This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.
21 Nov 1994: Gwala, Harry
POM. Mr Gwala, you were just talking about the prison and how unbearable the conditions were there. How long were you in prison?
HG. From 1960, from then to 1972. Then I was arrested in November 1975 and held in prison until 1977.
POM. Were you tried?
HG. In both cases I faced trial. The first one was the sabotage trial, the second trial was on terrorism.
POM. And you were able to meet with Mr Mandela and other leaders of the ANC who were confined there?
HG. They were confined to isolation, I only met them when I went there the second time, the first time we were not allowed to mix.
POM. Is that right? So each person was in a single cell?
HG. Not every prisoner. The Rivonia trialists were kept separate from the rest of the prisoners. When I went back to prison in 1977 they were isolated and I was put in the same section with Comrade Mandela and the others.
POM. Were you able to mix with them?
HG. We were able to mix.
POM. So that was a different kind of experience?
HG. It was quite a different kind of experience because it was a marvellous opportunity to exchange views together.
POM. Let us start today at the elections. You had Henry Kissinger and Lord Carrington pack up their bags and say there was nothing really to mediate between the ANC and the IFP and they went home, and you had the escalation of conflict between the ANC and the IFP and then suddenly Buthelezi decides to come into the election. My first question would be, why do you think he decided at the last minute to come in?
HG. Well Buthelezi has got a role to play which in our minds is the role to be the alternative to the African National Congress because everything is directed against the ANC. When he realised that the elections would go on with or without him I think his advisers told him the best thing for him to do was to participate, so at the last minute he participated in the elections.
POM. Do you think his participation prevented a lot of conflict in KwaZulu/Natal?
HG. It didn't, conflict continued, it still continues as of now. It is similar to the question of Angola, Mozambique, where Savimbi needs to come into an agreement. I was listening to him at the weekend, he was talking about the destabilisation in this country, a man who is a Cabinet Minister in the government can be expected to carry out the spirit of the government of national unity, reconciliation, he should participate in matters of reconstruction, but he doesn't do that. All he talks about is conflict between himself and the ANC. Such a man becomes problematic.
POM. Again going back to the elections, after he decided to come in the elections went off and at least there was little violence even if there was some intimidation, as soon as it was over you had the ANC making allegations against the IFP, and the IFP making allegations against the ANC, and the NP making accusations about everybody. One, a number of people have suggested this to me so I'd just like you to see it as a scenario, the election produced a result which more or less satisfied everybody, at least it was regarded as being legitimate and brought stability to the country by and large. Buthelezi got KwaZulu/Natal and a senior place in the government, the National Party got the Western Cape and 20% of the votes, and the ANC got a large majority but not more than two thirds so it couldn't operate as a single party state unless it had more than two thirds of the vote. It was suggested that this was because the voting process broke down, because many of the votes were missing and an informal understanding that this type of result would be acceptable to everybody involved because it would bring legitimacy and stability. Do you think there is any merit to that scenario at all? And, two, do you think it was more important to have a result that would be perceived as being a legitimate result and bring stability than for the elections to be free and fair in the classical western sense of the word.
HG. It's not a simple question. There are so many things involved in this. In the first place the ANC and the IFP were at loggerheads and you have said the protagonists sat down to find a solution to the problems of the country where they had the answer in saying let us have elections and people were looking forward to that. Now they didn't want to delay the so the elections were held hurriedly because there was no voters roll. There was no proper supervision because for the first time elections were held in accordance with democratic norms as far as the black people of this country were concerned. So that it was a matter of doing what was most practical. If we had delayed the elections people would think that we were delaying their freedom. If you hurried the elections there could be a lot of miscarriages of justice and indeed that did happen. No-one ever felt that these elections were fair because there was so much corruption, including ... that we could go to court and ask ... but imagine the amount of damage that would be done to the country. It was not a question of legitimacy as that of political expedience, what was the best thing to do for the country. ... but they didn't want to publish that because it affected the election. People were intimated, people were assaulted, people were killed. In many polling stations during this time people were told how to vote and what to vote for. When it comes to democratic elections it was a farce but we had to bear with that farce. We wanted to go to court but we were persuaded not to because it would complicate matters so we grudgingly accepted that outcome. We are reaping the result of that now because Buthelezi wants to create an impression not only in Natal but in the whole country, in the world, that he won the elections in Natal.
POM. When I have been going around the country a lot of people in the regional governments have said that there was no way the country will be ready for local elections next October, that no-one has begun compiling voters' rolls, the constituencies have to be delimited, boundaries drawn for wards and they complain, one, they have not been given the powers or the resources by central government to do so and, two, ...
HG. That is only theory. In fact all that is meant is to protect the vested interests which rests in those who control this country economically and when they delay these elections, if we are serious about it there is no reason why we could not have started this voters' roll, that would be money worth spending because if you've got a proper voter's roll then you can go to elections in October. There are many municipalities which don't want any elections at all, they still want to preserve their own privileges. People want elections, people want to go forward.
POM. But wouldn't it be the role of federal government to insist that a process of compiling a voters' roll be begun? Who is responsible for doing this?
HG. The central government but I think they have got so many considerations to make, there is a very big pull from those who don't want to go forward and even the central government finds itself helpless. You must reach consensus on all these things. That very consensus makes the ANC government a prisoner of its own situation. Look at the police force, you see the same policemen who were clobbering people before elections, still the same commando in the army is still in charge. Nothing has changed.
POM. Do you think that it has been a liberation movement that has only achieved so far symbolic freedom and not real freedom?
HG. They have only achieved one thing up till now, the right to go to the ballot box, and then the people declaring for ANC. We will change the socio-economic situation in the country, the politics of this country, the economic set-up in the country, the social conditions in the country. We are doing that process now and there's going to be a hell of a lot of spending to make this happen.
POM. A couple of weeks ago Thabo Mbeki in a speech mentioned that the government was going to introduce a programme of privatisation of parastatals and other government owned bodies. Did you ever think you would see the day when the ANC would go from using the word nationalisation and the need to nationalise industries to the time they would come round to a belief in privatisation?
HG. I hoped that this matter would have been discussed within the organisation first because we have moved in different South Africas. He lives in the South Africa of the United Party. He lives in the period of the Nationalist Party regime. When denationalisation was started prices spiralled and everything went out of control. We could go to hospitals because they were run by the state. We had easy access to the post offices when they were run by the state. The railways owned by the state. But once you have privatised look at the number of toll gates now, every other person can't go to hospital because privatisation means money going to more of these private companies for their own assets, their own morality and their morality is to make a profit. We still get leaflets, it's always accountable to the electors. The NP passed a law to explain to the people that if you are just a private company you don't get that ... If you're going to privatise what is there now there's going to be real trouble.
POM. Two years ago I interviewed Derek Keys when he was Minister for Finance and I asked him why he quit the Cabinet so soon after his appointment and he said, "Well my job was done. I was brought in to ensure that there would be certain types of economic policies and I am satisfied that these policies would be pursued in accordance with IMF and World Bank guidelines, my job was done, there was going to be a market economy." Do you think that the National Party just won that battle in ensuring that for the time being at least ...?
HG. Yes, but let me tell you about the IMF, because I know how they process their loans. If you look at South Africa today, look at bread which is a staple food for the people in this country, when the price goes up like that you are denying our children, our old people and other people that morsel of bread, their own people. When everything goes up like this then the economy goes out of hand completely. The so-called free market economy does not always answer the problems. There must be a mind of state, a regulation of the state because in the market economy there is anarchy in consumption. They produce what is bringing immediate profits to you, you don't first think of the needs of the people, you think of how much profit can we make.
POM. So when you look at the RDP do you see it as conforming to the parameters of your political philosophy?
HG. emember after the depression Roosevelt came up with something like this. It's not an innovation, we are trying to do something to solve this problem, we're not going to answer every problem.
POM. You mentioned Roosevelt, two years ago a team of ANC constitutional people, came to our university in the States and went round to different places studying various structures of American government and they came to our university and we gave them a seminar on the New Deal, and it was very interesting. What happened, the truth was the American economy came out of its slump not because of Roosevelt's programmes but because of the war. Like if you really want to jump start the economy get into a decent sized war with somebody. Keys said two years ago that if you want to look at things in reality rather than fantasy the best you could hope for between now and the end of the century is a 1% increase in employment every year. It seems that there is between 35%, 40%, maybe up to 50% of people unemployed in the formal sector, that it wouldn't even make a dent, it would do nothing. So the question is, where do the jobs come from? To embark on an ambitious housing programme where does the money come from so people can buy their houses? Can there be an economic future when the rate of growth of the economy is always exceeded by the rate of growth of the population? And if you accept those things, where do the resources come from to finance the very ambitious intent of the RDP?
HG. Well the answer must be found elsewhere. Now when you talk about population and about employment in the context of the socio-economic system in the country, when Keys talks about stability, stability for big business, those are the obvious responses. You make profits and when you are gainfully employed it makes it necessary for that period, it becomes a surplus of labour and the country becomes over-populated. But when you are able to establish labour then there is no over population, so that population in fact relates to the economic system in your country. The methods we are going to try, we are told that the capitalist system is the only God-given system on earth. I don't want to debate that because it is as much of a myth as many other myths, because capitalism is also a stage, there have been other systems and now it only comes to South Africa, capitalism doesn't answer all our questions, then we look for another system. What you must say is, what is right for this country? We should look for that. There will be a lot of capitalism but we will also have a lot of control ...
POM. So you would think that eventually the form of government here is going to evolve towards socialism?
HG. No, not this government, because the ANC is not a socialist organisation. It is a multi-class organisation. It will depend on which class, it will have to depend on that. As far as the ANC is concerned it is against racial discrimination, national oppression, freedom to do what you think is best for you. Then you get people in COSATU who joined the Communist Party. I say, yes, this is good, but it is not the complete answer Yes, this is good, on the question of the land, of no land. So that all these interests will come into play and we can depend on what interests dominate.
POM. So that means that as time goes on that a lot of tensions will develop within the ANC itself as workers start demanding higher wages?
HG. There is no doubt about that.
POM. And the government says we can't afford it, we've got to be competitive with the people in Taiwan.
HG. Let us take the example of the Afrikaner in this country. It was a poor farmers' organisation but in the course of time it abandoned the poor farmers and fell under the control of the big Afrikaner capitalists to a point now where if there were no elections in this country, there had been a vote among the whites themselves, and they were able to reach that agreement, apartheid, and suppress the course of living of the black people in order to appease their own people, it is obvious that the Population Registration Act ... and remove that when that was in shambles. That is why they were even thinking of annexing ... because they had to go out and find more money and ... In South Africa now where these problems will arise and find the best solution, housing, jobs and schooling, a better life. People have been waiting for a better system that would lead to the Afrikaners.
POM. I suppose my problem is that I can see the need for houses, the need for schooling, the need for jobs, the need for you name it, for water, for sewerage systems, electricity, and these are all basic services. My question is where are the resources going to come from that will finance it?
HG. What is the biggest question? You can't only depend on the taxpayers by arranging taxes as we have in this country. The state too must be a participant in generating money. Now the state must participate in some form of production, like ESCOM, like SASOL, like Railways & Harbours.
POM. Do you see the government ... and use the money to finance ...?
POM. But do you think that would be sufficient or will the country be reliant on foreign aid?
HG. The loans are so small today that there is so much dependency that we can't do that. We are dependent on both the east and west just as they are dependent on us. Look at Japan. Japan now is one of the leading countries today, electronics, etc., but dependent on one another. We would need other people to, we need investment.
POM. Do you think that's why the government takes such a moderate tone, like any radical views towards rationalisation of the Railways?
HG. That's one but basically the government of the ANC, the government of national unity, and they have got to tread very carefully. Look at MK, there is certain dissatisfaction but because we are concerned with this unity, this state of transition, we can't have radical changes otherwise you'll upset the apple cart. I think that is the biggest problem.
POM. Just on that question, I have been out of the country for three months and coming back and reading back issues of newspapers and magazines and newsletters and whatever, the picture that emerged was pretty grim. You had SDU units in the Transvaal or the Eastern Transvaal, marauding gangs, taxi wars, a hell of an increase in crime. I think the Sunday Times said that a serious crime was committed every 17 seconds. You had Mandela saying that the police had declared war on the ANC. You had the police saying they couldn't bring the level of crime under any kind of control. You had wildcat striking, blocking the downtown, even the other day at the airport where traffic controllers simply went on strike. And one gets the feeling that the country is slowly sliding towards anarchy.
HG. That is the impression many people want to create here for their own ends. Once you say that you are saying in other words, these people can't do it, then you set up a dictatorship. It is a kind of a dictatorship.
POM. Do you think there are elements, how seriously now would you take the threat of the right wing?
HG. It is very, very difficult. When I appeared with various members and if you look at all the dictators, Hitler, Mussolini, they didn't start as huge organisation. Invariably they started with racism and anarchy in the country and they are going to come up with a solution because those people have set up the government in power ...
POM. Sorry, could you say that again. The people voted for?
HG. Not because they loved him but rather ... And in this country they want to make it so difficult for the ANC to deliver. It will resort to all sorts of anarchist methods of trying to have strikes but even if you go for elections people will be fed up with the ANC. They won't vote for DP or IFP or NP because they love those parties, but because they are voting against ANC, that is always a danger. They must incorporate the ANC government. People hailed Atlee in 1945 they thought Churchill of war was not Churchill of peace. Then they had enough of the Labour Party and they voted them out and brought back Churchill. The same will happen here.
POM. In your constituency around here, what's the feedback from the grassroots. Are they getting impatient at the lack of delivery, or do they say, well the new government has to learn how to govern?
HG. Very impatient. I live in Edenvale, at times we go without water for more than a fortnight and electricity is just going bananas there. And then they say, you are the government, you said you were going to put all these things down, what are you doing? We want one rural area ... you've been in power for the past three months, what are you doing about this, everything here? And it is frustration rather than impatience.
POM. I think I talked earlier, one of the frustrations I found among a number of the regional Premiers was the fact that the government hadn't devolved power down to them and therefore they couldn't do their jobs, so they can't address problems on the ground like you are talking about, like water, electricity.
HG. It's not the whole story. Assuming they had all those powers, where do they find the money? You can talk about having powers but then it's only the powers which you have and the means to apply those powers. I give you the city to run, it involves money, run the city, what do you do? No money. You say construct this road from here to Durban, no money. So what do they say? we don't have power. What do you do with the power?
POM. Exactly what you said applies to the RDP. Terrific in theory.
HG. When I was in prison I was reading an American publication, ... was found in the same position, so they are making their own chapters, their own price and what you will. So RDP on paper. Then they start saying, no, RDP is a philosophy to make you self-sufficient, do things on your own, then you know.
POM. Do you think that one of the legacies of apartheid is one of a culture of entitlement? That the people were told to make the towns ungovernable and they did and they were told to withhold rents, and they did, and they were told to withdraw their payments for water and electricity and services which they did, and so a large number of people were receiving these services freely over the years and now they are told, pay up. So the first tangible thing they would get from the new government would be that their standard of living would go down, not go up because they were paying for things they weren't paying for before. Do you think this is a problem that people would not easily turn around and start paying for things they have had for years for nothing?
HG. That goes a very long way to trying to find an answer to the present problem, but add to this the fact that in those days we were very busy, marching ... And you didn't have time to go into these theoretical issues. When do you boycott? When do you work? When do you toyi-toyi? We didn't have time to go into these theoretical problems, because if you did all that people would say you are not the government. So you've got to pay for what you get, you have got to be engaged in reconstruction. It's the same old thing and it goes both ways, it's not going to change. When it comes to the political level of our youth, there's a lot of work to do because they cannot understand why when we were fighting the apartheid system, now you become the government, you expect the people now they must participate in what the government is doing but they are adopting a negative attitude so that it becomes a political problem.
POM. You think the government has been negative?
HG. No, no, the people. Civil servants, everyone, nurses, teachers, everyone. Teachers say we want so much increase and the government says, but we have not sufficient money, then we know there is going to be trouble. And they should be the last people to say that because at least they teach economics and so on. When the government says there is no money, there is no money.
POM. So in a sense then does a considerable amount of the population, is alienated from the government but don't feel they are part of the RDP, they have got no ownership in it. How does the government go about creating that sense of ownership? I mean for the elections they at least came out with a media campaign on how important it was to vote and how you voted and what voting stood for, there was some kind of generalised voter education that made you a part of the process.
HG. We had a General Council meeting on Saturday. Many people asked us a question, Inkatha has been going around and celebrating victory; the ANC won nationally but you haven't come back to us.
POM. The ANC hasn't been back. They are just preoccupied with their government.
HG. When you come to look at it, alright, it's democratic, but not all that way because you are dealing with people standing in their own constituencies and if those people are elected they are not known by anybody. There is a package of all sorts of things, oranges, potatoes, what are they doing for us? Lemons, many people want to go for potatoes and they find onions there. Because I was elected, the constituency that proposed me, and I haven't gone canvassing, all these canvassers for the ANC, and many of these people who were elected are detested by the people. That is a real problem, make no mistake about that, be very sure about it, the problem is there. As a result these people are not used to consulting, getting a mandate, some of them have not been in any way associated with some kind of employment. Do you think that will suddenly change? Not in our life.
POM. Going back to the Premiers, Popo Molefe, whom I have a good deal of respect for, and I had a meal with him last time I was in Mmabatho, and I asked people where his residence was, they didn't say where the Premier lived, they said it's the South African Embassy. Even that hasn't changed.
HG. I'm not surprised.
POM. The compound, stretches for miles, there are 16 residences, and the contrast with where he used to live, he used to live in Alexandra, you wonder how people deal with the change in their circumstances.
HG. Most change, it must not be conceptualised, because if you take a man like Popo Molefe who has never been associated with the people of North West then there comes the problem because he must be someone known to the people, nominated by the people. You might find that it's not the only place that's like that. Now these are the problems that are facing us today.
POM. If you had to rate the national government on a scale of one to ten where one would indicate a very unsatisfactory performance and ten a very, very satisfactory performance, how would you rate it after seven months?
HG. In the present circumstances I would say up to now, particularly the leadership up there in the central government, they have done fairly well, but where we didn't do well in the elections, like in Natal, there is stagnation more or less. Remember our people ... consisting of all parties who went to East Griqualand, Kokstad, over the question of the border there, then people have a problem because it is said it is Inkatha, because the previous ones were members of IFP, you can't blame the people because you want to incorporate ...
POM. How would you assess the nature of the relationship between the ANC and the IFP at this point over the role that traditional leaders should play in government?
HG. The lowest point.
POM. The lowest?
HG. We have reached the point where relations should be normalised. When they force that bill and it was ... in this legislative assembly ...
POM. How does that ...?
HG. ... the status of an ordinary chief.
POM. Reducing the status of the King?
HG. To an ordinary chief, and they are elevating Buthelezi into a position of the leader, a minister.
POM. So this is the same IFP that was trying to elevate the status of the King during CODESA, saying there is only one king, and now trying to?
HG. That's right. There's not one king now because at that time the King was the puppet of Buthelezi. When the King tried to stand on his own ... but Buthelezi was not very pleased.
POM. Do you think that rift between the King and Buthelezi could have serious consequences?
HG. Buthelezi, but if that is a tribal organisation, now the role of tribal chiefs, and the Chief comes between the King and Buthelezi and ...
POM. But could it escalate into conflict?
HG. That is depending on what the IFP does because people have never gone out to fight the monarchy. On the other hand ...
POM. So the Truth Commission, to what extent do you think it's going to investigate and should it be prosecutorial or just find the truth before they can wipe the slate of the past clean?
HG. There is so much that has been hidden in this country, but unless the people know what happened it can remain hidden and people will not know who is who, so that the Truth Commission is intended to put things on the table so that people will know what happened.
POM. That's a very, very broad frame of reference and a very specific one.
HG. I don't know how they are going to arrange that but they should be broad enough to get into the bottom of what happened in our country.
POM. Do you think ... how to get at the truth? Say if I am accused of something and there is evidence that would implicate me in a crime and I say, well I'll tell you what it means but it will implicate him, him and him, General this, Minister that, Minister of the other, and he will sell people rather than go for one person because there is no evidence that they were actually involved.
HG. I think the idea is that you want get to the truth, indemnify people, you're not going to prosecute them. So they should accept that, they should not be afraid of a prosecution that might follow.
POM. Do you think the National Party, the higher level of the security forces, want to undermine the government, don't want to accept that the old days are over and the majority shall rule?
HG. I think that the Nationalist Party as a party is divided on the issue. There are those who think that we must try to work together for the sake of the country but in any party or organisation there are elements who not only want the status quo but ...Then there are those people who are intelligent enough to understand that change is inevitable, that we must work towards it so that perish with change, that change accommodates them.
POM. General Buchner used to be head of the KwaZulu Police. He was involved in organising hit squads.
HG. There is no doubt about that, no doubt about that. He has already been cited in some of these things.
POM. Thanks for the time. Do you think that Mandela is the glue that holds this whole thing together and that he has achieved a level of both moral authority and stature nationally and internationally that if anything he has been over-relied upon to sell, specifically by his ministers.
HG. Dullah Omar?
POM. No, Mandela. Do you think he is the glue that makes this thing work?
HG. Mandela is a very solid man, let me put it that way, a man of intellect. He means well for his country and if he gets into his own heart it is to get ... he is going to do well for his country. As a statesman he tries to be as pragmatic as possible.
POM. If he were to quit or die, would there be any kind of a struggle within the ANC as to his succession or would he pull rank?
HG. It's a very old organisation. Some organisations when then break up into factions, great leaders, very great leaders with enormous ... the first President, one of the greatest Presidents of the African National Congress, now that man was Oliver Tambo. ...
POM. You think the economy is now in better shape or worse shape than when the government took over?
HG. I am no economist but I know ... in 1988 when I came out of prison ...
POM. There's all the talk about a gravy train to the point that The Sowetan wrote, "The salaries ministers and MPs are paying themselves are extremely high when seen against what ordinary people are earning and is one of the reasons for the wave of industrial unrest." Now with the commission established by the National Party government which recommended ... that the ANC would come in and say, OK let's take these higher salaries, without recognising that it would have an immediate impact on the constituents on the ground.
HG. It would make no difference because if you take the total economy of the country the salaries we pay to the MPs and Cabinet ministers will not effect the economic conditions. It's just a drop in the ocean. I am told that chieftains of industry get much more, not only chieftains of industry but ...
POM. How do you deal with that question? You want affirmative action, you want blacks in some of the key positions to ensure that people in high positions are not undermining government policy, and yet the government talks about eliminating 200,000 jobs, that everyone has been guaranteed their job, and the government is committed to reducing the budget from 21% of GDP to 17%. Now are these contradictory?
HG. They are. Let's start with colours now. I think that while we want black people to do the affirmative action, to be put in positions of responsibility, because knowledge and commitment are going to be important, there should be clearly a black who is taking up an opportunity and many blacks, many have not. So I think affirmative action must be looked at in a most practical matter and we must not be idealistic about it.
POM. So what would you favour?
HG. I would favour, because there are many white aristocrats there who should not be there, I think of replacing them with more efficient people whether they are black or white. But in order for change to be visible I would encourage people in the black population groups not only because they are black but because we want to make everyone realise that we are in the process of change. I would hate to say it's people of the right person, we must pay for the right person, a black person, because it would be apartheid in reverse. There are many opportunities in this country, we have had many skilled people.
POM. The PAC their performance in the last election was point two percent of the vote. What happened?
HG. They developed too much opportunism. When we are talking about one settler one bullet, then they were not talking about the conditions in South Africa. They were only talking about black socialism and all that, they were not talking about South African conditions. People must be very pragmatic and realistic, but they won't wish away white people in this country. We must take into account one very important thing, that is how can we develop our own South Africa. The PAC thought, even in the Transkei where they thought they would do well, they did very badly.
POM. What role do you think traditional leaders should play in the local government structure?
HG. I think the traditional leaders should look at the interests of those who are traditionalistic and help people to devolve the people in the process of developing the country in the countryside. They must come along on the question of roads, electrification, water, farming, they must come along and participate in those things.
POM. If you were to make an assessment of the last seven months, it has been a learning period more than anything else, what do you think has been its most significant accomplishment?
HG. It's a very difficult question because there are a number of things, one of them is there in the central government, they would have to look at the bills they have passed and there are those bills are going to change things in this country. Look at the regions, what have they done? They have accomplished one thing ...
POM. Can we come back to the question of how people live? Do you think people in townships, we've been taken on tours, the leaders now leave them feeling very resentful, feel that they were living the way their oppressors used to live in high style and luxury, in BMWs and houses and escorts and what have you?
HG. I don't think people are ... I think the overwhelming majority of the people, not only of the townships, have cleared the way. If you talk about a car now, a car is only that means of movement or transport, ... it's now a motor car, so if you can own one it makes things easier for you. Owning a house now and you get a big house, are you going to be able to maintain that house? Where you find people living in hovels, it makes people very bitter when they see all that. I think our people want to have ... bring electricity, water and roads. There are those now who try to own ... you must have what you need, not what is just handed to you.
POM. That's a nice note to end on. Thank you very much. I'll be back again in six months.