This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.
18 Dec 1990: Thokoza Hostel Residents
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POM. Your name is?
AL. My name is Albert.
POM. Do you live in the building?
AL. Yes I'm living here.
POM. What happened last week then when this attack took place?
AL. It was on Tuesday in the morning, early, at quarter to three. We just heard a hippo and we just wake up and then we saw a hippo get inside.
POM. Sorry, were you asleep at the time?
AL. We were asleep at the time. And then they saw a hippo get inside.
POM. People were coming inside?
AL. Yes and then after we relaxed because we said, "No, it is the police for sure, there are no other people who can drive a hippo."
POM. Did the hippo come in here?
AL. It came inside, right at the Block D, the other block. When it's come in and then we just relaxed after that and then after we relaxed we saw the people come flooding from the hippo and then we heard some shots at that time and then we saw that these are the people that we are fighting with. We thought it's from Phola Park as we are fighting with them and then they started to shoot at us for forty five minutes till half past three, because it was quarter to three to half past three by that time. So we tried to run away, we tried to protect ourselves.
POM. Where would you run if you were here?
AL. We would go out through the windows for asking for help because we are really confused because we saw that's a hippo, so it's a hippo, it's official, these are the police. So now that's why we were confused about that time and then after all we tried to run away. After we run away other people tried to respond, to defend themselves, and then after all that the hippo goes out and stops there right at the gate and then these men go into the hippo and the hippo goes again. That's what happened.
POM. So who do you blame for the attack?
AL. For that attack I really fully blame the police because they used the hippo.
POM. Have there been other attacks on this hostel in the last couple of months? Have there been other attacks?
AL. Other attacks in a couple of months, I cannot blame much the police because they were travelling, they were walking to come here to attack us right in the hostel.
POM. These would be people from Phola Park?
AL. Phola Park.
POM. Would they be supporters of the ANC?
AL. Yes, in fact these people from Phola Park are the supporters of the ANC and the majority of them are Transkeians, Xhosa speaking people. Like here in the hostels the majority of the people here, 90% of the people are Zulu speaking people. Here right in the hostel the majority of the Zulus, most of them are members of Inkatha.
POM. Do you see it as the Xhosa speaking people trying to dominate you and kill you? Why would they be wanting to do that? Do you see these attacks as being a case of where Xhosa speaking people want to kill Zulus?
AL. In fact now it is not exactly politics but it is as if the Xhosa speaking people together with the Zulu speaking people, why I say so
POM. Sorry, could you say that again? I missed it.
AL. I said these things now are as if the Zulus and Xhosas were fighting, not exactly the ANC and Inkatha, but because of that it's because the majority of Zulus are members of Inkatha, the majority of Xhosas are members of the ANC.
POM. But you see it as a fight between the Zulus and the Xhosas?
AL. The fight now is between the Zulu speaking people and Xhosa speaking people. So to support that point again, or the second point is that the Xhosa speaking people from Phola Park they started to raid each and every house right in the township. In fact the people from the township were not affected by this fight because it was the only hostel inmates together with squatter camp people. So now they started to raid right inside the township to ask is this Zulu here? They burn the houses, they are killing, something like that. Is it a Xhosa here? No. Is it a Sotho here? No. Or any other speaking language or any groups?
POM. Nelson Mandela came out here last week and what happened when he came?
AL. In fact when he came here last week, it was on Wednesday, in fact especially for us we were not happy about him because what we believe is that it is due to that that hippo that attacked us. In fact it was not exactly the police but the people inside were Xhosa speaking people as we know them. So what worries us is that maybe it's through his arrangement for that hippo to come here to attack us for his people.
POM. People in this hostel believe that he arranged for the hippo?
AL. Yes, he arranged it, in fact we believe that. Because the first point they said there come other people because we don't know all of us, we cannot know all the people inside the hostel. No, we must take our weapons away, police are going to come tonight to raid us right in the hostel and the very same day when the hippo comes and the people say, sure that's a hippo, so now they come to raid us, to disarm us, so other people they try to throw away their weapons but that hippo by mistake was the Xhosa speaking people to attack us.
X. The other point is that the Station Commander, there is a Police Station around here, nearby, there's a Police Station here, and the Station Commander of this Police Station is a Xhosa man. Now he sent somebody here to this hostel to tell people that they must take away every weapon they have because there will be a raid in the evening and then people threw it away whether it's a stick they throw it away, or a spear they throw it away. I'm not talking about guns because a gun is an unofficial thing in the African people and then people were without anything that they can use for defending themselves. They were disarmed already, they slept thinking that they will be raided at night and when the hippo came in they realised that it is because we were told that the raid is coming in, the policemen will come to raid every person in the hostel. So they didn't know that it is Xhosa people right in the hippo to come and attack them. That is why the name of Mandela was included because on the following day he was here talking to the policemen in the Police Station, the following day our people were being attacked here and he came here during the night, I think it was about seven o'clock. Mandela himself, he came to the Police Station, talked to the policemen there, that night.
POM. And then you were attacked four hours later?
X. Yes. Quarter to three. That is why his name is involved into this attack of Zulu people here because he was here at night. What was he doing at night here? Talking to the policemen? The same people he regards himself as enemies because Mandela regards the policemen as enemies but he was there with them.
POM. Why do you think he would be doing this? Why do you think Mandela would be ordering an attack on you?
AL. In fact we thought that he was trying to tell the police or to organise a hippo to do that job that was happening in the morning.
POM. But why would he want to do that? Do you see him as being your enemy?
AL. In fact we take him as an enemy for us now, right now.
X. And he also regards you as enemies. Mandela regards everyone staying in hostels as an enemy, especially those who are Zulus. This is becoming tribal straight away. Tribal of course, yes.
POM. So now when the ANC has talked about organising defensive units in their townships, are you going to organise yourselves to defend yourselves?
X. Zulus as Zulus or Inkatha have never started organising defensive units but we have heard that the ANC has already done that, that it's organising defensive units. Then we are still standing and waiting to see what's going to happen with those defensive units.
POM. But you reserve the right to organise yourselves to protect yourselves?
X. That in fact is a privilege of every person in the world that he must protect himself from the attackers.
POM. Do you feel fearful when you go to sleep at night that you're going to be attacked again? Does anybody mount a watch, does anybody keep an eye out in case you're going to be attacked in a similar way?
AL. In fact we are not free at night really as we saw the example last week, so we are not free because we do not believe in the police right now by that incident.
POM. So do you keep somebody posted?
AL. No, because of that curfew so we cannot go outside.
POM. You can't go outside after what time?
AL. After nine o'clock.
X. Until four o'clock.
AL. But these people came here at quarter to three. It was surprising us.
POM. But you don't keep anybody on watch?
AL. We cannot go to the gate because in case there are police there.
X. You see policemen near the gate.
AL. So everybody must be in their room by nine o'clock.
POM. Do you have things like radios and televisions?
X. In the hostel? No.
PAT. No electricity.
POM. So you're just going to sit in your room really from nine o'clock in the evening till the following morning. What do the men do? How do you spend your time if you have to go inside at nine o'clock?
AL. Once it's nine o'clock you must go to sleep, that's all, till one o'clock in the morning and really we are not free and we are not happy at all. We are not against the curfew, the curfew is right because it's trying to avoid this unrest but now the police have done this thing we do not believe in the police.
POM. Do you put more trust in the army than in the police?
AL. I think it's just the same.
X. You see in the army there are also Xhosa groups and very few Zulus in the army. The majority are Xhosa people who are supporting their own nation, the Xhosas. That is why many of our people are being shot here because they were using guards, I believe some were of a certain battalion from the government side.
POM. What time do you get up in the morning?
AL. From four o'clock.
POM. And then you have to be at work at what time?
AL. Most of the people are going by six o'clock because you must clock in at seven o'clock, the majority.
POM. And in the evening you get back at about?
AL. They get off at four o'clock, half past four, five o'clock till six.
POM. Do you cook your own meals and look after yourselves?
AL. Yes after we knock off at work we must come and cook ourselves.
POM. Do you have someone who does that or you do it for yourself?
AL. You do it yourself.
POM. Yourself, yes. And where do you come from, KwaZulu?
AL. I am coming from Natal at Estcourt.
POM. Have you got family out there?
AL. Yes I've got family there.
POM. Do you have children there?
AL. Yes.
POM. And you only get home for how many weeks a year?
AL. Roughly it's about a month a year.
POM. Do you find it very hard living here?
AL. In fact it's not hard but now during this unrest it's hard but it's not hard when there's no unrest. We are happy about the hostel.
POM. You're happy with the hostel?
AL. I'm happy with the hostel. In fact there is some problem, we must look after it, like electricity and the cleanness of the hostel, water and so on. That thing is a problem together with the municipality.
POM. Is it the municipality that should supply those?
AL. It is responsible for everything.
POM. What happened?
AL. We pay rent each and every month.
PAT. You pay rent?
AL. Yes to the municipality.
X. So it has a responsibility because these are its properties and it is the municipality who must defend these properties because they belong to it. It must send its own policemen to defend its properties.
POM. That's amazing. It really is.
AL. And especially for this one, it's surprising. I'm sorry because maybe I'm going out of our topic but it is surprising because when we protest about electricity they told us at least we must pay another R20 more in order to install new cables for electricity because the old one is rotten. Then they told us we must pay R20 more and we are paying the rent. In this rent that we are paying is including electricity and water and the cleanness and they ask us to pay more in order for them to buy those cables to install it in here.
POM. How about the people who live outside, on the other side of the street, are they supporters of Inkatha? Are they Zulus?
AL. It's mixed up, it's mixed in the township. Others are supporters of Inkatha, others are supporters of ANC, others PAC, others AZAPO and so on.
POM. I'm talking people just on the opposite side of the street. Did you used to get on with them? Used you to talk to them or would they talk to you?
AL. In fact there is nothing wrong with them, we are free with them, we talk to each other. We take them as brothers and sisters.
POM. Are they afraid too?
X. They are afraid too much.
AL. Yes too much. Because of these people from Phola Park who raided each and every house.
POM. They were driven down the street outside, and then?
AL. And then even here for us we in the hostel we go out just to protect our people from the township who are the Zulus, it's where the Zulus go out to the township to protect our people because they were starting to victimise them. It's a lot of houses which burned down right in the township but all those houses are for the Zulus.
POM. The houses that are burnt?
AL. Are for the Zulus but if you are a member of Inkatha, if they know that Mr so-and-so is a member of Inkatha then they burn down his house. In fact they are fighting with Inkatha together with Zulus, all the Zulus but the Zulus are not all members of Inkatha, others are members of the ANC, but especially those that are burnt are only the members of Inkatha. Others are not joining any political organisation. Now by doing that they have forced all the people to join Inkatha because you can die because they say you are a Zulu, you have got a Zulu card.
POM. When you look to the future of SA what would you want to see? Nelson Mandela as the State President of SA sometime?
AL. Not at all.
POM. You must have grown up hearing of Nelson Mandela. How has he behaved since he came out? Has he disappointed you?
AL. Since he came out he has disappointed me a lot. I was happy when he came out but afterwards I was disappointed because from that day there was never come right here in SA. There is unrest today. On that day when he came out, his supporters they took our cars by force to drive to the stadium where they will welcome him so that was the first step they took. We were forced to do it. They just get in the car. I don't know how I can explain it, even I cannot overdo it.
X. They were using people's cars recklessly. When it is getting broken they do not mind and you could not claim, to who are you going to claim that your car was broken, broken by the members of ANC? You could not do that because once you try to do that you will be burned by the necklace, a new method of killing people which was brought into SA by ANC.
AL. Mrs Mandela.
X. And Mrs Mandela who was just going up and down here at night giving her supporters more weapons because they do not buy weapons. They are getting weapons from Russia, Soviet Union, like they are getting hot cakes, just like that. They are getting as many as possible. They have got boxes and boxes of them. Inkatha has got nowhere to cry for weapons, we are not the fighters. We are a peace-loving people, we are a peaceful organisation, we are working for peaceful SA.
POM. Can we ask some of the other men what they think about what's going on?
. Your name is?
XX. My name is
POM. Could you tell me something about what happened here last week?
XX. I can try to explain about it. Last week the Phola Park residents came here and killed the residents of the hostel here. I don't know what is happening because on Monday night all the members of Phola Park were here, they killed seven people here inside the hostel in Block B and Block D. So after that we tried to protect ourselves to go and fight with these people from Phola Park. The main problem is that the others of these policemen can support these people from Phola Park.
POM. Who do you blame for the attack?
XX. The Xhosas. I can blame the Xhosas for this attack because each and every person here inside of this hostel, nobody can go outside and attack these Xhosas in Phola Park. For all this time during this violent time no-one outside the hostel was being attacked except the supporters of ANC who always came from, who always used to come from the outside and attack the inmates of the hostel of which it shows quite clearly that they are so aggressive, they want to attack people. Even their bodies, those who died, they were found right inside the hostel but imagine how far are they coming from, from as far as Phola Park. Phola Park is far from here.
POM. When Mandela came here the following day, did you want him to visit?
XX. It is true that they chased Mandela here because he only came here after he was being seen at night in the Police Station talking to the policemen at eleven o'clock. The following day the supporters of Mandela came to attack people in the hostel during the night of which it quite shows that he was at the Police Station to plan some means of attacking the hostel.
. And the supporters of Mr Mandela were just roaming on the streets of locations to his township asking any member of Inkatha or a Zulu person if they burn him in the house they used to kill him straight away.
POM. Do you feel protected now or are you fearful of more attacks?
XX. I could not guarantee that I am being protected.
POM. Do you trust the police?
XX. No I don't trust the policemen any more.
POM. What is your opinion of Nelson Mandela?
XX. I hate Mandela as a poison because since he was released from prison the violence has erupted in SA in a very bad way that even the supporters of Mandela were using their cars and some of their cars were broken. A person sitting anywhere in the car, whether it is on top of it, on top of the roof of the car, does not mind whether it is getting broken or whatever, it is because you will never report this thing to anywhere.
POM. What do you think is going to happen in the future?
XX. There is no better future for SA if it is going on like this.
POM. Do you think that there will be peace made between the Xhosas and the Zulus?
XX. I couldn't predict this that there could be any peace.
POM. There can't be any peace?
XX. I do not believe that there will be any peace.
POM. So he believes the violence will continue?
XX. Yes, it looks like it. The supporters of ANC kill anybody who is a Zulu person regardless whether he's a supporter of Inkatha or not. There are so many people here in the hostel who do not support Inkatha but who are being killed because they are Zulus and which means it forces every person here, especially a Zulu person, to belong to Inkatha because it doesn't matter whether he belongs to Inkatha or does not belong to Inkatha because he's going to be killed.
. Like in the township the people who belong to organisations like PAC, AZAPO, ANC, Inkatha, but if you are a Zulu supporter the ANC will kill you straight away because you are a Zulu. They regard you as an enemy because you are a Zulu. . That is why I say I do not see any better future which can guarantee that there will be peace between Inkatha and ANC or between Xhosas and Zulus.
POM. Thank you, thank you very much for talking with us. Is there any other man who might want to add something? Maybe one or more other men just to I'm more interested in who they think is responsible for the violence. Do they think Mandela is personally associated with it and do they see this violence as an attempt by the Xhosas to destroy the Zulu nation?
XXX. The violence is just because of Mandela and his wife. The violence is just as it is now because of Mr Mandela and his wife because since he was released from prison people are dying like flies.
. This is an African accommodation which means since gold was found in Transvaal in 1885 and 1886 the first accommodation of black people who used to come to the mines, there were hostels. Hostels are older than townships so the first accommodation of a black person to come to work on the mines to dig gold was a hostel and they have never heard people saying that a hostel should be demolished. This was heard when Mandela was released, that all hostels should be demolished and the people who are staying in hostels should see for themselves where they are going to stay. That is what they are saying.
. What was the other question that you asked?
POM. Do they see this as an attempt by the Xhosas to destroy the Zulu nation and why would the Xhosas want to do that?
XXX. The aim was to get rid of the Zulu nation, kill all the Zulu people especially those who are loyal to their Zulu king. The other thing is that if Mandela can succeed to demolish the hostels where Zulus are very much strong, in the townships it will be easy for him to get rid of it, to get rid of any Zulu person who is residing in the township.
POM. What Mandela wants is to have the hostels abolished to disperse the Zulus into the townships where they can each be attacked individually?
XXX. Yes, it would be easy for his supporters to attack a Zulu person individually.
POM. How many men stay here? What's this hostel called?
X. This is Thokoza Hostel, Madala Hostel. Plus or minus 12,000.
POM. 12,000? Here?
X. Yes, here, because this is a very big area.
POM. Does anybody have any idea how old the hostel is itself?
XXX. It is as old as 1953.
POM. The people in the Phola Park squatter camp said that the following morning about 1000 Zulus came into Phola Park and began to burn down shacks and things like that. Was there any counter-attack the following day or what happened on that occasion?
X. Although I do not reside here in the hostel but just for a minute let me ask one of those.
XXX. Yes, such a thing happened in this way, not the way they have said but this way. The Phola Park people came to attack the Zulus here in the hostel.
POM. At three o'clock?
XXX. At three o'clock and then the Zulus were defending themselves. When the Xhosa people ran away back to that camp now the Zulus were following them in order to reach where the source of violence is, to get into that source of violence where the violence comes from, especially who was there where they have got all these weapons using them for attacking. Yes, that is why it happened there.
POM. Were the police in Phola Park or was there any security presence there?
XXX. There were no policemen at that time.
POM. So when the media reports, as they have on many occasions, that very often it's some policemen and members of Inkatha who carry out attacks, the police here are regarded as part of the enemy are they?
X. Yes. The media here in SA is working particularly for ANC. I wouldn't mind to tell you that the editors of all these media in SA are full members of the ANC, they are card carrying members of the ANC. So that is why everything they report regarding violence in SA, they are burning Inkatha as Inkatha is working with the policemen, Inkatha is working with SA government, Inkatha is working they use all sorts of words which are in fact they are trying to denigrate Inkatha or criticise Inkatha that people should not join it. That is a very old story of the media because as far as my memory is concerned it just goes back to 1975 when Inkatha was launched, there were papers, media, which were criticising Inkatha that it could not even get to be existing.
POM. Do the men here regard the police as being part of the enemy?
X. Yes. They regard Inkatha as working with the policemen, they regard Inkatha as working with the soldiers.
POM. But the residents of this hostel, do they see the police as their enemies?
X. Yes of course because Mandela was there at eleven o'clock at night talking to the policemen, talking to the Station Commander who is responsible for that Police Station.
POM. Have any news reporters come out here in the last week to talk to individual men about what had happened?
X. The reporters in fact do not talk to the Inkatha members. What they are doing, they just go to the ANC supporters to talk to them and they get the whole thing and then when they come here they say, "What do you say about this violence?" When a man of Inkatha tells that reporter the reporter does not write it, he just listens and all what is going to publication is what the ANC supporters have told him.
POM. But did anyone come out here? Did any reporters actually come into the hostel the following day or after Mandela's visit and go around and talk with hostel dwellers?
X. They only reported that Mandela was blocked to enter into the hostel by the supporters of Inkatha. That's all.
POM. Thank all the men very, very much for sharing their experiences with us. We're very grateful and appreciative.
X. Do you need something or are you satisfied now? Satisfied?
POM. Yes.
X. Because I am here to save you otherwise you told me that you are going to Pretoria tomorrow and the following day you are moving out from this country. That is why I took off my time to come here.
POM. I'm very grateful.
PAT. Will they see their families at Christmas?
X. Just let me ask them. Those who are working are going all on Friday and those who are not working, like those, they will only go on Easter holidays next year. They think that maybe by that time they would have been able to get a little money to pay transport to go down to Zululand.
PAT. What do they do if they don't work during the day?
X. Well they are just staying with their brothers here and getting food and sleeping here. They are waiting that maybe his brother or his friend will come the following day and say I've got a job for you. You can't call a person from Natal to say there's a job. If the white man wants a person he says, "Come with somebody tomorrow to take up this employment." Then he will have to get a young man here next to you to go and give him the job. You can't say, "No, I'm going to tell the people who are going to Natal that they must come with a person the following month." So that's why they are waiting for jobs, any jobs that can come out.
POM. Again, thank you, thank you very much for taking the time.
. How many men live in each unit? In a unit like this?
X. You see I think you can talk about the unit you have come in to see because it's not this is a kitchen and from that side and that side there are beds.
POM. What do they pay a month in rent?
X. R12-50 for the month. That is the rent of one bed. We have counted nine beds that side. You can say R12-50 X 9 and come to this side it's also another nine.
. He can tell you the whole of what happened during that night at about quarter to three in the morning when they were all fast asleep. You see that cow which was burnt? It was burnt and the owner of that cow was killed, he was sleeping with the people inside that room. The Xhosa people killed him. You can look through the windows and see the damage that the Xhosa people came and made here under the instructions of Mr Mandela. You can talk to them.
. They were woken up when they heard a sound saying Zulus come together which was announced by the Xhosa people. When they heard the windows being smashed they realised that it is not the Zulus who said we must come together, it is the enemy which is attacking us because our brothers cannot attack the windows of where we are staying. We woke up that night and looked through the windows where we can be able to see and we know that these are not Zulus because they have got blankets on their bodies. Zulus do not wear blankets. After that we heard shots and we saw them getting our cars and they were using guns even to open the doors and then we realised that these are not our people, these are our attackers coming from the Xhosa section. They were going through the whole block smashing all the windows and killing people who came out of the houses, from the rooms, but they stationed specifically here where they killed many people.
POM. What did he do himself?
X. He had no weapon that night. They were warned the following afternoon that there will be a raid of the policemen, they must hide whatever they have got which is a weapon so they took them all away. They were sleeping without anything to defend themselves.
. Then the Xhosas were going their own way, killing as many people as possible until they went to that hole there where the cars parked, were standing outside waiting for them to take them again. They went through and they entered into another hostel there to attack the Zulus because there was another block of hostel up there.
. The following morning we gathered here to discuss what happened during that night and we took all the bodies of our people from inside and to see the damage all over the hostel. Then the government came, which is the policemen, and they took all the bodies from all the houses and put them all here and the policemen were seeing the bodies here then they took them in their cars to the mortuaries, the government mortuaries. That was the end of the story.
POM. What did they decide to do when they met the following morning? Did they decide to go to Phola Park?
X. We decided to retaliate, to get revenge, because one Zulu person deserves a hundred people.
POM. That's fine. Thank you very much.
X. On that bed, that is where a Zulu person was killed and he was burned down. You could even see the blood there on the floor. It looks like as if he was just killing an ox really. The Zulus were sleeping all over these beds, they were all burned down into ashes. Just imagine if a body could be burned down into ashes. This is the instruction of Mr Mandela.
. If they died on the spot of violence or maybe in the battlefield we can understand if these Zulus died in the battlefield but not dying right in their beds, sleeping down, not doing any wrong thing because a sleeping person is not doing anything wrong. Even the policemen cannot say you are doing wrong by sleeping down but our people were fast asleep, were in the arms of Orpheus when these Xhosa people were attacking them under the instruction of Mr Mandela.
. (I am just asking whether there can be peace among the Zulus and Xhosa people.)
. It seems as if it will not be easy for any peace between the Zulus and Xhosas and it also seems it's very hard for peace between the ANC and Inkatha Freedom Party.
POM. Do they all believe this?
X. They all believe that because of this doing by ANC and the Xhosa people and Mandela himself.
PAT. Do they believe that Mr Buthelezi can bring peace?
X. It is not easy for Chief Buthelezi to bring peace.
. They say they do not just go out from the hostel to attack them where they are staying in Phola Park like that. It is only them who come here to attack them in the hostel, even the bodies of them have been found inside the hostel to show that they are being attacked inside the hostel.
POM. Thank you very much.
. Are these the marks?
X. Yes. They left him thinking that he's dead. This is a bullet, came through there and they used pangas thinking that he's dead.
POM. Did you lose consciousness?
X. No he did not lose consciousness but in fact he was dizzy. The hippos which are used by the soldiers came and took him from the ground to the hospital.
POM. The soldiers came in and took him. That night?
X. Yes. Only one day in hospital then they discharge him. His name is Albert. I want to show the holes of the bullets. They know that if they shoot here the bird is fighting inside. Of course it is that.
POM. Were you in one of these?
XX. No, I'm staying out there.
POM. Were the windows broken?
XX. One of those, I talked to the classmate.
X. to different classes
XX. And the truck also is an old truck.
X. The truck went to a garage for fixing it up until it comes back. And that big kombi, that is an old kombi, it was completely broken, all the windows. It is from the garage now, they take it all off. That is how our people are living.