About this site

This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.

20 Aug 1993: Makwetu, Clarence

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POM. Mr Makwetu, at the United Nations last year you said you can prove that there's genocide of the African people in South Africa. The attempt to reduce the African population which [takes place in the ... against massacre of ... people West and Eastern Europe ...] which must be stopped. Would you elaborate briefly on that statement?

CM. Well, what I meant is that instead of the regime developing the local people, in other words making them skilled, they are bringing in whites from Eastern Europe under the pretence that they need skills. Whereas we know that what they are up to is to swell their numbers. In the meantime our people are being killed, they are dying in thousands, not because they are fighting each other but because they are being killed. We say they are being killed because if the regime wanted to stop violence they could have done that long, long ago. Instead they are fanning the violence. They've brought into our country mercenaries in the form of Buffalo Battalion 32 and 31, the Koevoets, the Selous Scouts, remnants of Renamo, on top of their secret hit-squads, the CCBs, Askaris, plus the SADF and the SAP. The question is, our country is not threatened by any foreign invader so why the mercenaries and if these people were told they are not responsible for the violence their profession is to kill. They are being paid, fed, housed by the regime. For what purpose other than killing? Only a few weeks ago 21 were mowed down near Germiston. I'm almost certain that the murderers didn't know the political affiliations of those people. If these people are IFP or Inkatha Freedom Party how did the murderers know to which group they belonged? Hence I say that our people are being reduced, the numbers are being reduced.

POM. Do you think this is an active policy of the regime?

CM. ... if it was not the act ...

POM. Of President De Klerk?

CM. If it was not his policy why can't he stop it? He's got all the means. He's got all the facilities.

POM. Negotiations now have been going on for three years at the World Trade Centre. Where do you think these negotiations are leading? And do you think they'll lead to an interim government, that there'll be a Transitional Executive Council, there'll be an interim government, that there'll be a Constituent Assembly which will draft a new constitution for the whole country?

CM. Well, it's difficult for me to say they are going to lead to such and such. When we met the regime on the bilateral basis, that is last time in Gaborone, we made it clear to them that we in PAC would like to see voters' registration being embarked upon and the next thing to discuss the process leading to an establishment of a Constituent Assembly. What is happening at the World Trade Centre is different to that.

POM. It's different?

CM. Yes, it's different. What we mean is that certain parties want to clinch deals even before the constitution is drawn. In other words the Constituent Assembly we are talking about is regarded as a 'rubber stamp' to rubber stamp decisions that are decided upon by people who have no mandate to take those decisions.

POM. The Government and the ANC seem to have struck a deal with each other between September last year and January of this year and they've made a major decision, so to speak, and that this where the rubber stamping of decisions comes in?

CM. The TEC is not a decision taken by the Patriotic Front. It emerged from CODESA and from other parties at the World Trade Centre right now.

POM. If the TEC comes into existence would the PAC serve on it?

CM. No. We won't be party to it.

POM. Will the PAC contest the elections?

CM. Definitely. We demanded elections.

POM. When you talk about the concept that is used, the concept of coming to consensus and which is generally seen to mean that when the government and the ANC agree on something that a consensus exists and do you believe that the consensus of the PAC should also be allowed for?

CM. Of course there is no consensus at the World Trade Centre. What is done there is merely to impose decisions, decided upon by the regime and the African National Congress. In fact on the concept of consensus we were opposed at CODESA, that's one of the reasons why we stayed away from CODESA. And strangely enough it was supported by the IFP then. To us it's an irony now that they have decided to take the process to court for a concept that they accepted at CODESA.

POM. The truth of it is that the PAC will stop the 'sell out deals', the process of selling out began when Mandela was still in prison. What sell out did you believe the ANC is selling out on liberation for Africans and some kind of compromise deal?

CM. Both the UN consensus document and the Harare Declaration make it clear, absolutely clear, that the issue of sanctions should not be on until a constitution is in place. What Mandela is doing now is definitely what Patricia says. Even the rushing of this Bill through parliament is clear that even to a fool that the intention is to mislead the international community into believing that the TEC is in place and a TEC which is not an equivalent of the interim government. That is understood by the international body, but simply because they want to please the regime, they have deals with the regime, now they are assisting the regime in entrenching its power.

POM. When you look at where, say, the ANC and the government were last June and where they are today, whom do you think has made the most concessions?

CM. It is the ANC.

POM. The ANC has?

CM. Yes.

POM. Particularly in regard to what specifically? What would you point to?

CM. The points that I've indicated already.

POM. The whole concept of the TEC.

CM. The sanctions.

POM. How about the issue of a unitary state?

CM. Both. We are not clear whether they are for a federal state or a unitary state. We are the people who are for a unitary state.

POM. You are for a unitary state?

CM. Yes.

POM. (What about APLA?)

CM. APLA is the military wing of the PAC. We know of no struggle between APLA and the PAC. I say we know of no struggle between the PAC and APLA.

POM. So if the PAC were to order APLA to desist from all military activities would APLA be politically bound to abide by that?

CM. We've demonstrated already that that is possible. When the regime insisted that they would not talk with us in Gaborone until APLA men were there, who brought them all the way from Dar es Salaam?

POM. What do you see happening in the next year? Do you see the TEC coming into being, you won't participate in it, the IFP won't participate in it, the Conservative Party won't participate in it, Ciskei won't participate it. Do you think the conditions are being created where you can have free and fair elections next year?

CM. That rests entirely on De Klerk. If he wants to bring an end to violence to this country he can do so immediately but by the look of things he seems not interested in that.

POM. So what's his strategy in promoting the violence?

CM. We are not involved in violence. PAC is not involved in violence.

POM. So what is the purpose, strategy?

CM. I wouldn't know of his strategy really.

POM. But what do you think he's after?

CM. Well, I've already indicated he is after prolonging the agony, he's after seeing to it that the whites remain supreme in this country. He's just bluffing the world to say that he's doing something. He's not doing anything about changes. [He's just reforming our ...] And we are not going to assist him in doing that. We are ready to assist him in getting rid of apartheid [and that is not his problem]. In fact, the very statement he made in February 1990 indicated to us that he was not for bringing an end to apartheid when he said that those in power do not want to withdraw apologetically from the political scene. And that statement was confirmed later by Pik Botha where he said that the mandate that they got from their constituency was for power sharing and anything different from that they'll have to go back to seek a fresh mandate. So what is happening at the World Trade Centre right now is power-sharing and we in PAC are not interested in that.

POM. But if there were a Constituent Assembly and an interim government would you take part in the Constituent Assembly but not in the interim government?

CM. The Constituent Assembly will decide who is going to rule the country. So the interim government or TEC or whatever will have to be decided by the Constituent Assembly.

POM. But De Klerk at the moment says parties that get 5% in the election would have a seat in the Cabinet and assuming you'd get more than 5% ...?

CM. We are not interested in being co-opted into the set-up.

POM. So what is the PAC strategy?

CM. It is to fight the election and to win. That is our strategy.

POM. Do you believe the PAC has sufficient strengths?

CM. That will be proved by the ballot.

POM. Like it doesn't show up in surveys.

CM. That is true because the media is against us. There's a campaign against us and this I can prove.

POM. Could you elaborate a bit on that?

CM. Yes. Only recently I had to address a rally in Cape Town. Two weeks earlier we sent two of our National Executive members to go and prepare for that rally. On their arrival they invited journalists from all the newspapers in the country into a hall. And the journalists packed that hall but the following day there was not a single sentence about that press conference in the newspapers. What would you call that? What did those journalists go there for? And we have information that they were stopped by the [SAS?] That they don't want any PAC in their newspapers. So it's obvious even to a fool that there is a campaign against us.

POM. Is there is a campaign more or less to demonise you in some way?

CM. Yes, exactly, exactly. And even about this issue of "One settler, one bullet" we are ready to discuss it. But the regime wants the situation to continue so that we are demonised. We have said time and again to them that we are prepared to discuss cessation of hostilities, mutual cessation of hostilities. They are evading that issue.

POM. Are your conditions that they must meet, the cessation of violence ...?

POM. And what about this group called The Watch Dogs? It's put by the Weekly Mail that the Watch Dogs are implacably opposed to the PAC being present at the World Trade Centre [and it has proposed the Constituent Assembly]. What the Watch Dogs are saying is that every black politician at the WTC deserves a bullet including the PAC leadership. Every negotiator there who came to represent the African is the betrayer of our struggle and that if shots are fired at you they would just murder you.

CM. We don't take them seriously. If they were serious they have every right to attend our meetings or go to our conferences and put their cases. What we are doing there at the World Trade Centre is a conference decision arrived at democratic level.

POM. Was your participation there a conference decision?

CM. Yes.

POM. And the positions on taking a place at the TEC was from conference decision?

CM. Well, what we are saying at the World Trade Centre is what is the mandate we got from three conferences since unbanning.

POM. Say there is no election and there is a constitution drawn up and there is an interim government, what do you see happening in the country? Like what's your vision of what would happen if that scenario took place so that the killing in the townships continued, if the IFP and Buthelezi's death process continued as civil war in Natal? Do you think they are capable of starting a civil war?

CM. The IFP?

POM. Mmm.

CM. If they were that strong why are they afraid of elections? Why don't they go for elections? They claim to have no less than seven million behind them. We don't boast of a million. Which means they would swamp the roads. We doubt very much if they have that capacity to start a civil war. If they had that capacity why don't they crash the African National Congress? They've been fighting all along.

POM. Do you think that you can have a stable democratic and peaceful South Africa if one, the IFP, Buthelezi, the possible government of the IFP remain as at the process; two, how would your relation be to the new government structures? Would you be there as an opposition party fighting for the principles and things that you believe in?

CM. Yes, that is if we lose the election. But we are confident to win the election. We talk to everybody. We talk to Inkatha Freedom Party, in fact we are planning a meeting again to travel to Ulundi to talk with them. We have no problem with Inkatha.

POM. If you say you've no problem that means you've no political problem with them or ...?

CM. We're are not fighting.

POM. So if there were a new power-sharing government that was proposed, largely as members of the National Party and the ANC, but let's assume this at the moment the ANC, would you still regard yourself at the war with that government since it contains or it will contain members of the government that were oppressing you?

CM. Of course we will oppose that set up. We are fighting for our land and that land is still in the hands of the oppressor. In other words the struggle can't stop until we attain our goal.

POM. So the armed struggle would in fact continue?

CM. It depends what the conditions will be.

POM. Leadership's current issue talks about your land redistribution agenda and it says the PAC's, and the land redistribution agenda like the Pan Africanist's, is a ... of romantic ideas that is never going to be implemented. All seem to have been rooted traditional African thinking and indicate turning away from the modern world and in some ways the PAC have much more in common with some of the equally isolationist, Africanistic and romantic ideas, then we should maybe offer them an African homeland.

CM. Can you explain to me what is an African homeland?

POM. That would be an Afrikaner homeland, sorry.

CM. Oh. Well, we have no intention of De Klerk carving pieces of this country to various groupings. As far as we are concerned Africans are the aborigines of Africa and all those who owe their allegiance only to Africa and are prepared to abide by the rule of African majority, the question of colour does not come in at all, so whoever now is prepared to abide by such an arrangement will be regarded as an African. So there won't be any need to have an Afrikaner homeland or a KwaZulu/Natal area.

POM. But your land programme calls for a large scale redistribution of land.

CM. Definitely. Eighty-seven percent is in the hands of hardly 30% of the population.

POM. Do you think this is THE issue that is not being addressed?

CM. Of course.

POM. At the World Trade Centre?

CM. Yes. Anyway we hope it will be addressed at the Constituent Assembly.

POM. That programme of redistribution takes place through compensation or without compensation?

CM. It will depend on those who own the land at the moment. We may be forced to expropriate some of the land and that is nothing new in this country. This has happened in the past, we have suffered through such an arrangement and the world was never up in arms against the regime for doing that. We see no reason why when an African majority is in power that cannot apply.

POM. I remember last year Moseneke saying to me at the time that the PAC probably had more in common with the SACP than the ANC. Would you say the same?

CM. Well, it's difficult to say. I don't know the policy of the SACP.

POM. Well, in terms of bringing it into being a socialist state, the kind of state you'd envisage?

CM. Do you think they're serious?

POM. Hmm?

CM. Do you think they are serious?

POM. That the SACP are serious?

CM. I mean you wouldn't find liberals in the SACP if they were serious. As far as we are concerned we don't believe that they are communists.

POM. You don't believe they're communists?

CM. No. They are just misleading the poor African people who work with them.

POM. But the PAC would like to see the socialist state, a unitary state?

CM. Yes.

POM. With radical redistribution of land, number one.

CM. I wouldn't call it radical redistribution of land.

POM. Redistribution of land to take care of the great imbalance that exists, and of redistribution of the resources that would also compensate for the imbalances. My question would be, in those circumstances it's most unlikely that foreign capital would be attracted to South Africa and most studies that I've looked at by economists say that South Africa needs an in-flow of about R100 billion in the next ten years in order to stabilise the rate of growth.

CM. That would show the double standards that the international community has against the African people. Despite the atrocities committed by the racist regime they have been working with the regime. Now, when the African people take over and bring about changes you are telling me that they are going to adopt an attitude of squeezing us? It shows the double standards that they have against the African people.

POM. What predictions - I mean, how do you get the economy jump-started? I mean for the last ten years per capita income has been declining and there's been a negative rate of growth. What turned this around?

CM. Well, I'm not a prophet. It is not for me to say this we shall do to force the world to do that. We are here to put our house in order and this is the manner in which we want to put that house in order.

POM. If you won the elections, how would you deal with the issue of the security forces? Or do you think that there would be a possibility of a truce in the right wing?

CM. Well, unfortunately I'm not a military man. That could be analysed by military people; we have them.

POM. But would you say, could you allow for the possibility of a coup, an attempted coup by the right?

CM. Who would ever allow a coup. Nobody ever allows a coup. You don't have to ask permission to stage a coup, to begin with.

POM. Would that be a Koevoet, be an attempt ...?

CM. What attempt?

POM. - by the right wing and its allies to prevent you from governing the country?

CM. Well, if they use force we have no alternative to use force.

POM. Do you see the right wing as playing another role beside being any other kind of a threat? [they're making ... last year..]

CM. Well, it's difficult for me because they're allowed by the regime to go about carrying arms, etc., which means they are being encouraged. We would not encourage that.

POM. And if there's an ANC in terms of what is now called a government of national unity, do you see a stable and peaceful South Africa emerging after the unity?

CM. It's very difficult for me to say yet.

POM. But you'll be an opposition to it?

CM. Definitely.

POM. Even in terms an armed struggle?

CM. If our interests are not being addressed why should we stop struggling against the people who are oppressing us?

POM. I want to hear you correctly. [You are saying that if there's an ANC could ... the NP/IFP government that you would not only remain in power ... of position but that you would continue the armed struggle because...]

CM. Do you envisage a situation where the elections will be conducted in this country whilst people are still fighting?

POM. So you don't think there'll be an election?

CM. How can there be an election when people are fighting?

POM. What you are saying is that there will be no free and fair elections?

CM. I think I've put my case clear now because I say if fighting goes on there can't be any elections.

POM. So you see the cessation of violence between the ...?

CM. That will be the first thing.

POM. If that doesn't happen there can't be, there will no be elections?

CM. How can there be elections when we are fighting each other?

POM. Do you think the competition between the ANC and the IFP is the main element of the violence that goes on?

CM. I wouldn't say it's competition. As far as we are concerned they are being used.

POM. They are both being used? The ANC is being misused?

CM. If you go to these people who are fighting and ask them why they are fighting, they don't know why they are fighting. So how can you call that competition when the very people fighting don't know what they are fighting for?

POM. When you look at yourself and the ANC being two of the most prominent African organisations how do you identify your points of commonality? Do you agree on the points of difference?

CM. Well we agreed on the question of the Constituent Assembly. I don't know whether they still cherish those ideals. Because when Patricia de Lille said that the date of election should be linked to the Constituent Assembly nobody supported that, including the ANC. Everybody was just quiet at the World Trade Centre. So I'm no longer certain whether they are for the Constituent Assembly.

POM. So that's one potential point of difference. How do you think they could be against it? I mean it's one of things that has been on their agenda since the Harare Declaration?

CM. Jesus, that was in 1989, this is 1993. I'm saying we met in 1991 in October in Durban and we agreed on certain issues and what brought us together there was the conception of a Constituent Assembly. But I'm quoting you an instance now to show that they've moved away from that position.

POM. Could you tell me some other issues in which you then had joint agreement on which the ANC seemed to have moved away from?

CM. In Durban we said when we meet the regime we must meet as one group so that we confront them with one voice. They did not stick to that when we met as a Patriotic Front.

POM. As a Patriotic Front?

CM. That was the position of the Patriotic Front. But when we met the regime now at CODESA we were divided already. We were no longer acting as a Front. When we challenged the question of the chairmanship by the judges they saw nothing wrong in that.

POM. So do you think the ANC has altered since those days or that this is playing out of the way the organisation has always been operating?

CM. Well, as far as we are concerned they are no longer on those positions that we had arrived at in Durban.

POM. Do you see it now, in terms of the way you are talking, as a movement that believes in democracy or as a movement that believes in just getting its hands on the reins of power?

CM. If they were for democracy they would not be supporting the decisions that are being taken at the World Trade Centre because as far as we are concerned they are not democratic decisions.

POM. That is decision taken at the World Trade Centre?

CM. Yes. The decisions taken at the World Trade Centre are not democratically arrived at. You enumerated a number of groupings that are not for what is taking place there. Why were their points of view not considered if we are talking of democracy?

POM. So you believe that the IFP is pleased that the definition of sufficient consensus was very one-sided, was correct?

CM. I wouldn't say it was one-sided because I indicated earlier that when we opposed this idea at CODESA the IFP was for this thing. So it is ridiculous now to see them now taking this process to court for a decision that they had endorsed earlier.

POM. So how do you ideally like to see the negotiations proceed?

CM. Well, I have explained my position.

POM. How can you - that would be a kind of totally inclusive ...?

CM. We agitated for that. As a result we brought all the various groupings that you see at the World Trade Centre. That was our argument. That was our contention all along that the set-up at CODESA was exclusive; this has been our position, [hence we are at the ...] otherwise we wouldn't be at the World Trade Centre today.

POM. Did your party draw more on young people than say the ANC?

CM. We draw all sections of the population.

POM. Or do you draw more from that sector that's called the disillusioned or the lost generation of the youth than say the ANC would?

CM. Well I know of no lost generation in our country.

POM. But the generation does recall those generations.

CM. Well they may be called that but as far as we are concerned they are not lost. They wouldn't be working with us if they were lost. Not unless the implication is that the PAC is lost.

POM. Yet why are you so sure that if there's an election that the PAC will win? Quite a number of surveys have been carried out and not with metropolitan areas but all areas as well.

CM. I don't want to quarrel with the surveys.

POM. Pardon?

CM. I say I do not want to quarrel with the surveys but there's one thing that is interesting with the surveys. Whom do they interview to arrive at these decisions? For instance, the bulk of the population has no TV, the bulk of very few people have even the radio, for that matter. And it's even worse with telephones. The researchers, they phone these people and ask their opinions and they take these opinions to be authentic. So instead, we go to the people, we go to the people. We know what the people want.

POM. Do you think, again, if a new government comes into power whatever its nature, comes into being and a level of expectations of the people from that government will be so high that that government can never satisfy the expectations within four or five-year period?

CM. I don't get your question.

POM. That people have expectations there's going to be a new government. It's going to be either a black majority government or government of national unity in which Africans are a majority and now people have expectations of change in their life, housing, education, electricity, whatever commodities, services in general. Do you think their expectations are at such a high level that the government would be unable to deliver services or meet these expectations?

CM. Well, even if there were no expectations no government can be able to cope with what the people demand right now even before elections because of the economy. The economy has been ruined.

POM. But my question is that in many democracies, in countries that are in transition to democracy, it is to be found that if the government comes into being people's expectations are so high the government can't deliver, that people could lose faith in democracy in itself. And in an odd way Russia might be a kind of an example that after the fall of an empire people were free. Rather than things getting better things are worse and many people are missing the good old days of communist rule that at least with all the instability food had arrived.

CM. Well, I wouldn't say they lose confidence of democracy. They lose confidence of the people who are in power. They have their democratic right.

POM. Again, what about that the trick in South Africa is to lose the first election, that the expectations of the people so high that no new government can reach those expectations satisfactorily in four or five years? That in the second election the people will overwhelmingly overthrow the first crowd out and elect those ...

CM. If that was the case the ANC and the regime wouldn't be campaigning vigorously as they are campaigning now.

POM. Yes, I think I know that. What I'm saying is, do you take the promises that they are making to people. Do you think that the government, together they can meet those promises?

CM. Promises have been made even the old democracies and after elections the opposition remains the same. So this will be nothing new in our country. We must expect it.

POM. What do the people who are white expect from a new majority African government?

CM. They have no right to say they should expect this. But what they expect is an African government in an African country.

POM. Do you not think they expect, in terms of housing and schools and jobs and the economy as a whole?

CM. Those are normal expectations. There's nothing strange in that. They must eat, they must live in a house, they must be clothed, that is normal. That is what they are being denied right now.

POM. So if you had to look at the last three years, how have you seen the ANC's tactics and strategies change? How have you seen the government's tactics and strategies change? And how has the PAC itself evolved during that period?

CM. Well, as far as we are concerned there have been no changes whatsoever. We still follow the old policies of PAC as PAC was born in 1959. I have no right to speak on behalf of the other parties.

POM. What's your perception of them? I mean you are not speaking on behalf of them. But you can look at them and say this is what is how they've changed, this is how the ANC has changed, rejected about opposing the Harare Declaration for example.

CM. I don't say they've rejected the Harare Declaration.

POM. They've moved towards - they've moved away from some of the principles ...

CM. Yes.

POM. - of the Harare Declaration. Is that a matter of expedience, for example in 1990 the nationalisation of some basic industries, and not only the basic industries but the mines and whatever, were an integral part of the ANC Charter and today you can't find a member of the ANC mentioning the word nationalisation.

CM. Well, Mandela does mention nationalisation. In fact he has been the champion of nationalisation all along and we never regarded that as ANC policy, that was Mandela's policy.

POM. Mandela's policy?

CM. Yes.

POM. How is your policy in that regard?

CM. I think we have dealt with that question.

POM. But if I quote specific industries, would you nationalise the mines?

CM. Well, we have an economic document on how we view the economy of the country and you seldom see the word nationalisation in that document. I do not say nationalisation can not be embarked upon but it's one of the instruments that can be used.

POM. A year ago or about 18 months ago after the referendum in March, De Klerk was riding the wave of his popularity and not just in the white community but in sections of the black community as well and today he is on the point of losing the bulk of his support particularly as only one out of four voters who voted for him in 1989 would vote for him again today. [Two questions, one, did he ???? white attitudes of that last two years of that rather softening ???? the fighting the purpose of support in his own community as??? declined so dramatically?]

CM. Well, well we are going back to the question of being an imposer because nobody can certainly say his followers have abandoned him until we go for elections. It is only then that it can be safely said that his followers have deserted him.

POM. How about the question of white attitudes? Have any senior administration officials that you know acknowledged that apartheid was not just wrong but was evil and that white community as a whole hold a collective responsibility to address the imbalances and to share the sacrifices that would be required?

CM. If they'd decided that apartheid was evil we wouldn't be witnessing apartheid today, but apartheid is still there.

POM. It's still there.

CM. Yes. It is still is there. Right now as I'm talking to you I don't have the vote, they have the vote.

. Are we still going to be long? Because as I've indicated to you I have engagements. In fact I said it would be half an hour and it's more than half an hour now.

POM. Say, five minutes.

CM. Let's hope it won't be more than five minutes.

POM. OK. This peace process that's being talked about that would comprise the members of the SADF, the MK and all the other organisations, would APLA participate in such peacekeeping force?

CM. No.

POM. Would you regard that as an alien army which is part of the regime?

CM. Well, according to what they've said or written so far the defence force, the SADF, will remain the SADF under the control of the minister, under De Klerk. Which means therefore De Klerk will have the final say, as far as that national peacekeeping force. Until that changes we cannot be party to it.

POM. What impact do you think the assassination of Chris Hani had on the African community and on the political process as a whole?

CM. It showed that the leopard had not changed its colours all along. Because these people were invited to come home only to be slaughtered here, by foreigners. That's the worst part about it. That's why I was saying to you they bring these people from eastern countries not because they are needed, simply because they want to augment their numbers. Here's a man now claiming, simply because he had quarrelled with some communists in Poland he decides to assassinate one of our men.

POM. Would you see the Regime as automatically responsible for this death?

CM. Of course. Why was this man in the first place brought into our country, when we don't have the services we need in this country? Instead of improving the lot of the people here now we decide to bring in people simply because they are white.

POM. There's also specific tasks.

CM. No, we've got skills all over the world. We've got skills right in Africa, they are not brought in here.

POM. Tasks like political tasks from abroad as mercenaries not just as workers.

CM. Well, I wouldn't label him as a mercenary. We have enough mercenaries already.

POM. Again, the question on elections. Let's assume that the violence moved down to a level where you could have elections, do you think elections which would be boycotted by the IFP and all the members of COSAG would be meaningful elections or that they patently must bring about a process where everybody is brought in?

CM. For more than a decade Gatsha has been begged by the regime to accept autonomy and he refused independence while Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Transkei took up independence. His argument being that he wanted to be part of South Africa all along. Now when he is now asked to come and work on a constitution now for everybody in our country he wants autonomy. Do you think that man is serious?

POM. What do you think? He has made that shifting position?

CM. I don't know. I wouldn't speak on his behalf.

POM. But you must have an opinion. I mean the current survey of one of the theories, the many theories that go round is that if Gatsha ... and this is one way of asserting himself trying to make his position special for that.

CM. I wouldn't say he is asserting himself. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a deal between him and the regime that behaving this fashion now is being used as a tool because all along we regarded him as a tool of the regime.

POM. So probably a purpose of disarrangement?

CM. I wouldn't know.

POM. But he would have to do it some way perpetrating the existence of the white regime.

POM. If there is a political transfer of power from the regime to the black majority which is not accompanied by corresponding economic transfer of power does the form of convening this without a second ...?

CM. No it doesn't. Hence we are not fighting for political power.

POM. You are fighting for?

CM. Political and economic otherwise it is not enough if it is just political power, hence the demand for the land as well. Thank you.

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