About this site

This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.

15 Sep 1993: Shabalala, Thomas

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POM. Thomas, could you tell me something about your background, where you were born and raised, went to school?

TS. I was born in Ladysmith in 1943, in March.  I stayed in Ladysmith for about five years, then I came to Durban, where I lived in a place called Springfield.  It's a nice Indian area next to Newlands East.  That is where I started my schooling up till standard six.  From there I went to Thornfield Road.  At the time the school was called Lawrence Secondary School, where I did my standard seven up to standard ten. Then I started working because I came out of a very poor family.  When I worked for the first company, which was Beacon Sweets, in Mobeni in Merebank, there I was earning £2/9s/3d a week.  I only had one pair of trousers and two shirts.  I used to wash my trousers after work at home for the next day.  From that £2/9s/3d, I lived and started learning to drive.  I wanted to be a driver.  I carried on until I got my driver's licence in 1963, and then I got my job at Rustic Timbers in 1964 at a better salary which meant I could look after myself better and my family.

POM. Were you still living at home all this time?

TS. All the time I was still living at home, until I got married, I was still living with my family, we were eighteen in a four roomed house.  Then I decided, seeing that I was the eldest and that I had my own family now, that I had to find my own house. It was difficult for me, although I had applied to the government, the South African government ran the townships in those years. I tried to find accommodation for myself.  I made several applications which were unsuccessful, until I managed to get this place which is called Lindelani, where I am living now.  Then I started erecting my house.  It was my first time to build a house with my wife.  We were sleeping in a car, I had a car at that time, it was a BMW.  For three months we were living in the vehicle trying to put up the start that I had.  There were very few people in the area, at that time it was just bush.  So, we managed to complete the house and we lived there.  At the time I was living with my wife only, my children were still living with my mother-in-law.   I built the house back in the year 1985, when I was elected by the people to be the leader.

POM. When was the first time you got involved in politics?

TS. In 1985.

POM. What made you get involved at that time?

TS. I liked Dr Buthelezi, and I read papers, newspapers, hearing about him.  I felt that he is a leader that you can trust.  Until then I was not involved in politics, but in 1985 I joined politics, I joined the IFP.  I became a member of the Central Committee in 1987, through the IFP, and I recruited many members for the IFP in my area.  From that time I was recognised as a very strong leader although other political parties or organisations did not like me.  It was at the time in 1989, when the UDF still existed, in 1988 or 1989, that I was called a warlord.

POM. What is meant by a warlord?

TS. I don't know, I did not know all along, until there came the time when I heard about Somalia and Saddam Hussein.  I believe that those were the people whose leaders were like boxers.

. Just because I did not join those organisations who wanted me and my people, the people I am leading, that is why I am being called a warlord.  If I had joined the ANC for instance I would not have been called a warlord, their people haven't really been called warlords. They are not being called warlords, they are being called allies because they befriend the ANC.

POM. Remember, you were telling me at one time what had  happened to your parents?  What did they do.  Can we talk a little about that?

TS. Yes, it was one night, I don't remember the date, I have got it in my diary at home, where they attacked my parents' place.

POM. Where they looking for you?

TS. I can say they were looking for me.  They attacked the house, they locked the front door, the burglar bars, they locked the back and they poured petrol, the house was in flames.  My father was badly burnt and my mother also, she was very brave to get the family out, one by one because they were all fast asleep.  She managed to pull everyone out except a two year old child that was left.

POM. Was that your daughter?

TS. That was my sister's child.

POM. What impact did it have on your family as a whole?

TS. I can say my family is very brave my parents are brave, everyone.  It did have an impact, especially my father.  We were all in God's care.  We buried the child, the funeral was over, it took us about six months. The mother of the child, my sister, she could not take too much, it killed her.  I think she was too worried about her child.

POM. What is your view of people killing?  You attended the National Peace Accord resolution. Have you been accused by the people of the ANC then of being a warlord?

TS. No, I remember I saw the first draft, my name was nowhere listed as a warlord.  Eric Gwala of the ANC was listed as a warlord and Ntombela who lives in Maritzburg and another one was Peter Magagula who was listed as a warlord.  And I don't remember who else was listed.

. Even the ANC won't call me a warlord because after being involved in this case, I do a lot of work where sometimes things are very difficult; for instance in Vryheid I handled the peace there.  I brought the IFP and the ANC together where it was terrible; the ANC failed to bring them together and some of the IFP members failed to bring those people together. I made it and the ANC gave me their blessing for attending those meetings with their people.  But they never attended, I mean the leadership, when I went to speak.  They were speaking to me, it was the United Nations, Commonwealth, OAU, the police and the churches - people who were representing the churches, but God worked because they came together.

POM. There is more violence in Natal this year than in any other year, the violence is increasing.

TS. I think the judiciary is on the rocks.  There were places that we had (violence) which is called Themba,  a name of an area in Inanda.  This area in Inanda is called Themba, that was the worst place.  If I can call it that it was terrible.  But we managed for the past two weeks to keep peace, we are talking to each other, and we have not had violence the whole of last week.  We had only one single incident where one boy from another group went and stabbed another one the other side.  Both were taken together to the police, although one fled on the way.  But as it is now, it is very quiet and peaceful.  The churches also contributed by taking a prayer and we have also gone as far as having a joint meeting at a place called Wemaphuta.  There are also lots of people present with Bheki Khumalo who is on the Regional Dispute Committee of the Judiciary Committee.  It was me and him and Peter of the ANC, we managed to bring the people together.  Although there is still violence here and there, you can see that those are clearly the criminals.

POM. If the IFP does not return to the negotiating table, do you think they will participate in elections next year?

TS. Well, it is two different things.  If we are talking about the elections we must know which elections we are talking about.  Because if you are talking about the Constitutional Assembly that is not elections.  To go and elect a body that will write a constitution that is not what we want.  We want elections.  If we have elections next week, we will have a constitution written fair.  Then we know what we are going to vote for.  We can stand for elections even next year.

POM. The election next 27th April for a Constituent Assembly to write a constitution?

TS. We are against that.

POM. You will not do that

TS. No we don't like it.  I will personally advise my people not to do it.  We want a fair election like in other countries where we must write a constitution first then we can go for elections.  Because if I say to you I hold my hand closed like this, and say, "All right, you go first," then I will tell you what is inside here then it is not fair.  Then I say if you want to know what is inside here let me open it up for you.  That is not what we want.  I believe many people in South Africa will stand for elections if it is a fair election.  The constitution must be there for South Africa.  South Africans must be aware of the constitution.  Their input must also be included, all the parties or organisations, everybody must be involved.  The conference that is taking place at the World Trade Centre now does not represent everyone.  There are many, many, many parties and organisations that are not represented at that conference.

POM. And are you hopeful that the IFP will be back at the World Trade Centre, or do you think it will not hand the position of the ANC, in particular the government, that there will be an election of the Constituent Assembly is on their side fixed but on your side, your unwillingness to participate in such an election for a Constituent Assembly also you have shown that you are not going to compromise at this point in time, on either side.

TS. I see no compromise, because if we say we don't want this thing we don't want it.  We want fair elections that's all.

POM. There is no compromise if these elections go ahead next year?

TS. They can go ahead if they like with the elections if we were not part and parcel of the talks and whatever outcome comes, the whole elections they go ahead for us that is not enough.  They will be doing their own thing.  It has nothing to do with KwaZulu Natal.

POM. You say KwaZulu Natal because it has become autonomous from the South African government?

TS. I cannot predict at the moment what will happen but I am sure that even in South Africa, that in KwaZulu Natal there are those people also who will not take part in a debate or who will not, who do not agree with this Constituent Assembly.  Even those people, I believe, there will be a problem the way I see it if they go it alone.

POM. Do you see any kind of intensification of the war that would come about between the IFP and the ANC here or in the last ten years?

TS. Well, in the elections that I heard of, or in the towns that I have been to, if the ANC wants to, and the government don't want to listen to other people, I see a civil war.

POM. A civil war?

TS. Yes, I am merely saying that we can see that there will be a civil war.  It does not mean that we are calling for one.  For instance, if I see it is cloudy outside and I say to you, I think it is going to rain, it does not mean that I am the one who is going to make it rain. Yes, but it is what I forecast.

POM. What are you saying?  Are you saying that if the government and the ANC do not meet your demands - ?

TS. Not only my demands, the people of South Africa's demands.  We are prepared to negotiate our demands, we have the right.  The people are calling for a referendum.  The people of South Africa, no matter how big their parties or their organisations, whoever is in South Africa at this time must have a word.  They must say what they want in the new South Africa.  Not to be just pushed aside as if only the ANC can say the words and the people must listen to the ANC and the government.  Each and every one in South Africa must be happy with the constitution, how it will look, what are we going vote for, and things like that.

POM. There are many people, actually political commentators, who are saying that the only reason why the IFP does not want elections next year for a Constituent Assembly, is because nationally it would probably get less than 10% of the vote and only have a marginal influence on the development of the constitution.

TS. That is a joke.  Let's make this point clear.  We have never said that we don't want the elections.  We say let us write the constitution first then they can have elections, we are not saying that there must be no elections, that we do not want elections.

POM. I am not saying that you do not want elections.  What I am saying is that you want the constitution put in place first.

TS. Yes, that is right.

POM. You want the constitution put in place before the elections.  Because you know that if there were an election for the Constituent Assembly, you might nationally get only 10% of the vote and that would not be very much of an influence in a debate within the Constituent Assembly if a constitution was then drawn up by the Constituent Assembly, so you are trying to safeguard your own interests.

TS. Oh no, we are not only trying to safeguard our interests, we are trying to safeguard the interests of the people of South Africa.  Everybody must know what is going to take place, what and when to vote for, what the country will look like, that is why we are demanding a constitution.  We are not worried who will win the elections because our place is there in the document.  If the ANC can win we would be in the planning because it will be the multi party government who are in power, even if the National Party wins.  But with other speakers there, in the parliament, we are not worried about that.   But we must know what is the future of our children.  Our children are not the people who will be voting.  Not that somebody you vote for goes and writes the constitution and they have all the powers, they can write anything and we will never say anything after that.  Because those people who are calling for the Constituent Assembly, they want to grab power.  That is the one way that they can gain power.

POM. Are you saying that they want to write the constitution, gain power and then they will be the first and the last government and there will never be any successive governments?

TS. You will never take them out.  I know that is why they want that, they want to stay in power one way, and then they start grabbing people's land, you must pay tax and this and that.  Because they are communists you must never trust them.  People of South Africa, black, white, Indian, coloured all must have a constitution that is fair, then you know exactly what you are going to vote for. That is what we are saying, what type of a government we will have.  We must have a referendum.  After writing the constitution we must get the feelings of the people.  If everybody says it's OK then it's OK.

POM. Yesterday we had a meeting with the King, and he talked about what was going on as being a threat to the Zulu nation.

TS. Definitely.

POM. Is that a big factor?  Do people like to think that they are not just a member of the IFP but actually of the Zulus?

TS. Yes, even those who are not involved in politics, we listen to foreign programmes, we listen to the news, we read the papers.  We have people in South Africa to comment on the radio phone-in programmes, this and that.  They have that fear, many people see clearly what is happening that the Zulus are being undermined.  People are trying to bury the Zulus.  There must be no Zulus, they must just take over Zululand.  We have KwaZulu Natal, we have our kingdom, people cannot just take that easily.

POM. Who are these people?

TS. I can say the ANC and the National Party.  That is why they are working very closely together and my feeling is that I wonder what did they find on this record of understanding?  Are we actually exposing the record that was signed together to the world and the people of South Africa or the point that they agreed on before working together like they are working together now?  And many people are so happy so see the government and the ANC working together because they have been enemies and they did not want to talk to each other.  We appreciate that they can have bilateral talks, they can go to hotels together, sleep in one bed, do what ever they want to do, we are not worried about that.  That is very good, because they both did not believe in talks.  The ANC has believed in an armed struggle and the National Party were saying they would never talk to the terrorists, now they are talking to each other.  But they mustn't take bilateral decisions without the people of South Africa being involved no matter from which party or political organisation, they must consult with the people of South Africa.

POM. Now last year this time when we talked to you, there were stayaways going on and the three day strike or whatever, the government and the ANC were very much polarised, and the government had a much closer relationship with the IFP and with Dr Buthelezi than that of the ANC.  What would happen if those roles were to be turned around, what would happen if you were to turn the whole thing around?

TS. I cannot say that it is a very creative relationship.  We, on the IFP side, we talk to anybody.  It is not that we are friends so much with the government, we are the government.  We are the government in that way although we are still under them we don't have to serve on their union, but we are calling.  There are things that the government is doing that we don't like and we have made it clear that we don't like it.  Must we take, I mean, bilateral talks, we have bilateral talks with the ANC?  I don't take violence in my honour even if we do not want this.  The other voices must also be heard.

. You see, the government, they are only listening to the ANC.  Believe me they are intimidated a lot by the other side.  The reason that they are now just listening to what the ANC is saying they are not worried about other South African citizens.

POM. Last August, Roelf Meyer had a meeting with the National Party in Durban and planned a series of proposals which are being aimed at trying to entice you back into the fold.  They said that the Zulu people were looking for the right to self-determination and that he believed that blacks be met under structures which would involve federalism and that the constitution be at the central level of government for a particular area, for instance KwaZulu Natal. Would that go some of the way towards meeting your concerns or there being a full constitution drawn up before any elections, period?

TS. Is that what you are calling it?  You want a full constitution only from the election and not written by our own constitution for KwaZulu Natal which we were contributing.  We are not saying that people must accept that. For instance the ANC, they have a Harare Declaration, they can bring that thing forward, the PAC can bring what they see how we can run the country for that matter, whichever party can bring their constitution forward on what they think the country must look like, but most of the things that we feel is this is how we should run the country.

POM. There is a meeting today between Mr de Klerk and Dr Buthelezi.

TS. Yes, today.

POM. Would you be surprised if something comes out of these talks?  Would you be surprised if just at the end of it that Dr Buthelezi would say that we have reached an agreement?

TS. No I would not be surprised because I trust him.  He is my leader and he knows what the people want, if he has reached an agreement with the State President on what the people want I won't be surprised you know, I will just say, "Thank God."  At least something has been agreed upon or something like that, a solution must be found.

POM. Would you be surprised then if he says that we will take part in an election process for a Constituent Assembly?

TS. Then I will be surprised if he says that because we as his followers, it is not him who is saying that he doesn't like a Constituent Assembly although he also says that he took it from our conference, from our people.  The people of our country, from our party, are saying that they want fair elections and a fair constitution.  I will be surprised that if all of a sudden he says that.

POM. Let me ask you another question.  Let's say that the ANC and the government agreed with the IFP and that it was OK to draw up a full constitution and then have elections for a parliamentary body.  Do you think that people like Harry Gwala and the ANC, in particular in the Midlands here, would accept the decision of the national leadership, or would they say they are simply not going to roll over and accept this outcome?

TS. First of all I must start by saying it is not only the IFP that is calling for a constitution first and then an election.  I heard that if the ANC agrees then the government would agree that writing a constitution should be first, then an election.  It is not only the IFP that is calling for that, I think the people are calling for that even other countries like the Ciskei, they are calling for that and the other people, even the people of South Africa they are calling for that. The majority of them I think are calling for that.  If the ANC is determined and agrees that we write a constitution first and then go for elections if the referendum shows that a majority says that is how we should go about it.  Then coming to your second question, Harry Gwala as the main man in the Midlands, we are having problems even on the Peace Accord, I mean the National Peace Secretariat where we are still working with that region which is the Midlands.  Even my colleagues in the ANC that we are working with, they are having problems with the Natal Midlands.  Even I myself, representing the IFP on these peace structures, am having problems with the Natal Midlands because the leadership in Natal do not want to, they want to motivate and then tomorrow they don't want to.   We are busy working on our side, we have had an invitation from the IFP to involve  the ANC here in the southern region because the southern region is important.  And the leadership of the southern region even on the peace structure must stand up and seize the Natal Midlands.  That was the report made last week by our leadership from the Natal Midlands.  So I  believe if Harry Gwala, I don't know how they work out,  I have never seen their constitution,  I don't know if it has the respect of the leaders because I once heard Mr Mandela where he wanted to talk to Dr Buthelezi, he said he would like to talk with Dr Buthelezi but his followers will throttle him.  I wondered if his word is final or maybe the leadership said it is final to their organisation.  If Harry Gwala, if their leadership's word is final, and Harry Gwala does not abide on their instructions or their constitution, then I don't know what actions they can take.  But if he does respect his leadership on the higher position, then even if he does not like listening to what decision the ANC on the higher level has taken.

POM. What impact do you think the assassination of Chris Hani has had on the whole peace process?  Has it accelerated it?

TS. It had an immediate impact for a few months, but now people have realised that we have lost one man.  Whether we loved him as our fellow comrade in our party or organisations, but through him, I mean that millions of people or thousands of people did die.  I think that people have changed their attitudes now.  For the first few months it was terrible.  But now people have realised that if more people die we will recover if less people die, he will never wake up.  He has gone away.  It has cleared that pain in their hearts like anybody.  I know that he had a family to look after.  If I die my children will love me.  I know that my children loved me.  If I die I know that my wife loved me.  There are people who loved me and it will always be a sorrow if I die just like Chris Hani.  I don't think that the people who killed him did a very good thing by killing.  I think the best thing is to change the man's attitude.  If you can see today people like the PLO, Arafat, people changing like that in Israel meeting members like Arafat.  Nobody ever thought that a man like Arafat could change.  I believe that it is best to change a man's attitude, not to kill him.

POM. How about the fact that up until March this year the average number of killings per day was four?  Since March to September the number has risen to ten.  Do you regard yourself here as being in what would be called a civil war?

TS. Oh yes, sorry, I don't want to cut you short.  I hear people saying that sometimes you know our leaders like Dr Buthelezi warning about a civil war and that is at the expense of democracy. I can see, if you count the number of people who are dying now, to me that is war.  That is why it has got to stop, to make these peace structures work, they must be effective.  So it is wrong, because there are many people dying as you have been counting numbers.

POM. And if the IFP stays outside during this entire negotiating process and do not participate in elections, that war, will it intensify?

TS. Not only the IFP, other parties too.  It is a government thing.  It is above my feeling.  But as I quoted to you, if I see clouds it is going to rain, it does not mean that I am going to make it rain.  It is God that will make it rain, that is how I view it.  If some people are left out of negotiations or elections that might cause violence to spread in the country but I cannot run away from that.  We are in this thing or we are not.

POM. Like in Inanda now, people are protected by security systems, can anybody just walk in there?  Can the ANC just walk in there tonight and start shooting people and burning people?

TS. At Inanda? Well I cannot just say it is the ANC. But always what we notice is that people are always calling it the IFP and the ANC.  Yes it is true in some areas that it is both parties or organisations fighting, but in other areas you will find that there are some people who are also just criminals that will steer violence.  So people must carry on fighting, burn houses then while people are running away they go for the TV's and that kind of stuff.  And as such, unemployment also contributes to it.  There are many people who are not employed.

POM. Is anybody in control of the judiciary?  Is the ANC in control of those comrades on the ground?  What are the things that they are talking about?  Can we use that as an excuse, and similarly is the IFP and Dr Buthelezi in control again?

TS. The only problem that I experience with them working in this non violent area, the leadership, the ANC does not have control of these young children as comrades.  If they can control them the violence can stop.  But some of them, they don't listen to their leaders, they just go on their own and do their thing.  I do not blame them, they are children most of them.  So if you keep a child in, there is the fear that the child can start killing now because the child is enjoying it.  If I give the child a firearm the child becomes a criminal.  So I think in some or other areas you find that they do have control of those children.  They stop them.  But mostly, their children do go wild and they can't stop them.

. And there are those who are using those children to commit these crimes and commit these acts of violence.  If funds can be stopped and physically pumped into certain parties or organisations or organs like the human rights lawyers or Diakonia, this is a top creation.  Most people do not like to see violence stopping because they will lose their jobs.  You know that.  But these funds that come in directly to these people, sometimes they worry me but if it could come into one trust and be looked after, maybe to the black government, and does things that will restore the people, that could help.

POM. Do you think that more UN observers would help?

TS. No I do not think so because I have been working with them now for quite some time.  The expectations that I suppose they have, I don't see it.  I still believe that the only people who can stop violence are the people of South Africa.  If you look at what is happening in Somalia, in Mogadishu, around that time and around that area which is the place where the Muslims were fighting, if you look at Bosnia how many people were dying in their presence and are still dying there?  The people of South Africa, some of them, don't have any trust or hope that they can do anything to stop the violence.  Because you know what happens, even in their presence at places, people are getting killed.  How then will they stop the violence here and what is different from them and those who are working in those areas?

POM. Do you see this country slipping more towards a Bosnia-like situation?

TS. If our leaders at the top and the government and all the parties and organisations involved negotiate properly, not to say we are negotiating now but I want everything for myself, I want my part, if they open their hearts and put God in their hearts, treat each other as human beings and brothers and South African citizens, negotiate a proper thing, have no hidden agendas, then I think that we can go ahead.   Think of other people, what is good for our children and the future of our children, then it will be all right.

POM. If you think back to the stage that we were at this time last year when we talked to you and where we are today, do you think the political violence situation                       is better or worse?

TS. I can say in some areas it is getting better, but getting better especially in the southern regions, because we don't get people ambushing vehicles now like in the open corral where we are losing many people but now the situation is better in some areas.  In Umlazi there are still some people getting killed but it is not like before. For instance in Vryheid it is very rare that you hear about people getting killed.  So to me it is encouraging really if the leaders can really commit themselves to peace.  I mean the government can work their hardest to control the arms, the illegal arms that are hidden in our country, they can really be concerned about that and the arms that come into our country, but I believe that they are not doing enough.

POM. The government?

TS. Yes the government, they have the security and the police.  I don't think they are doing enough.

POM. Have you found the police co-operative or are they kind of siding with the ANC?

TS. I think the police are doing their work, some of them are going towards the ANC, some of them, they are also human beings, some of them are going towards the IFP, some towards the PAC, some towards the National Party, but the attitude of most of them now that we are having this communal relationship is that we are using them to talk to people, they are trying to seal their relationship.  But the main thing is to stop the violence, whether they are going towards the ANC or going towards the IFP or whoever it is, that doesn't concern me so much because I believe that one day when there is voting in this country they will vote, definitely they won't say that because I am a policeman I won't vote, they will definitely vote for organisations because it is their right.

POM. The situation in Natal, the Zulus, like it is today, would you have the April elections carried out or would you rather wait until negotiations reach a higher level?

TS. If you look at some statements that have been made by some of the ANC leaders who told people that on the election day uMkhonto we Sizwe will be sending their members to each and every ballot area to see that we have a fair election.  I don't think that it will be a fair election if uMkhonto we Sizwe sends their people fully armed.  So that would not be a fair election.  I hope, I am praying for that, that people must not be intimidated because we are still experiencing a new thing as blacks, we are still learning to vote, it is a great opportunity to be given by God after so many years, let it be a fair election, we don't want to see something like what is happening in Angola.  That is what I am saying.

POM. You as a Zulu, as a member of the IFP, and many of the members of the ANC say that the war that is going on between the IFP and the ANC, it is Zulu against Zulu.  Why can't the King play a more effective role by saying to both sides that you are destroying the Zulu nation?

TS. Let me first comment on the dispute that it is Zulu against Zulu. The main thing that we are worrying about when they are fighting is not their groups whether they are Xhosa, Zulu or whatever, although in some areas, mostly in KwaZulu Natal it is people who are saying my head is ANC or my head is IFP, they are not worried whether you are Zulu, Xhosa or white, they are talking about Natal.  When you ask why the King doesn't get involved because the Zulus are killing Zulus, I dispute that it is Zulu fighting against Zulu here in Natal.  The King doesn't get involved in politics, he has made several calls saying that people, no matter what race you are, stop the bloodshed.  That is what he is calling for, he has also said that forget about what party you belong to or organisation, but Zulus must come together as they are his children.  He cannot be mediator to both of them, he wants them to follow the correct procedures of inviting him.  But if the two leaders get together and speak to people at the grassroots, and the people say no, we want the King to come and address us now, both of them would have to come up with that.

. I am confident that it is going to happen although there are some people who are saying that Mr Mandela and Dr Buthelezi mustn't go to the rallies, but the rallies that is going to as a member of uMkhonto we Sizwe. I never ever thought that I would sit with him, but we cry together, we talk together, we trust each other, because the first thing we must do is to bring trust.  As I am sitting here I don't know how many times, he is the one who is calling me, he is wanting me to phone him.  At so many of the rallies we have attended, people were holding hands, singing, being Christians together.  It is in our hearts now, that is how we must be, through trust.

. The rest of this tape is unintelligible.


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