About this site

This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.

Jul 1990: Inkatha Members

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POM. I'm talking with? The name again. Could you spell it for me please?

CM. Clement Mngadi.

POM. And we're in the township of?

CM. Lindelani Township.

POM. Could you tell us the situation that the people here have been facing over the last couple of years, particularly at the moment?

CM. I would say that at the moment there is nothing going on as far as violence is concerned but in December last year, the first week of December, we were attacked and some of the shacks around here were burned down. The people who attacked us came across from Ntuzuma Township. There was a fight and members of the Defence Force were called in, members of the KwaZulu Police were called in, members of the SAP were called in, the violence died at that time so we have not been attacked so far. In December as well we were attacked from this side, next to the DTMB bus depot and all that happened in December. This year we had no violence at all. This is the most quiet place in the whole of this area around Durban.

POM. Is it now protected by the SA Defence Forces?

CM. Not exactly. They patrol all over but we defend ourselves.

POM. So how do you defend yourselves?

CM. Well the same as you sitting in your home and somebody comes in to shoot you, what do you do? You take whatever you've got to defend your family. That's how we go about it.

POM. When the area was under attack last December did large groups come over?

CM. Yes.

POM. Like hundreds?

CM. Even more than that because they were coming in four different directions, some came past the bus depot and others came across here from the Roman Catholic Church side and others came right on the top there.

POM. What side is that?

CM. It's another area outside Lindelani. Some of them came from that side. So they were coming from all different directions but we managed to keep them away.

POM. Would you have advanced, would you see them coming, would you be able to organise to protect yourself?

CM. We were always on the alert, always on the alert because we heard rumours that they were coming so we had people looking after the place at night as well as daytime. Other days they used to come at night and when they thought people were out working they used to come in. Some of our men were inside here waiting for them so there were a few shacks burned this side and that side and on top of the hill there but we managed to keep them away.

POM. What essentially were they trying to do? This is an Inkatha stronghold.

CM. This one?

POM. Yes.

CM. It is an Inkatha stronghold.

POM. So why would they attack it?

CM. They wanted to destroy Inkatha as they said and this is still the same policy of their organisation to liquidating that because some feel people feel that when they go to negotiations Inkatha by that time would have been eliminated altogether because Inkatha is strong in Natal. The strongest hold of Inkatha is in Natal.

POM. It's the strongest political organisation in Natal?

CM. In Natal. This is the base of Inkatha, in Natal. But that doesn't mean to say we haven't got followers in other provinces like the Transvaal and Free State. We have followers in the Cape Province, even in the Transkei.

POM. Now Walter was saying on the way in that there are considerable settlements of refugees in this area too, people who have been burnt out from their own homes elsewhere who make their way here. What happens to those people when they come here?

CM. There are people here from various towns and rural areas and you see over there the blankets that we have collected for refugees and some other stuff has been given over to them. We have a lot of them here because this is the safest spot for them to be otherwise they will be liquidated as well. Our resistance to the attacks made people confident that if they come here they will be safe.

POM. Is that happening in other townships as well or are supporters of Inkatha moving into townships which are already mostly Inkatha and supporters of the ANC moving slowly to townships which are mostly ANC?

CM. Let me put it this way: as I say Natal is the base of Inkatha, Inkatha has been resident in this province for many years. Inkatha has no reason to go to any townships to attack people because this is Inkatha area, the whole of Natal. So the people that came to attack when they got through were not Inkatha, they are ANC supporters. They cannot claim that they were attacked in their own areas. Whatever areas they have got it is because they have attacked those people over there and some of them ran away so they took over the place. But whatever place they took over didn't belong to them originally. The whole of Natal belonged to Inkatha.

POM. Do the people mind the presence of the SADF? Do they see them as protectors? How do they relate to them?

CM. We relate to whatever law enforcement officer is concerned because you have to believe that there must be law and order and people should not Inkatha's policy is that violence is not our option. So if the SADF come along, the SA Police come along, the KwaZulu Police come along, we welcome them because we don't want any violence. In the final analysis nobody gains from violence.

POM. People here, would they want the state of emergency lifted or do they think it should stay in effect?

CM. Well the state of emergency has certain restrictions and personally speaking I would say if violence is still the option of the ANC the state of emergency should still operate until such time that violence has died. You see?

POM. Do you see that happening at any point in the near future? Will the violence stop or will it go on?

CM. What you are asking me now, I take it that you mean to say do I hope that violence will go down.

POM. No, do you think it will?

CM. I'm an optimist. I believe it will go down because the main players here and Chief Minister of KwaZulu and Nelson Mandela of the ANC, if Mandela can agree today to come to meet the Chief Minister of KwaZulu, Dr Buthelezi, then the means will be found to solve the problem of violence.

POM. What do the people here think about Nelson Mandela?

CM. What do you mean by 'what do they think?'

POM. How do they feel about him? Do they think he could do more to stop the violence here? Are they disappointed that he hasn't stepped in?

CM. We believe that if leaders at the top can try some reconciliation and come down to the followers and explain to them that they have agreed to co-exist then there will be no problem. Our people, as Inkatha, is that Nelson Mandela and his National Executive Committee haven't decided amongst themselves to meet the Chief Minister. So that is the whole problem.

X. Mandela, the people's attitude to Mandela is that he cannot solve the problem?

CM. Not my himself.

X. By himself.

POM. You need?

X. These are two individuals. He even plans one party rule so until he moves away from that he is not going to be seen as a peacemaker.

POM. Do you think if Chief Buthelezi and Mandela got together and issued a statement to their followers that they were to cease from all violence and coexist that their followers would obey both of them?

CM. That is part of the solution. They must be seen to be working together to stop violence. Mandela as a person, we have never been against Mandela as a person, and Mandela, to be fair to him, he was willing to meet the Chief Minister. In his letters, his telephone calls but his executive members have told him not to meet the Chief Minister. I recall an instance when he was speaking in the Transkei where he was asked, "Why don't you meet the President of Inkatha?" He said," 'Well, I would be there long ago to meet him but my people would throttle me." They would kill him, so he's not a master, there is some guiding force behind him that forces him not to do it.

POM. Who do you think that guiding force is?

CM. There are radicals within the organisation as you know and those are the people, the Chris Hanis are there, Jacob Zumas are there and others. Those are the people saying, "You should not meet him"' Once you solve his problem with his Executive Committee then Mandela as a person would be willing to meet the Chief Minister.

POM. What do the people, say here in this township, expect if there was a black majority government tomorrow? When you look around here do you think there will be any improvement in the quality of their lives, would there be just as many people living in shacks? Do the people who live in shacks expect to be living in houses soon? What are the levels of expectations?

CM. You see I speak as a black man in SA. I was born and bred in this country. We don't want to change a white devil for a black devil. We don't want that. What we want is a government that will govern the people in such a way that the people will prosper at their own pace. No government can say a man in a shack who cannot afford a house in town should occupy that house because that house must be paid for. We are not even looking to a black majority government. What we are looking forward to is a multi government in the country.

POM. How would you see that multi government along ...?

CM. That will have a lot of benefit.

POM. So you would see a coalition kind of government composed of, say, the ANC, Inkatha, the NP or the NP and Inkatha? What do you mean by multi?

CM. You see I would say, for example, what has happened in Namibia; SWAPO was taken overseas, especially in America, as the only organisation representing all the people residing in Namibia. When it came to the actual voting it was not SWAPO only in the government. It's a multi-party government in Namibia and it must be something along those lines. We don't say because you are white you shouldn't be in the government. No, we say any capable man voted into office by people and he got the votes whether black or brown or white or whatever, that man must be there because we are not looking at a black government. The colour doesn't come into in. We want a good government, how to put that clearly is my problem, but we want a good government, not necessarily a black one.

POM. When people here talk about the changes that are talking place, the negotiations that are going on, what do they think is going to happen? What are they expecting to happen?

CM. You mean between the ANC and the government? Well as far as we are concerned they are still talking about these talks about talks. We haven't come to the actual negotiations because they are just ironing out differences between them, the SA government and the ANC.

POM. When people here talk about it, what are they expecting to come of these talks? What do they see happening after it?

CM. We expect here a process of give and take, both sides. We concede that one or other points from the ANC are good and from Mr de Klerk's side he's got good points as well but they should iron out their differences. We as Inkatha did this long ago. If you tell Inkatha to go to a negotiation table today we will be ready to go there. We've got the man who's got the expertise. Then what is happening now is only ironing out the differences between the ANC and the government. That's how we look at it.

POM. What is your position? What high position do you hold? What title?

CM. Believe me when I tell you I'm a member of Inkatha. I am Organising Secretary of Inkatha in this area. We have codes, we call our code, Code 26.

PAT. What does that mean?

CM. It means that this was taken from the electoral districts of the KwaZulu government.

PAT. Oh, so it's the area?

CM. This is number 26. Our area is number 26.

PAT. And you're the Secretary.

CM. I'm the Organising Secretary in this code.

PAT. And how many members do you have?

CM. I cannot exactly estimate correctly because of violence. It is very difficult to get people moving together. But taking from what we had at Ulundi last week Inkatha is thriving, really thriving.

PAT. How many members do you think you have in Code 26?

CM. In Code 26, at the last count I would say we were about 350,000.

PAT. Good heavens!

CM. Some people overseas project it in an image that Inkatha has been destroyed but we can prove that with ease that that's not the case. Our conference at Ulundi last week proved to anybody ...

POM. How many people were there?

CM. The delegates themselves, how many were there?

POM. 35,000 delegates?

CM. Yes. We had visitors for the first time from the NP, the leaders in Natal for the NP were there which was quite significant because all along they didn't care about coming to our conferences and to add to that Inkatha is the only organisation, black organisation, that has got three conferences in a year. It's the only one. We had the general conference on 13,14 and 15 July. On 6 August our youth will have their general conference at Ulundi. In October we will have the Women's Brigade conference. All our structures are catered for. I am proud to say Inkatha is well organised. I am not boasting, I am stating facts.

PAT. You run a school in this area, in this building?

CM. We are short of schools but in these premises, yes, we have a school operating here and there is another school there, the lower primary school. That is our main problem in this area, we haven't got schools, but something is being done now to get more schools.

PAT. More schools. That's work in progress?

CM. Yes we have discussed that with the KwaZulu government and the KwaZulu government has already taken steps to see that schools are established here.

POM. When your members defend this area, when members of Inkatha defend this area from outside attack by the ANC, what weapons do they use?

CM. You're asking me that. In your house if you are attacked today you cannot take a broom, an axe or anything else that you can defend yourself with. You defend yourself with whatever weapon is at your disposal at that particular time. You cannot just say that because I've got my spear here I'm going to wait and look for a gun somewhere. You grab whatever you can and use it.

POM. But there has been no organised attempt to bring in weapons and to have your members armed so that if you are attacked, like in Northern Ireland for example, organisations there, local organisations that defend their own communities bring in weapons. They bring in guns and they store ammunition and they defend themselves that way. That doesn't happen here?

CM. I must be very frank and straightforward. We feel that that is not Inkatha's option. We have not been looking for arms anywhere because we are not expecting to fight anybody. Even now when we are being attacked we rely on the SADF, the KwaZulu Police or the SAP, but we have no facility to import guns from anywhere. We have no such facility. In the first place we are not looking for any guns from whatever part. We understand that Chris Hani is on record as having said that they are bringing their guns, AK47s, into the country so that if the negotiations break down they will grab power, all sorts of nonsense. I don't think they can succeed. The SA government is well, well armed. Their arms are in the Transvaal. They are selling their arms to over this country, so how can they succeed? It's a futile exercise as far as I am concerned.

POM. Thank you very much for your time.

(Interview continued with other residents of the township: names unknown.)

POM. Could they just tell us their stories?

X. We usually find ourselves attacked by organisations which are anti-Inkatha.

POM. Had they got to move to this area? Were they burnt out of other areas?

X. He says Mr Buthelezi, that old man there, is a refugee here. He is formerly residing in B Extension of Inanda. His house was burnt down and he was attacked because he was a member of Inkatha and so he is here today.

. Again, the ANC/COSATU alliance burnt Mr Mboweni's house here, this old man, because once you are old the ANC takes you for Inkatha. You can't survive, therefore your house is razed down.

POM. Was he living in his house on his own or did he have family?

X. Yes he had family.

POM. And have the family fled too?

X. After the house was burnt down by the ANC alliance I had to send my children back to Lesotho so I am alone in Durban because I must work.

POM. And the people who burnt his house, did they come in the day, in the middle of the night? Did they burn other houses down in the area or just his house?

X. People comprising of UDF/ANC alliance came to them at dawn and razed the house. Not only my house but other people's houses so we ran away to this place. I was residing in Tina's house, near Tina's house here in Inanda. I was conducting my own business, a tyre business and cars. My children were in one of the schools in Inanda New Township, they were attacked from the classes by UDF and ANC.

POM. Students? UDF, ANC students?

X. Yes, and they were forced not to go to school and I could show you the marks from the knife at the back where they were attacked by other students because of the ANC. Afterwards there was a bigger attack from the ANC/UDF now forcing people to become UDF members or ANC. Whoever refused to become a member of the ANC was killed at that time.

POM. Were friends of his killed at that time?

X. Yes there were friends.

POM. How many friends?

X. Three friends of his, very close to him.

POM. How many people altogether does he know who have been killed by the ANC/UDF/COSATU?

X. Over 20 people have been killed by ANC/UDF in the area. Even up to now in a meeting, an ANC meeting, when a person is felt not to say he is supporting Inkatha, without mentioning it but not saying, he is killed on the spot.

POM. A person who?

PAT. In an ANC meeting, a person says something good about Inkatha he is killed on the spot.

X. A certain person was sentenced by the people's court, or the kangaroo court, and killed because he showed signs of supporting Inkatha. It was alleged that he was an Inkatha member so he was killed. I refuse to change, I refuse to change from being an Inkatha member. That's why I'm now here.

POM. And his business?

X. They attacked me, burnt three of my houses, of my rooms, burnt my car and attacked my business and burnt it. I then came here but even here we are still attacked.

POM. Do they come into this shack area and go house to house? What do they do?

X. They simply come and petrol bomb the area and if anybody comes out he's shot down. So in other words when the house burns you shouldn't go out, shouldn't run out. You must remain in the house and get burnt down into ashes. Even if we can go and stand outside you can see the walls of houses without roofs that were burnt down when we were attacked. Up to now there was an improvement on the rate of attacks from the ANC but now this has renewed itself, it is again gaining momentum from 1st July because of the involvement of Roy Ainsley, a member of the King's monitoring group.

PAT. Why did this involvement mean more attacks?

X. Previously there was a feud between Inkatha members and UDF members and the result was the defeat of UDF members, they fled, ran away, so the area fell under Inkatha only. Now Roy Ainsley has gone to those refugees, came back with them after making a meeting with them. [He used to be very aligned ] He said all Inkatha members from C section should quit and only UDF members should be there in the UDF stronghold. In other words he created two zones, an ANC zone and an Inkatha zone, so no-one should cross the barrier line from ANC zone to Inkatha zone and no-one should cross the barrier line from Inkatha zone to ANC zone. So now attacks are stopped.

POM. Because of that? People are not keeping to ...?

X. Just the members who were there from C section, Roy Ainsley, which area Roy Ainsley called the ANC zone, we were attacked there and there. They had to run away from their homes to this side. None of our own ...

. Yesterday night the ANC/UDF came to attack a house here in the Inkatha zone and forced the old mother there, the old woman to give them money so they took away R200.

POM. Right here in this area?

X. Yes.

POM. What are people here doing to defend themselves?

X. We do try to defend ourselves but we have a problem because we are not armed. The ANC are carrying very big weapons that we don't have, I mean modern guns and pistols.

POM. Does he have a family here? Is he married with children?

X. Yes, married.

POM. How many children?

X. I've got 14 children altogether. I'm married more than once.

POM. Are some of his children here, or are the wives here? Are the children at school or are they prevented from going to school too?

X. I was supposed to take some of my children to the farms. Here is one of my sons who was kidnapped by UDF. He is no longer schooling. They kidnapped him from school with the aim of killing him.

POM. Can he tell us what happened himself?

XX. The ANC came to school, doing their enlisting. They came with a register where they were asking children, asking the students to join. They said to me I must join and I said I will not join. They physically forced me out of class, took me away. Just by the gate they started to club me, or to slap me in my face. The other one kicked me and the other one slapped me just by the gate.

POM. Were they young people his own age?

XX. Older.

POM. Was he prepared to die rather than to sign with the ANC?

XX. It's because I was prepared to die because I don't like the ANC.

POM. I'd like to ask two questions. The one is, what the men here think happened at the bus accident last week when 26 people were killed?

X. We cannot know every detail of that because by the time The very same point where the accident took place is a place where the ANC had burnt a car and it was just lying on the road as scrap and it was used by the ANC to blockade the road, to search the cars that were going up and those that were going down, searching them for Inkatha members so that if they find Inkatha members they could kill them, throw them out of the cars and kill them. Now according to our own deduction the bus was obstructed by those scraps that were put on the road and so they tried of attack because as I am talking in the very same part is my sister who is at the Hospital who was involved in that bus accident.

POM. Sorry, your sister was involved in?

X. In the bus accident.

POM. In the bus accident?

X. Yes, and she is not at the same hospital. She lost her two arms and she was trapped on the head and she's got scars and marks on her face.

POM. Did anyone shoot at the people? Were they attacked or - ?

X. According to the account from my sister she says she could recall that after the bus had somersaulted a large number of youths who called themselves uMkhonto weSizwe, the ANC's military wing, came and identified themselves as MK members.

. He is saying that whilst they were trapped in the bus watches were taken out of their hands. There were people among these members who called themselves uMkhonto weSizwe, which is the ANC's military wing, where they said they want to give you help and don't go to this place because there are Inkatha people there. They were taking them to another spot at the bottom of the area from where the accident took place. They were pick-pocketing. After that she was taken, she was untrapped and taken to hospital.

POM. Does his sister blame the ANC for what happened to all the people?

X. She blames the ANC for the scraps that caused the obstruction on the road but to say that anybody did fire a shot, no.

POM. It's not correct.

X. No.

POM. Last I would like to ask each one what he thinks of Nelson Mandela since he's been released from jail.

X. I had personally thought with Mandela when he was released from jail he would call for some change, especially after his call, after his rally that guns and pangas should be thrown into the sea and that black on black violence would stop. I hoped that very peace would come forward on the way from Mandela. He also said children must go to school. After that we really hoped that he would approach the President of Inkatha, the Chief Minister. Up to now I don't trust Mandela again. I have very little faith, I don't have it. He is saying via the newspaper that his followers did not want him to go and speak to the President of Inkatha to the extent that they nearly, he says they nearly did what?

POM. The followers? Throttle him?

X. Throttle him, yes. It dawns in my mind that he cannot control his followers, he fears them because they are attacking people, stealing the people's properties.

POM. The man next to him, I'd like to get the opinion of each one.

X. I am now very old, you can see I'm grey haired, I'm saying ever since Mandela came out of jail we are crying, we are mourning because he's doing this to the nation. We had a very big hope before his release and due to his release that when he comes out things are going to become better but now things are worse. If the whole of the country was me I would really not like him, I would really advise that Mandela disappear from politics although I realise that as an individual my opinion perhaps cannot be felt by everyone. I would tell him that he goes back to jail again. I blame the government for Mandela. The government can really not understand the way the community feels. Naturally to me the ANC doesn't have adequate knowledge about politics or understand. Naturally politics must be well communicated to the community, I mean community feeling, what the community feels then should be espoused by politics. I say this because many a time ANC leaders are leading the youths that are brutal towards the community, violent. I would further blame the churches, so-called Christian institutions, for supporting them. They don't know what they are supporting.

POM. They're supporting?

X. Supporting the ANC.

POM. Is he disappointed in Mandela? Did he have high hopes when Mandela got out of prison that there would be an improvement?

X. Yes I had high hopes but this hope was on condition that I knew that the ANC really could not come up with something that could better lives because it forces people. It is as well in fact, it is our first thing to die in Inkatha and so there is very little I can say about Mandela. Thank you. When it comes to Mandela I say, no, I've never seen his health.

POM. Never seen his?

X. His health. Because even before when Mandela was in jail when there were hopes that he would come out violence renewed and now that he's out it's worse. Even during the day of February 12th when he was released from prison violence escalated. no assistance and to me it sounds that it cannot work.

(The rest of the interview is through an interpreter.)

X. Mandela is busy blaming De Klerk, he is saying De Klerk must attend to the violence and stop it but it's interesting to note that De Klerk ought to ask a question. Is De Klerk fighting he must go to the President of Inkatha and both should meet. Up to now violence is there and it's worse.

. Ever since I was born I did not like Mandela because since I was born, I was born into the party that was not Mandela's. I cannot go very long with Mandela or go any further with Mandela because I know that Mandela's people are killers.. Myself and my family are going to die in Inkatha.

POM. Would you like to say something?

X. I see Mandela as a crooked man. He does not realise who took him out of jail, the man who took him out of jail and that the same man can easily put him back in jail. Mandela doesn't (understand) the white government that put him out of jail and he still says that the government has done nothing, yet it took him out of jail. Worse than that he wants to take over the control of the government by force of arms or by coup, not by the ballot box. I am of the opinion that the government should re-jail Mandela or if the government does not take him back to jail again they must take Mandela back to the Transkei.

POM. Has he been attacked by young people in the ANC?

X. Yes, I have got three bullets in my body.

POM. Where did they attack them? At home? How many of the people who have been in here are working?

X. The majority don't work because ...

POM. How many are there, six? Just one, one out of seven?

X. Only one is working.

POM. What does each man believe has to happen in order to bring about peace, an end to the violence?

X. One has got to go very deep in negotiating because violence is usually in the neighbouring areas so I think leaders from a high level should come down and go and look on the ground for the people who actually do it. I believe that the ANC is the cause of the violence, UDF is the cause of violence and COSATU is the cause of violence. But the ANC is the front. The ANC wants to be the sole political party that is going to rule the people. I say this because the ANC does not have followers. All these followers that are following it now have been forced and now they fear death and therefore people who are Inkatha members are forced to hide their T-shirts because the ANC is going to kill them.

POM. How does he think that peace can be brought about?

X. I have a feeling that if the government could take action against the ANC it's got the right to end the violence.

POM. Thank you.

X. I just want to say that all leaders from all spheres should come together and deliver one message of peace that can bring about peace, a negotiated settlement. They are shivering now under fear because MK, the armed wing of the ANC, is just up here. It is said that they can come in at any time they wish with very modern weapons that we don't have. It is the government that can stop the carnage that is going on at the moment because the wrongdoers are staying on the government's land. Of course the government is saying it's hunting those people and arrest them and go and put them away. As a government, according to the tribe, violence is not going to end until Mandela is taken back to his homeland. He is now trying to overthrow the government by force.

POM. One last question, it can be very quick. Do they think that the SA Defence Forces or the SA Police protect them or do they think that the police and the security forces are more on the side of the UDF and the ANC? Do they see the 32nd Battalion as a protector?

X. Yes.

POM. How about the KwaZulu Police?

X. It's work is tremendous. Without the KwaZulu Police people would merely be killed. They feel protected, without it, well we are not here. I would say that the 32nd Battalion of the SADF works much better than the 121 Battalion. What makes us mourn is that there is no negotiation in the neighbouring areas so that peace can be achieved.

POM. How about the KwaZulu, do you think the KwaZulu Police - ?

X. They have an understanding of the peace because in the areas where they operate violence has somewhat disappeared. Even here we do want them but we don't know what is their whole plan. We realise that the fragmented nature of the SA government has caused various areas to fall under various jurisdictions. Now here it is SAP jurisdiction.

POM. South African jurisdiction?

X. Yes.

POM. Not running KwaZulu?

X. Not - now for KwaZulu to come here and defend it and even if they come here, even if they are authorised to come here but now they are always overpowered by the SAP. Even in a KZP controlled area if an SAP comes in then it becomes superior to a KZP. Now this is not fair, it is a ridiculous situation.

POM. Does he believe the SAP are doing a good job?

X. They don't want SAP here. Combined SADF/KZP control would be much better for the area because now when the SAP is all by itself it fears the ANC and it tends to fight the ANC because it fears the ANC. I would say that where the KZP operates the violence tends to de-escalate but where SAP operates violence does not de-escalate and we are really not completely satisfied.

POM. Would he think too that the SAP tends to side more with the ANC?

X. Yes.

POM. How many people believe the SAP sides with the ANC?

X. All of us feel that the SAP sides with the ANC because they fear it as we have qualified that some of the SAP are living in these areas which are now taken over by ANC. They have got no choice but to side with them.

. You can say that you've been shot here as Inkatha members, been attacked and shot by the Inanda SAP station.

POM. Would you thank everybody very much for spending so much time. We're really grateful and we really understand a lot more. It's been very worthwhile.

X. He is saying you can conduct your own investigation here concerning the manner the KZP are investigating and arresting with the kangaroo court whereas with the SAP there are so many kangaroo courts, but the SAPs are not arresting these people because they are family to the kangaroo courts.

POM. The kangaroo courts?

X. Kangaroo courts.

POM. Let's go back, it's an important point that people support the ANC because they fear it?

X. Yes.

POM. So you were going to say if there was an election?

X. Yes, the way they fear it, that's why they support it and it's my personal feeling that if elections would be held tomorrow people would tend to vote for the ANC because they will be thinking that by voting ANC they will be bringing about change.

PAT. In these parts as well people would vote out of fear for the ANC?

X. Yes, yes.

PAT. Would they be afraid and therefore vote for the ANC?

X. Yes.

POM. Intimidation is so great?

X. We cannot fool ourselves and say that cannot happen. It's there as you can hear. They don't like it but they are forced. Schooling, education is going on. The ANC came here so that the children should become subservient to the Transkei people.

POM. The Transkei people? Do they associate the ANC with the Transkei?

X. Yes. There is a picture that the ANC belongs to Transkei and so it now becomes traditional for people in Transkei to support it. The ANC leadership does not send children to go and cause violence, the youth to go and cause violence in the Transkei. They send them here because now the leadership is mainly Xhosa people. When you come to the real understanding of the ANC, it was established and founded in Natal.

PAT. The ANC was? In Natal?

X. Yes. In Natal by Chief Albert Luthuli.

PAT. Really?

POM. Chief Albert Luthuli was a Zulu. Then the movement was, the ANC leadership, taken over by the Xhosas. Was the ANC leadership then taken over by the Xhosas?

X. Yes.

PAT. How did that happen?

X. You know when Vorster was conducting his mopping up, the time when Vorster was banning the ANC and mopping up anything that was ANC, so now the Zulu leadership did not go out of the country. That is a long story. I can't summarise it now. Long and complicated. Luthuli died when it was banned.

POM. Do they believe that what's going on here is an attempt by the ANC dominated by people from the Transkei trying to make the Zulu nation subservient to them?

X. What is more complicated is that when the Chief Minister invites Dr Mandela then Dr Mandela did not want to meet the KwaZulu Chief Minister and while their followers are continuing to fight. Then from the point of view I see that Dr Mandela doesn't have that feeling of seeing people dying at the grassroots level and what I have observed, which is mostly painful, is that while people were killing each other and Mandela flew to overseas then it's where I've experienced that Dr Mandela is not really a leader because he has refused to meet Dr Buthelezi.

. While Dr Mandela was still in jail I used to hear Chief Buthelezi asking the SA government to release Dr Mandela from the jail. When now he is released he runs away from Dr Buthelezi. That is what I'm seeing as a problem of this country.

POM. Thank you very much.

This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. Return to theThis resource is hosted by the site.