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This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.

13 Jun 2004: Pillay, Ivan

Click here for more information on the Interviewee

POM. Thanks for taking the time, as always. What I'm really trying to establish here are timelines and then I want to run through the notes that you sent me. So I will be as quick as possible in going through them but I am taking some of this information from Shubin's book. In Shubin's book he reproduces a request from Slovo where he asks Shubin to make travel arrangements to Moscow for you, himself and OR to meet with Mac. You arrive in Moscow on 11 or 12 July, that's according to Shubin.

IP. Yes.

POM. Now what was the purpose of the meeting with Mac? This would have been one week – now the request for the meeting was made in June, the meeting took place about 12 July, that would be one week after Madiba had met with PW Botha and a copy of that letter would have been in the hands of OR because Mac had sent it through.

IP. This is July 1989?

POM. That's right.

IP. OK now my understanding of this, and my memory is not very good, the thing is that I suppose Mac came out of the country then.

POM. Mac had been asked to – the arrangements were made in June so whatever he was coming out for was made in June. So what was the purpose of him coming out?

IP. The purpose of him coming out was that he had been there now quite long and we'd wanted to debrief him. That was one. There was a secondary issue and the secondary issue would have been his wife had quite a bad time, she had that accident.

POM. The previous October, yes.

IP. She was quite traumatised, missing him, the kids were missing him, and things didn't work out very well there. We, of course, wanted to meet with him and talk to him and see how things were but at the same time it would have been great for him to come, for his family to see him, and so that was it. Now the thing is that once he came up and surfaced it would be a bit difficult to arrange the meetings again to debrief him and of course we wanted the earliest opportunity to debrief him.

POM. Now what were you debriefing him on at that point that couldn't be put through in communications using the communication system?

IP. Well look, the communication system was a great advance on anything that we had prior to this but, as you know, there is nothing that could supplant a face to face meeting. The face to face meeting actually would give all of the things that you cannot fully explain in the communication, the context, the interconnections, the feel about things. Somebody with Mac's experience having now been through something like that, that would be a great opportunity to speak to him and speak about those things. So that's the simple explanation of that. And of course we would have to discuss things like now that he's going to surface what would be the legend, what would explain where he has been and what he's been doing in the meantime and all of those things, just to clear up those things, and then talk to him about when did he think he could go back in, what preparations have to be made for that. Then he would have made preparations too for other people to come out of the country for training and all sorts of other things so there's a whole lot of issues that he would bring us up to date on and a whole lot of arrangements that need to be made, all of those things.

POM. OK. Now why did OR ask him to go to Lusaka to the NEC meeting?

IP. I think that came a little bit later I imagine. I think the one thing is that OR wanted to actually meet with him before he goes. I think the second is that I think OR would have valued Mac's experience in meeting with the NEC again and I imagine he would have asked Mac for some input into how does he feel we actually are, where are people in this thing and how big the gaps are and so on. I imagine that it would be that sort of thing. I am not aware that he would actually want Mac to discuss any of his experiences because that would have broken the whole thing.

. I was asked at that time, if my memory now serves me right, to do a report that would set out what Operation Vula's objectives were and what it has done up to now and I did a report, which probably wouldn't even have been called Operation Vula, which in broad terms said this is what we set out to do and this is what we have done.

POM. Now would that have been for OR? Sorry this would have been for?

IP. For the NEC. I don't know if it was discussed up to this day, I don't know if it was discussed, how it was discussed but I provided it and the intention was to put it before the NEC without saying this is Operation Vula and this is Mac and whatever, whatever, whatever.

POM. But the intention would have been to say we have senior people in the country and they are performing the following tasks and they've accomplished this much to date and this is where we hope to go, that kind of report.

IP. That's right.

POM. Now Mac says that at that time and prior to his leaving the country that there were all these rumours about Madiba selling out and that these were also prevalent in Lusaka at that time. Do you have a recollection of there being, not widespread, but ongoing rumours of Madiba's talking to the regime and he's drinking wine and all that kind of stuff, and this was a matter of concern to OR?

IP. Yes, look, I can't remember any great detail but let me say first thing that there were always stories about Madiba long before 1989. One of the first things I ever heard was that Madiba was after all a royal personage and what would one expect of him? So there were always stories as there would always be in situations like that and where we operated underground and with all the tension, there were always stories about him doing such and such, so I don't think that is anything surprising in general but, yes, particularly at that time because now Madiba's comrades had been released for quite some period.

POM. That would just have been Govan Mbeki. This is 1987.

IP. Yes.

POM. Do you recall at the meetings in Moscow any discussion of Madiba's memorandum to PW that preceded his visit?

IP. No I must say I don't remember and I might not have been in all the discussions. That's the other thing. It possibly happened and I would have respected that and I would have expected it, that if they wanted to really discuss very sensitive issues, especially when it came to people who were quite difficult like Govan and so on, they might not have included me. All of these things were tied up with, for example, how different players positioned themselves and I am aware that Govan actually tried to position himself as a real and true revolutionary leader. Govan would, as far as I am aware, try to place himself as a real revolutionary leader.

POM. Was he, and I don't want to put words in your mouth at all, but was he trying to position himself in South Africa as the voice of the ANC?

IP. Yes, Govan and Harry.

POM. Harry, sure, yes. They go together. I forgot.

IP. They were positioning themselves together.

POM. Now back in Lusaka OR has a stroke on 7 August, then he's taken to London on the 15th and there's kind of a gap there. Now Mac meantime makes his way to London, he goes to Brighton, he sees Zarina and the children, and then he goes to Lusaka. Have you any memory of when in fact he arrived in Lusaka for that NEC meeting?

IP. No.

POM. Do you remember whether people were surprised at his sudden appearance after an absence of so much time when he was supposed to be away, hospitalised in the Soviet Union?

IP. Look I guess there were surprises. You must know one thing, I was so busy doing my thing that I didn't really socialise with a hell of a lot of people and the places that we lived in and so on were a bit cut off from the others.

POM. So you're dealing with Vula while Mac is in Brighton and Mac is coming to Lusaka and while he's in Lusaka?

IP. Yes.

POM. Who was in charge, who were you communicating with while Mac was out of the country?

IP. Well Gebhuza would be, I suppose, the next in line, but also by then we sort of had, if I remember now, different sort of area committees; we had a Natal Area Committee and then we had something in the Western Cape and then we had something in the Johannesburg area. So in those areas, those would be the key people but our contact would be filtered through Gebhuza and Janet Love I assume.

POM. But you wouldn't be, how would I put it - so Janet Love would be in Johannesburg and Gebhuza would be in Durban, they would be the only two points through which the system, the communication system worked?

IP. Yes.

POM. That wasn't extended to the Western Cape?

IP. No, but what would have happened is that if there's something that needed to be communicated there, I mean Mac used to then make contact with the people in the Western Cape, I can't remember now, but I imagine that if there was need then Gebhuza would be the one that made the contact.


IP. There's something that I wanted to say to you. One of the things that when Mac did come to Lusaka is that we had a meeting of the Politburo and in keeping with the way we operated we wouldn't want to keep secrets from the Politburo and we did have a meeting in which Mac broadly speaking reported back.

POM. Did Thabo attend that meeting?

IP. Yes I think he was there.

POM. Now did Mac meet with you separately while he was in Lusaka?

IP. Yes.

POM. Just to discuss?

IP. Logistics, lot of logistics.

POM. Now Mac goes back to Brighton.

IP. Yes.

POM. And Mac stays in Brighton. Now he says, one thing, just to go backwards, that in Lusaka it was agreed that Ronnie Kasrils would be the person who would come in. Then he says that at least on the return trip to Lusaka from Brighton that he met with Slovo and Kasrils and then with Kasrils to arrange logistics and legend and things like that. Did you meet with Kasrils at that time?

IP. I met with him, probably talked to him in Lusaka at the time we made the decision and then I met with him in London just before he left.

POM. That would have been when? Do you recall? Let me help you in the sense that Shubin has him leaving Moscow on 20 March.

IP. I actually attended a party in Ronnie's house during that Christmas/New Year period. It would have been December of the previous period.

POM. Can you recall, was Mac at that party?

IP. No.

POM. OK, but Mac was still – do you recall whether Mac was still in the country, in London I mean?

IP. He would have been still in London and he was probably preparing to exit, say to people he's got to go back for his medical and so on.

POM. He says that during his stay in Brighton that there was one major casualty. A message came through that something had happened to the communication system and everything was stopped while this problem was sorted and it turned out to have been that Ronnie Press had heard a voice on the other end of the taped message that came through that was not the same voice. Do you recall that?

IP. No I can't, I honestly can't.

POM. You don't, OK. Mac returns to Brighton and he's in Brighton in November and December. For that period of time he's really out of the loop.

IP. Yes.

POM. So he's out of the loop for the sudden decision, I was in the country at the time, for PW Botha to step down as President. He was out when De Klerk became Acting President and then President in his own right with the elections in September and he was out when Walter Sisulu and the rest of the Rivonia trialists were released, when they got their passports and when they went to Lusaka to meet with the NEC at the beginning of January 1990. So he in effect was not part of Vula during that period, he was living in Brighton?

IP. Yes.

POM. Shubin has him in Moscow on 9 January 1990 on his way home.

IP. Yes.

POM. You have him in Moscow on 2 February when the announcement of the unbanning – now I asked you before, were you sure of that?

IP. Yes, I checked. I am sure.

POM. You are. The thing is that in your notes, in our first conversation you said that OR was there and OR couldn't have been there because –

IP. He'd had a stroke already. Yes. Then it was JS, myself and Mac.

POM. Now there's no doubt about that at all?

IP. Yes. I checked with – you remember I said there were some other ladies there and when I looked at the statement that you sent back to me, let me just correct something, it wasn't the release of Mandela it was the unbanning, and one of the ladies who was present, I phoned her today in fact and she mentioned to me that indeed, yes, she was there in Moscow at that time. These were people Mac had organised within the country to receive training outside.

POM. That's Claudia. I interviewed Claudia, I know she was there in January but was she there on 2 February? Who can testify that – not testify, wrong word, who other than yourself can say that?

IP. Selina.

POM. Selina can, on 2 February? OK. So then Mac would head back, did he say, 'I'm on my way back'?

IP. Yes.

POM. So he would have been back in the country before Madiba was released.

IP. I think so, yes. I can't remember exactly but yes. I mean he was leaving now within days, that's why we were there.

POM. I'm asking this because when he says that when he resigned from the ANC the first time he says that the interim leadership was announced by Slovo and by Nzo and he said this was announced immediately after the unbanning which seems peculiar because Slovo wasn't there and Mac wasn't there. So can you recall what his first resignation was about? He just gets home and suddenly he resigns.

IP. Broadly speaking I think frustration was building up over some time.

POM. Is that because he was in Brighton and out of everything?

IP. No, no. I think the one frustration he had was that once they were inside pulling everything together, they obviously found it a very difficult job to pull things together because we worked in a fragmented way and you continuously had people like Harry and Govan pulling their own way and you had people receiving contradictory or different messages from different parts of the ANC. The one thing that he continuously asked for is that we find a way of coordinating and tying things together. You must understand that by about the mid-eighties already, even before Vula, there was considerable traffic between South Africa and Lusaka and the other places in terms of all the consultation that went on in NUSAS, IDASA, there was that meeting in Dakar, meeting in Paris and then there was the Children's Conference in Harare, there were a whole lot of things going on and people at home who came now, and these were not necessarily people who were in the underground, some of them were but some were UDF activists, there was all sorts of exposure to the ANC and all sorts of messages that were sent in. There obviously would have been a great deal of politicking going on and people beginning to position themselves for when the change is here. So he was very frustrated in the sense that, I think, he felt we didn't do enough to pull things together.

POM. He had an opportunity from the time he left in July and he met you guys in Moscow in July and he met you in Lusaka and then he met you again in Moscow on the way out, did he not raise these concerns at that point?

IP. No he did, he did, but the thing is that the ball game had changed. Once OR had got his stroke the ball game had changed because what you had is you had Joe –

POM. The master strategist more or less.

IP. Yes, but he had to steer the boat now and he didn't have – because in a way although OR was not a member of the party himself, he had grown to the point where he understood this fine relationship, party and the ANC, and he had such, what is the word?

POM. This is OR you're talking about?

IP. Yes, OR. He had such support in the ANC and such respect that he would have carried many things through. OR also had a very good understanding of what went on and then the gap between OR and, say, those who acted as leadership after OR, I think at some stage it was Alfred Nzo and I think at some stage it was Thomas Nkobi, I mean the gap there is a huge gap and it was actually an impossible chasm to bridge. So what Mac said made actual sense, he was absolutely right, but it was very difficult to do something in the post-OR era on that. That's the one thing.

. Secondly, even for OR to do something about that would have been difficult because the ANC was, though a liberation movement, still a broad church and OR's style of leadership was quite different from most people and it played a very positive role in that OR managed to pull the movement together and the movement didn't split like so many other organisations in exile. Obviously he did it in one part by looking for the greatest unity of people and the commonness, but also the issue of confronting people and expelling people and disciplining people and so on was not a way in which the ANC leadership actually operated unless they absolutely had to. These things were difficult things to solve. I can see somebody who is inside the country and under all that pressure and tension and being away from family saying, 'Hey, we are doing these things, you must start to do something in the relative luxury of exile to pull things together.' Now I'm not saying that this is anything that he said but I'm trying to give a context to it.

. I think the other thing that I remember is again that Mac had a particular approach to how we should build the underground and he said that what we should do, if I remember, is to build the ANC in the unbanned era and he didn't think that one should – obviously one needs to launch the branches, etc., but one needed to have launched them in such a way that the tried and tested cadres would be at the core of these branches because as is normal in such situations, all sorts of opportunists would climb on the bandwagon. I can't remember the detail but he suggested a particular approach to the way in which things should be done for the establishment and organising, making sure that the right people were on the Organising Committee and they should have the right blend of people who understood and were aware of what underground presence there was because whilst we had suspended some forms of struggle we were not surrendering all the capacities we had so whoever is building the ANC has got to be mindful that there is a capacity out there that you're not going to reveal but you've got to build it in such a way that you're pulling that capacity in all the time and at the right moment you will surface those capacities and they won't be disadvantaged because you are now surfacing them later than others who are able to come to the top straight away. He was very concerned about that and I think the way in which this whole leadership thing was handled and the role players in it, and I think he found it extremely difficult because although the movement was now unbanned I think he hadn't surfaced.

POM. That's right.

IP. Yes. To make these interventions and, of course, I don't think you can compete from an underground position in trying to pull these things together with people who are doing it on the surface and perhaps people who are doing it with a mind to position themselves effectively for the new era. So I think that's the other side to it.

POM. Do you recall him resigning shortly after he came back?

IP. Yes.

POM. Because of the manner in which the interim leadership had been designed and implemented?

IP. Yes, yes. That's my recollection. I might be wrong but that's my recollection.

POM. And then Madiba undid that when he met with him and Mac comes back. OK. Ronnie enters the country on 20th, or, sorry, the beginning of April probably if he left Moscow on 20 March.

. Then we get to Tongaat. He had wanted OR to come into the country, not OR, he had wanted JS to come in and they said that can't be done. Then he wanted Jeremy and they said, "Well, we'll see can he get indemnity." Then he wanted the taped message to be sent through from JS and that didn't come through. Did that leave him pissed off? Here he was convening an underground conference of all these people and the leadership of the party didn't even bother to say hello.

IP. I guess so, I imagine so, yes.

POM. You had nothing to do with organisation except for his messages coming through. OK. Do you recall the circumstances his resigning from the SACP?

IP. No.

POM. That would be the meeting, when they met in the country.

IP. You see I was still outside.

POM. You were still outside, of course you were, I'm sorry.

IP. I only went back to the country in 1991, June or July.

POM. OK, that part is over. Next part and I'll get through this quickly. I just want to run through the notes that you sent me and identify - mostly it's names. They are invaluable. This is the only thing in writing, that has OR's handwriting, that testifies as to the existence of Vula and what it was doing.

IP. Just remember now that that's not an original. I scanned that in.

POM. You scanned his writing in?

IP. Yes. It's not an original copy.

POM. OK. I just want to identify names. I see in his writing it's a reply to Adam's report of November 1. Now do all these pages refer to one set of events or to multiple sets?

IP. It's multiple sets. I don't have it in front of me.

POM. Is the handwriting, other than his handwriting, your handwriting?

IP. No, no, there's handwriting there of JS. Hold on, let me see if I can get a copy.

POM. I'm looking at the pages directly as you gave them to me. A couple of them are out of place but I left them that way. So if I go to page number 9 first where it says, "Reply to Adam's report of November", is it? Is that November 1? Page 9.

IP. Let me do it this way, Padraig, if you don't mind because I can't get my head around this. There are four sort of complementary slips, three of them in OR's writing.

POM. That's right.

IP. One of them is dated 12 May 1989.

POM. That refers to HG. Who is HG?

IP. Harry Gwala.  The next one there's no date on it, 16.30 hours on a Saturday. Then there's the handwritten note.

POM. There's a third one which is Monday.

IP. Yes, that's Monday, yes.

POM. That mentions GM.

IP. That would be Govan.

POM. OK. God, I must be dumb.

IP. He didn't use codes on that because that was between me and him. Then there is JS's writing and you will see written there, one, two –

POM. Zizi. That's Govan again?

IP. Yes.

POM. Xundu there, what date?

IP. The date is 11/12/1989.

POM. So Mac would not have been in the country?

IP. No.

POM. And this message would be going to?

IP. This would have then gone to – well we would have sent it to Gebhuza and Janet to actually pass it on.

POM. To?

IP. I think it would have gone to Gebhuza.

POM. To Gebhuza OK. It says, "Thank you for your valuable insights." Xundu is, I guess, Canon Xundu? He used to be in Port Elizabeth in Lamontville.

IP. Yes.

POM. DM is?

IP. DM is, let me just ask my wife now, I know who he is.  There's a guy from Natal who's an arms dealer, he's a doctor. Diliza Mji.

POM. Is he a doctor?

IP. Yes, medical doctor.

POM. I actually interviewed him. Didn't know what the hell he was doing. And OR? Now what was he involved in?

IP. Well Diliza has always been associated with the movement but he wasn't directly part of an underground structure in the sense of being accountable to it but he would have been utilised from time to time. He comes from a strong ANC background, his father was involved in the ANC, there's lineage there, so in the sense of leadership of the ANC understanding who he is and so on, yes, he would have been utilised in that way.

POM. He mentioned an R and R.

IP. Now that's Reggie, R & R is JS and OR. Reggie, I remember now, Reggie and …  But it was OR and JS.

POM. And Reggie is?

IP. Reggie was OR. What was JS? He was another R, I must think about it.

POM. So R & R is JS and OR, and Reggie is OR.

IP. Yes.

POM. GROCES, is that it? Set up an APC in - ?

IP. Graces. Graces was Durban.

POM. DM is?

IP. Diliza Mji.

POM. Sorry, you told me that. The Masher?

IP. Masher is Billy Nair.

POM. Debrief Moss.

IP. I can't remember who this is.

POM. It's OK for the moment.

IP. There was a Moss Chikane, it might be referring to Moss Chikane. I don't know but it could be Moss Chikane.

POM. You were saying political leadership. This is in November 1989 so this is after the release of Walter and the others. "Madiba, thank you for your progress." SM, that's Sydney Mufamadi is it?

IP. Yes.

POM. "A secure line from Madiba to Reggie is welcome." That would be a secure telephone line? What kind of communication would he have been talking about?

IP. I actually think this is the communication through the lawyer.

POM. OK, then we have the maximum collective funding of Rivonia, especially Madiba and thing. Then we have Gatsha, "Photo negative, transcribe it … is useful outline of situation." Would that have come from the work of Mo Shaik's group?

IP. Yes.

POM. "Madiba need special briefing on Gatsha. Please get detailed briefing from Sydney Mufamadi on our import rate, Gatsha and Natal situation at Harare indaba."  Was Gebhuza coming out to Harare for that? From SM, OK, that's fine. Post elections, it has, "AA conference." Is that the NEC conference?

IP. No, Anti Apartheid conference.

POM. Oh, AA conference. "Again, please refer to SM." OK. "From Madiba release, get briefing from SM. We wish to link between possible release and the legalisation of ANC. If SM is too vague on this – Your idea for Madiba's secretary is a good one." Can you remember who that was?

IP. No.

POM. "See OR insert.  We are not happy about purchase of weapons. Thank you for the budget, received R30,000 from Robin." R10,000 is from Robin? Is it Robin?

IP. Yes. Now Robin was JS. So the party was putting in whatever. "Your security info was being passed on to the right quarters. Please give us all information based on suspicions re Bulelani." Does that mean that at that time he had raised the question? Who would have been? That would have been Gebhuza?

IP. Well he would only have raised it since other people had raised it. So he would have passed the message on that, look, there is some suspicion on Bulelani.

POM. OK. Did he pass on that information?

IP. Yes.

POM. Did that information go to Slovo?

IP. Yes.

POM. And did that information go to – well OR was out of the picture at that point.

IP. Yes.

POM. This is just to get my own head in order. So when Mo Shaik says that they conducted an investigation and this was the result of their investigation and he sent that out of the country, that would have gone or did go to London and to Lusaka?

IP. Yes.

POM. And you guys were informed that he was probably found to be a spy?

IP. Yes, that there was suspicion, there were allegations yes.

POM. But the allegations were upheld, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying Mo Shaik sent a report out of the country that said, "In our view, our finding is that he is most probably likely to be a spy." That would have been passed on, that was passed on to you?

IP. No, that information would have come, I wouldn't have actually shared –

POM. To you personally, that was passed on to JS and to – who else would have been?

. "Xulu, please hold your horses." That would have referred to taking action against?

IP. A guy called Maxwell Xulu who was a trade union leader, he was also suspected to be an agent.

POM. How do you spell his second name?


POM. Funds to Masher, OK, we've covered that. "Other Durban items were replied to personally. Best regards to you from all of us and for Adam." You told me Adam was? Adam was Mac?

IP. Yes.

POM. But he says, "Replies to Adam's report", now this is separately from OR which says, "In reply to Adam's report of November 1st."

IP. Let me just have a look at that. You've finished Xulu.

POM. I'm finished. D & A is at the end of that.

IP. "And for Adam especially from."

POM. Your D & A at the end of that? Page? It says here, this is at the end of the budget. "Your scenario for adjustment in HQ and forward areas, internal really gets going, a collective discussion on this will be in place once the APCs begin to tick over. For your information the forward area APCs have been dissolved and are in the process of being replaced by smaller service machineries."

IP. Yes, if you just go back to the other page you will see that it says, "And for Adam especially from … whom Robin saw in Harare, healing process still - "

POM. "Proceeding, but she is looking beautiful."

IP. So it might mean that my date is wrong because this seems to suggest that Mac is in the country.

POM. That's right.

IP. So this could be 1988.

POM. 1988. Of course it's 1988, that's what it is because Govan would have been released by then but the others wouldn't because there's no mention of them at all, so this would have been a message, all of this is going to Gebhuza – it's going to Mac.

IP. It's going to Mac.

POM. OK, saves my day.

IP. Sorry about that.

POM. You see, I took it well, right? No problem with the first page, lovely handwriting, beautiful. He did all these notes himself. My God!

IP. It's OR's.

POM. A & S is – I'm looking at the second page.

IP. It said H & S.

POM. H & S right, that's what it is, "Can lead us to H & S."

IP. Yes, you know I haven't read this thing in ages, "An approach which maintains the priority of the main task and which will ensure that nothing."

POM. "In the enemy infested military area can lead up to."

IP. Unless it's A & S, unless it means Adam and who would S be? I don't know.

POM. We've covered who RM is, and the second one G - E, F G, in regard to 711, Reg, that's me. That's himself he's talking about. With RM? Ahead.

IP. "Who has accepted without asking questions", but no name was mentioned. "We shall not mention Masher unless it becomes essential. As the need arises we shall proceed as proposed by yourself."

POM. "Reg has already discussed along the lines suggested with RM."

IP. What name did we say JS was just now? It was another R that we said.

POM. Robin.

IP. Now who's RM? Don't know.

POM. We'll get it, OK. We've got Masher. "In the meantime when the PMC misses any of its units or contacts we shall handle the matter. Now you should for the moment leave Paul G." Paul G is?

IP. Paul Goitsemang. He's a guy, he's around now, he real name is Vuso Tshabalala. It was his brother that went missing in Natal eventually.

POM. Ray, RK and JZ, that's Ronnie Kasrils and Jacob Zuma.

IP. No, no, that's JZ, Jacob Zuma.

POM. They were discussing they've got new jobs.

IP. New projects.

POM. So he's looking for someone to come in at that time, it's unreal. "Your scenario for  adjusting HQ all the way down." You're at the very bottom of that, your D & A, would it be checked with London?

IP. Is it C or D? Is that item D? Is it A?

POM. We have A, B, K, L, M.  So we've gone through D. J, J was Ronnie Kasrils and Jacob Zuma.

IP. OK, I've got that one. That's J. I don't seem to have that one. What happened is you say there's a K, L, M? Let me just find that one. Right. Oh this is back to JS's writing is it?

POM. Yes.

IP. We're back to JS's writing. OK, we're on K. Oh at the end. "Your D plus A queries will be checked with London."

POM. Don't worry if you can't remember it Ivan, just leave it be. Could these possibly have been two sets of messages? Because I do note that at the top of page 1 where it says Ray Zizi, it says the 11th of the 12th and it looks like 1989.

IP. But I think it's 1988.

POM. 1988 because it makes more sense in terms of 1988. The other, he says, "Bravo, Adam and Sylvester."

IP. Sylvester is Gebhuza.

POM. So Tony was a code name for Mac, Adam was a code name for Mac. OK.

IP. Then A & S could be Adam and Sylvester because if I remember now that passage it was about fear, things mustn't leak back, that Adam and Sylvester are actually there and so on.

POM. I don't want to put you in a position of anything but one of the things in the Hefer Commission was that since it was only hearsay he could not establish, it's only Mo said it, he was unable to say whether the reports that he prepared on Bulelani were ever received any place because there was no-one to verify whether or not they were. But from these notes you've prepared it is clear that in fact these reports were received.

IP. Yes and I think Jacob Zuma would have testified if required.

POM. If he had been asked. Yes, I'm going to ask him. Why not? All he can say is no.

IP. And he will say yes.

POM. That's good, I believe he will. I've had a long and good contact with him over several years of pursuing him up and down like everybody else.

. Listen, Ivan, thank you ever so much. As always you're really accommodating and I really appreciate it and this clears up and fills in a lot of gaps and holes for me because I keep telling Mac that if we do it we have to do it right. You know what I mean? That it stands the test of inquiry.

IP. It's a pity, I'm one of those people who actually destroyed a lot of things.

POM. Don't tell me that!

IP. I really didn't keep much.

POM. But you kept some important stuff and we have to live with what we have. I might get back to you on a couple of queries and one time I want to meet you and your family and take you out for dinner just as a social event.

IP. That'll be nice.

POM. Thanks, Ivan. Bye bye now.

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