This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.
02 Oct 1997: Lekota, Mosiuoa (Patrick)
(with Jane Gilman)
POM. Perhaps the most important thing of you being here right now at this minute is that Jane is here and when Patricia and I first came here and got a house in Cyrildene Jane and her child, Gladwyn - I'm sorry that Gladwyn is at school not only because if she was not at school today she would actually so monopolise you, but Jane has been with us and I said to Jane, "Patrick Lekota is coming here and he is one of the heroes of the struggle. Don't be afraid and unless he hears from someone like you what's going on or how they see things and how they are going on then he won't be the leader he should be." You have to come down to the people and Jane is the people.
ML. Where is your home Jane?
JG. Where do I come from? I come from Zimbabwe.
ML. Oh I see. How long have you been in this country.
JG. Oh about nine years. I've seen how the people -
POM. Tell him about yourself.
JG. OK. I just think people are not satisfied. They keep on complaining about this is not done.
ML. My approach is, and I think our joint approach is, that back in 1965 our people were asked the question: what kind of South Africa they would like to build when freedom came? They detailed a number of things and the answer really to that question was developed in what came to be known as the Freedom Charter, that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, the equality before the law, all of that, security, education, working conditions and so on. When 1994 came and President Mandela was installed as president freedom really had come but also freedom had not yet arrived. Freedom had come in the sense that we freed ourselves of a regime that had governed the country and that did not have these things on their agenda. But freedom didn't arrive on that day because when President Mandela was inaugurated in 1994 people who didn't have homes didn't suddenly have them. Those in the countryside who had no security of tenure didn't suddenly have it. So 1994 was freedom in the sense that we had shift and got into government but it was in effect not the end but the beginning because it meant that we had an opportunity then to begin to construct the South Africa of our dreams. We had to set in motion a programme how we were going to see to it that everybody who didn't have a house would get one.
POM. ... from the school? The primary school down the road where Gladwin is going.
ML. Before I deal with that let me just complete my answer to the initial question you asked whether I think that we are doing so. I think that in 1994 we began the process of constructing that South Africa of our dreams and I think we are on the road doing that. I think we are providing housing, we are providing this and that. The question may well be whether we are doing that at the speed that satisfies people or satisfies ourselves and satisfies the people. And I think it doesn't matter what, we will always not be happy with the speed with which we are fulfilling that. But I think that process has begun so from the point of view that process has begun, I think that we are doing so. From the point of view of the pace at which it is being done I wouldn't say I'm satisfied with the pace, nor do I think anybody would say I am satisfied with the pace because I think the only pace that all of us would be happy about is if we could show everybody in a house and so on. It's important to understand that the fulfilment of the promises that were made is a process and not a one-off kind of thing.
POM. The money - this is for a primary school. How is Jane supposed to be able to afford those fees to send her child, Gladwin down the street? It's a primary school, a public school.
ML. Now you see there's a problem here that requires an understanding of our society.
POM. We should at least say for the record what the fees are so that I'll remember.
ML. Yes, well the point - one, acceptance of my child is the people in the school to pay a non-refundable deposit of R100. During the first week of every term to pay R1225 each and then ... for the whole amount, or such amount as may from time to time be charged for school outings and occasions. During the first week of every term to pay R1146 or such sum that may from time to time be charged for school outings.
POM. This is just to go to the local primary public school?
ML. Yes. Now one of the things that -
POM. This is a white area.
ML. The first point to take into account is that the rates in that pre-primary school were set a long time before and when they were set they were set with an eye of the kind of community that it was tendering for. It didn't tender for domestic workers and for blacks generally but just for whites and this was a class of people whose income, wherever they worked, allowed for that because in their system of job reservation also packed salaries or wages in those categories of jobs that were preserved for whites so that if any white person lived here generally their income would allow them to deal with that. The question now, of course, is whether the rates - first of all, if you bring a domestic servant into the same situation you need to deal with the question of their income so that they are able to blend. If you went into the African communities now in Soweto or something you will find that the rates for pre-primary school children and so on, you will find that those rates there have risen somewhat but in general terms they have kept more or less pace with what the situation there has been. One of the debates now that is raging at political level, in parliament and so on, is the question of the minimum wage issue. Thus parliament said a national minimum wage compelling employers to pay no less than a certain amount of money to their employees and that is in part perhaps not the best but in part an attempt to deal with problems of this nature and I am talking really about on the factory floors of various factories and so on where people have to contend with these kind of things, to try and bring that kind of balance. There are of course problems that arise once you raise that issue of a national minimum wage.
POM. I would like you to go back, Patrick, for a moment. I would like to take this piece of paper and walk down to that school and say, how do you expect Jane to pay those fees?
ML. That is one thing you could do. If I was in your position I would want to -
POM. Why don't you write on the back a note and I'll take it down to the Principal?
ML. No, what I am going to raise is that I would want an issue like this to be raised with the Minister of Education here in the province, Mary Metcalfe. That's who I think -
POM. But Jane doesn't have the power or the access, doesn't know how to do that. The school says, here's a form, fill the form, give the money and your child is accepted. If you don't fill the form, if you don't fill it out and if you don't - for example, before she came here Gladwin went to school today and they demanded R100 in cash before the child could go into school.
ML. No, no, I don't think it's correct to say, nor do I think it would be right to say that Metcalfe is not accessible. She must be accessible. The question may be where to get her phone numbers and so on. With NDI now we have produced a directory of those phone numbers of all ministers wherever they may be and so on.
POM. If Jane goes down the street with her child, if you go down the street with your child, you drive her to school and they say we want R100 up front and you've got to sign all these forms and she's confused, she doesn't know what's going on, what her rights are, who she has the right to appeal to. She won't say to a white school mistress, "Excuse me, my child has the right to free education, it's guaranteed under the constitution." How would you advise her? If she was taking Gladwin down tomorrow morning what would you advise? What would you say tomorrow morning when you take Gladwin down to the school? What should she say?
ML. Well I think the first thing is that - how old is the child?
JG. She's four.
ML. You see the way we have worked on the system up to this point in time has been to seek to provide education free from seven years upwards to about, well now we will do that up to Standard 2 this year, because every year we are going to build it up that way. The question that really arises is whether, because at the moment we have not guaranteed every child pre-primary education, we have not done that because we are unable to for budget purposes to do that. What we have done at this level is to guarantee free medical care from birth to the age of six. There will be a bit of a difficulty with the pre-primary education.
POM. My question is that if you guarantee from seven on and in a globalised world where education becomes more attenuated all the time, and children are more exposed to everything from the television to the Internet, how can you let go the really formative years that are between probably about four and seven? You're omitting the wrong generation. Do you know what I mean?
ML. But there had to be a choice made in the light of the budget constraints. What do you do? Do you guarantee children with the limited resources you have, do you guarantee them pre-primary education and then when they must start actual years of formal education you say, no, I am not able to do that. We have considered that with the limited amount that we have let's guarantee formal years of education for starters and build on that, maybe up to Standard 6, because at this time when they get about six, seven years the actual preparation for a life struggle begins and we could not afford to prepare them to start the formal years and then when the parents are unemployed and they cannot send them into formal education we say they must now roam the streets. And so the choice because of the limitation of resources for this period was, even if in the formative years before they can begin to be running around and be troublesome even if you didn't - at that time they are still much more manageable at home with whoever may be at home, grandmothers or some others. But once they get to seven years let them go into formal education and let there be no excuse about that. So you may as well prepare them for that time but, for goodness sake, once they are at this time they mustn't be standing at the corner if you can avoid it, they must go into school and then you can build on that. So that's been the kind of trying to say which are the best years to deploy the resources that are available and that's been that.
. The question, of course, that may arise now is what can be done outside of the national budget available for this? Is there anything that can be done outside of that? Can we mobilise private support for this and so on? And we may have to look at that. The students who are finishing matric now, and there are thousands of them who finish matric, are finding that they should be given bursaries so that they can then go into Technikons and so on. Now you have also again to choose, do I prioritise the ones at primary school or do I prioritise the ones who have passed matric? The ones who have passed matric are available, they should really go to work, but the kind of education that they did receive up until now does not enable them to leave school with that matric certificate and do something. They need at least another two or so years, minimum of two years for some technical skill of sorts. Now do you prioritise those ones and say I will give these ones bursaries at the expense of the ones that still need formal education?
POM. Let me turn that around in a very personal way because Jane's here, is that we can send Gladwin to school, we can do that, Pat and I. We can do that. But we want to get Jane, we were just talking before you came here, we want to get Jane out of here. We want to get her into her own apartment with Gladwin. We want to get her trained, probably in something with computers so that she can do all that. Now if she had to take care of her child all day she wouldn't be free to do any training herself. So you end up with (a) a child under seven who doesn't have any capacity or access to education and (b) you end up, as in many cases, a single parent usually a mother who doesn't have the capacity to get out of the situation of being a 'domestic servant'. Where does that fit in priorities and how is that dealt with?
ML. There is some prioritisation that has to be done I think.
POM. I know that but I'm pushing you. I'm pushing your imagination.
ML. I can see, I can see you are pushing me, and that's why I say that some prioritisation must be done, maybe not primarily by yourself but primarily by Jane. Jane needs to make a decision because she is between the devil and the deep blue sea in that sense because I am saying to her as government we don't have money to put this child free in this thing. She's got a limited amount of resources, she's got a choice to use those resources to go build herself her own house or something, or she can choose that she wants to invest this money in the education of her child. She might decide to make that decision and I think if I was in her position I would think that way. I would like to have my own house, indeed I would like to.
POM. Not house, how about training to get out of being - I'm saying I don't want her here. I'm saying to Jane every day, "I don't want you here."
ML. I would like to get training myself and then maybe I might decide that first of all the priority, two things might be done but the priority is that my child must get that, so I would try to find some arrangement that would certainly prioritise that child. And the second thing would be, I would seek to find if I could build into my schedule time when I could do some training, much in the same way that Mathole Motshekga worked as an administrative fellow at the University of the North and took some of his free time to pursue studies.
POM. This is? Jane doesn't know who he is.
ML. You know him? When he finished matric and then his father had died so he had to go and work because his brothers and sisters had nobody to support them. So he went to get a job and he had this job where he was working and then part of the money he was getting was paying for the fees of his brothers and sisters and maintaining his mother, because he was the eldest. But at the same time he contrived to put something into his own life programme. OK so he would have had other people assisting like some uncle or some other things taking the burden of some of the kids, but what he did do is that he prioritised and found extra time, his own free time to do a correspondence course.
. So, for instance, I would want to find out in the area if there is not any place that offers training by way of computer training and so on after hours or even if the child went to school, say in the morning, if you could find an hour or two or the hour at lunch to go and spend that dealing with the computer and so on. And then in the evening after the child has gone to sleep to spend another hour or hour and a half to do something like that. The point about it is that whilst you are improving yourself but where you don't want your child to find herself in the situation in which you already are so you can see why you need to do that. But you also do that for another reason, that your child sees your investment for yourself. If you are able to enable that child to get that option that you didn't have, later on when you are no longer able to look after this child you will have enabled this child not only to look after itself but to look after you even better, and in fact even to look after her own children as well.
. The thing about it is that we need to understand that our country is coming out of a situation, historical conditions which were not of our liking, were not created by ourselves but we found ourselves in these historical circumstances in which sections of the population were denied education, denied opportunity. We need to correct it now and there is simply no way in which we can just give everybody everything that we want to give them. There may be a job that we could give for computer training and so on but you should have got that computer training before we came to government for us to be able to make use of that thing. Now it's not like we just came to government and then there is an opportunity for a computer job for you to go into, but apartheid, the regime, did not prepare you before so that when this freedom comes and that opportunity is there you can take advantage of it. So we have to do a double job. First of all we have people who have not been trained, we have to see that these people are trained and then even the opportunities that are there, apartheid built a situation in which only those who were destined in the judgement of the old regime were prepared to do that, they were prepared by the previous government. Now we have to prepare the people so that they can take advantage of the opportunities that freedom has brought and there are very few of them.
POM. Can I just go back a bit? You have talked about some very, very important things and before you came I told Jane who you were and what part you had played in the whole struggle to bring about the liberation of this country and she recognised your name and went out and changed her clothes. Now when Mr Lekota comes in here, it is that you just be absolutely, brutally honest with him and she feels a bit inhibited by your presence.
POM. So when you go around and talk to other 'domestics' or whatever, in the last three or four years have they been treated better, are they doing better or their quality of life improving? At least Pat and I try because we try to be exceptional. But what do the people that you talk to and go to church with and come out of church with and meet, what do they think is happening in the country?
JG. The people I talk to, maybe like other domestic workers like I am, it is as if the government is looking at itself but not at people around. Maybe someone is working for somebody, sometimes people work for whites, people like that, they sometimes treat them badly, sometimes they don't even pay them, all those things. What they say is they don't see what the government is doing about that. It's like the government needed them to vote but doesn't care about what's happening about the people. They think the government should first take care of the people, first of all.
ML. Look I want to answer you. First of all, just to repeat the point that I made earlier but I don't want to use the same words, I said that we have to build the South Africa of our dreams. In a real sense our people or as a people we are no different from the Children of Israel. After they crossed the Red Sea their promised land, they didn't immediately get there, so they had a long journey to travel to get to the promised land. I would like you to keep that in mind because it's just about saying to build the South Africa we want is going to take us time.
POM. Can I interject with a question, because this is one I have been asking people for over a year. Why among the population, say Africans in particular, isn't there any sense of knowing that you must sacrifice in this generation in order that the next generation are going to be the beneficiaries? Why, for example, do you have - I was down with Popo yesterday after a meeting in Rustenburg, you had COSATU saying wages must go up, but this is not sacrifice, this is selfishness. Where is what President Mandela I think two years ago when he introduced the budget, he talked about the need for a new patriotism. It seems to me that the new patriotism is conspicuously absent. Everybody is out for himself or herself.
ML. I think we must be faced with that problem, it's a normal problem that we must be faced with. It is so because the people we have in this country are not moulded freedom fighters. Freedom fighters go to join the movement or something, they begin to understand that it's not a contract, they have to be paid. Maybe I might be happy, maybe I'm not being happy with it, but I want to do it because I believe it's the right thing to be done. In the meantime the vast numbers of the people in the country were not necessarily exposed to this idea. They were too desperately involved in the struggle for survival from day to day, concerned about getting some home, having some food on the table and things. Sadly the entire ethos, the entire approach of the society up until 1994 was not about doing things for somebody else. If you look at the whites passing the law that the best jobs must be 'ours', the best wages must come to 'us', and so on. That was the most looming and glaring thing that people have seen and as that society was moulded and shaped in that way it tended to produce men and women who came to understand that their survival was only in this way. So you have vast numbers of people that have been groomed by the old order for more than 40 years to think - I just have to try and get something for me. And then comes 1994 and you want to give this society new values, you want to teach it to approach things in a new way. You say to them, many people were just thinking that one is working with the regime let's go and kill that person and burn their house down and do that. We had to say to them that's not the way we're going to construct our future. First of all let us learn to forgive, these people may have done all of that. So a lot of energy has gone into trying to persuade people, please at the very minimum the future will not be built by burning down, by smashing, by robbing and killing people and so on. And I think to swing around an entire society to the position where people will say we endorse this, at least we agree we must forgive, we must try to take hands and so on, I think that is a major achievement, a major, huge step to do that. The second thing, of course, is that people say OK we see that, that's fine, we agree with that and so on, but I want to have a house now and I want to have this and I want to have it now. You must understand people do not know the budget constraints. As far as they are concerned the government must have money to do these things.
POM. Can I interrupt you for a moment. The average person in this country, the average man or woman, doesn't even know what the word budget means.
ML. Certainly. That's the point I'm trying to make that people don't know. I used to go around when I was Premier of the Free State and I would say to people, "You know we are saying we give you free medical care but it's not free because you have paid for it, you pay for it. When you pay VAT or tax that money comes back to us and we give it back to you in the form of free medical care whether you work or do not work. We will say if your wife is expectant she must go to hospital and get treatment when she is not feeling well. So it is free in the sense that you don't pay at that point in time but in fact insofar as you work and you are paying tax when you pay VAT, it's not free, you have paid for it. It's your money." We have got to educate people to understand that they are paying for everything. It is in fact there. But some of the people are unemployed so the way we return the money back to them is not to choose who is working and who is not working. We are going to say whether you are employed or not employed if your wife is expectant she may go into the hospital and receive medical attention. Whether you are working or not working if your child is ill and is under six years that child must be able to get attention in the hospital because we want to save the life of the child. It's not the mistake of the child that you are not employed. And then of course you say the big companies must also pay tax and part of the tax they pay is we also add to the tax that you have paid so that that tax enables us to do more things. In the schools where we give food for children when they are hungry, we don't say, no your parents are not paying in taxes so we will not give and so on. So we try to spread that. You see we need to explain those things to the people.
. I think one of the weaknesses why people say the government hasn't done anything is because we have not been able to explain as I am now explaining how that tax you have paid, that that tax goes back to you in that way. When we say to people, business people and so on, even black people, to say look, everybody must pay tax and even though you are black and you were oppressed you must pay tax. And one day they will understand that and then they won't feel bad that they are paying tax. They must feel that I want to pay this tax because I understand how it is going to benefit me and work for our people. So there are many people that you are meeting who are feeling this way because they don't understand that. But there's another additional point which is even more important. Now when we give free medical care to you, to every child under six years, some people would think this way - well I don't have a child that is under six years so I am not benefiting from that, or they don't see how it benefits them because they don't have a child that's under six. You say, OK we will take the money and we will deploy this money as subsidy to help people who have no homes. Somebody who already has a house says, "No, what about me? What am I going to get because I have a house, give me my money so I can get myself something." The point is not that. We have to be able to explain to the people that the government must identify and do projects which are going to benefit the largest possible number.
POM. But it would seem to me, Patrick, that what Jane is saying is that the government has not been able to explain exactly what you say must be explained. So it's failure is to - not to interrupt because I want to you go on, but after you leave I will say to Jane, "Jane what did you learn from being with one of the premier people who brought about the liberation of this country, one of the most successful Premiers of a province?" And she will probably look at me and say, "Well he said an awful lot of words but I don't quite get it." Would that be fair? That you don't quite get it?
ML. Well I'm not sure, I'm saying to Jane that a lot of good has been done. I'm saying that one of the weaknesses is that we have not made sufficient time or we have not had sufficient time to do good things but to make the people for whom you are doing those things understand how these things are good for them, so they understand that. And I am saying that I am satisfied and I am convinced that where such explanation is given people, look at that and they say this is good.
. I give you an example. On the 16th June I went to address a meeting of the youth in Rustenburg so I said to the mass meeting that people say that this government has not delivered. There are people who are saying that. Of course I was putting it this way, some people ask now and then what has this government done for us since we came to government? And some of the people ask that question, the majority of people ask that question because they honestly and genuinely want to understand, they want a genuine reply. There are some people, politicians, who ask that question also in order to use it to say to the people this government has not done anything for you, you must not vote for it next time so you vote for me. So I say we must differentiate between the two categories of people. We must not get angry when people ask this question and think we must just fight them. That's not going to answer anything and it's wrong to do that. The people are entitled to ask this question because they want to understand it. So we must now answer the question, so I say to them that now answer this: this government has delivered quite a substantial amount. But the question is what and to whom?
. The first thing is your movement has come to government and we have given this country a constitution that gives everybody equal rights. Yesterday's super human beings and yesterday's sub-humans have now been equalised before the law. I said this is delivery because the previous constitution did not create this situation. Today black sections of the population of this country have political rights they did not have before. It may not be something that you can hold with your hand like this and say now this is what is done for me, but today you have graduated in health. And I said, now leave the question of housing and medical care and all this stuff which you all hear about and let's just take the youth of this country. Today the youth of this country are world champions in rugby, champions of the world. I say it doesn't matter what you say about this, this government made it possible for the youth of this country for the first time after I don't know how many years to compete openly and fairly with the youth of other countries. This is a right that the youth of this country did not have and when they leave to go and play rugby they don't have to leave under cover of darkness, they don't have to hide, they don't have to smuggle and they don't have to face the humiliation of being driven by protesters abroad. I said the youth of this country, and I said that's delivery. The youth of this country are now Africa's soccer champions. This government made it possible for them to do that, compete and then to win and then to be there. This is delivery. Now my son, who is not in the squad, of course does not benefit directly but he can walk the street, it gives him the type of dignity, he can meet the youth from any country and he can say we are this and so on. This is a sense of pride which was not there.
. Now cricket, you can do all this kind of thing, but what I was saying was there are difficulties - even this meeting, if it was not for this government we might not be meeting here without teargas being thrown in here, without some of the youth being shot dead and so on. But the change that this government has brought you can do this. People, if they are not happy in this country today, they can go there and say look, we are not happy about this, they can march along the streets without being afraid they are going to be shot dead and so on. They can go and state their complaints and so on. A lot of this is some delivery, it has made life easier for people.
. Now there are other things we have not finished because, as I say, we can't fulfil it in one day so we are working to get to those other things and to try and improve them. The conditions of work, you are very right, many white people continue to treat their workers as they do, that's why we are having the battle with the Basic Conditions of Employment Act because we are trying to deal with that. People who are working -
POM. Jane, do you know what the Basic Conditions of Employment Act is?
JG. No I don't.
ML. Let me tell you about it.
POM. Does anybody that you talk to know about it?
JG. I don't think they know about it.
ML. Well, look, in the Free State I have been addressing meetings in the countryside of the farm workers saying to them we are now busy making a law that is going to say how much, more or less, at least the minimum you must be paid, how many hours you should work. We are busy with this law so we are trying to change your circumstances. So we are telling the workers but I am not sure that they are being told everywhere. So the workers on the farm, in the countryside and so on where there is not even TV there, they don't know about that.
POM. But Patrick this is here, this is Johannesburg. We have TV out there, we have TV here and people don't know.
ML. So it's not only a question of putting it on the TV also, it's a question of being able to tell people in their mother tongue, in Sotho, in Zulu, in Xhosa, those who cannot understand English and to help them understand how that works. The structures of the ANC, of COSATU, of the PAC, of the National Party, the political parties ought to be telling the people that. We have not gotten there unfortunately, the point is that we have not gotten there. You know what I was saying yesterday by the way, until we came to government all the time we had we spent talking to our constituents, called mass meetings to do that, then freedom came and suddenly the amount of time we spent, all the time with the masses, the day was still as long as 24 hours but now we had to govern the country and also talk to our constituents but in fact my point is that most of our time was taken by us governing and much less time now talking to our constituents, not being able to go to explain to them what we are doing, why we are doing it, how it's going to benefit them. So there is a lot this government is doing but there hasn't been sufficient telling the people who have placed us there what it is that we are doing. And that's what we need to change.
. Padraig, it's 11 o'clock, I really have to go my friend. If you like I can see you again later. When are you going back?
POM. I want this to be Jane talking to you.
ML. Well I can come and talk to Jane. I want her, if she has spoken to other people, and then maybe I can come back. I'm leaving for Pakistan on Monday and I come back on the 14th and I will come back here before November or in November. Maybe we can see. I hope you have understood most of the things I have said. You can then, of course, talk to the others and see what their response is.
POM. You're leaving when?
ML. Monday, the 6th. Then I come back on Monday 14th.
POM. I'm leaving on the 18th. Could I see you any place between the 14th and the 18th? I've actually questions for you too.
ML. Let me tell you what, Padraig, on 16th I'm being inaugurated as Chancellor of Technikon, Free State, on the 16th. It will be in the evening in Bloemfontein.
POM. What time.
ML. About seven o'clock.
POM. OK. I will be there. Could I see you after that?
ML. I'm sure we could.
POM. Will you invite me as your guest?
ML. I will get you sent an invitation.
POM. Before you disappear, will I get a chance to talk to you for a bit? I'm seeing Mac Maharaj at three o'clock, I will either fly if I get a plane, I will be there by seven. Now I have got to be back in Pretoria on the following morning at eleven.
ML. We will be able to talk after the inauguration.
POM. OK. What time is that? Two? The second thing is I have been, as you know, here since 1989 plaguing people year after year after year. I will have by next year when I finish this study, God knows what it is at this point, over 10,000 hours of taped material and transcripts that you can say I am donating to the Institute of Contemporary History as part of my gift to your country.
ML. That's really a huge contribution.
POM. Thank you, and I want to give it to your University in the Free State. That's where I want it to be. I was down there last week and I was totally impressed by the Institute of Contemporary History and the way they do things that I want to give all of the stuff that I do, even if I die and never finish the book, I want everything I have done in the last ten years to go there so that other scholars, other historians and commentators can go and listen to the tapes or get the transcripts and look at them, and I would like you to announce that when you're being inaugurated, that 10,000 hours of history collected over ten years from all of you on every side, from Eugene Terre'Blanche to King Goodwill Zwelithini to families like Jane.
ML. Fantastic. A deal is a deal.
POM. Who do I talk to? I know you're so busy, who do I talk to on your staff?
POM. OK, I know Pat.
ML. I must move on.