I say.

CHAIRPERSON: That is also what we understood from those applicants who referred to these people as SDU's. Do you understand that?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we come back then to the question, yesterday you told us, that's what counsel's putting to you, that you stabbed the woman because you were frustrated at not getting the people that you were looking for. Do you remember telling us that yesterday?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What you're telling us today is that she was also a member of the defence.

MR MBATHA: I would explain this as follows: when I got to her, it's not that I didn't know, I knew that she too was a member, she too was toeing the same line as the others, except that she was not first in the list of priority.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, I think the record speaks for itself.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, chairperson, my learned colleague who took notes of the evidence in chief, I couldn't take notes myself, but - points out that he said that was asked to her was, "Where are the other defences or comrades?", the other, the word "other" appears on the note. I haven't got a recollection as to that detail myself, but that's been pointed out to me.

MR BERGER: Well the record will clear this up.

CHAIRPERSON: It is my recollection that's what was asked of the woman.

MR BERGER: Is it your evidence today that this girl was amongst the people that you were looking for?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: What is your reason today for having killed her?

MR MBATHA: The reason is the same, that I was frustrated after failing to get the people that I was looking for, she did not even give me the information I was looking for.

MR BERGER: If she had said to you, "They are in the house next door", would you have killed her?

MR MBATHA: I would take her there, I would take her along to show me.

MR BERGER: She says they're next door, would you have killed her?

MR MBATHA: I would have wanted to go and see them, I would bring her along.

MR BERGER: You're going to take her along to a house where there are these dangerous people who could kill you, you wouldn't kill her first?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: And you were acting on your own at that stage?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: So there were other of your comrades standing around as you asked this girl where the others were?

MR MBATHA: Yes, they were present, even though I cannot recall what their names are, because some of them came in and went to other rooms.

MR BERGER: And if you had taken her next door and found that the defence were there, would you have killed her?

MR MBATHA: I would have killed her there.

MR BERGER: But then you wouldn't have been frustrated and infuriated, because then you would have found the people that you were looking for, so why would you have killed her? What's the translation, sorry?

MR MBATHA: She is toeing the same line.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying it's because she associated herself with the defences?

MR MBATHA: Yes. She is equal to the defences.

MR BERGER: It's because she supported the defences, even if she wasn't a member of the defences, is that right?

MR MBATHA: I don't think that one can support an idea that one is against.

MR BERGER: No, one definitely can't, but she supported the defences, whether she was an actual member or not, when you say she toed the line, you're saying she was a supporter of the defences and that justified killing her?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And as far as you were concerned, and all the residents of Kwamadala, all the people in Boipatong supported the defences and toed the line, am I right?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: So therefore all the people in Boipatong, whether members of the defences or not, were targets for attack, correct?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I would say that, but concerning children and old women, the aged, I don't think so, because they could not control their children. I, for one, wanted people from around 45 years of age downwards, the same applies to females. I did not care about the aged and children.

MR BERGER: So are you saying not all people in Boipatong were legitimate targets for attack?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And a seven year old boy was not a legitimate target for attack?

MR MBATHA: He is still too young. It's better to attack a person from ten years of age upwards, because those people are grown-ups.

MR BERGER: Now, when you opened the wardrobe, was it in the same house and you found the two males, was that in the same house that you stabbed this young girl?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, you're referring to a young girl. His evidence is not that he stabbed a young girl. According to his evidence, the person that he stabbed was about his age.

MR BERGER: I will rephrase it then. I'll refer to her as a female. The two males that you found in the wardrobe, was that in the same house as the female that you had stabbed?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: How big was this wardrobe?

MR MBATHA: It was big enough.

MR BERGER: Was it a standard, two door wardrobe?

MR MBATHA: I did not notice that, I found both of them inside.

MR BERGER: It was a wardrobe that stands against the wall, it's not part of a wall?

MR MBATHA: I'm not sure whether it was a built-in wardrobe, but it didn't fall.

MR BERGER: And these two males were how old?

MR MBATHA: When I looked at them, I think they were older than myself.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, did you in fact look at them when they fell out of the wardrobe?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I opened the wardrobe because I wanted them to be shot at.

ADV SIGODI: In other words they were shot at whilst the wardrobe was open?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I had already opened the wardrobe, they fell thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, we will take the tea adjournment at 11 o'clock.

MR BERGER: You've just told the committee that you opened the doors, you saw the two men hiding in the wardrobe, you could see that they were approximately your age, and Themba Mabota then shot and killed them.

MR STRYDOM: No, he said they were older than himself, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: I apologise. You could see that they were older than you, the doors were open and Themba Mabota then shot and killed them, is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Yesterday you told the committee that you could not open the doors, Themba Mabota shot at them and you could see only their heads as they collapsed out of the wardrobe. Which version is the truth?

MR MBATHA: The wardrobe was open and they fell and I could see their heads out of the wardrobe.

MR BERGER: You told the committee yesterday that you could not open the doors?

MR MBATHA: How were their heads exposed if the wardrobe was not open?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I've been referred to a note by my learned colleague again, and I can just read from that. Again, I don't have a recollection, because I didn't take a note:-

"I opened the wardrobe and found two males inside. I called Themba Mabota. They died, we saw these heads outside the wardrobe hanging."

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood his evidence, it was that he opened the wardrobe, found these two men, and then the wardrobe couldn't be opened, and then Themba Mabota shot at them. Perhaps Mr Berger you would want to clarify whether when he opened the wardrobe, did they pull it back, so as to be shot once the wardrobe was closed, because it just seems to me not to make sense that he would see that there were two people inside without first opening the wardrobe, unless it had a glass (indistinct).

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'll just clarify it briefly and then we can take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR BERGER: When Themba Mabota shot at the two males in the wardrobe, were the doors to the wardrobe open or closed?

MR MBATHA: The door was already open and it was easy for one to shoot or to see a person inside.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you use the word "silbulga"?

MR MBATHA: Yes we were struggling with the door.

ADV SIGODI: In other words are you saying that the occupants inside the wardrobe were trying - were holding the door so that you would not be able to open the door?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Was it wide open or was it just open enough so that you could see the occupants inside the wardrobe?

MR MBATHA: It was opened in such a way that you could see that there were people inside, but they did not want us to open the door, the door was opened widely after they were shot at.

MR BERGER: So when they were shot, the doors of the wardrobe were closed?

MR MBATHA: They were not completely - the doors of the wardrobe were not completely open, we overpowered them as they were holding the door and as we were also trying to open the door, but the door was not completely closed and it was not completely open. The door was shot at, the door opened thereafter because no-one was holding the door.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps this would be an appropriate time to take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. We'll take a tea adjournment now, we will return at 11:30.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR TEA

ON RESUMPTION:

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER CONTINUES: Mr Mbatha, for the record, I just want to tell you that I was approached by Mrs Phale, P H A L E, during the adjournment and the young girl, aged 15, who died at 625 Bapele Street, the house over the road from the shops, was her daughter, and her name was not Ronica Msebe, as it is in the annexure, her name was Ronica Phale, and she was visiting the Msebes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the page again?

MR BERGER: It's page 11 of the annexure, chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right.

MR BERGER: She was visiting the Msebes on the night of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

MR BERGER: Her name is Ronica Phale.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

MR BERGER: P H A L E.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR BERGER: Not Ronica Msebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thanks.

MR BERGER: But she was 15 and she was stabbed right through her body. The other person that you stabbed - I'm sorry, before I get to that person - when I asked you earlier whether you could name anyone who was with you in the house where you stabbed the female, you said you couldn't, but you say that the house in which you shot, or in which the two males were shot, the two males who were trying to hide in the wardrobe, that was in the same house and Themba Mabota was in that house when you called him, is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Then you went to another house, and that was where you saw a person trying to escape, that's the person who tried to hide himself around the Peugeot?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And can you indicate where that house was?

MR MBATHA: As I have indicated that I cannot point out, I was just walking, I'm not quite familiar with the area.

MR BERGER: And who were you walking with?

MR MBATHA: It was Themba and the other people, I don't know them quite well.

MR BERGER: The only two people that you saw shooting were Damara Quonquo and Themba Mabota, is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Where did you see Damara shooting?

MR MBATHA: I saw him shooting last shooting at the defence.

MR BERGER: And you never saw anyone else shooting?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: You say that the lighting in Boipatong was bad, it was dark?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was there not a full moon that night?

MR MBATHA: I do not know, but it was dark.

MR BERGER: Are there not Apollo lights in Boipatong?

MR MBATHA: It was not lit, it was dark.

MR LAX: Mr Berger, just to help us, those Apollo lights, are those those big mast lights that one sees in townships?

MR BERGER: (No audible reply). After you had tried to kill the man near the Peugeot, you continued searching houses, is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And the only other house that you found people in was the house where Themba Mabota shot the male and the female under the bed?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And how old were they?

MR MBATHA: I don't know.

MR BERGER: Why is there no mention of them in your statement, at page 210(I)?

MR MBATHA: I wouldn't know, maybe I was not asked about them, we may, we could not have continued, or should I say it's possible we didn't continue with the questioning.

MR BERGER: Then did you go into Slovo Park?

MR MBATHA: I don't know whether I did get there or not.

MR BERGER: Why do you say in your statement:-

"I was not in Slovo Park",

if you don't know?

MR MBATHA: I said I don't know whether I did get to Slovo Park or not. I was just walking, I do not know the place, I think it was in the middle, we were in the middle of the township, so I could not make out my way.

MR BERGER: Did you follow Themba Mabota wherever he was going?

MR MBATHA: We parted ways. We were destroying, we did not stick together all the way through.

MR BERGER: Did you see people looting?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I did see some people in possession of items on our way out.

MR BERGER: Did it surprise you to see them carrying these items?

MR MBATHA: Yes, it did.

MR BERGER: Did you ask them, "Why are you carrying these things?"

MR MBATHA: No, I did not, I did not even have that chance.

MR BERGER: Afterwards, back at the hostel, did you ask anyone why they had stolen stuff from Boipatong?

MR MBATHA: When we arrived, we did not have a chance to talk, we rushed into our homes to sleep.

MR BERGER: Why?

MR MBATHA: We knew that we had destroyed, so that even if there are suspicions, we should be asleep.

MR BERGER: Did you enter the hostel through the main gate?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Together with everyone else?

MR MBATHA: I would not know whether some people were left behind, but as far as I know, I think we all went in through the same gate.

MR BERGER: Damara went through the same gate with you, didn't he?

MR MBATHA: I would say so, even though we could not see each other at the time.

MR BERGER: And what did you do with your spear, your assegai?

MR MBATHA: I came back from work the following day and discovered that the police had confiscated all the spears.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think counsel wants to find out, when you returned to the hostel after the attack, what did you do with your spear? Is that what - yes, or... (intervention).

MR MBATHA: I kept it in my room as usual.

MR BERGER: The next morning, what time did you wake up?

MR MBATHA: I left quite early, because I had to be at work at six o'clock.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, when you got home to your room, did you wash your spear, did you wash it?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who did you share a room with in the hostel?

MR MBATHA: I was staying with Buthe and others, my brother and others.

MR BERGER: Who were the others?

MR MBATHA: They were others, whose name I don't know, it could be Tulu.

MR BERGER: Is that the only name you can remember?

MR MBATHA: Yes, there were two of them, Tulus.

MR BERGER: How many people were there in your room?

MR MBATHA: We could have been five.

MR BERGER: And you all went on the attack?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Who stayed behind?

MR MBATHA: My brother, he had gone to work.

MR BERGER: The others went on the attack?

MR MBATHA: Yes they did.

MR BERGER: The next morning, what time did you leave the hostel?

MR MBATHA: I used to leave at five o'clock or round about ten to five.

MR BERGER: And you had no difficulty leaving the hostel?

MR MBATHA: No, I didn't have a problem.

MR BERGER: There was no police presence, no military presence, no Iscor security, around the hostel?

MR MBATHA: No, I did not see any one of them.

MR BERGER: What time did you return from work?

MR MBATHA: It was in the evening, quite late, it was quite late, because there was no longer public transport to Terela.

MR BERGER: So it would have been in the evening that you returned back to the hostel on Thursday?

MR MBATHA: Yes, it was not quite late, but I think it was headed for nine o'clock in the evening.

MR BERGER: And then you went back to your room and you went to sleep?

MR MBATHA: Yes, but then when I arrived, there was a police contingent.

MR BERGER: On the Friday, did you go back to work?

MR MBATHA: No, I could not

MR BERGER: Why not?

MR MBATHA: They didn't allow us to leave the hostel.

MR BERGER: That was on the Friday?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And when you say "they", are you referring to the police and the army?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And Iscor security?

MR MBATHA: I don't know whether they were present.

MR BERGER: And when did you attend a meeting which was addressed by Themba Khosa, did you attend a meeting addressed by Themba Khosa?

MR MBATHA: The one meeting that I know, even though I cannot recall the date, that was the day on which the police did not allow us out of the hostel, that was the meeting, that is when - that was the day when he came along with the police, that's the meeting that I can remember.

CHAIRPERSON: But would that have been the first day during which you couldn't go to work because the police wouldn't allow you to leave the hostel?

MR MBATHA: Yes. The meeting was held, I'm not sure quite when, it could have been Friday or Saturday, I'm not quite sure.

MR BERGER: And that was the meeting where, in the presence of the police, Themba Khosa said you must help the police?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: But you didn't attend the meeting on the Thursday, the one on the 18th, that was addressed by Themba Khosa?

MR MBATHA: No, I was not present.

MR BERGER: And so you wouldn't be able to dispute it if I put it to you that at that meeting on the Thursday, Themba Khosa instructed the hostel residents to burn all the evidence which linked them to the massacre, you can't dispute that, can you?

MR MBATHA: I would not admit, I would not dispute that either, I don't know.

MR BERGER: You don't know who gave the order to burn the goods looted from Boipatong and the evidence which linked you to the attack, am I right?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: You don't know?

MR MBATHA: I don't know.

MR BERGER: You say you don't know Andries Matanzima Masinga?

MR BERGER: No, I don't know him.

MR BERGER: Never heard about him?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Never heard about an ANC spy who infiltrated the hostel with plans to blow it up, never heard about such a person?

MR MBATHA: I only heard about that when I was at home.

MR BERGER: In Kwa-Natal?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And then you came back to the hostel?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And did you ask questions about him?

MR MBATHA: I did not.

MR BERGER: Why not, didn't you want to know if he's still there?

MR MBATHA: I heard that he was allowed to leave.

MR BERGER: To leave or to live?

MR MBATHA: I was told that he was leaved, he left.

MR BERGER: You were told that when you returned to the hostel?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: So you did ask about him?

MR MBATHA: I did not.

MR BERGER: Who told you about him?

MR MBATHA: Dlamini told me that there is one person who came, but he was later released.

MR BERGER: Richard Dlamini?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And did he tell you the name of this person?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Did you ask the name of the person?

MR MBATHA: No, I did not. I only heard about the name here.

MR BERGER: Did you hear that this person had been taken to Ulundi?

MR MBATHA: No, I did not hear about that.

MR BERGER: That he had been paraded before the leadership at Ulundi?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: That he had been brought back to the hostel?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: And that he had been allowed to live in the hostel?

MR MBATHA: I did not hear anything about that, I only heard that he came to the hostel, I know nothing about the Ulundi incident.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Mbatha, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Malindi, do you have any questions?

MR MALINDI: No questions, chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRETORIUS

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Mr Mbatha, do you know the attorney Koos van der Merwe?

MR MBATHA: Van der Merwe?

MR STRYDOM: Do you know an attorney that came to the Khayelitsha Hostel at a certain time?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I think I remember.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember when that was?

MR MBATHA: I do not remember quite well, but I think it could have been 1997 if I'm not mistaken.

MR STRYDOM: You remember a meeting that was held in connection with the possibility of amnesty applications, at the Khayelitsha Hostel?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps my learned friend could lead a little bit less.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't have a problem with this kind of question, because he's re-examining the witness. Yes, go ahead.

MR STRYDOM: On the occasion you saw the attorney at Khayelitsha Hostel, do you remember what was discussed?

MR MBATHA: The one who came, the one that I know, came to inform us that we would require lawyers or attorneys to represent us for our appeal, and that happened later, I was at home.

MR STRYDOM: Did you discuss the possibility of an amnesty application with your co-accused at that stage, co-convicted accused?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: During these discussions, were a decision made in this regard?

MR MBATHA: They said they had discussed, I was the only one who was left out because I was at home.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember at the trial a witness that gave evidence with the name of Richard Msebe?

MR MBATHA: I do not remember very well.

MR STRYDOM: When you were cross-examined, you stated that the house you went into where you stabbed the woman and where Daniel Mabota shot the two people in the wardrobe, there were more people than just yourself and Mabota, is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes, that's right.

MR STRYDOM: In that house, can you estimate, apart from the two of you, how many other attackers there could have been?

MR MBATHA: There were many of them, because they continued breaking windows.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember evidence being led, although you can't remember the person who gave that evidence, that at this house, 625 Bapele Street, he saw at least three attackers?

MR MBATHA: I do not remember.

MR STRYDOM: The house you went into, where you stabbed the woman, were the lights on or was it dark?

MR MBATHA: It was dark.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: Mr Mbatha, will you please look at Exhibit M1, being the aerial photograph of Boipatong and its vicinity. I see you've got the photograph in front of you. If you look on the left-hand side, above the letter D, there's a road that runs across the photograph to above the letter M on the right-hand side, do you see that road?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: That is Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, the road that separates Boipatong from the Kwamadala Hostel.

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: You'll see on that road there's a point marked H, that is where the footbridge is where the group crossed after the attack on the way to Kmadala. Do you agree with that?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now if you look at point C, that's where the Trek Garage is, and you'll see, running in an easterly direction there's a road, that's Nobel Boulevard, it's the area which separates Boipatong and the factories, do you agree with that?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: And then if you look on the top of that photograph, do you see there's a point marked F? If you look on the top of the photograph, do you see a point marked F?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Do you agree that that is where Cape Gate is?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: In fact, Cape Gate's premises extend from approximately that point right till the end of Nobel Boulevard, would you agree with that?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, can you yourself understand the, on your own, the photograph that's in front of you?

MR MBATHA: My attorney did show this to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well your attorney is, your legal representative, is in fact pointing out certain things on the photograph for you, right?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, continue Mr Da Silva.

MR DA SILVA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now I understand your evidence to be, and you must please correct me if I'm wrong, that immediately after the attack, the group gathered in the veld between Boipatong and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, is that correct?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Would you agree that it was more or less in the middle of that veld that the group gathered?

MR MBATHA: Yes, it was just opposite the footbridge.

MR DA SILVA: Would you agree, you say opposite the footbridge, would you say that the majority of the group was to the north of the footbridge, in other words towards the Trek Garage, or do you say that the group all congregated directly opposite the footbridge?

MR MBATHA: That's where we had gathered, near the bridge.

MR DA SILVA: Right. And I understand your evidence to be that Mr Damara Quonquo was close to you, is that right, at that stage?

MR MBATHA: Yes, even though he was not very close, but I could see him.

MR DA SILVA: I haven't received a translation, Mr Chairman, but I assume the witness assented to that, he agreed with the proposition?

MR LAX: His answer was, even though he was not very close, but I could see him.

MR DA SILVA: Thank you, Mr Lax, I didn't receive a translation. And you say Damara fired in the direction of the military vehicle with an AK47?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Was this AK47 set on automatic or was it single shots?

MR MBATHA: No, as far as I know it was raised to fire a single shot.

MR DA SILVA: Did Damara fire more than one shot?

MR MBATHA: I think he fired twice, if I'm not mistaken.

MR DA SILVA: Now you also testified under cross-examination that the soldiers moved past Cape Gate, that was your testimony, in an answer to Mr Berger's question?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: At what stage did you see the soldiers move past Cape Gate?

MR MBATHA: They drove past Cape Gate after the shot was fired. They wanted to stop before reaching Cape Gate, but then they continued driving past Cape Gate.

MR DA SILVA: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I think my receiver's defective, I'm not receiving an answer at all.

MR LAX: If you pick it up, Mr Da Silva, if you pick it up like that, then it will be in line with the transmitter, which is this little box just behind the TV.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Lax, while you're speaking, I'm not receiving anything at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you swop these, get, you know, another that's... (intervention).

MR DA SILVA: I've changed transmitters, Mr Chairman. Mr Mbatha, the question was, when you saw this vehicle moving past Cape Gate, where were you at that stage?

MR MBATHA: By that time we were approaching, just about to cross the road. The cars, or the vehicle, was just about to turn at the robots, not yet, it had not yet arrived at Cape Gate.

MR DA SILVA: What I'm trying to establish is, you said that you saw the motor vehicle, or the military vehicle, move past Cape Gate, I want to know where were you at that stage when you saw the vehicle going past Cape Gate?

MR MBATHA: I am saying I saw it approaching Cape Gate during which time the shots had already been fired and we swiftly crossed the road to avoid being arrested in case the police come back.

MR DA SILVA: So are you saying that you had not crossed the road when the vehicle was in the direction, going in the direction of Cape Gate?

MR MBATHA: Yes, we were just about to cross the road when this vehicle approached Cape Gate and we could see it just about to disappear.

MR DA SILVA: You see, would you agree with me that this is a very flat area? The point that I'm trying to make is that if one stands on the bridge, at the footbridge, you can't see Cape Gate, because Boipatong is in the way?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: And I understand your evidence now to be that the vehicle was going in the direction of Cape Gate, you did not in fact see it go past Cape Gate, is that your evidence?

MR MBATHA: I did not see it go past Cape Gate, but I noticed that it was just about to move past Cape Gate.

MR DA SILVA: Now when you saw the vehicle and you made the assumption it was going in the direction of Cape Gate, was the vehicle still at the Trek Garage?

MR MBATHA: It had already gone past the garage or the filling station.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should just put to this witness, what your instructions are, because we seem to be going in some details, we have no idea what is it that you are disputing from his testimony.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I will put my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just put it to him and let's hear what he has to say.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mbatha, you also testified that you saw this vehicle move from the left to the right in front of you. At the stage that you saw it, were you still on the eastern side of the road, or had you crossed the road, when you're describing this?

MR MBATHA: Would you please repeat the question?

MR DA SILVA: You testified, under cross-examination that you saw the military vehicle moving in front of you, from left to right, in other words, if you look at the letter M, the vehicle was driving in the direction of the Trek Garage to Sebokeng, that was your evidence, you saw it from left to right. I want to know where you were when you saw this vehicle moving from left to right?

MR MBATHA: We were already outside Boipatong, just about to reach the footbridge.

MR DA SILVA: So you were still in the veld, in the open veld, when you saw the vehicle?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Would you agree with me that the vehicle that you saw did not move beyond the footbridge in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, in other words it didn't go further than the footbridge?

MR MBATHA: It drove past, it came from the direction of Vanderbijlpark, headed towards Sebokeng, and it turned at the garage, that is the Trek filling station.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mbatha, my instructions are that the vehicle did not come from Vanderbijlpark. Do you have any comment?

MR MBATHA: I don't know where I should say it came from then.

MR DA SILVA: My instructions are further that the first time the commander of that vehicle saw the group, it was in the vicinity of the robots near the Trek garage. Do you have any comment?

MR MBATHA: I would not dispute that, because the vehicle was just in front of the garage, with their headlights on facing towards the east gate direction. It was shot at when we were just closer to the garage and it proceeded on.

MR DA SILVA: The vehicle moved slowly down Frikkie Meyer Boulevard in the direction of the footbridge, and stopped approximately 50 to 30 metres away from the group, because they were too scared of approaching the group and they were scared they might be attacked by the group. Do you have any comment about that?

MR MBATHA: I don't know anything about that.

MR DA SILVA: The vehicle then turned around and moved back to the vicinity of the robots and it did not turn right in Nobel Boulevard in the direction of Cape Gate. Do you have comment in that regard?

MR MBATHA: I am telling you my first-hand experience.

CHAIRPERSON: You're telling us what you saw?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: Prior to the Boipatong attack, did you know, whether directly or indirectly, any policeman policing the area or the area of the hostel?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MS TANZER: The question is, did he know any per..., was he aware, did he know of any policeman that were in the Vaal Triangle around the area of the hostel, did he know them by name, either directly or indirectly?

CHAIRPERSON: I still don't understand the question.

MS TANZER: I think the question's quite simple, did he know any policemen, whether directly or indirectly, more specifically indirectly, did he know of policemen that were policing the Vaal Triangle prior to the attack?

MR LAX: Are you trying to say did he know any of the policemen that may have been involved in policing the Vaal Triangle area in the vicinity of the hostel before the attack?

MS TANZER: Yes, that is my question.

MR MBATHA: I knew no police who were policing the vicinity of the hostel.

MS TANZER: Now when you said on the day after the attack Themba Khosa addressed the residents of the hostel, and he was accompanied by policemen... (intervention).

MR LAX: No, the evidence was that two days after the attack, I understood it, the Friday, not the Thursday.

MS TANZER: I apologise, two days after the attack, and he was accompanied by policemen, had you seen these policemen before?

MR MBATHA: No.

MS TANZER: And it was not the policemen that were identified here a few days ago?

MR MBATHA: No, I haven't seen them before, I just saw them for the very first time here.

MS TANZER: Did these policemen identify from which station they came from, or from where they came?

MR MBATHA: I cannot remember whether they said they were coming from Van der Byl or from Vereeniging, I cannot recall.

MS TANZER: Now last question, you said the next day you left early to work, did you take public transport that morning?

MR MBATHA: I boarded a taxi.

MS TANZER: Did you take a taxi from Terela?

MR MBATHA: No, I did not go there.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV LAX

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV SIGODI

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV SIBANYONI

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mbatha, you may stand down. There is still no sign of Mr Mkhize.

WITNESS STANDS DOWN

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, as far as I know at this moment he hasn't arrived, but apparently he works at the taxi rank at Vereeniging, but that's the only information I have, but he's not here.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 27 JANUARY 1999

NAME: BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA

MATTER: BOIPATONG MASSACRE

DAY: 8

CHAIRPERSON: Call your next witness.

MR STRYDOM: I call Mr Khubeka.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, just before I start, we have the same problem here with the application not being part of the bundle. I've handed to the committee members and all of the parties a copy of his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Would it be convenient to mark this application... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I'll just locate mine first here.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, chairperson, the last number in the bundle is page 223, and I would ask that this application be added after page 223. Just to get clarity, I would suggest that the form 1 starts with page 224.

MR KHUBEKA: Before I can say anything or comment about anything, I would like to request the audience to listen carefully to what I'll be saying here, because what I'm going to say here, I'm a bit scared, because something happened and I know they also experienced some problems, I would like to request you to listen carefully, and the people who reside at the township with me, they've got to listen carefully, more especially the people that are staying with me in the township. What I did was very painful even to me, it also affected me.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to hear the interpreter?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I've got a problem with my ear, I was assaulted and the bombs also affected my hearing sense, my sense of hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Very well, yes, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, chairperson, the suggestion was... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, Mr Khubeka, we've noted your comments, we have noted your opening comments. Yes, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, chairperson, the form 1, first page, 224, 225 and 226, the annexure to form 1, page 227 and 228, the affidavit 229, 230 and 231, and then the statement concerning gross violations of human rights starts with page 232, and according to how I marked it, the pages will go up to page 252.

MR LAX: Mine goes to 248.

CHAIRPERSON: I think there's got to be a problem somewhere, because mine goes to 248.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, it reminds me, chairperson, that the person I asked to make the photostats said that some pages that were just blank pages, were not photostatted, because of the volume of that, so maybe if I can just run through the relevant pages with some relevant detail on them. It's page 232, the first page, 233 the page that starts with "Truth and Reconciliation", 234 declaration, 235 details of person making statement, 236 is a statement, 237 is a continuation of the statement, 238 a political context, and I'm not sure, the next page there's no notes on the page, maybe that one was not photostatted, the one I have has got "killing" on the right-hand side... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it will be page 8... (intervention).

MR STRYDOM: ...so that's 239.

CHAIRPERSON: It is page 8, it follows on.

MR STRYDOM: Ja. And 240, according to me, starts with the sentence, "What organisation do you think they belong to or support?", 241 is the page with the serious injury or severe ill-treatment page, and 242, handwritten on the right corner, "They were COSAS(?) of ANC", 243 starts with "torture" on the right-hand... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I don't have that.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, there's nothing... (intervention).

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, looking at the bottom of each page, you'll see there are page numbers, now we're missing pages 12 to 15, we go from 11 to 16, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, these pages, I have them available, there's no relevant information on them, I will ask them to be deleted, so I'll change my numbering to go from 242 and then continue 243 on page 16 of the document. Thank you, chairperson, so the last page will be 248, I think then everybody's got the same record.

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Mr Khubeka, the first document I want to show to you is form 1, and I want you to identify your signature on the last page, that is page 226, is that your signature?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you to paragraph 9.4 on page 225. What is stated here is the following:-

"I was part of a group of plus-minus 200 residents of Kwamadala Hostel who attacked the Boipatong township on the night of the 17th of June 1992."

Is that a correct statement?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM:

"I was armed with an assegai."

Is that correct?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM:

"I was in a group with Damara Quonquo."

Is that still correct?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM:

"I didn't kill anybody, but I threw a burning tyre into one of their houses. I never entered houses."

Is that statement a correct one?

MR KHUBEKA: No, that is not true.

MR STRYDOM: So can you give evidence in this regard, what do you want to say, did you enter houses, did you kill people?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I went into a certain house, the second house, it's where I inserted the burning tyre.

MR STRYDOM: Did you kill anybody in the township?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes. I am not sure whether the person died or not.

MR STRYDOM: Did you use your assegai to stab the person?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I used my assegai.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember the evidence given by Richard Dlamini that you stabbed a child in his presence at a certain house?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I agree with that evidence.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any explanation why you gave the wrong information initially when this form 1 was completed?

MR KHUBEKA: What made me not to tell the truth there, I was afraid to tell the truth about the bad things that I did, as you have already mentioned that I killed a child. Yes, I know very well that I did kill a child, I stabbed the child, but I was scared to tell that in public, to tell the people that I stabbed that child, that is why I mentioned that I'm scared because I might get some threats in the township, I might be attacked because I killed that child.

MR STRYDOM: Now just to get it clear, according to you how many houses did you enter?

MR KHUBEKA: Two houses. The one where I found Mr Richard talking to this child and I stabbed the child and we ran out of the house. On our way there was this corner house, there was fire but it was not a big - the flame was not so big, I saw a fire, I saw a tyre... (intervention).

ADV SIGODI: Could you speak a bit slowly, because we've got interpretations, so if you speak very fast, we can't get all the interpretation.

MR KHUBEKA: Thank you. I took this tyre and threw it inside this house, in the kitchen.

MR STRYDOM: In paragraph 10(A) of form 1 on page 225, you stated:-

"I agree that the reasons, as stated in the annexure hereto, state the political objectives sought to be achieved."

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now this annexure, do you understand the contents of this document?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I do understand that.

MR STRYDOM: Was it properly translated to you?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, it was properly translated to me and I understood.

MR STRYDOM: Do you agree with the contents thereof?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you identify your signature on your affidavit on page 231?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is my signature, I can identify it with my initials, S K.

MR STRYDOM: And this statement was made quite recently, on the 18th day of January this year?

MR KHUBEKA: Although I cannot remember the date, I agree, because I can identify my signature.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the statement, what page?

MR KHUBEKA: It starts on page 229 and it goes up to page 231.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Is the date there at page 231 January 1999?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, that's 1999. Now similarly, in this document you have stated that you killed no person.

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I said so and I'm saying that was a lie.

MR STRYDOM: And again why did you, on the 18th of January, stated that you'd killed no person?

MR KHUBEKA: I said I was scared that some people might react towards this if I ever mentioned that I killed a child.

MR STRYDOM: Are you still scared?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give an explanation why you are now prepared to say that you killed a child, whilst on the 18th you were not prepared to say so?

MR KHUBEKA: Will you please repeat your question, sir?

MR STRYDOM: You said that on the 18th when you made the statement, you were scared to admit that you've killed a child. Today you are prepared to admit it. Now the question is, what changed your mind?

MR KHUBEKA: What made me to change my mind, it is according to the way that Mr Dlamini mentioned that, because it looked like he saw me when I was doing this, though I wanted to make it a point no-one saw, I admitted because Mr Dlamini mentioned that I did that, though I was not, it was not my intention to be seen doing that.

MR STRYDOM: Now, I'm going to read your affidavit in the light of the changed instruc..., or the difference in what you're saying now and what's contained, so you can tell us which portions of this affidavit you still stand by and which portions you deny and say it's wrong. In your affidavit you said that:-

"During 1992, I was staying at Kwamadala Hostel",

and can I just ask you, I'm going to continue and then if you say you don't agree with something, just stop me and say you don't agree with that statement, I don't have to ask you all the time.

"Earlier I stayed with my mother at 175 Zone 8, Sebokeng. During 1990 my mother's house were burnt by the comrades. She was a member of the IFP. We had to flee out of Sebokeng and both went to Kwamadala Hostel. Before I went there, I was already a member of the IFP. At the time when I went to Kwamadala Hostel, I was only 15 years old. In the hostel, I..."

... (intervention).

MR KHUBEKA: In 1990, I was not 15 years old. If I can remember well, I think I was about, I was 13 or 14 years old, 13 or 14 years.

MR STRYDOM: Just to clear that point, your date of birth, is that the 16th of April 1976?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM:

"In the hostel, I further became aware of the problems between the ANC and the IFP. The problems escalated. I couldn't attend school anymore, I couldn't move freely (see also my statement regarding gross human violations annexed hereto, marked X). Approximately a week before the attack on Boipatong, I was at a meeting which was addressed by Mr Mkhize. During this meeting I heard of the possibility of an attack. On the 17th of June 1992, we all were called to the stadium. I took my assegai and went along to Boipatong to attack the people. I was scared, but went nevertheless. I killed nobody, nor injured anybody."

MR KHUBEKA: That is a lie, the fact that I did not kill a person there, that is a lie.

MR STRYDOM: Do you stand by the evidence you gave earlier on during your testimony today about the person you killed?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, as Mr Dlamini had indicated, I am not saying that because I heard him saying so, he said something that he saw, he mentioned something that he saw with his own eyes and I know very well that I did that.

MR STRYDOM:

"I threw a burning tyre in one of the houses. I was in Damara Quonquo's group. He had an AK47..."

no, no:-

"He fired shots with an AK47. I don't know if he has hit or did hit anybody. Darkie had a shotgun, or "'n haelgeweer", and he also fired shots. I further saw that people got killed, but didn't see who were responsible for that. I moved through Boipatong and eventually I left with the group. Although I..."

and that must read not "die", "nie":-

"Although I did not kill people in Boipatong, I agreed with the attack and associated me with it. I only heard afterwards about all the people that died and got injured, and I'm very sorry about what happened, especially I'm sorry about the people that died. I ask for forgiveness."

So is it only those portions you've already indicated that you want to change in this affidavit?

MR KHUBEKA: What I wanted to change in this affidavit is the fact that the statement that I did not kill a person and the statement that I did not enter into the houses.

MR STRYDOM: In the statement you make reference that you saw other people, how they got killed, can you give us more particulars about that?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I saw people dying, I saw dead people there. The person that I can remember very well that I went past his or her body on the way, I suspect that he was shot at by Damara because I heard the gunshot and it rang like an automatic firearm. After that, we proceeded, I saw a person lying down on the ground and I could see that this person was dead.

MR STRYDOM: Can you indicate, at the beginning stages of the attack or later on, or what can you say about that?

MR KHUBEKA: As we were entering the Boipatong, that happened, the very first person to fire was Damara, his firearm was the first one to shoot. That's what I can say.

MR STRYDOM: Now, when you went into the houses and stabbed the child, was that towards the end of the attack or the beginning stages?

MR KHUBEKA: It was on - that happened on our way out, because I was afraid, I was very scared to get into the house, because we moved around the township and we met next to the squatter camp or shacks, I heard someone shouting, "Let's go, let's go, it's late now", because the people thought that the police would come and find us there. We left the place. I went back. On my way back, I was very angry. At the same time, I did not want the people to see me doing something. I told myself that I wanted to do this alone, without anyone seeing me. Unfortunately Richard Dlamini saw me, as he has mentioned here that he saw me stabbing the child.

MR STRYDOM: Now... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, (indistinct). If, as I understand your evidence, you wanted to hide what you did?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And at the time you thought that no-one saw you?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I thought no-one saw me, because even the house that I went into, the door was open, it was right inside, I went inside and my intention to get into the house was to loot something, because I saw people looting, I went there to take something for myself and leave the place, but I saw this child that was lying in the house, sleeping in the house, and Dlamini wanted to take cover behind this child, but I saw that he was wasting time, because my brother also died there. We ran away thereafter with Dlamini. I think he thought that I was - I wanted to stab him, because I came behind this child.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, but - and because you thought that someone didn't see you, that is why, in your application and in your affidavit, to which you have deposed very recently, you didn't reveal the fact that you had killed someone?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that Dlamini has told us that he saw you stabbing the child, you then decided to tell us that you did kill a child?

MR KHUBEKA: Truly speaking, if Dlamini did not mention that here, or if that did not appear in his statement, I was going to use the same old statement that I did, I was not going to mention it either. I'm very scared, I'm very much uncomfortable about this matter. That is the whole truth. If Dlamini did not mention this, I was going to use this statement freely, I still emphasise that, because even my age at the time, it shows that I did not know what was happening, therefore I was innocent, but I knew very well that I was not innocent.

CHAIRPERSON: Just speak very slowly, Mr Khubeka, just bear in mind that what you are saying has to be interpreted.

MR KHUBEKA: I apologise for that, it's because of the fact that I'm a bit scared.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So is the position that, had it not been for Mr Dlamini, who told us what you did, you would not have told us what... (intervention).

MR KHUBEKA: I was not going to tell you, that was going to be my secret alone, as the people who killed my brother, that remained their secret. No-one today who came forward and said he did that, he's the one who burnt the house of Khubeka family and my brother was inside, that was going to be my secret, I emphasise that, that was going to be my secret alone.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the fact that when a person is seeking amnesty, he has to tell us the truth?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I heard about that, even my mother, she used to tell me that while she was still alive, and she told me that, "If you go there, my son, go to tell the people about what you know", I just looked at her and I ignored her. She thinks that I can go and tell the people that I killed a child so that the people could look at me as a bad person, I told myself that I'll never do that. Today I came here, but my mother is no more and I have no-one else to rely or to lean on, that is why I decided to come here and tell the truth. If there were something else, if there were something else to prove that a person is telling the truth, I would even use that alternative to prove that I was telling the truth. I am telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: So is the position that you were prepared to let this committee decide your application on the basis of a statement which you knew was not the truth?

MR KHUBEKA: Will you please repeat the question, sir?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to explain this to you in Zulu. (Interpreter interprets from Zulu - Were you prepared to come to this committee to seek amnesty, having done a statement...) no, on the basis of a statement, (...on the basis of a statement knowing very well that what is in the statement is not true?)

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: (And you did all that...)

INTERPRETER: Will you please repeat, sir?

CHAIRPERSON: (You were prepared to do all this, because you said you were too scared?)

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I still maintain that I was prepared to do that, but now Mr Dlamini came here and revealed that, I had no alternative, I have to tell the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: (As we now know that you were prepared to hide the truth until Mr Dlamini came forward and tell us what the truth was, what proof do we have that there is nothing else that you are still holding?)

MR KHUBEKA: The proof that you have, I hope that it's what I'm going to be saying now, because there's nothing else that I'm holding now, there's nothing else in my heart, I'm prepared to tell the truth. I don't have enmity in my heart now, I'm here to tell the truth, I would request you to believe me. I did kill that child. Even the mother is still crying even today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, thank you, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I see it's six past one, if I can get an indication if I must carry on now or after lunch?

CHAIRPERSON: How long is it going to take you to wrap up your evidence in chief?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, it's going to take a little bit longer, because there's this other statement I must also deal with, so I would say it will take another, say, 20 minutes, that's roughly estimated.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Yes. Shall we take an adjournment? What time should we come back?

MR STRYDOM: My suggestion is two o'clock. The service at this restaurant here is very bad, if we order something now, we can only get it marginally before two.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay, we will take the lunch adjournment now and we will come back at two o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION:

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: And may I also remind you that when you give evidence, bear in mind that the interpreters are interpreting what you are saying, so speak slowly so that they can have time to interpret everything you are saying.

MR KHUBEKA: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, thank you.

MR LAX: Just before you proceed, Mr Strydom, with regard to the HLV statement, I'm sure that you've read it to your client previously, I would just like to try and avoid us spending too much...(END OF TAPE 2 - WORDS LOST - TAPE 3 COMMENCES) ...I noticed there are some portions of it that obviously relate to Boipatong. Would it not be possible to just put those aspects to him and let him confirm them and then we can move on without too much ado.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Mr Lax, it was not my intention to go through the whole statement, I just want to - I want him to testify about portions of that statement.

MR LAX: Okay.

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM : (cont)

Mr Khubeka, you testified that Mr Dlamini gave evidence that you'd killed a child and that's why you now admit that you killed a child. Now the question I want to ask you, did you hide anything else, just merely because there was no evidence to implicate you?

MR KHUBEKA: No, not at all, nothing at all.

MR STRYDOM: Would it make a difference to you, Mr Khubeka, if you admit that you killed one or, say, three people, at this stage?

MR KHUBEKA: I do not quite understand the question?

MR STRYDOM: The question is that you gave reasons why you did not earlier said that you killed a child. Now that you've admitted that you killed a person, would it make a difference to you at this stage to admit that you've killed more people if you have done so?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that can make a difference, but I did not kill many people, I only killed one person, a child.

MR STRYDOM: In your evidence you said that the house where you killed the child was situated towards the end of your journey through Boipatong. I want you to have a look at Exhibit J, the map... (intervention).

MR KHUBEKA: I didn't say it was towards the end at Boipatong, I said the house in which I put in a burning tyre is right inside Boipatong towards the end, but I cannot recall the house where I killed the house (sic), but I think it may be the same street. I did not talk about a house at the end of the township where I killed a child.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, okay. Do you understand the map, if you look at now, as it's being shown to you?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I do understand the map.

MR STRYDOM: Now I firstly want to ask you, there where you put the burning tyre into the house, can you indicate on this map the vicinity where that happened, the area?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I can show you.

MR STRYDOM: Just go ahead.

MR KHUBEKA: It is the house here, at the corner.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the house, it's been indicated it's the house right on the corner of Bafakena and Schloebe Street, the number is 734. And there where you killed the child, can you show us where that is, more or less?

MR KHUBEKA: We came from this street when we went up to Slovo Park and as we came through this street, I suspect this house marked X could be the house, I'm referring to the house that is marked X.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the witness refers to a house in Schloebe Street and the number he points out is house 743.

MR KHUBEKA: I am saying I think so.

MR STRYDOM: When you went out of Boipatong, did you see any military vehicles?

MR KHUBEKA: I don't want to commit myself, I did not see any vehicle on our way to and from Boipatong. On our way back, I was in a hurry, I wanted to get to the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: And after you've reached the hostel, did you go to bed or to the stadium, or where to?

MR KHUBEKA: I went straight to my room.

MR STRYDOM: And the next day, were you at the hostel?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did you attend any meetings during the course of that day?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Who addressed the meeting?

MR KHUBEKA: I remember Mr Mthembuta being a speaker at the meeting, that is if I think very well. I remember Mr Mthembu, I think Mr Mthembu was addressing the meeting, that is if I'm correct.

MR STRYDOM: No, but the question is, what did he say, can you remember that?

MR KHUBEKA: He warned us that there were people who were going to attack us.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see that any loot that came from Boipatong was burnt?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I did not see that, but I did see fire in the big dustbins.

MR STRYDOM: When was that when you saw that?

MR KHUBEKA: I think it was on the 18th, yes I think it was on the 18th, I remember very well.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you now to your statement concerning gross violations of human rights. Is it correct that this statement was taken by a person who was employed by the TRC?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct, even though I didn't trust the person.

MR STRYDOM: Now in this statement, on page 236, you set out your background and how it came about that you ended up in the hostel.

MR KHUBEKA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Now what I want you to testify about now is just briefly explain your experiences in relation to political deeds and violence which affected you, leading up to the time you went to the hostel?

MR KHUBEKA: If I still remember very well, it happened this way, I was attending school at Zithuleli HLP School, that is lower primary school, that is where I left after an attempt was made to burn my parents' home. Such attempts were made several times, seeing that my mother was an IFP member. After that, the house was burnt down, during which time my mother was not at home, having gone to a night school. That is the evening during which my younger sister, Nongeba, died as a result of a petrol bomb, and on the third day, if I still remember very well, I went to school in the morning, I had to be at school at seven o'clock in the morning, and I went to Room 2, that is the class that I attended, Bisunjese being my teacher. On that day a group of people came to fetch me, saying that I should be killed because I am a child of an IFP member. I was supposed to be burnt that day, but the principal refused to hand me over to these people, the people wanted the principal to hand me over to them so that I could be killed, and the person responsible for all of this was Sabata Ngwena.

MR STRYDOM: Just to interrupt you, this Sabata Ngwena, was he affiliated to any political party?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Which party?

MR KHUBEKA: The ANC. I think they also used to refer to themselves as COSAS. I was still very young, and I had to leave school and surrender myself to this death. That did not happen because the principal refused to hand me over. He too was supposed to have died because he refused. He took me out through a smaller gate further down the school and he said I should go home, and he said I should run away and go home. He did not explain to me what was happening, because he too understood that I was still a child, I knew nothing. I went out of the school through that small gate, I fled to 2066 Evaton, Donald Road, where my grandparents stay. I stayed there until such time that I was placed to another school, because I could no longer go back to Zone 8, running away from death. Still, I was coming to yet another death, but yes I did struggle, I tried to survive in that area. I attended school at Zone 3 till such time that two of my homes were burnt, that is when I fled and ended up in Kwamadala, having been taken there by my sister, Phome, my sister.

MR STRYDOM: You made reference to a family member who died when the house, your house, parental house was burnt. Just repeat, who died?

MR KHUBEKA: Nongeba, Nongeba. It was a female girl, still very young. It was a female child who was still very young, who was one year, four months old.

MR STRYDOM: When you were moved to Kwamadala Hostel, did your mother move with you?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I did not take her along, I found her at Vereeniging, at an IFP office, that is where we were welcomed by Oupa Nglapo so that we could stay at the office. We went there by train. I too didn't know where we were going.

MR STRYDOM: When you joined, or moved in at the Kwamadala Hostel, did you become a member of the IFP yourself?

MR KHUBEKA: I think I had been a member of IFP long ago, because my mother used to own IFP, or run IFP drama units(?), before the IFP had these five colours on their logos, then they had only three colours, that is when I took full membership of the IFP.

MR STRYDOM: Did you become a member of the Youth Brigade in the hostel?

MR KHUBEKA: I am still a member of the Youth Brigade.

MR STRYDOM: Now I want you also to explain - or let me just ask this about this statement I'm referring to now, you had another look at this statement, do you confirm the contents of this statement?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I confirm the contents.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. Now I want you to testify about your personal motives and objectives why you went to Boipatong on the night of the attack?

MR KHUBEKA: I was motivated to go to Boipatong by my (indistinct), if I still remember very well all the things that I went through. I left home naked, anybody made me a (indistinct), people were making fun of me. I went to Sebokeng, Zone 5, and Evaton Donald Road 2066, and I went to Boipatong following all the things I was thinking about, my family that is. I thought that these people too should lose their houses, because I have lost my family's two houses, my sibling died while asleep, I was trying to restore that which had been taken away. I did these two things as a result of them having done the same to me.

MR STRYDOM: Now you've given evidence that you experienced all these problems in Sebokeng and not in Boipatong. Can you give any particular reason why Boipatong was then attacked and not say Sebokeng or Evaton or one of the other townships?

MR KHUBEKA: There are many people, Inkatha people, who used to die in my presence at Boipatong, people such as Bongali Batha, who died at Boipatong, therefore that was the reason why I went to Boipatong, seeing that the ANC and Inkatha had been at war since long ago and the people of Kwamadala did not have peace, they did not live at peace, that was the reason why I went to Boipatong to do these two things.

MR STRYDOM: Now, you admitted to kill a child, why did you kill a child?

MR KHUBEKA: I had explained already that I was trying to restore that which had been taken away from me, so that this child's mother should cry the same way as my mother did, such as a calf would, such as a cow wood, trying to locate its calf, a calf to come and suckle or suckle.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know Mr Nosenga?

MR KHUBEKA: I don't want to commit myself, I don't know him, I only heard about him.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack and during July of 1992, did you go to Ulundi to the rally, or the annual rally that was held there?

MR KHUBEKA: Unfortunately, I had been arrested. Having been arrested on 30th of June, I was at lay-off.

MR STRYDOM: Just to get it straight, when were you arrested and in connection with what were you arrested?

MR KHUBEKA: I was arrested for the Boipatong incident, nothing else.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but we all know now the attack took place on the 17th of June 1992, can you give an indication how soon thereafter were you arrested?

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, he said he was arrested on the 30th of June.

MR STRYDOM: 30th? I heard 13th, that's why I ... ...(intervention).

MR LAX: Okay.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, sorry. No, no, I won't take it further, I just heard wrongly then. During the course of the attack, did you see any military or police vehicles in Boipatong?

MR KHUBEKA: I don't want to commit myself, I did not see any police vehicle, I explained so earlier. I indicated that on entering and on moving out, or getting out of Boipatong, I didn't see any such a vehicle, I was in a hurry, I wanted to go back to the hostel, and I was also frightened.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: At the time of the Boipatong attack on the 17th of June, was your brother, Themba Khubeka, staying at the hostel?

MR KHUBEKA: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Did your brother participate in the attack of Boipatong on that night?

MR KHUBEKA: I saw him last when we were at the arena.

MS TANZER: Did you speak to your brother after the attack?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I did not speak to him.

MS TANZER: You've been sitting in these proceedings and you've heard Mr Nosenga's versions of the events that led up to the attack on Boipatong and the attack itself. According to Mr Nosenga, your brother was one of those in fact in a Casspir on the night of the attack?

MR KHUBEKA: I could have seen him. Had these vehicles been at the arena, I could have seen him, but I do not remember seeing him getting into a Casspir. He is a criminal, he cannot be associated with the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your brother?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that's my brother.

MS TANZER: Well, I put it to you that insofar as your version differs from that of Mr Nosenga, that you are not being open and honest with this committee and that Mr Nosenga's version is the correct version of what took place that night. What are your comments?

MR KHUBEKA: I am saying I do not agree with what you are saying. You are telling me about Nosenga, I don't know Nosenga, he doesn't know what he is talking about, he shouldn't commit himself to something he doesn't know, he is telling a blue lie. You will hear for yourself when he comes forward to testify, then you should ask him those questions.

MS TANZER: It is correct, however, that the last time you saw your brother was at the stadium and that you did not speak to him after the attack?

MR KHUBEKA: (No audible reply).

MS TANZER: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Mr Khubeka, did you see your brother after the attack?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I did.

MR BERGER: Where?

MR KHUBEKA: I saw him in the house with his Z88, 9mm pistol.

MR BERGER: In the house where?

MR KHUBEKA: I'm talking about his room, the number of which used to be 101.

MR BERGER: His room at the hostel?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, his room at the hostel.

MR BERGER: And when did your brother die?

MR KHUBEKA: I think he died in 1993. I cannot recall the date. I don't want to tell a lie. It could have been easier had I brought along the death certificate.

MR BERGER: And you never discussed the attack with your brother at any stage until his death?

MR KHUBEKA: Had I discussed such matters with him, he would have beaten me up, because he is stubborn, he would say I was still young, what is it that I wanted at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You were implicated in the criminal trial by Mr Bojosi and Mr Moloi, do you remember that?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I remember.

MR BERGER: Their evidence against you, was that the truth?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is the truth.

MR BERGER: According to Mr Bojosi, after the attack you bragged about stabbing a person, is that correct?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I did brag that I stabbed a person, but I did not explain how old the person was. Mr Moloi did say that as well, and I showed him that I used my spear, I showed it to him. He did say that in court.

MR BERGER: So you were very proud the day after the attack, that you had killed a little baby girl, am I right?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct, because I achieved my goal.

MR BERGER: When you gave evidence before lunch, did you refer to Mr Richard Dlamini as an impimpi?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, he is an impimpi because he involved me, or he implicated me. I still maintain that he is an impimpi, because he saw me, had he not pointed that out, I would not have said that he is an impimpi. He is an impimpi because he is exposing me, I was trying to hide myself. I still maintain he is an impimpi. I am not happy about that, because I was trying to hide myself.

MR BERGER: Mr Richard Dlamini shouldn't have been a traitor, he should do what all good comrades do, that is keep his mouth shut, is that right?

MR KHUBEKA: I still maintain he should have shut his mouth. What I am saying is correct, it is the truth. You would not have found out about my having killed a person had he not pointed it out, I would not have revealed anything, because if I keep a secret, I do so fully.

MR BERGER: And you're not an impimpi, are you?

MR KHUBEKA: I am not an impimpi, because I did what I wanted to do and I kept my secret. I am an impimpi now that I have said something about Quonquo.

MR BERGER: No, Quonquo is dead, I'm talking about people who are alive, you are not an impimpi, you would not tell the secrets of your co-applicants who are still alive, am I right?

MR KHUBEKA: I am saying I am an impimpi because the registers of God have all these bad things, even after a person has died. I still maintain that he killed a person, the person who died there, I am quite sure it was Quonquo who killed him, he killed a person, he should be prosecuted in heaven as well.

MR BERGER: I am talking about the people who are living. Is it correct, Mr Khubeka, that you are not the type of person to tell the secrets of the living?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I am the kind of a person who can tell all, tell it all, if you want an explanation as to who did what, I can explain that. I don't have secrets.

MR BERGER: Well, will you tell this committee please about the participation of the police in the attack on Boipatong?

MR KHUBEKA: There were no police at Boipatong at all, the evidence that was led here by Nosenga and others is just nonsense. We could have been in jail, or I should say we should be in jail. There were no police at Boipatong. If the people from Boipatong knew that they were attacked by the people from Kwamadala, the people who were referring to themselves as Sotho, do you think, I want to know if I am telling you lies if I am saying when we went into your houses, we didn't use our real names?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khubeka, you're giving evidence for the benefit of the committee, and we would urge you, if you give your answers, to direct it to us.

MR KHUBEKA: I apologise for that.

CHAIRPERSON: And I have asked you before, and I'm doing it again, when you speak, speak slowly so that the interpreter can have the opportunity to interpret what you are saying.

MR KHUBEKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You've got to understand that not everyone understands the language that you're speaking here. Do you understand that?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that you know that your brother was in a police Casspir in Boipatong?

MR KHUBEKA: That is not true, I still maintain that is not true.

MR BERGER: Please will you tell the committee about the rapes which occurred in Boipatong during the attack?

MR KHUBEKA: I did not get into many houses, I know nothing about the rapes, there's nothing to tell. You failed to question the person who was talking about that, the one who was raping there, you are asking me that, I now nothing about the rapes, I am not a rapist, I'd propose and the girls would say yes to me.

MR BERGER: Who is the rapist that I should have asked the question to and I did not?

MR KHUBEKA: Stikanayo. I told you, didn't I tell you that I'm going to tell everything that is in my chest, that is Stikanayo, though I did not see him raping, I heard so.

MR BERGER: Well, please tell the committee what you heard about Stikanayo raping?

MR KHUBEKA: I heard in court that Stikanayo was involved in rape, that's all.

MR BERGER: Who said that?

MR KHUBEKA: I think it was Mr Moloi.

MR BERGER: And after the attack on Boipatong, did you not hear people bragging about having raped women in Boipatong?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I did not hear that. I heard that in court. Oupa Moloi is the one who mentioned that.

MR BERGER: Was Mr Moloi telling the truth?

MR KHUBEKA: I don't know.

MR BERGER: You say you are not a rapist, is that the truth?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I am not a rapist, I am not a rapist, I go to church, I'm a churchgoer, I'm a churchgoer.

MR BERGER: What do you say about the evidence given at the criminal trial about you and Mr Moloi's daughter?

MR KHUBEKA: What evidence was that?

MR BERGER: That on another occasion you had raped Mr Moloi's daughter.

MR KHUBEKA: Mr Moloi was telling a lie. If my memory serves me well, the person who was responsible in my case was Mr Nduli and Mr Kwanase and Mr Mthembo. I hit his children, Gobe's children, because they were doing that bad things and they were very small, I assaulted them and he got angry, he went to fetch an axe, I told my brother to fight for me because he wanted to hit me, therefore he just decided to tell a lie and said that I am a rapist, and I know very well that my brother was going to hit him so bad, because he was very good in that.

MR BERGER: Was Mr Moloi telling the truth when he said that you and he entered premises in Boipatong and that you were armed with an assegai?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, he is telling the truth if he says I was armed with an assegai.

MR BERGER: And that the two of you entered premises in Boipatong?

MR KHUBEKA: We entered Boipatong, I remember he was next to me and he ran and he disappeared and I didn't know where he went, that was when we were entering Boipatong.

MR BERGER: The question was that you entered premises, not that you entered the township?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I cannot remember, maybe I did that, but I cannot remember, I cannot remember entering with him some premises, because in the house that I was heading for, I went there with an aim to go and get something or loot something. I am saying I cannot remember entering premises with Gobe, Mr Oupa Moloi, in one of the houses at Boipatong. The only houses that I entered, I cannot remember seeing him walking along with me in those houses. I went to that house that was open and there was light inside and I knew that I wanted to get something for myself, I wanted to loot and bring whatever to Kwamadala Hostel to show that I was there, but I couldn't take anything but I decided to make my assegai visible instead.

MR BERGER: You said that your sister died, is that right?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes. Her name was Nongeba.

MR BERGER: Was her name also Petunia?

MR KHUBEKA: No, her name was Nongeba, she was a baby, she was one year, four months old. He was burnt by fire as the people were trying to burn down our house at Zone 8, No 175.

MR BERGER: Where do you mention that, that she was killed, where do you mention that in your statement?

MR KHUBEKA: I did not mention that in my statement.

MR BERGER: Why not, you mentioned everything else?

MR KHUBEKA: I mentioned that initially, that the person who was helping me making this statement, I couldn't trust the person. The person mentioned that he or she was a member of ANC, and even Mr Thabiso(?) mentioned that though I could not, yes, I could not trust him, I could not tell him everything. If he wanted to kidnap me, I couldn't trust him, because I know the people, the ANC members are involved in underground activities, they can do anything.

MR BERGER: So that's the reason you didn't mention the fact that your sister was killed in your human rights violations statement?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is the reason that made me not to mention that, because that would lead me to mention the Boipatong incident where I killed this child, because I could see that this person was leading me to a trap, he wanted me to mention those things.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Berger. When was your home burnt, do you remember the year?

MR KHUBEKA: If my memory serves me well, the first attempt was in 1985, '86, '87, '88 and 1989, and then in 1990 it was completely destroyed, I remember in 1985, the first attempt was in 1985 when my sister, Nongeba, died.

MR BERGER: Who else died in your family before the attack on Boipatong?

MR KHUBEKA: That's my sister, that's my sister only, except Themba Mabota who passed away after this incident.

MR BERGER: Was Themba Mabota related to you?

MR KHUBEKA: He's my brother.

MR BERGER: And is he a different person to Themba Khubeka?

MR KHUBEKA: Themba Khubeka is also Themba Mabota, he was using two surnames. His first surname is Mabota. When my mother got married, at her wedding ceremony, my surname is Khubeka because of the situation. There is a situation like this, I propose a girl and my surname is Khubeka. Let's say I don't tell the girl that my surname is Khubeka, only to find that the girl herself is also Khubeka, and the girl will say yes to my proposal. After some time the girl will tell me that he's got the same surname with me, but I won't reveal that, because I want to go and sleep with this girl. That is what happened in my case.

MR BERGER: Besides Themba Mabota and your sister, Nongeba, there's no other member of your family who was killed?

MR KHUBEKA: No, no-one else was killed in my family.

MR BERGER: You never saw your brother when you were leaving Boipatong?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I did not see him.

MR BERGER: You never saw him firing at the military vehicles?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I never saw him, I don't want to associate myself with that, because I did not see him.

MR BERGER: You never heard about that either?

MR KHUBEKA: I first got this information here, this information about my brother shooting.

MR BERGER: So you went to Boipatong to restore what you had lost? You went to burn down a house and to kill a baby?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct, Mr Berger, because this is what happened to me also, I did not want to do more than what was done to me, I just wanted to show the people of Boipatong that the value of a human being should be respected, all the lives are the same, as you have mentioned that I wanted to kill a person, killing a baby is the same as killing an adult, there's no difference.

MR BERGER: Now, Richard Dlamini made a statement, at page 222, he says, second last paragraph on that page:-

"We went into a house. Themba was with me."

Now that's Themba Mabota:-

"Children were crying there. I asked the child, 'Where are your parents?' Bumbum, Thembiso Khubeka, stabbed the child with a spear."

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I did stab that child with a spear. He is making a mistake for not mentioning the fact that I came after some time while Themba was already inside, he is making a mistake for not mentioning that part. Let me try and rectify that. Yes, he is telling the truth when he says that I killed a child.

MR BERGER: And he's also telling the truth that Themba Mabota was in the house when you killed the child?

MR KHUBEKA: I said he is making a mistake, he did not mention the time, at the time when I went into the house, while Themba Mabota was already out of the house. I found Mr Richard Dlamini in there. Perhaps he used the back door or the front door to exit the house, but if I met with him at the back door, I could have seen him, because I came through the kitchen door.

MR BERGER: Now, you say that the child you killed was at 743 Schloebe Street?

MR KHUBEKA: I am not saying anything about the house number, but I think it was in that vicinity, I think so, maybe that could be the place.

MR BERGER: There were two small girls who were killed in Slovo Park, and at the house, at a house in Schloebe Street, I won't hold you to 743, but at 765 there were two small children killed, as well as a woman. Now the house where you killed the small girl, was there anyone else in that house who had been killed?

MR KHUBEKA: It was not necessary for me to get into more houses, I did not see such a thing, I just saw this child that was talking to Richard, I went straight to that child, because he was facing the opposite direction, I just came through the kitchen door, I saw them standing at the passage and I heard Richard talking to this girl, I went straight to this child with my spear and I proceeded.

CHAIRPERSON: No, Miss Interpreter, he said, "I stabbed the child and went past", is that what you said?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes.

MR BERGER: You did not see anyone else who had been killed in that house?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I did not see anyone.

MR BERGER: And when you threw a burning tyre into the other house, you did that to burn down that house as your house had been burnt down?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, as I have already mentioned that I was doing the same thing that they did to my house. If I could, I could have burnt two houses, but I was too scared to do that. That is why, even today I'm still frightened.

MR BERGER: And if there had been people in that house that you threw the burning tyre into, all the better, because then they could have been killed like your sister was killed?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I want to emphasise on that one, I didn't care, as I was doing that I didn't care, because if you want the bomb to explode, it hits everything, it doesn't choose, it doesn't see the difference, that is what they did to my home, they knew very well that if you throw a bomb, it hits everything. If I had a bomb, I would have thrown the bomb inside the house.

MR BERGER: So the more houses you could have burnt and the more children you could have killed, the better, that was your aim that night?

MR KHUBEKA: That would be better, because I was doing the same thing that they did to me. It was very painful to me to realise that my sister died in my own hands, I did not know what to do, my mother came late in the evening, she cried.

MR BERGER: Would it be correct to say, Mr Khubeka, that your reason for attacking Boipatong, and for killing that small girl... (intervention).

MR KHUBEKA: I don't think that was a girl, the child was a boy. Don't continue, don't say that the child was a girl, he was a boy.

MR BERGER: You're sure about that, it was a boy and not a girl?

MR KHUBEKA: Well I'm not certain, he was wearing a pair of trousers, that's why I'm saying it was a boy.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you repeat, what was he wearing? What did you say?

MR KHUBEKA: He was wearing a trouser, a pair of trousers. If my memory serves me well, it was a corduroy, the pair of trousers was made of a corduroy material.

MR BERGER: Well I'll refer to a small child. The reason, your reason for attacking Boipatong was in revenge for the attack on your family when your sister died?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is true, Mr Berger, that was a revenge that was influenced by politics as they did the same to me, I was doing the same thing as them. I want to emphasise that it was a revenge. I left Kwamadala Hostel willingly, though I was scared, I was frightened. If I came across a person of your stature or size, he could have easily taken the weapon or the spear away from me.

MR BERGER: So you never went out to attack people of my size, in fact you avoided people of my size and you went for the children instead? I'm right?

MR KHUBEKA: Mr Berger, I still maintain, had I come across my peer, it could have been very bad, but a person of your size, really I could not have come across any person of your size, because I knew that something bad would have happened. It's better that I only stabbed this one child, so that when I got there, I had to make sure that the child is dead, so that the parent could cry in the same way as my mother did. That is still painful.

MR BERGER: My question is, you avoided people of my size and you concentrated on killing small children, that was your aim?

MR KHUBEKA: I agree with you. You wanted him to kill me. I could not have come to people such as, you know, of your size, because they could have taken the spear away from me.

MR BERGER: And in killing this small child, you were not furthering the aims of any political party, you were simply taking revenge for what had been done to your family, am I right?

MR KHUBEKA: I do not concur with that. As far as I am concerned, we were pursuing political motives, we left the township and we were dogs and we had to be sent away, myself, Thembiso Maboga, Montgomery, stabbed this child because my intention was political as they did to me. You make me hurt when you talk about that, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: What political aims and objectives were you furthering by killing that child?

MR KHUBEKA: My political objectives, as I indicated, on killing this child, are similar to the objectives of COSAS considering what they wanted to do to me. They hurt my mother very much so when they came to fetch me at school. Those are such similar political objectives that I wanted to achieve. It is therefore obvious that the mother of the child that I killed was ANC. I was therefore killing a small ANC, they killed a small Inkatha.

MR BERGER: Were you familiar with the aims and objectives of the IFP at the time of the attack?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I don't want to commit myself, I knew nothing, I was just happy to be toyi-toying around. I used to sing. I was the one who was taking the lead in singing.

MR BERGER: When Themba Khosa came to the hostel after the attack, you were there, correct?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I did not see him. I only saw him when he left.

MR BERGER: You did not attend the meeting that he addressed after the attack?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I did not attend such a meeting. I came to the meeting shortly after Mr Khosa had left, that is I still remember very well, when I arrived Mr Damara was addressing the people to the effect that they should burn the loot from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: All right, so let's just get clarity on that. Themba Khosa addressed the people and then he left. After he left, Damara Quonquo gave an instruction that all the loot from Boipatong should be burnt?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And the loot was burnt after that?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, the loot was burnt, even though I did not see these items, I only saw fire, a huge flame of fire.

MR BERGER: Did you think, at the time of the attack, that the leaders of the IFP, Themba Khosa, Mangosuthu Buthelezi, would have approved of your actions?

MR KHUBEKA: I think that they would not have approved of such actions. Those people are highly respected, they are very prominent, to be supporting such matters as the killing of people, no, I don't think so.

MR BERGER: And you knew that that was their attitude at the time of the attack?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I did not know that.

MR BERGER: No, no, at the time of the attack, you knew that the leaders of the IFP, such as Themba Khosa and Mangosuthu Buthelezi, would not have approved of the attack if they had known about it, correct?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, yes. We could have been arrested, that was an attempt to kill.

MR BERGER: Why did you want your actions to be a secret, why did you not want anyone to see you?

MR KHUBEKA: The reason behind that is that those who did the same thing to me kept it as a secret to themselves. I think to this day no-one saw them, but as far as I know or think somebody must have seen them, because in my case Richard saw me.

MR BERGER: But why didn't you want your comrades, who themselves were killing people, young people, old people, babies, in Boipatong, why didn't you want your comrades to see you?

MR KHUBEKA: Mr Berger, would you please repeat the question. I told you I had a hearing problem.

MR BERGER: Why did you not want your comrades, who themselves were killing old people and babies, to see you as you killed the child, why did you want to hide it from your comrades?

MR KHUBEKA: I had to hide this from them, because the very same comrades who killed my sibling kept this as a secret to themselves as well.

MR LAX: Mr Berger, you may be confusing him with the word "comrades".

MR BERGER: Mr Khubeka, why did you not want the people who were with you, the people who were attacking Boipatong with you, to know what you had done?

MR KHUBEKA: It is because I don't want them to know that I did that, killing the child, an innocent soul, that's an innocent soul that I took away, that is the reason. Had I told them that, they could have been dumbfounded about it.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you say about the Kwamadala committee?

MR KHUBEKA: I am saying that they would have gone as far as bringing me before the Kwamadala committee to try and address my shame of having killed a child.

MR BERGER: Approximately a week before the attack, there was a meeting at the hostel, correct?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, there was a meeting.

MR BERGER: And at that meeting you were told about an attack on Boipatong, correct?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, but they did not give us the name of the township.

MR BERGER: They just said, "In a week's time, we are going to attack", but you did not know where?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, they did say that.

MR BERGER: And as far as you were concerned, it could have been anywhere, you weren't concerned to know?

MR KHUBEKA: Anywhere, as Mr Mkhize had pointed out, he did not divulge the name.

MR BERGER: Of course that's what Mr Mkhize has said here, so you're not going to contradict him, is that right?

MR KHUBEKA: I want to say that Mr Mkhize spoke at the arena to say that we will go and attack, but he said, "I don't want to tell you where we will be going to launch this attack, because you people are corrupt, some of you will sneak the information out to the police", he said, "I will tell you on that particular day. Now you can go".

MR BERGER: But he did tell you at that meeting, "In one week's time, on the 17th of June, we will be going on an attack", he did tell you that, he just didn't give you the destination?

MR KHUBEKA: He did not tell us where we were going to attack and he could not have told us. I emphasise that because there are many traitors at Kwamadala, we sell each other out.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you the day when you were going to attack?

MR KHUBEKA: No, he did not tell us.

MR BERGER: Well, what did he tell you on the 10th?

MR KHUBEKA: I remember that that was the day on which he was going to tell us where the attack was going to be launched, but he did not tell us the name of the township. I think that was the meeting, even though I'm not sure of the date. I would have told you had I remembered it.

MR BERGER: What did he say about an attack?

MR KHUBEKA: He said, "People, I heard your cries, you've been crying for a long time now, crying to me to the effect that 'we are dying', and now we are going to go, but I'm not going to tell you where we will go and attack at that place", and therefore each one of us had to conclude what kind of arms each one of us were going to use. He said he was going to tell us on that particular day and there was no date.

MR BERGER: And then on the 17th, he told you, "Now we are going to attack Boipatong"?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I had come from toyi-toying that day, I was very tired, I thought that we were still going to go to Boipatong, I had already thought of that.

MR BERGER: On the day of the attack, at the stadium, Mr Mkhize said, "Now we are going to attack Boipatong"?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, he did speak that day to say, "We are going to Boipatong today".

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that you have only disclosed facts which are already known to this committee and that you are not prepared to say anything further than what your co-applicants have already said?

MR KHUBEKA: I am going to repeat, Mr Berger, the things that I'm saying here are such that I am saying them with fright, I am scared, all the things I am saying here are complete, I am not telling a lie here, all the things that I said, I maintain that all the things that are lies contained in the statement, I still have them within myself, I am now revealing these secrets, I am here to tell the truth, the whole truth. Had Richard not pointed out that I stabbed this child, I would stand by this statement and I continue to say I would not have divulged this information, because that was very scary, not knowing whether I will be killed in the township or not.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, I suppose if Mr Dlamini had not revealed you, you'd still be telling this committee that what you said in your statement is the truth and we must believe you?

MR KHUBEKA: I am putting a stamp on it, that's how it was going to do. I would not have divulged any information, not the slightest. Now I have decided on telling the truth, I'm not going to move from that. I want this to come to an end. People died, man, it's enough now, we are finished.

ADV SIBANYONI: The impression you may create in someone's mind is that if there is still another thing which Dlamini didn't say, you wouldn't mention it, because nobody has disclosed it. What do you say about that?

MR KHUBEKA: I still maintain that, had Dlamini not divulged this information, I know there are so many witnesses who had come forward, they did not implicate me in that, only one person implicated me in that. I was going to challenge Hlope and Bojosi's statement, but not Dlamini's statement. Now that he had explained, I am admitting that I did that. That is the whole truth that I'm coughing out, and I confirm that.

MR BERGER: Mr Khubeka, is it correct that the only guarantee we have that you are telling the whole truth now is because you say so?

MR KHUBEKA: I still maintain that I am the one who killed the child and I am the one who killed the child, isn't it you're looking for the person who killed the child? I am the one, this is the person. Had that person not come forward, I would not have given you anything, you'd run out of questions.

MR BERGER: I've run out of questions, Mr Khubeka.

MR KHUBEKA: Thank you now that you have run out of questions, Mr Berger.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Mr Khubeka, the practice at Kwamadala, while you were staying there, was that members must protect one another?

INTERPRETER: The applicant is requesting for the male interpreter to come and interpret. We are still waiting for the male interpreter to come into the booth.

CHAIRPERSON: As soon as the male interpreter is available, we'll proceed.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, chairperson. Mr Khubeka, I was asking you if, while you were at Kwamadala, the culture or practice was for residents and members of the IFP to protect one another?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I won't want to see a situation where my brother would lose his life whilst I'm watching, we are one thing there, we are trying to solve one problem, therefore we had to protect one another, because we were dying for the mere reason that we were Inkatha members.

MR MALINDI: And if any one of you knew of any criminal act committed by the other, you wouldn't tell on each other?

MR KHUBEKA: I trust that if there's one person who had committed a criminal activity, if a person had committed a criminal act, I maintain that had one committed a criminal act, Shingoza is there, Shingoza is a clan name, the surname is Nthembo, he would take you to the police and Mr Ndebezeto was also there, you'd go to jail if you commit such criminal acts. We therefore had to be loyal and respectful to one another and sensitive to one another.

MR MALINDI: When something like the attack on Boipatong, which the residents agreed upon, the understanding was that none of you will tell what the others did, to the police or anyone else?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, yes we agreed among ourselves, ourselves as residents at the hostel, people who committed these deeds, except for those who were not present.

MR MALINDI: And the practice was that you would protect the residents and the leaders of the IFP if you knew of anything?

MR KHUBEKA: Mr Malindi, would you please repeat the question, I don't understand what you are trying to say?

MR MALINDI: I am saying the understanding amongst the residents and members of the IFP understood that you had to protect one another and your leaders?

MR KHUBEKA: Mr Malindi, we are not talking about protecting our leaders. I would protect people on other things, not on such matters as sensitive as these. Had the chief minister been part of this, I would have pointed this out, and as usual I would say that he was present, he talks quite a lot. Unfortunately, M'Lord, he was not present.

MR MALINDI: When do you say you went to Kwamadala to reside there? When did you go to Kwamadala?

MR KHUBEKA: I remember we went to Kwamadala having come from a veld, it was an old farm, where we were being taken care of by the Red Cross, that was in, towards the end of 1990, that is where we left this veld and the owner thereof no longer wanted us there, because he could no longer - or should I say such a large group of people was beyond his power.

MR MALINDI: From 1990... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Well - sorry, Mr Malindi - did you say that before going to the hostel, you had been staying in a forest?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALINDI: From 1990, when you moved into Kwamadala, until 1992, June... (intervention).

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALINDI: ...you had come to know almost all the residents of Kwamadala?

MR KHUBEKA: I know some of them, and not some of them, some I know them by their other names, and we have these other names that we use, like Bomagejo, Sibingane, etcetera, and some I know only by sight.

MR MALINDI: After this period that you stayed at Kwamadala, are you able to tell the committee the names of other people who went to Boipatong on the 17th of June, besides people like Mr Richard Dlamini and the others that we have already mentioned, like Damara Quonquo?

MR KHUBEKA: Those that I still remember fully is Mr Oupa Moloi, Mr Bojosi and there is one other old man whose name is Bosobengani, he was present as well, and his other name, and his surname is Khumalo.

MR MALINDI: Are those the only ones you can remember?

MR KHUBEKA: I also remember Mgani Zamfesa, his surname is Zulu.

MR MALINDI: And that's all?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes. I cannot continue listing the whole hostel, I would go mad.

MR MALINDI: And we know that Mr Moloi and Mr Bojosi became State witnesses?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALINDI: Where are Mr Khumalo and Mr Mgani Zamfesa Zulu?

MR KHUBEKA: I left them at Kwamadala Hostel, I don't know their whereabouts, but I know them from sight.

MR MALINDI: You have said here that up to this moment that you are giving evidence, you are fearful?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I am rendering this testimony with fear, not knowing what is going to become of me in the township where I reside, whether I'm going to die from here, I don't know.

MR MALINDI: Is it... (intervention).

MR KHUBEKA: Maybe you should lay a small prayer for me so that such a thing should not happen to me.

MR MALINDI: Is it also not that you fear your co-applicants and the residents of Kwamadala, that there will be reprisals if you would tell what their role was in this attack?

MR KHUBEKA: I am not fearful, Mr Malindi, that is not how my fear comes about, I am residing within the ANC, have you forgotten that?

MR MALINDI: And after you heard the evidence that Stikanayo, Timothy Mazibuko, had boasted about raping a woman, did you ask him if this was the truth during the trial?

MR KHUBEKA: You see, Stikanayo, I do not relate to him, he and I do not meet.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter, he says "I did not talk to Stikanayo".

MR MALINDI: Thank you, chairperson. You said that your brother, Themba Mabota, was a thug?

MR KHUBEKA: Indeed, I'm not hiding that, I told you that I don't keep secrets, had he still been alive, he would be arrested today and he would be incarcerated.

MR MALINDI: Was he Victor Keswa's friend, Gatese?

MR KHUBEKA: I was not Victor Keswa's friend, I was a younger brother to Themba Daniel Mabota, who was a friend, and therefore I regarded him as a brother, and that's it. He used to give me sweets. I don't know where he got those sweets from. He used to steal cars.

MR MALINDI: Themba Mabota, Victor Keswa, who else were in that group or that gang?

MR KHUBEKA: Which group, please explain, I don't want to talk about groups that I don't know?

MR MALINDI: The gang that included your brother or Victor Keswa.

MR KHUBEKA: Which group is that, would you please explain?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, he never talked about any gang. Do you want to ask him who else, apart from Victor Keswa, associated with his brother, Themba Mabota, is that the question you want to put?

MR MALINDI: Thank you, chairperson, that's the question I want to put to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR MALINDI: What Mr Malindi wants to find out is who else was your brother's friend? We know that Victor Keswa was one of them, who else?

MR MALINDI: Yes, I understand.

MR KHUBEKA: The one other person that I remember to have been Themba Daniel Mabota's friend is Sipalakose. He only came later and he became their friend, I don't know how they got closer to one another.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter, what he is saying is that the person who joined the group last was Victor Mthembo.

INTERPRETER: Thank you, chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Did you just say that, you said that Victor Keswa and Sipalakose, the person who you do not know how he came to join but who joined last was Victor Mthembo?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes. I don't know how he became friends with them, these people are from the township and he speaks Sesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Who speaks Sotho?

MR KHUBEKA: They used to speak Sesotho, all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about Victor Mthembo?

MR KHUBEKA: He too.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Yes. Themba Mabota's friends, they were all involved in car thefts and other crimes, as you have stated?

CHAIRPERSON: He has not said that, Mr Malindi, all he said is that there were thefts, they were thugs, his brother was a thug.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I object to this line of questioning, because I can't see the relevance.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps Mr Malindi can tell us what is the relevance of whether or not Themba Mabota, Themba Mhkizo, were thugs, were involved in car thefts, to the question whether or not there is full disclosure before us.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, this line of questioning goes along the argument that we may advance that there was criminal gang which was based at Kwamadala, which was terrorising the community, and that perhaps the reason why they were driven out of their township is because they were gangsters and not for political reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: Put that question to him.

MR MALINDI: And chairperson about whether he mentioned car thefts, I'm listening directly to the Zulu and... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).

MR MALINDI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).

MR MALINDI: Mr Khubeka, when I was asking you about the criminal activities of your brother, did you also mention that he was involved in car thefts?

MR KHUBEKA: My brother used to steal cars, not in the township where we resided, he used to bring white people's cars... (intervention).

MR MALINDI: And would you agree with me if I say to you that at Kwamadala Hostel there was a gang involving your brother, Victor Keswa and the others you've mentioned, who were there not because they believed in the IFP, but because they sought refuge there as gangsters from the township?

MR KHUBEKA: No, I do not agree with that.

MR MALINDI: After you went there to Kwamadala Hostel, did you and Mr Dlamini discuss what happened at the house where you speared this child?

MR KHUBEKA: What is it that I could have discussed with Mr Dlamini, there was nothing that I could discuss with such an old person, I have my own peers with whom I could discuss things. No, no. I still maintain no.

MR MALINDI: So, up to the minute that Mr Dlamini mentioned that you killed a child, you had no idea that he might mention that fact?

MR KHUBEKA: You see, I did not know, I did mention this earlier on, it looks like you are going to suffer a hearing problem like myself, I said I did not know that he was going to come up with this piece of evidence, and now that he has, that's it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khubeka, when counsel repeats a question to you, it doesn't necessarily mean that he's deaf, he may be laying the foundation for some other point that he wants to ask you. Do you understand that?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I do understand, I was repeating what I said earlier on. It was not necessary for him to ask me the same question, because he heard, I answered that. He's trying to confuse me now.

MR MALINDI: So up to that moment you believed that Mr Dlamini would adhere to their practice of not telling on other members of Kwamadala or members of the IFP?

MR KHUBEKA: As far as I know, I knew or concluded that he would not come up with such things, that's how I concluded myself, not others.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Did you see any of your group carrying looted goods from Boipatong? --- I still maintain that those who looted at Boipatong, I did not see.

MR MAPOMA: I thought when you gave evidence you said when you went into that room where there was a child, you wanted to loot something because you saw others carrying some loot. Did I understand you wrongly, perhaps?

MR KHUBEKA: You are not making a mistake. I'm talking about at the time when we were in the township, that's when we were still in the township.

MR MAPOMA: So in the township you saw some of your colleagues carrying looted goods?

MR KHUBEKA: I would say so, because I don't know what eventually became of those goods. These people were carrying some of these goods. I did not see who was carrying what in our group on our way back to Kwamadala.

MR MAPOMA: Apart from the child that you stabbed, is there any other person that you stabbed?

MR KHUBEKA: I don't want to tell a lie again, I did not stab any other person, I was trying to restore that which had been taken away, I did two things there, which two things happened to me. I would not add anything to that, I would otherwise go mad.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: In that house where you stabbed the child, is it possible that other people also were killed in that house which you are not aware of?

MR KHUBEKA: No, Mr Strydom, I don't want to commit myself, I don't know. It was a coincidence that I ended up stabbing this child, I stabbed the child with an intention.

MR STRYDOM: In your application you stated that Mr Mkhize gave the order to attack Boipatong.

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, he did issue an order.

MR STRYDOM: Was he a leader in the hostel?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, he was a leader, he was an induna of Sizwe.

MR STRYDOM: Was he an IFP leader?

MR KHUBEKA: No, he was an induna of Sizwe, he was a follower of the IFP and an induna as well.

MR STRYDOM: And Damara, would the same apply to him?

MR KHUBEKA: He too was an induna here in Sizwe, insofar as war is concerned.

MR STRYDOM: No further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: I have just one question, when did your brother, Themba, take on the surname Mabota?

MR KHUBEKA: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

MS TANZER: When did your brother, Themba, take on the surname, Mabota?

MR KHUBEKA: You know, sister, I don't want to commit myself, I don't know when he adopted that surname. I don't know whether it was following on the white wedding of my mother or not. I was not born when this Mabota story came. I think I was still in my mother's veins.

MS TANZER: What is your mother's surname?

MR KHUBEKA: Khubeka, my mother's surname is Khubeka, that is my mother's surname.

MS TANZER: Is it not correct that your brother took the name Mabota after he joined the hostel?

MR KHUBEKA: My brother's ID book bears Mabota and his birth certificate bears the names Themba Daniel Mabota, that's all. Mine has Khubeka. I don't know about this Khubeka which Nosenga is talking about.

MS TANZER: So you have different fathers then?

MR KHUBEKA: I want to explain again, yes, we have different fathers. I did say that my father, or should I say in the case of my father, two trains collided, did you ever see two trains colliding, so two trains collided here, two Khubekas came together, that's when my mother explained to me, or that's what my mother explained to me in her dying bed in hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Madam, do you have any other questions?

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, chairperson, just one aspect. Mr Khubeka, you told us about a meeting that you went to the day after the massacre to do with people who were attacking the hostel, or intending to attack the hostel. Did I hear you correctly?

MR KHUBEKA: The meeting that was convened on the morning of the 18th was a meeting of people who were to come to attack Kwamadala Hostel, that was the day on which we went out as far as the robots, where we were stopped by the police, and we were told that indeed the people who were coming to attack us had been stopped, Mr Mthembe told us so.

MR LAX: Yes. How many people were at that meeting?

MR KHUBEKA: If I were to estimate, the entire hostel, women and children, all of us were at the arena, we could have been one thousand and something, including children and women, we had all gathered at the stadium.

MR LAX: And that was early in the morning?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, in the morning.

MR LAX: And Mr Mthembo spoke to you there?

MR KHUBEKA: No, he spoke to the community of Kwamadala at the stadium, not with me.

MR LAX: Yes, I used you in the plural.

MR KHUBEKA: Thank you very much.

MR LAX: Thank you, chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: Was Victor Kwesa present on the day of the attack?

MR KHUBEKA: May the question please be repeated?

ADV SIGODI: Was Victor Kwesa present on the day of the attack?

MR KHUBEKA: I do not recall, because if I still remember very well, Victor Kwesa is my neighbour at the hostel, he was arrested before the attack of Boipatong. This is not a hearsay, I am saying something that I saw happening, he was slapped by police at the time of his arrest.

ADV SIBANYONI: You said on the day of the attack you were from toyi-toying, what was happening, where were you from exactly?

MR KHUBEKA: Now and then, day after day at Kwamadala Hostel, every day, myself and Mr Qambelani Buthelezi would convene a Youth Brigade meeting at Kwamadala Hostel, trying to prepare ourselves for rallies in terms of singing and dress codes, so that we could look good.

ADV SIBANYONI: Mr Dlamini says your brother, Themba Mabota, was in the same house, but you are saying you didn't see him during the attack, did I understand you correctly?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I did not see him, I don't want to tell a lie, I did not.

ADV SIBANYONI: If you couldn't see your own brother during the attack, is it not possible that Nosenga was also present but you couldn't see him?

MR KHUBEKA: I am saying had Nosenga been present, I know youth members or the youth members, I know the whole youth, I have 18 youths who sing bass, and I have 32 tenors, I, not to mention girls, there were so many of them, I don't know Nosenga, I had a list of all the choristers of the choir that I conducted. Had Nosenga been involved in this Boipatong thing, I would like to say that we were taken short... (intervention).

ADV SIBANYONI: Can I just interrupt you there?

MR KHUBEKA: I'm very sorry myself.

ADV SIBANYONI: It was until you were arrested that you have never seen Nosenga at the hostel?

MR KHUBEKA: I would like to say that had he been present, I would say so, Nosenga was not present, he doesn't know these things, I don't know him. I know the people from Kwamadala, all of them, by sight.

ADV SIBANYONI: Okay, I'm answered, thank you, Mr Chair-person.

CHAIRPERSON: Could Mr Botha, wherever he is, come forward please? We have now come to the close of the present session of these hearings. This is largely due to intervening commitments which I have to attend to, and that being the case, we can no longer proceed with the evidence of Mr Sibongolele Mkolose Mkhize and Mr Nosenga, who are the only two remaining applicants. When we resume next, we will deal with their evidence and hear their applications. Before we rise, just for the record, do you confirm, Mr Strydom, that you represent Mr Themba Khosa, who is the implicated person in these proceedings, and Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi, who are also implicated persons in these proceedings?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, we do appear for Themba Khosa. At this stage we're not appearing for Chief Minister Buthelezi. I said in your office that we did, but that is not correct. I may just mention that we also appear for the IFP as a party, political party, but not for the individual Mr Mangosuthu Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: If you do not mind, would you just stand back and allow Mr Botha to come to the mike please? You will return to your seat shortly. Mr Botha, do you confirm that you appear for Mr Peens, Mr Greeff, is that right?

MR BOTHA: Indeed, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the police officer by the name of Shaka, who appears on his behalf?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I've been in contact with the law officer of the police in Vereeniging, apparently Mr Shaka did apply for legal representation, but as yet we haven't any instruction from the police... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOTHA: ...but he applied for Legal Aid in this matter, and we expect the outcome of the application within this week.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. At this stage you did not appear on behalf of the South African Police Services?

MR BOTHA: No, that is also in the process, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Would you please, between now and the date when we resume, get confirmation whether or not you would be appearing for Mr Shaka and the South African Police Services?

MR BOTHA: I intend to take it up with them, Mr Chairperson, and then I'll communicate with the evidence leader or whoever may be the responsible person.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And if you do not have those instructions, would you also communicate with the evidence leader so that arrangements can be made to ensure that all those who are implicated in these proceedings have legal representation?

MR BOTHA: I will do so, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why I do this is that when we resume next, I do not expect any further postponement on the basis that people are not ready for the hearing.

MR BOTHA: I understand, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And Mr Mapoma, may I please ask you to never, to make sure that whoever is implicated here is legally represented when we resume next and make sure that if there are new legal representation who are coming onto the proceedings, they get all the necessary documentation timeously, so that we are not delayed when we resume next?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, chairperson, I'll do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Is there anything that counsel wishes me to place on record?

MR STRYDOM: No, chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Very well... (intervention).

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, there's maybe just one aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR STRYDOM: I don't know if the proceedings is going to be typed, but if so, we would request a copy of the record so we can have it also timeously, if it's, when it becomes available, so that we can study it before the next hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you know what the - how soon does the record become available?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I do not know, but once the record becomes available, we will notify the legal representatives accordingly, but what I may point out at this stage, chairperson, is that the commission does not make available to the legal representatives the record. All that we do, we notify those parties concerned and tell them the address where the transcribers are, so that they can access the record themselves. That is the exercise of the commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Well, yes, may I ask you though to prevail on those who are responsible for transcribing the record to endeavour to make sure that it is done timeously, so that other legal representatives may then be informed so that they can attempt to secure one if they need one?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, chairperson, I'll do that.

CHAIRPERSON: The other matter which my colleague, Mr Sibanyoni raises, which is equally important, is the question of argument. We've sat through a great deal of evidence, it is all the applicants but Mr Nosenga and Mr Mkhize have given evidence, all that remains thereafter would be the implicated persons, if they desire to give evidence, I would expect that either counsel argues the matter the moment we finish the evidence, or perhaps we agree on some timeframe. I recognise that because of the somewhat long hours that we do sometimes work, counsel may not be able to prepare - be ready to argue the matter at the conclusion of the evidence, but I'm just warning counsel that perhaps they should start preparing written argument the moment they leave this hall, so that if we require argument to be delivered to us within ten days after the hearing, that can be done.

MR MAPOMA: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It seems to us that we will have to get written argument. Yes, very well. Have I just discharged Mr Khubeka? Mr Khubeka, I've just been - I beg your pardon - Just pull that chair and just put it closer to the table. Mr (Indistinct), if you don't mind, if you don't mind, would you just make sure that the mike is closer to Mr Khubeka. That's okay, yes, that's okay, yes. Can you hear the interpretation?

MR KHUBEKA: Yes, I can hear, but the lady's voice is a bit softer.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may now return to your seat. Yes, very well.

MR KHUBEKA: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, there's also the question of the date.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the last thing I want to do, yes. I'm now looking at the diary. Yes, okay. These proceedings will be adjourned to the 6th of April. Did we say we can work on Monday? No, on Monday the 5th.

MR STRYDOM: I see it's a holiday, Monday the 5th is family day.

MS PRETORIUS: It might be difficult to get everybody out of prison on a holiday, Mr Chairperson, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Pretorius, I think you have a valid defence. It's not about your availability, it's about the prisoners. Okay, very well, these proceedings will then be postponed to April, the 6th of April, and we will sit until Friday, the 16th of April, and hopefully we will be finished by then. There is the possibility of us sitting on Saturday, the 10th, if we are not able to finish.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, sorry to interrupt, that week, from the 12th to the 16th, I'm involved in a part-heard matter that's also been postponed, it's also a matter that's in a criminal court, it's been going on for a long time, and there are other senior counsel involved, lots of people, and it's - lots of people, I just can't be here that week.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, those are the days to which this matter will be postponed and will run on those days. If there are any problems, we will deal with them there. Okay. There may be problems for many of us, but we'll try by all means to make sure that at least we finish during the first week.

And then it only remains to thank each and every one of the persons who have made it possible for us to occupy this venue and those who have rendered their assistance from time to time and the members of the audience, who have persevered throughout those proceedings. Thank you.

Yes, very well, we'll rise then until the 6th of April.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS - MATTER POSTPONED TO 6 APRIL 1999

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Name: Paulos Mcikeleni Mbatha