This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.
04 Nov 1994: Khoza, Themba
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POM. You were just saying, Themba?
TK. No, I'm saying welcome, nice seeing you again and meeting you in a completely different environment and I must say that it has been quite difficult coming this far and while it is supposed to be working but there are also some negative indications. I am not being pessimistic about it. There are indications that the factual government of national unity in South Africa might not last too long.
POM. Why do you say that?
TK. Chances are of course for it to survive is the question of sincere commitment to bringing about a stabilised society and that's it. The problem at the moment is that whilst we are supposed to be trying extremely hard to become national politicians I think in certain instances we have not, by we I mean everybody in this parliament, we have not got out of the past. Political parties are still the issue and I think it will be to the detriment of the government of national unity. Those are my big worries and I don't know how long this is going to continue.
POM. What would be the government's strengths and what are its weaknesses?
TK. The strength of course is the will of the people of South Africa. People are willing to make the government work. People across political lines, politicians and ordinary people on the ground, they are willing to see it working. And the country itself, comparing it to the other African countries, draws much attention of the world and it is most potentially investment culture. So those are strong points. I think we must say thank you to the National Party in trying to enrich one section of the community but at least it managed to draw the attention and build the kind of foundations, infrastructures that we have at the moment. But at the same time we have this problem of fears on the side of the investors. They are not sure whether the ruling party is still dominated and controlled by the communist influence which makes them suspicious. We have got many promises. When the State President of the country, Mr Mandela, goes abroad he really gets the promises, everybody says we are following you but we haven't got the money. All the big money countries have promised us investment and things like that but we haven't got it at the moment. Those are the strengths but in the very dividing thin line, in that very context there is a small dividing thin line that when countries are saying that they are going to invest in South Africa people of South Africa grow expectations and hope and it is very unfortunate if this does not materialise. The state becomes a bit explosive and it isn't becoming up until now and that is ...
POM. Are you getting the feeling on the ground that people are tired of waiting and want some delivery?
TK. Yes, they are running out of patience as a result and it is not in our making as the government to quicken the investment. There is a reciprocal situation, recurring situation where the investors are looking at the stability of the country and we have a shooting up crime rate in our country and then they wait for a better chance. While they are waiting for a better chance what pushes the crime rate up is the kind of dissatisfactions running out of patience by the people on the ground. So we need to be helped. People have got to come in and help us. We have heard the promises.
POM. You have to create stability. If I were a foreign businessman and I come to this country and I picked up the newspapers of the last couple of weeks I would have seen the MK walking out of the military camps, I would have seen SDUs still operating like gangs in some of the townships, I would have seen random strikes called in downtown Johannesburg, I would have seen the crime rate soaring.
TK. Well that's all true, that's all true. That is why I kicked off by saying that I'm not sure how long the government of national unity is going to remain, fragile as it is. We have a situation where in the smallest possible chance our main opponents in the name of the ANC will use that opportunity to try to destroy us. I can refer easily to the KwaZulu problems, the problem that was there between the King and Dr Buthelezi, which the ANC is behind it, and that kind of opportunity does not go with the kind of the state that South Africa is. And again this is not our making, I can't go to the ANC and say please don't push me around, do love me. That cannot change them because one just does not know how long is the agenda. But anyway above that I think there was over creation of expectations before the elections. It wasn't correct that when the former government got out of power people will get everything, as if it was going to be a tap switched on and off. People were promised houses, jobs and everything and all of those things that they were promised with is actually sorry instead of shaping.
. So let's look at the MK issue. I've been there personally. We toured all the camps checking the integration process. By the way I am representing the IFP on the Defence Senate Committee. I talked to the MK people and you will be surprised at ... In Pretoria they say they were looking for me personally and they wanted me to come to their rescue because they believed that the ANC was actually using them and they gave me a long list of their grievances and to sum it all up the grievances they have were grievances created by the ANC. For example when they were called to go to exile and promised to be given packages when they come back and they came back and there are no packages and nobody is explaining that. And when they were reluctant to go to the integration centre assembly points they were told that until they go there they are not going to receive their packages and as a result they weren't there. Then of course you realise that most of them are not just soldiers, people like self-defence units who were given just a basic idea of military training and quickly came back, those who left as late as 1990 and after. So you then have that kind of people. However, I personally always maintain no matter how people can be informed with the developments around the country but a leader has the responsibility of always explaining to the people, explain everything, those things that the people want to hear and those things that are there but people would not want to hear, but that has got to be explained. The responsibility of leadership should be shared with the followers.
. I think that is what the ANC did not do and now we have these kind of problems that you see walking out and in. Already you can hear, I was a bit shocked last night when I heard that they have added their demands by saying that they are not going to come back to the military assembly points until those who died in exile are brought back. And I was shocked to hear that because when I went, I actually went to Wolmaranstad, I went to Western Cape, that is another military infantry school, and I went to SA Air Force base in Langebaanweg and I went to Saldanha where the Navy is and Military Academy School is. There were complaints but not this latest one which is too serious and that cannot be addressed by the government of national unity because we know nothing about the people who died in exile, military cadres who died in exile and we know nothing about the packages promised to the ANC cadres, former uMkhonto weSizwe members and all those things were made by a party. Now that is the kind of problem we are facing over and above the internal problem within the government of national unity where I am saying the ANC used the smallest available chance to destroy the IFP. That is unfortunate. If I were in their position I would not have tried to do that. I mean if the government of national unity falters the ANC will carry more pain than all of us and it is unfortunate.
POM. We talked to, in fact we were here observing the elections and everything we saw was that they did the right thing. We must have gone to ten or twelve polling booths. Yet afterwards there were widespread allegations of fraud and votes stolen. Do you think the election was rigged in a way?
TK. I think so, yes. Let me be frank with you. Among the IFP leadership I am the only one who wasn't afraid of accepting the outcome of the election. I was the only one and the whole house, in fact they did not accept but they compromised because they said better the trouble of accepting bad election results rather than allowing the country to slide into a civil war. Then I said OK. After all the PWV was the worst one and in KwaZulu/Natal IFP won by a margin. We would have had 50% well clear above all of them but we are satisfied. So it is true but personally I have got no qualms. It was rigged.
POM. How about, I mentioned it earlier on, the relationship between Buthelezi and the King?
TK. I think it is true that the ANC has managed to win the King over to their side but they forgot one thing. They want the King as a figure not the kingdom as an institution. Let me first say to you this is my first ever public comment about the relationship between the King and Buthelezi so I haven't done that, the reason being simple, the King is my cousin and Dr Buthelezi is my uncle so I wouldn't like to talk about these guys. So I think then it is clear, I will therefore be in a way elusive, deliberately elusive and I can only say to you that if the King–
POM. Nothing that's on the tape will be published until 1998.
TK. It doesn't matter. What I am saying in this regard is that if the ANC think they have won they are mistaken. The people they have been killing all along were the Zulu people, not the King and his family. It has been the Zulu people widespread, therefore Zulus know who the ANC are. Just before the election look at the Shell House massacre where they killed innocent and defenceless Zulu people. So that thing still flies in the minds of the Zulu people and it is therefore coming to the mind of the Zulu as a surprise that the King whom they think is their head will easily forget such things and as I am talking to you today there is a case pending against Mandela, against the ANC, against the police pertaining the Shell House massacre. The Zulus want to be compensated particularly those who are now orphans, widows, cripples. So the court is still instituting those kind of claims so there is no way that a Zulu leader could be expected to walk the way the King did. However, I do not want to divulge very much in this matter but I can simply say to you the institution doesn't belong to one man. The institution belongs to all the Zulu nation and all those who stay there. So even if the King decided to take membership with the ANC or fall in love with them, we cannot tell a man what to do but we can prepare and arrange the infrastructure of the kingdom to suit those Kings that went before and those Kings that are yet to be born, so that's how I can handle this one.
POM. There's been a lot of talk about the gravy train and even the Cape Times today had a little thing that said that MPs won't cut their salaries.
TK. I didn't see that. What did they say?
POM. That the perception has been created that they are all leading a good life and we're down here ...
TK. And people are suffering.
POM. You're fine and they kind of resent it.
TK. I don't know why such a thing was created but I must tell you I was better in the IFP and earning less than I am doing here because we are paying here tax from the salaries something like 40% before we talk about anything else and having paid the tax on salaries we pay for the houses that we stay in here which was not the case with the previous government. We pay for our telephones and if you finish your flying tickets allocated to you, you buy them. At the end of the day if I work out my salary, at the end of the day I've got R5000 to go straight into my pocket and start arranging my life with it and to me that is niggly, that's no gravy train. I'm aware that some other colleagues they are shy to talk about it and say that the money is not enough because they think that they are going to be less popular with the people on the ground. To me I don't care about that. The money is not enough. If you ask me, if there is a way for me to go back to Johannesburg I will do that today, now, I will pack my bags and go back home. I was better off there than here and so to me there is no question.
POM. Do you feel more secure now, that you don't always have to be looking over your shoulder to see if there is somebody with a gun there?
TK. Not really you know, not really. The difference perhaps would be that things are looked at in a more sober way, not in a highly paranoid manner. But all the dangers that were there before are still there now so you have got to be careful, security conscious.
POM. Do you think the country can afford to have, even be prepared to have local elections next October?
TK. I don't know because it varies. In the PWV, Johannesburg in particular, I think the time frame October next year for the local elections can be affordable, we can afford that, it can be met. But in other areas that I know as well it cannot. Arrangements have not been done, we are not through, we haven't gone far enough. In areas like Johannesburg you already have temporary metropolitan chambers are now taking place to prepare and cater during the process between today and the election day. And where the infrastructures have gone up based like that chances become good for the elections. So in other areas, yes.
POM. Do you think that because local elections are local that this will re-ignite animosities between the IFP and the ANC and that you will see political violence in Natal in particular?
TK. The answer is no. Maybe once you are asking me that question I must also bring up another thing that worries me. Chances of trying to reach elections or temptations to do so to those who did it before are still there. It is commonly understood by the people and everybody around, people on the ground and everybody around, that the Home Affairs is the department that prepares for internal elections in the South African respect. Dr Buthelezi who is the Minister of Home Affairs and the President of Inkatha Freedom Party is supposed to be the man. Dr Buthelezi is supposed to be then preparing for the elections. You might not believe that the Constitutional Minister, Minister Roelf Meyer, has recommended in the Cabinet that it is his department that is preparing and running the local elections and the Cabinet endorsed that and that makes me suspicious.
POM. The Cabinet voted?
TK. In favour.
POM. In favour of it. On that, how are Cabinet decisions made?
TK. You see we are talking about big people here. Whilst it is not sufficient consensus, silently it shows. Whilst heads are not being counted but you can just feel where the decision is swaying to. So it is the majority rule again.
POM. If I asked you on a scale of one to ten to rank the performance of the government over the last seven months where one is very unsatisfactory and ten is very satisfactory, where would you place the government?
TK. If you asked me what have we done, the answer would be I don't remember what, we are still preparing to do something and as a result we haven't done well at all. I mean we have got nothing to give to the people out there and say, "Here, this is what we have done", and then you can tell me where you rate us. We have not done well.
POM. When we were going around the regions we found a very high element of frustration because power had not been devolved from the central government to the regional assemblies and they could do nothing.
TK. That's true. That is the whole essence of the matter because when we talk about ourselves being in government, we talk about ourselves being government of the people on the ground and the regional governments being our agents. You understand then why the IFP is more frustrated than others because we knew from the beginning that it was going to be federal government, people in developed regions should take charge for their own regions and given as maximum powers as possible. Unfortunately the party that won the election is the party that believes in a centrist power and I think that is the reason why there is this frustration. I think it is still going to go a long way because one cannot just expect them to change overnight. I must anyway agree with them in one respect, that some of their regional leadership now realised for the first time why we were saying federalism. Some are openly saying that Buthelezi has been right all the way, Buthelezi is the leader who is really fighting for the people of South Africa. That is being said by the ANC Premiers. But some of them do not want to acknowledge that openly. They do say they want more powers and yet they don't mean federalism. So whatever they call it we don't mind as long as at the end of the day they've got power to perform and deliver to the people on the ground we will be happy.
POM. This will be one of the big issues I take it in the Constituent Assembly, the state won't be unitary, it won't be federal in the strict sense. It will be something in between or there will be new structures built.
TK. What is that? What can that be called?
POM. I don't know. Call it Buthelezi, the Buthelezi system.
TK. Well maybe the process as it stands can deliver exactly what we are talking about, something in between, but the desire and the aspiration of the Inkatha Freedom Party is for a genuine federalism. Let's put it this way, we only believe that the central government is supposed to be a watchdog at the end of the day to see that there is a balance of power. The reason that it is progressing well is a good example to the one that doesn't prosper well and that's what we think. We don't think that the power should rest with the central government because at the end of the day where's ...? I don't even know what these guys want. I'm not even sure whether it's good today or not. Now we then think that governments that are dealing with people on a day to day basis should be given as maximum power as they can need to run the day to day business. Take it from me we are not going to divert from this one. We'll talk about it as long as we are there until people find it appealing.
POM. With the understanding that the IFP, De Klerk and Mandela made last April when they came into the elections, there was a suggestion, a clause in the agreement that outstanding issues would be subject to foreign mediation, nothing has happened of that.
TK. We have been talking to Buthelezi about it. They are still very much worried about that and Dr Buthelezi has reported to us more than once, and gave us his correspondence with both leaders, Mr Mandela and Mr de Klerk. On the part of Mr de Klerk I must say he has agreed that he is still for the agreement, solemn agreement, and he still thinks that it should be done as quickly as possible. But on the part of the State President he is now dragging feet, it doesn't look like he wants to do that. That was a solemn agreement, that was what made us take part in the elections. Those kind of things, when I say to you that I have growing doubts that the government of national unity might survive through because of that kind of behaviour and attitudes of the government on the part of the ANC.
POM. Do you find any cracks appearing between the ANC, COSATU and the SACP?
TK. Great ones. As I said, people on the ground have not lost the liberation sense, the sense of fighting for liberation. They have not lost it because they are still not free as far as I can define the situation. When they are still staying in the same squatter camp, when there are no indications that in six months or 12 months or 24 months their life will be improved, then they are still in the same dark that the National Party left them in. Then rights of people are still rights of people. The rights that were demanded from the National Party government are still the rights that are not yet in the hands of the people. Now I'm referring to the workers, to people wanting accommodation, houses and things like that. So there is a sharp division between the national civic organisation, SANCO, and the ANC because the ANC wanted to control the running of the houses and the projects and SANCO did not want to be dictated terms by the ANC. I think one would expect that because this civic organisation is supposed to remain the instrument and mouthpiece of the people on the ground to the government and then the ANC government is not happy with that kind of thing. They were happy when the civics were fighting the National Party government, they are not happy that it is fighting them. Of course COSATU, representing the workers, cannot not be on the part of the government. I think the ANC will have to be on its own as the government and deliver because it won't be too long before they run out of tactics, like brushing COSATU and the other organisations. At some stage the brushing will have to stop and real deliveries take place, so that's the kind of situation we have.
POM. What about the role of traditional chiefs in local government structures?
TK. I think chiefs, institutions, we call them Amakosi. Amakosi institutions need to remain above political identities and also that would mean that wherever there would be local councils then the Amakosi's Council will have to be above that and serve as an overseer of the whole process. That's how I'm looking at it. Of course one can expand further if needs be but at the end of the day the short and straightforward answer is it's got to be strengthened rather than weakened.
POM. I want to talk a bit about the RDP. We've heard a lot about the RDP and we've been around the country and done a survey for about two weeks and we always bring up the question of the RDP and to ordinary people they would just look at you with dazed eyes, didn't know what you were talking about. Some regional parliamentarians weren't quite as blank, but nearly so. Some government ministers even within the same province would have different interpretations of what it was all about.
TK. Well it's got to be like that in fact. Let me explain. Reconstruction, our community has got to be reconstructed and by so doing empowering and forcing the culture of being responsible and productive in the communities, culture of self reliance in all communities, culture of self reliance, and determine what is there for the community to do and what is it that needs to be done first and then they, the communities themselves, will have to do it and the government will only need to provide some expertise in order to have the community doing things themselves. Now talking to an IFP person, that has been our position for a long time. As a result what is pertained in the RDP that the ANC is talking about, where the IFP was strong and running in KwaZulu/Natal we have long implemented those things. For example, creating agricultural associations in specific areas for people to help themselves, we have already done that. For example, putting up water to the rural areas, we have already done that. Building roads, we have already done that. Schooling without fees, we have already done that. When the government talks about one year in KwaZulu/Natal the way the IFP was running the government children are getting free education already. So you understand they are a step behind us.
. But I said to you it is a good thing when people have got different interpretations because the RDP for each and every community will be defined according to the needs of that particular community. I make an example, the question of the weather in Johannesburg and PWV will not be the issue so our RDP can go with or without the big rain, but in Orange Free State it's another issue. They do not need this kind of oil, petrol, all the things that we need to run our industries. They need rain, they need manure, they need tractors and they need food for their stock. So you see the definition of the RDP in practice will be completely different so at the end of the day it is about reconstructing the community and inculcating the culture of self-reliance and people finding jobs. In that process it must unfold a situation where people will find jobs. When you talk about making dams for example in the Orange Free State you must talk about dams being made by local people. The government only provides money and expertise and all the labour work and semi-skilled work, if needs be people will be trained to do those things for themselves like in long term projects.
. So that's about the RDP, that's what we have been doing in KwaZulu/Natal for a long time and then in the communities where the IFP was dominating in the PWV where I come from we were doing such kind of things. For example, cleaning up the squatter camps or the hostels, people were doing that when the NGOs were funding it and people were running themselves. You have seen that. And people got money and had to help themselves and bringing a sense of responsibility to the people on a small scale, but that's what I mean and that's how the definition of the RDP will go from one area to another area. What it is coming down to again is that government must give power to the region and give them money and provide them with necessary expertise and skill and of course remain a watchdog and remain accountable, see to it that money is not misused.
POM. How do you rate Mandela's performance?
TK. I don't know. You know you're asking me the question that I answered this morning when I woke up. I said to myself this man seems to be going around the country too much, forgetting what he is supposed to be doing back home. Maybe that's your answer.
POM. Do you think he has been an effective President within the country or that he's been a more effective representative outside the country?
TK. Outside. Let's put it this way, it worries me that Mandela is going out too much and we have got too much back home. I must say that he is the ideal President that this country needs at this juncture because he is able to put the ANC together which can be a chaos if the ANC falters. He is able to compromise some few things to other parties which can be dangerous if there is division within the government of national unity and as a result I am saying he is fine to be the President at the moment. I think the country needs people of his calibre, this country needs those people. But I was saying I am worried by the fact that he is more our Foreign Minister than our President of the country.
POM. If he were to die, he is an old man and could drop dead at any moment, do you think there would be a fight for succession in the ANC?
TK. We talk about that all the time and people talk about it in taxis. People talk about that in our taxis, in our bus ranks, in trains, people talk about it. A friend of mine who comes from North West, Bophuthatswana area, she voted for Mandela I know, she voted for the ANC and she told me as well, we are too friendly to hide such things. And I said to her, "But why do you always come to me for help and yet you did not vote for the IFP you voted for the ANC, why don't you go to them?" And she said to me, "Themba you must understand Mandela commanded a great sense of sympathy. We all felt for him and he is like a father to the nation. That's why I voted for Mandela. I did not vote for the ANC, I voted for Mandela as a person", and she said, "There are so many of us who did that", and she said to me, "It's not that you do not go with taxis as we do, you do not go with buses. People are saying if Mandela wasn't there they wouldn't have voted for the ANC." And we are saying because of the performance of the government under the ANC leadership they hate why they voted for the ANC. If there was any chance they would withdraw their votes. That's what people are saying at the moment and Buthelezi is always referred to, now I'm talking about people, people who will go anywhere, who do not care about political identity, and they are saying that Buthelezi is only one man who has got like a clear leadership vision and that's it.
. So it's just that she was too eloquent that it stays in my mind. I have heard people around saying even the MK, members of the MK said that last night, saying that it is bad, they regret that they went house to house asking people to vote ANC when the ANC is tending to be this kind of a monster to them and they did not go on and say that better Buthelezi, but the fact is that they are not happy. And that lady said to me people don't place Thabo Mbeki anywhere in the list of being President and no-one do they place in as a President. So as far as the ANC is concerned when Mandela is not there, there is no ANC. Of course the internal ANC will decide because there will be a vacuum for the President. Anybody will be a President from the ANC but in terms of performance, well, you call it goodbye. I think it will be coming to the end of the ANC. I don't know, maybe that is wishful thinking.
POM. If it came down to just a contest between Thabo and Cyril?
TK. I don't know. I come from Johannesburg and both guys come from Johannesburg so some of their friends are my friends as well because they always said that Cyril is too selfish. He thinks of himself first and nothing else. If he can't be the President then the country can go to desert. That's bad English? Either he is the President or let everything fall apart. So that's how they described him. Not me. But I also have a feeling he is that kind of a man because he couldn't get Deputy President then he did not want to be a Cabinet minister. Up until the end he had to save face and take the Chairman of the Constitutional Assembly. And that's what people are saying about him. And then to come to Thabo, he does not have the influence that Cyril has within the ANC. I'll give you what people are saying. Except of course that Thabo is a Xhosa and the ANC is a Xhosa dominated organisation, it must give him an advantage and Cyril is a Venda which is not dominating the ANC, which gives him a disadvantage. So you see it becomes a ding dong situation, no clear winner. There's no clear winner right away but at the end of the day both guys they can be the President because there will be a vacuum not because they have got what it takes to be a President.
POM. How about the Truth Commission? How do you feel about that?
TK. I don't know, maybe I'm stupid because what I don't like ...
POM. You don't like it?
TK. Maybe I'm stupid you see. I don't know what it's there for other than witch hunting. We are going to spend a couple of millions of rand putting it together. Let's put it very quick, I don't like it. Let's put it this way, it is meant for those people who are languishing in jails, people who are sitting there and rotting, to come out and say, "Listen here, Mr O'Malley was in fact an accomplice in the crime that I committed, please set me free." Whether or not Mr O'Malley was an accomplice in the matter the man wants to get out, he will do anything that it takes to get out. He can fabricate as much as he can in order to get his freedom. And then it's not like a temple of God where if you feel you are guilty of something you go there along and pray and say, "You know God, I did this please forgive me", and you say, "My Lord I will never do it again", and you have got your conscience, your commitment and you just don't do it because you have declared it with your Lord. It's not like that.
. There is another issue. I think, I'm not sure, maybe I'm wrong, after all I do not know anything about it because I don't like it, it looks like people will be pushed to tell the story and that's bad, that's a violation. But let's put it practically. We have lost thousands of people, thousands. The IFP lost thousands and hundreds of leaders, thousands of followers and thousands of leaders and thousands and thousands of sympathizers and things like that, communities. Personally I have lost people who were like my lieutenants in my leadership, some were like my leaders and their cases were never cleared or maybe one person was charged and released or acquitted at some stage or given some X years in gaol. If somebody then is going to come up and say, "I actually killed your leader", the one whom I invested my future as my leader, will I be happy? I doubt it. Then I know who my enemy is and then the life of the enemy is known, is animate. So I think it is going to rub salt in wounds that are healing.
POM. Just one or two more questions and thank you for the time. The right wing seems to have completely disintegrated, the Conservative Party. Do you think the fact that the Conservative Party stayed out of the elections has meant they have marginalised themselves or do you think that the Freedom Front has really co-opted what remained of the Conservative Party, or do you think they have a role to play in the future?
TK. The Conservative Party? Well in a constructive sense chances are not good. I think the position is not as strong as if they were inside because unlike the IFP these people have been not grass-rooted, well organised on the ground, they had not much roots. They were thrashed and thrashed all over the country and without well organised structures so that would result in them failing to resuscitate themselves. But in a situation where there is violence and chaos they can be dangerous so if this country falls into chaos then they will be extremely dangerous because they can take advantage of that situation. But if the country progresses well then I think that will send them into finally dwindling.
POM. Can you think of any one accomplishment this government achieved which you would be proud of?
TK. Yes, yes. Keeping the enemies together until they know that they have something in common. I have a big friendship with some ANC guys and I find some of them sharp minded, willing to work, willing to listen. I do find some bad, worse, cannot be changed, particularly whites in the ANC, they are more oppressive than blacks. I would say they are more ANC than the ANC should be. I think that alone helps because there are people who in times of trouble I can run and ask for favours on the side of the ANC. You understand then that that alone has some achievement and again if we did not have it I think things would be worse than now. But I do want to be out of the government of national unity, not out of the government itself. I would like to sit there in the parliament and be a genuine and clear opposition party, not to be both.
POM. Can't be.
TK. I think that is the impression of democracy. Anyway if my brothers in the IFP and ANC feel that we can serve this country better in the government of national unity I will work for that, but if it doesn't work the alternative is the proper opposition.
POM. OK Themba. Thank you.