This resource is hosted by the Nelson Mandela Foundation, but was compiled and authored by Padraig O’Malley. It is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras.
10 Sep 2002: Cajee, Amien
. (First part of recording recorded over)
AC. Now when he finished I said, "Now you take that and make the hole bigger give you more." So he did that and I feel also something from my side I dig also. I said, "But don't leave a sign on the floor, put it in your bucket. If they find it then it's trouble and you'll go on without me." I remember he had a little bit of humour too. I think you had to have some humour of your own.
POM. You have to have humour.
AC. Then until the 9th they transferred me to Pretoria.
POM. But during that time, then you were removed to Pretoria and he was left behind, was he? Was he taken to Pretoria too?
AC. He was taken to Pretoria. Mac Maharaj, myself, Paul Joseph.
AC. Yes, south of Johannesburg. The names go away sometimes. He was at that prison there too.
POM. Now Mac says at that time that he had been trying to commit suicide using egg shells.
AC. He might have done that. I didn't know that. I only know that he cut his blanket into strips and maybe he joined it together and caught it over the window, the frame, not a frame, the bars there on top of the window, quite high, but he didn't manage to get it through. He made a noose.
POM. He couldn't get it through. This was when he was in Marshall Square?
AC. Yes, Marshall Square.
POM. This is when Swanepoel was - ?
AC. Yes, yes, Marshall Square.
POM. This is when Swanepoel was beating him.
AC. Swanepoel and the others.
POM. And that failed. Then just to refresh your memory, he said that they were questioning him about a fingerprint they had found on a printing machine that was at Rivonia.
AC. Could be mine.
POM. And it was his but he said that, because they were trying to tie him to Rivonia and he was saying he used to buy and sell things in the Johannesburg area and that he described the machine to you and would say, when he was asked, that he had "Oh, was that machine such-and-such? Oh I sold that machine to (and he wouldn't give your name) some fellow in Johannesburg." And if ever they asked you about it you'd say, "Oh, I remember buying a machine from some fellow." You know what I mean, that you would create an alibi for him. Do you remember?
AC. That I would deny, I would have denied. But then he went to see a machine, Kitson, you hear of Kitson?
POM. David Kitson.
AC. David Kitson and some other name also.
POM. And he was being tried too, right?
AC. They went to his house and Ruth First took us there, Ruth Slovo in her car. I had to go to the city, to the office, Riebeeck Street. I had to be there eight o'clock. When I came there they just came there. As it happened we went to Kitson's place then he came down going, going, going, I didn't know the place. I only know there was a street and then you had to turn into the street where Kitson was staying.
POM. Now who was with you?
AC. Only myself, Mac and Ruth.
POM. Mac, yourself and Ruth, yes. OK.
AC. Then they turned I saw two African chaps, big chaps and immediately, instantly, I knew they were cops. I always had two chaps here, two angels who would give me information. They saved my life a good few times.
POM. They knew you were in the car with Ruth? David Kitson was going to meet you?
AC. They knew we were going to be there to meet him at his house.
POM. And in front of his house you saw
AC. Not in front of the house. Just this is the street and this is
POM. In a side street?
AC. Yes, side street. Kitson was a few hundred metres from this intersection so when the fellows looked, immediately I see they are cops. So I tell Ruth, "Those are cops, man. That place is being watched. Be careful." She said, "No, man, it might be some fellows looking for their girl friends." I say I know who's a cop and who's not a cop. "I can tell you 100% those fellows are cops."
POM. Sorry, you were saying you were the cleanest prisoner at Marshall Square?
AC. And Pretoria. I used to polish my floors, wash the walls. They used to give me Vim and so on and give me polish for the floor, give me things to do the cleaning.
POM. So you were going around and you see Kitson. You say these chaps are cops and so what does Ruth First do?
AC. I talked to Ruth and she said they must be looking to come and see their girl friends. I said, "No, man, I know what I talk about. I am 200% sure they are cops." The way a person turns round, takes a glimpse at you tells you the whole story. Then in Pretoria I told Mac about this. He wouldn't believe me that they were cops.
POM. But did you go to the house?
AC. Yes, Kitson's place and that machine wasn't working well.
POM. What machine?
AC. The printing machine.
POM. Printing machine, yes.
AC. He told his wife to go away somewhere, there was a little kid, the kid was crying, Amanda the kid's name was Amanda. I took her milk and I fed her with the milk and she was so happy. Children like me.
POM. When you got to Kitson's house you were - ?
AC. We saw the thing in there.
POM. The printing machine.
AC. There was something faulty. I was an expert on the machines and you could see it, you could see a certain fault. I've had a good few printers to check on them, to learn printing.
POM. Did Mac know all about printing?
AC. No he just used to do that machine, cut the blocks, he used that. Then they told me to go to Pieter Byleveld, he was doing some printing and so on. I don't deal with that much, very little. But she was the brain behind the printing, that business.
POM. She was?
AC. The brains.
POM. Who? Ruth?
POM. Pieter Byleveld was the brains behind the printing?
AC. No, his wife.
POM. His wife was?
AC. Stella. Stella Byleveld. Byleveld. She was running the business. Now Byleveld, I think he was taken in and then he turned. He wanted to be a state witness, something like that.
POM. He was a state witness?
AC. He wanted to be.
POM. He wanted to be?
AC. He agreed to be. He must have given them so they released him out.
POM. They let him out.
AC. Yes, let him out but he had to I don't know if he ever came and gave evidence at the Rivonia trial, I don't know.
POM. I want to go back to when you were you being charged along with the others in the Little Rivonia trial?
AC. No, no. I'll tell you why. I was at Marshall Square and they took me there, came to fetch me. "Yutar is looking for you." Percy Yutar, have you heard of him? He died now, a couple of months ago. He was a public prosecutor in the Rivonia trial.
POM. Yes I remember him. He died.
AC. He died. They took me straight to him. I didn't know where I was. I had a little bit of a premonition what is going to happen, why the prosecutor wanted to know me. If he wants to do something he must lay a charge against me, you don't have to make all the fuss. "You are Amien Cajee, yes?" "What can I do for you?" He says, "Look, I'll be back in an hour's time or half an hour's time. I want you to answer certain questions." What else can I tell him? He didn't tell me anything. So he went off and then in the meantime I must go and see the other cops. One was Dirker, he was the stupidest cop.
POM. Can you spell his name?
AC. The first name I don't know, but DIRKER. What qualification? Maybe he was a sergeant and he couldn't go further than that. The first promotion they get is for sergeant.
POM. So he was there too? Why do you call him the stupidest cop?
AC. Stupidist cop, because one of our room mates in Flat 13 Kholvad House was Gani and he came to Gani, "Please I want you to write a letter of complaint. Why don't they want to give me promotion? I gave all these facts so long in the police force, they just ignore me." That's what he said. So he did write whatever he said and he wrote a letter I believe afterwards he did get some promotion, maybe Colonel after Sergeant comes Colonel. I don't know in what order it goes. So he became a Colonel and so on.
POM. So he was in the room?
AC. He was with me, we were room mates in Kholvad House, Flat 13.
POM. What was the advocate's name?
AC. GANI. From Balfour Township, Balfour is a country town.
POM. And Dirker went to him looking for a letter?
AC. Write a letter for him.
POM. Why would he go to Gani?
AC. He came to Gani.
POM. Was Gani an Indian lawyer?
AC. Indian lawyer, yes.
POM. What was Dirker, was Dirker Afrikaans?
AC. Afrikaans, pure Afrikaans.
POM. So why would he come to an Indian lawyer looking for a letter of recommendation?
AC. Dirker used to know Gani because he used to raid the place so many times. I was raided, they took a lot of my things. I tried to look for them, I can't find them, they must be somewhere in the storeroom at the back. When we moved here, things all mixed, some photographs. I'll get them for you for the future.
POM. The prosecutor goes away and says I'll be back in an hour.
POM. Yes. Does he come back?
AC. He came back. What did he tell me? He said, "I'll need evidence from you." I said, "No dice. You won't get it from me." Straightaway. And I say, "Who do you think you are to tell me what to do? Who are you to tell me? I don't know you, you don't know me. What right have you got to ask me?" I say, "You want to lay a charge against me? If I've committed any crime you've got every right to go and lay a charge against me and prosecute me but remember this, don't ever tell me to do something that you want me to do. I'll never do it. I won't be blackmailed. You are trying to blackmail me." Straightaway. I said, "I'm not a ja baas, yes boss, type." The Afrikaners liked to be called boss.
POM. Were you speaking to him in Afrikaans?
AC. No speaking in English. He told the cop who was in charge, Swanepoel, "Take him away, he's very cheeky." And they asked me to go and see another cop who used to come to check me every night, Van Tonder, if anybody comes to me when I was banned. Van Tonder they tell me I must go and see, Dirker tells me to go to Van Tonder in his office, he wants some details from me. So I say, "No, I won't give any details." So he tells me there was another, Swart I forget his name, he was quite big, many security chaps working there.
POM. Who is the chap who had many people working under him?
AC. I forget his name. He was quite a big shot there. I'll have to ask Abader the name later on.
POM. So they never - ?
AC. So this chap tells me there's an application from the Security Branch that you must be banned. I didn't like to hear that, it's a hell of a handicap to do my work, political work. I shook my head, I said took me there and I gave him the details. Simple, simple they ask you who is your doctor? Who lives with you? They know who lives with me, my wife and Who's your doctor and what religion are you. Simple things you know. Daily routine. So I gave them that. They didn't ban me immediately but afterwards they banned me.
POM. For five years.
AC. Five years.
POM. But after you were seen by Yutar, when you were taken back to your cell after you were seen by the Public Prosecutor what happened then? We're talking about two things, we're talking about were you ever charged with the others in the Little Rivonia trial?
AC. The Little Rivonia trial was Mac and them?
POM. Yes. Were you tried in that?
AC. No they didn't charge me.
POM. Why did they let you go?
AC. That's the main thing. Afrikaans saved me. When they took me for questioning the place was full of the whole Security Branch of Johannesburg, Transvaal, they were all there, Swanepoel and Tiny Venter and all these. Tiny Venter and there was a Coetzee from they used to call it Jan Smuts, people go to the Magistrate's Court there for committing any crime at the airport.
POM. So you were taken there.
AC. It's a handicap to be a short man.
POM. It can also be useful. You don't have to duck.
AC. I'll tell you stories how I was attacked by people all my school life in Johannesburg. This F W de Klerk he must have also come under my fists. I used to go past the school where they were going, there used to be an Afrikaans school and from our school we had to go past that school to the hostel where I was staying and these fellows used to come, sometimes 20, 25, sometimes 30, sometimes 40 Afrikaners, tough guys, they used to tackle us and there were three of us all my size, thin, and they'd come and attack us. We used to catch hold, the three of us got hold of one chap, the other chaps who were with us they ran away and we are only three now. One blow down, one blow down. Sometimes we knock two down, sometimes three down, sometimes one down. Once we knock a person down they run away. A whole lot of these fights, 20, 30, 40.
POM. Getting back to why did they not charge you along with the others? You said you were sitting in this room and it's full of
AC. That's the main thing, that's where the Afrikaans comes in. When they took me for questioning to a place which was full of these cops, now this fellow who was knocking Mac and everybody
AC. Hit him, gave him shocks and everything.
POM. Did they give you shocks? No, no, they gave Mac shocks.
AC. Mac. They were doing a lot of things. why didn't you give my name, why do you take the shocks? He came, while I'm talking, while the police were talking to me this fellow comes rushing to me, that fellow who had knocked Mac, I forget his name, I'll have to ask Mac what was that chap, he used to call him Tiger or something like that.
AC. You must ask Mac. Tall young chap, but I tamed them so that they became civilised.
POM. So he came rushing at you? So, are you going to take out your you said wait a minute.
AC. I said 1954.
POM. Or 1964?
POM. When you are being questioned and this guy is rushing at you.
AC. Mac will confirm this. You must ask him certain things that you want to know. I say I can do without food but I can't do without teeth. I can do without food, I can't do without my teeth.
POM. Did you say that in Afrikaans?
AC. He says, "I can do without teeth." You want to write it?
POM. No. It's OK.
AC. So he says, "Ja, the kaffirs, the Jews, why do you work with the kaffirs, why do you work with the Jews, why do you work with the communists", and a lot of other things that he mentioned. I said, "Wait a bit, wait a bit, don't be in a hurry, listen to me." I say I wasn't fighting only, I wasn't working with these people, I was working I grew up with Afrikaners, the poor whites. And he stood back. The poor whites went through hell, man, worse than the Africans. That was the British idea. They must be kept back and they must be kept in ignorance. They could never go forward in the workplace and so on. You must have heard of it.
POM. Yes I have. So you said this to him?
AC. Yes. So I said, "I work with the poor whites, I grew up with them and I was fighting for them also because they used to live you say kaffirs, I say boeres, boeres poor as kaffir's dog, the poorest kaffir in SA his dog used to live better than the poor whites." "Wait a bit, wait a bit", he says, "What he's saying is God's truth, God's truth." I could tell you more. Those houses you people used to live in were the houses I'll tell them whether they were houses or not. They said they used to put all old tree trunks as a foundation of the house and they used to put hessian bags right round. For the roof they used to get four gallon tins of paraffin and they used to cut them up and make pieces of sheets, take wires and put them together and make a roof out of that to keep the water away. And the hessian bag, what can the hessian bag do? Nothing. Bags they put the mealies in, flour and so on.
POM. So who, the Africans used to make houses like this?
AC. No, no, the whites.
POM. The whites did?
AC. Africans made houses out of mud. They used to buy corrugated iron, second hand and so on.
POM. So the poor African was better at making a house than the poor Afrikaner, poor white?
AC. Much better than the poor whites. Their houses were like a palace compared to the poor whites. You can ask any poor white now, if you do know some of them they'll tell you.
POM. So you told them this?
AC. And they never touched me, not even like this, not a bit. They knew that I had very strong hair. The pulled my hair just for a joke. I said, "You hold my hair", one of them, and I tell the other two, "Pull me, you pull me this side, let them pull me, hold my hair and you do that." They did that a little bit, they think the hair will come off.
POM. So when they took you to so they never beat you up?
AC. They never touched me. I told you, the only thing was they used to play with me, they used to pull my hair.
POM. And do you think that's all because you knew Afrikaans?
POM. And you think it's because you grew up with poor whites?
AC. Yes. This Swanepoel fellow was a very stupid fellow. The Red Russian.
POM. The Red Russian? Swanepoel?
AC. They used to call him that, Swanepoel.
POM. He was stupid?
AC. Very stupid.
POM. Why was he very stupid.
AC. He didn't know much. He didn't know how to talk to a person. He used to come to false conclusions about you. If you don't know how to talk to him you would shame him. After he gave me a nickname, 'Vula Coolie'. Coolie you know they call the Indians coolie.
POM. How do you spell that.
AC. COO I think it's KOELIE, the Afrikaans Boere Koelie, Afrikaner Coolie.
POM. That's what the prisoners used to call him.
AC. Yes, Swanepoel used to call me that.
POM. Oh he used to call you that? OK.
AC. Sometimes we'd meet on the street, he'd come and shake hands, "Hello you Boere Koelie, hoe gaan dit met jou?" How are you Boere Koelie.
POM. Swanepoel would do that to you?
AC. Yes. Then the others are walking with him they will also come and greet me.
POM. Like that? But if he was such a cruel
AC. Cruel chap. But he became friends with me just because of the Afrikaans.
POM. So they took you to Pretoria?
AC. Pretoria, no, Jo'burg court, Supreme Court on 30 November 1963.
POM. What are you talking about now? Are you talking about why did you go to court on that date?
AC. They wanted me to give evidence and the prosecutor was the Attorney-General of the Transvaal then. Now you've got this Gauteng and all these things mixed up. Transvaal was the whole of this Northern Province, Mpumalanga.
POM. So they still called you as a witness, did they?
POM. But did you simply - ?
AC. No, now the court orderly, "What language will you speak?" I say I speak any language that you want. He said, "All right, praat Afrikaans", all right, speak Afrikaans. I say, "Ja, right", right. And he says, "Put your right hand up. Say I'll tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth." Oh, wag 'n bietjie, wait a bit. I refused to give evidence. The court was choc-a-bloc full, the upstairs it was full, full, full. Mostly white listeners. I refused to say that. Everybody got up and all with one voice, "Oh, Oh", cheering me until the judge had knocked like that. Then the prosecutor gets up, he was the Attorney General of the Transvaal. Now he's talking to me in English now. I said I just don't want to give evidence against any of these people, I refuse to give and you won't force me to. "Do you know what the consequences are?" I say the consequences are you'll charge me for not giving evidence, you can charge me, I'll get two to three years and for not giving evidence altogether I stand a chance to get 15 16 years, 18 years I'll go to jail, straight away like that. Then the Senior Prosecutor, Senior Advocate, Defence Advocate, he tells me the same thing, I told him the same, I wouldn't listen. Two of them came together, they told the judge, "Will you recuse yourself for about half an hour? We'll talk to him." So the judge got up and he went away. Then they started to call me. The next thing the orderly came, "They want you there", in front of the seven or eight accused, Wilton Mkwayi and Mac. Mac was the least because he got nine years only.
POM. Twelve wasn't it?
AC. No. Mac.
POM. Mac got twelve years. H spent 12 years on Robben Island.
AC. Yes 12 years.
POM. But Wilton and Kitson they were
AC. Wilton got life, Kitson 20 years. Chiba was 18 years and Matthews 16 years and Mac 12 years. So the judge comes back and, look, no, first I did want to give then Joel Joffe, no first was the senior advocate then this Greek chap, the advocate, he appeared for many of the people.
POM. I'll get his name.
AC. The name will come just now. He tells them I was within that city
POM. He tells who?
AC. He tells and these people. He was doing law, I was doing medicine. I never finished my medicine. In protest I left the university.
POM. This is Bram Fischer is it?
AC. No, no.
POM. This is the Chief Advocate?
AC. He was serving already a life sentence, Bram Fischer. He was serving a life sentence already for this Rivonia trial.
POM. OK. So I'll get this man's name from Mac. He was the Chief Advocate? For the defence?
AC. Hare, H A R E. What his first name is I don't know. And Bizos, George Bizos.
POM. And you went to university with Hare?
AC. With George Bizos. He was doing law and I was doing medicine.
POM. So what does he say to you?
AC. He told me the same thing, what the prosecutor said and what Hare said. I still refused. Then another chap, great chap, Joel Joffe you know him?
POM. No. Mac mentioned him.
AC. A great guy, he relinquished his advocateship to become an instructing attorney for the Rivonia trial and he became - I only had an hour and a half or two the night they came to take me in, detain me. That afternoon they called me he wanted to give me, what do they call it, power from Kathrada, Kathy. That's they want to put me in charge of all his things and represent him for his possessions and all those things. When he finished that I said, "Mr Joffe, can you do me one favour?" "What?" I said, "I want to put Kathy's name, his family and myself and my family are very close together, were neighbours and I worked with Kathy and the main, most important thing we did together I don't like to speak about and for the sake of his family I want the family to know that I want was his name also there." So he says alright and he added Kathy's name and I said, "Another thing, if I go to jail I will need my wife to settle a lot of things for me, can you put her name also at the bottom?" So he put her name. I didn't want to be selfish and he handed that thing over to him, to his family.
POM. Over to Kathy's family?
AC. Yes. In fact him and I in the movement you would have seen real downfall of the black people, oppressed people. Not the black people, oppressed people, religiously and every way. You would have lived worse than dogs and then we fought like hell. You must ask him one day what I'm telling you, you must remember this, he will tell you, Kathy.
POM. When I see Kathy, yes. Now who are we talking about? Who fought like hell?
AC. Me and him.
POM. You were together?
AC. Both together. Two days and a night, how many 36 hours. Now we used not to sleep for the 36 hours getting people ready, getting people ready for defiance campaign. I used to take most of the instructions from him because that was official, the ANC became allied to the Transvaal Indian Congress, the SA Indian Congress with Monty Naicker in Durban, Dr Dadoo here and Cachalia was there, he was also half-hearted. You've heard of Yusuf Cachalia?
POM. Is he alive?
AC. No he died in 1981 or 1982. He was married to Amina Cachalia. You've heard of her? The papers, it was in that Mandela is Amina Cachalia's boyfriend. You must have seen that in the papers? It was a lot in the paper. She was also after him all the time.
POM. She was?
AC. I used to work with her. She was a very good activist. I got her married to Yusuf Cachalia, myself and Mrs Pahad. You know Essop Pahad and Aziz? Their mother. I used to board at their place at one time.
POM. You used to board at Essop Pahad's mother's place? So did you know him when he was growing up?
AC. Yes he was a little boy when they came from India. The other brothers were born here.
POM. Where was Essop born?
AC. Essop was born in no, Ismail was born in India. Essop was born here.
POM. Who was born in India?
AC. Ismail, the eldest. He died.
POM. He died of? Oh just some years ago. There were four brothers.
AC. Five brothers.
POM. Five and there are two of them who are now in government.
AC. The other one is in a municipality. You get Ismail, Essop, Aziz, Naseem and Junaid. Junaid is in the City Council, he's head of the City Council.
POM. Of the City Council in?
AC. In Jo'burg.
POM. He is? OK. How is that spelt?
AC. J U N A I D. Junaid Pahad. That's the baby boy of the brothers.
POM. So you used to board with the mother?
AC. Mother and father. These boys were more for than anything else, the whole lot of them except Junaid. Junaid was a little baby boy, he was born in 1945.
POM. So did you know Essop before he went into exile?
AC. Yes. I was on 29 November 1963.
POM. That's when Kennedy died, 1963. He died on 23rd November. You got banned on 26th.
AC. 26th. Kennedy died, yes. He did come to see me.
POM. Essop did?
AC. In Marshall Square.
POM. Oh, Essop came to see you in Marshall Square.
AC. In my cell. He asked the warder to bring him there and I shouted at him because the night before I was taken in his mother called me, Essop's mother called me at her house, not very far from here.
POM. Oh, his mother is still living here?
AC. A block away from Kholvad House.
POM. Sorry what's the name of the House? Corwell? Cromwell?
AC. No, the other one is Orient House.
POM. And that's just near here?
AC. Near to Kholvad House, flat 30, Kathrada's flat. I was staying in Kathrada's flat. I looked after it for many years.
POM. You looked after?
AC. Kathrada's flat for 25 years.
POM. For 25 years.
AC. I got those things on paper, I'll have to look for those papers.
POM. What were you saying about Essop's mother, Pahad's mother?
POM. Amina. Is she still alive?
AC. No, no she died. She died in India.
POM. She died in India?
AC. Yes. Old man Pahad died this year.
POM. Was he in India too? Did he go back to India too?
AC. He did go back yes, he did go back for some time but then he came back here when SA got freedom. His wife died while he was in exile.
POM. While Essop was in exile?
AC. Essop was in exile, he went into exile on 29 November 1963. You're getting somewhere now?
POM. Let me see if I get this. You looked after Kathy's flat for 25 years?
AC. I looked after Kathy's flat, yes.
POM. Then you had the Pahads and you boarded there.
AC. Quite a few years, many years.
POM. When you were at Medical School or afterwards?
AC. I was at Medical School, yes.
POM. Then you had Indres Naidoo.
AC. I used to go and visit him in Doornfontein. He used to live in Doornfontein.
POM. Were you related there or you just knew him?
AC. I knew him. The family they sacrificed a lot, the whole family they sacrificed. The sisters, Emma was there. I told you, she was the one who came to tell me about Meg being arrested. She's still a very good person.
POM. That's R U M ?
AC. And the elder sister, she was banned many times and arrested many times.
POM. So when did you first meet Mac?
AC. When I met him first? It was, I'll have to think.
POM. He came back from training in 1963. Then he was arrested in 1964. So when did you know him that's the time he was here with Tim?
AC. Yes, that's right. I used to work with Tim, Tim used to help him with the printing. A real good person.
POM. You must put me in touch with her. I want to talk well I want to approach her. She might not want to say anything but I would like to see whether she would because she did a lot for Mac, she sacrificed a lot for Mac.
AC. A lot for Mac, only she was barren or something like that. No children.
POM. She was barren?
AC. Yes. She had two or three brothers who were advocates. I don't know if they are still alive. You'll have to ask.
POM. Sorry ask who?
AC. Babla's wife, the one who was killed by Swanepoel, thrown down.
POM. Who was killed by Swanepoel?
AC. Babla Saloojee. Call him BABLA. He was a very brave chap. He had some trouble with his lungs.
POM. He was thrown down?
AC. Seventh floor.
POM. Seventh floor of Marshall Square or Pretoria?
AC. Not Marshall Square, it was Security Branch, opposite Carlton Centre. He was a very good man.
POM. How did you learn that, that he was thrown down from the 7th floor?
AC. It was in the papers.
POM. In the papers, that he was thrown down? The papers said?
AC. Some African youngsters saw the man being thrown.
POM. And what happened to Swanepoel?
AC. Nothing. There was a killing machine.
POM. And his wife is? What's her name?
AC. R O K A Y A, Rokaya.
POM. So she would know where Tim is would she? Would she know how to get hold of Tim?
AC. Maybe. Must I phone her now?
POM. Why don't you try and ask her does she know how to? This is which now? Billy?
AC. Billy Nair.
POM. I know Billy. He was in Vula and he's now in Cape Town. He's an MP.
AC. How will you get hold of his number? You'll be able to get hold of him?
POM. Why don't you ring him? What number do you have? Maybe you have a different number for him?
AC. I have the Durban one.
POM. I don't have the Durban one. The Durban one is?
AC. I don't know. I've got it somewhere I'm sure. Sometimes I write it under Billy or -
POM. This is NAIR right?